An Aes Sedai queen in Andor

[David Selig]

Actually, it's the other way around.

Andor needed a queen, but she refused to go to Caemlyn, and went to find the Bowl of the Winds instead(someone else could have gone instead).

 

Elayne had to go, her and Nyaneve were the only two involved with the "need" search in Tar. If you recall Nynaeve was wrong about the details of the house in which it was hidden so who knows if they would have even found it had she not. In addition she is far more accomplished than any other AS at working the weather.

 

I think it was admirable that she put the needs of the world before her political aspirations. As LazyMonk said her inner thoughts show how important her country is and the pressure she feels in living up to the great Andoran Queens. There maybe a problem with some Queens as AS but not this one.

Plus finding and using the Bowl wasn't something which benefited only or even mostly the White Tower, it was crucial for the whole world, including Andor. The Andoran farmers were probably much worse hit by the drought than the Aes Sedai who don't have crops to tend to and stuff like that. So even if Elayne was wrong to go searching for the Bowl (which I don't think she was, since several months more of this drought and she wouldn't have had many subjects left to be Queen of)), it wasn't because she chose working for the Tower instead of Andor. I am pretty sure most Andorans cared far more about the drought than who's Queen in Caemlyn anyway.

 

I am pretty sure Elayne has no intention to let Tar Valon dictate how she runs Andor and would refuse an order to that effect from Egwene or the Hall. I doubt the Amyrlin and the Hall would'be quite stupid to issue such an order anyway, since they surely know that no Aes Sedai Queen would last long on her throne if she's seen to be a puppet of the Tower and they run the risk of the Queen deciding to break her ties with the Tower instead of obeying, especially now when the Aes Sedai aren't the only game in town when it comes to channelling.

[Xcorpyo001]

Actually, it's the other way around.

Andor needed a queen, but she refused to go to Caemlyn, and went to find the Bowl of the Winds instead(someone else could have gone instead).

 

Elayne had to go, her and Nyaneve were the only two involved with the "need" search in Tar. If you recall Nynaeve was wrong about the details of the house in which it was hidden so who knows if they would have even found it had she not. In addition she is far more accomplished than any other AS at working the weather.

 

I think it was admirable that she put the needs of the world before her political aspirations. As LazyMonk said her inner thoughts show how important her country is and the pressure she feels in living up to the great Andoran Queens. There maybe a problem with some Queens as AS but not this one.

 

 

Nyn could have searched by herself. Her accomplishments in weather control improved on her way there, helped by a windfinder. But if there was no Elayne, Mat would also be out of the picture. But Nynaeve could have been scooped by the Kin even so, and Rand could have sent Mat to help Nynaeve, if he was to meet Tuon. So it could have been done without her.

 

And who decides if the needs of the world will always be greater than the needs of her people?

For example, Egwene needs her to stand by her side against Rand. If they find out about the Trolloc raid on Caemlyn, but Egwene decides that staying there and opposing Rand(thus saving the world from the DO escaping, in her opinion) is more important than losing a single city, what will Elayne chose?!?

[Suttree]

Nyn could have searched by herself.

 

As I mentioned before she was wrong about what the house looked like. Without Elayne being right about the # of stories they wouldn't have found it. Plus as others have said without fixing the weather Andor would have been finished soon any way.

 

As for your hypothetical now that she is actually Queen it's fairly obvious she would not bow to Eggy(who also as David said wouldn't force her to choose) and the WT. All of Elayne's internal thoughts show how dedicated she is to being a great Queen and make clear the responsibility she feels towards Andor.

[Never]

Elayne is dedicated and all, but are you sure she could stand up to Egwene?

 

Remember that Siuan, who is supposedly not as imposing as Egwene, nailed poor Bryne to a door, and I would say Bryne has more of that.. stability-thing. I am not completely sure how to phrase this, I hope you understand my meaning. If not, I will give it another try.

[David Selig]

PoD, Ch. 20

 

Necessary and right, though; when she sat on the Lion Throne, she would still be Aes Sedai, and subject to the laws and rules and customs of Aes Sedai. Not for Andor — she would not give her land to the White Tower — but for herself.

That quote is clear - Elayne has no intention to let the Tower rule Andor through her.

[Never]

I'm not questioning her intention, I'm questioning her ability. After all, Egwene is female God in WoT.

[Xcorpyo001]

Nyn could have searched by herself.

 

As I mentioned before she was wrong about what the house looked like. Without Elayne being right about the # of stories they wouldn't have found it. Plus as others have said without fixing the weather Andor would have been finished soon any way.

 

As for your hypothetical now that she is actually Queen it's fairly obvious she would not bow to Eggy(who also as David said wouldn't force her to choose) and the WT. All of Elayne's internal thoughts show how dedicated she is to being a great Queen and make clear the responsibility she feels towards Andor.

 

 

It was the Kin who let them to their secret stash. They didn't found the building by themselves.

THe WO had a dream about the bowl, but they didn't knew how strong it actually was until they found it and had that talk with the AM.

They didn't knew how to use it, how powerful it was, what was its range, etc. With the little amount of info they had about the artifact at that time, it wasn't imperative for Elayne to be in that search party.

 

You do realize that at the end of ToM, Egwene is waiting for Elayne to come and kneel at her feet and kiss her ring. She also believe that she'll agree with her completely. And until now, she managed to make everybody come to agree with her, usually by force or subterfuge.

She'll definitively use the Amyrlin/AS card with her....we just have to see if Elayne will manage to make her stand or bend like everybody else to her super ta'veren abilities.

[David Selig]

All monarchs in the Westland kiss Amyrlin's ring when they meet with her, that's Randland's protocol. Doesn't mean they have to obey the Amyrlin.

[Suttree]

Nyn could have searched by herself.

 

As I mentioned before she was wrong about what the house looked like. Without Elayne being right about the # of stories they wouldn't have found it. Plus as others have said without fixing the weather Andor would have been finished soon any way.

 

As for your hypothetical now that she is actually Queen it's fairly obvious she would not bow to Eggy(who also as David said wouldn't force her to choose) and the WT. All of Elayne's internal thoughts show how dedicated she is to being a great Queen and make clear the responsibility she feels towards Andor.

 

 

It was the Kin who let them to their secret stash. They didn't found the building by themselves.

THe WO had a dream about the bowl, but they didn't knew how strong it actually was until they found it and had that talk with the AM.

They didn't knew how to use it, how powerful it was, what was its range, etc. With the little amount of info they had about the artifact at that time, it wasn't imperative for Elayne to be in that search party.

 

Elayne was the one who was right about the building having six stories and described it to the Kin...

 

aCoS

Reanne blushed a sunset. "We've never touched them, Elayne Sedai. I don't know why they were gathered. I've never heard of this Bowl of the Winds, but there is a store-room such as you describe"

 

She was an integral part of finding and using it, absolutely ludicrous to say she didn't need to be there and even more so using it as an example of why there will be issues between here being an AS and Queen of Andor.

[Xcorpyo001]

 

Elayne was the one who was right about the building having six stories and described it to the Kin...

 

aCoS

Reanne blushed a sunset. "We've never touched them, Elayne Sedai. I don't know why they were gathered. I've never heard of this Bowl of the Winds, but there is a store-room such as you describe"

 

She was an integral part of finding and using it, absolutely ludicrous to say she didn't need to be there and even more so using it as an example of why there will be issues between here being an AS and Queen of Andor.

 

 

Hmmm, I'm sure the Kin had thousands secret stashes with super powerful relics from the AoL in that area of the city, so without an exact description of the building it would have taken months to look in all of them...or maybe not.

Anyway, I stand by my first post: she had to chose between her duty as a queen an an mission for WT with not much Intel or a clear idea of the power, range, way to use a certain artifact, not to mention specific location, and chose the second.

And if she's faced with a similar decision(even if it's from Egwene's perspective), she'll probably chose the same way.

And this was only one of the examples I used. I think those are more specific, and although less important, she had to do them anyway.

[Suttree]

 

Elayne was the one who was right about the building having six stories and described it to the Kin...

 

aCoS

Reanne blushed a sunset. "We've never touched them, Elayne Sedai. I don't know why they were gathered. I've never heard of this Bowl of the Winds, but there is a store-room such as you describe"

 

She was an integral part of finding and using it, absolutely ludicrous to say she didn't need to be there and even more so using it as an example of why there will be issues between here being an AS and Queen of Andor.

 

 

Hmmm, I'm sure the Kin had thousands secret stashes with super powerful relics from the AoL in that area of the city, so without an exact description of the building it would have taken months to look in all of them...or maybe not.

Anyway, I stand by my first post: she had to chose between her duty as a queen an an mission for WT with not much Intel or a clear idea of the power, range, way to use a certain artifact, not to mention specific location, and chose the second.

And if she's faced with a similar decision(even if it's from Egwene's perspective), she'll probably chose the same way.

And this was only one of the examples I used. I think those are more specific, and although less important, she had to do them anyway.

 

Events had to play out in a certain way. You yourself admitted without Mat they would not have found it and Birgitte was the one who smoothed it over. Nynaeve would never have consented to work with him alone. They were the two who used "need" and Elayne was the one who had the right of what the building looked like. She convinced Nynaeve to even find the kin in the first place instead of just leaving Mat's hotel. Be sarcastic all you want because you certainly don't have any basis in fact for your opinion.

 

As for her duty as David and I both said fixing the weather certainly falls under helping her realm as well. Food was scarce and time was very short, in saving the world she also saved her realm. Nevertheless making a decision as Daughter Heir is far different than once you are Queen. As a Queen the text is quite clear on what she will do...

 

PoD, Ch. 20

 

Necessary and right, though; when she sat on the Lion Throne, she would still be Aes Sedai, and subject to the laws and rules and customs of Aes Sedai. Not for Andor — she would not give her land to the White Tower — but for herself.

[David Selig]

I really don't see how the search for the Bowl of the wind can be construed as Elayne choosing loyalty towards the WT instead of towards Andor. No Aes Sedai asked Elayne to go on that search, in fact they weren't letting her go to Ebou Dar at first and later Egwene only let her go there because Elayne asked her to. And as i said before, ending the drought ASAP was a lot more important for Andor than for the Aes Sedai given that the vast majority of Andor's population are farmers.

[Xcorpyo001]

 

Events had to play out in a certain way. You yourself admitted without Mat they would not have found it and Birgitte was the one who smoothed it over. Nynaeve would never have consented to work with him alone. They were the two who used "need" and Elayne was the one who had the right of what the building looked like. She convinced Nynaeve to even find the kin in the first place instead of just leaving Mat's hotel. Be sarcastic all you want because you certainly don't have any basis in fact for your opinion.

 

As for her duty as David and I both said fixing the weather certainly falls under helping her realm as well. Food was scarce and time was very short, in saving the world she also saved her realm. Nevertheless making a decision as Daughter Heir is far different than once you are Queen. As a Queen the text is quite clear on what she will do...

 

PoD, Ch. 20

 

Necessary and right, though; when she sat on the Lion Throne, she would still be Aes Sedai, and subject to the laws and rules and customs of Aes Sedai. Not for Andor — she would not give her land to the White Tower — but for herself.

 

 

I'm sorry about the 1000 stashes part. It was meant more like a joke, but maybe I could have handled it better.

Mostly it's a feeling I have concerning those arcs/books.

For example Mat, Perrin and Rand split up and everybody does something he should do.

I thought that after going to Salidar, she should be part of the delegation to Caemlyn or go there as a queen.

But she spends the next book looking for a bowl, avoiding Mat, and traveling with the Circus(the circus, for Creator's sake). While the high lords kill each other, plot to take the thrones, and Rand is stuck there trying to jungle things and survive multiple assassination attempts.

She could have smooth things over with Rand.

The bowl comes second, when she is denied her right to go as daughter-heir, and the only other thing she could do is train or do some knitting in Salidar.

 

You all seem to forget the real reasons she wasn't allow to go to Caemlyn.

Elayne almost begged them to let her go, or accompany the Salidar delegation, but she was denied by Siuan, Leane(not even AS anymore) and the Sitters because they thought Rand will use her to take control of both Caemlyn and Cairhien.

Which was total BS, because he already controlled those regions.

And since Morgase changed the law by naming Rahvin king, he could name himself king, especially after he found out that his mother was before Morgase in line to the throne. That would have drive the lesson home for those AS. But since he's a good guy, he helped Elayne.

Of course, she still thinks she did it without Rand's help, which is funny. I wonder how would have managed to clear the city and the entire region of tens of thousands Aiel and Bashere's legions without Rand's say so, but a girl has to have her dreams.

 

Only after she was denied access to her rightful decision for a stupid reason she looked up something else to do(read-find bowl).

She could just visit Nynaeve in a dream to give her info/help in the search or try Traveling when she had a free window in Caemlyn.

 

If she was in Caemlyn from that part, he could have handle things faster, Rand would have been free to deal with Sammael&co, Nynaeve could have used other people to find the Bowl, and the series would have be shorter for a book or two. Instead, we see Elayne doing acrobatics for several chapters while Rand is surrounded by AS because he has to be present in Cairhien or Caemlin to be sure nobody takes over the thrones.

 

I will look for some quotes if you forgot that part, but I don't think that is the case.

While she has superiors in the WT, she will have to follow their orders first, as she had to do in Salidar. Oh, and those were rebel AS, without even an Amyrlin.

Found one:

"...Wheter my mother is alive or not, my place is in Caemlyn now. I am Daughter-Heir."

Siuan's loud snort made Nynaeve jump. "You've been Accepted long enough to know better."

...

Elayne's nose wrinkled - she knew very well that if she had already been on the Lion Throne, the AS still would have gotten away for training, by asking if possible, by stuffing her into a barrel if necessary-...

 

She will always have duties to the WT, even if now she's semi-AS(without the Oaths and the actual test), and those will always come first. At least from an AS point of view. So unless they can't make some big changes, she'll have to chose one or the other, or put Egvene/or other Amyrlin on the throne and be done with it.

[JKN-SW]

Regarding the search for the BoW, you can't really look at how things played out and then say what was right or wrong in Elaynes choice. Hindsight is always 20/20. At the time when she made the choice to go looking for the BoW instead of going to Caemlyn to claim the throne, she was mostly motivated (as so often characters in this book are) by the belief that no one else could do it as well as she could.

 

Right or wrong? Fullfilling her responsibility to Andor or to the world? Or both? You could argue for both sides, imho. However believing you have to do things yourself to have them done properly, is not a good characteristic of a leader. But again, that's how most of the characters reason in Randland.

[Xcorpyo001]

Regarding the search for the BoW, you can't really look at how things played out and then say what was right or wrong in Elaynes choice. Hindsight is always 20/20. At the time when she made the choice to go looking for the BoW instead of going to Caemlyn to claim the throne, she was mostly motivated (as so often characters in this book are) by the belief that no one else could do it as well as she could.

 

Right or wrong? Fullfilling her responsibility to Andor or to the world? Or both? You could argue for both sides, imho. However believing you have to do things yourself to have them done properly, is not a good characteristic of a leader. But again, that's how most of the characters reason in Randland.

 

 

It was my mistake to put the two of them together. I'm sorry about that.

The search of the BoW came after she was forbidden by a former AS and a bunch of rebels AS with no legal basis to go and do her duty because they feared Rand will use her to take control of Caemlyn and Cairhinen. Which he already was in control of, with or without Elayne.

If he really wanted to be named king, he would have done it, just as I said in the previous post.

Until now, she always had to put AS duties first, and until that changes, there is a problem with Caemlyn and Cairhien.

[Dewairah]

IMO There is a big question over the sovereignty of a nation that has an AS queen, particularly given the AS history of manipulating rulers, nations and groups to meet own ends.

[Mr Ares]

 

Events had to play out in a certain way. You yourself admitted without Mat they would not have found it and Birgitte was the one who smoothed it over. Nynaeve would never have consented to work with him alone. They were the two who used "need" and Elayne was the one who had the right of what the building looked like. She convinced Nynaeve to even find the kin in the first place instead of just leaving Mat's hotel. Be sarcastic all you want because you certainly don't have any basis in fact for your opinion.

 

As for her duty as David and I both said fixing the weather certainly falls under helping her realm as well. Food was scarce and time was very short, in saving the world she also saved her realm. Nevertheless making a decision as Daughter Heir is far different than once you are Queen. As a Queen the text is quite clear on what she will do...

 

PoD, Ch. 20

 

Necessary and right, though; when she sat on the Lion Throne, she would still be Aes Sedai, and subject to the laws and rules and customs of Aes Sedai. Not for Andor — she would not give her land to the White Tower — but for herself.

 

 

I'm sorry about the 1000 stashes part. It was meant more like a joke, but maybe I could have handled it better.

Mostly it's a feeling I have concerning those arcs/books.

For example Mat, Perrin and Rand split up and everybody does something he should do.

I thought that after going to Salidar, she should be part of the delegation to Caemlyn or go there as a queen.

But she spends the next book looking for a bowl, avoiding Mat, and traveling with the Circus(the circus, for Creator's sake). While the high lords kill each other, plot to take the thrones, and Rand is stuck there trying to jungle things and survive multiple assassination attempts.

She could have smooth things over with Rand.

The bowl comes second, when she is denied her right to go as daughter-heir, and the only other thing she could do is train or do some knitting in Salidar.

 

You all seem to forget the real reasons she wasn't allow to go to Caemlyn.

Elayne almost begged them to let her go, or accompany the Salidar delegation, but she was denied by Siuan, Leane(not even AS anymore) and the Sitters because they thought Rand will use her to take control of both Caemlyn and Cairhien.

Which was total BS, because he already controlled those regions.

And since Morgase changed the law by naming Rahvin king, he could name himself king, especially after he found out that his mother was before Morgase in line to the throne. That would have drive the lesson home for those AS. But since he's a good guy, he helped Elayne.

Of course, she still thinks she did it without Rand's help, which is funny. I wonder how would have managed to clear the city and the entire region of tens of thousands Aiel and Bashere's legions without Rand's say so, but a girl has to have her dreams.

 

Only after she was denied access to her rightful decision for a stupid reason she looked up something else to do(read-find bowl).

She could just visit Nynaeve in a dream to give her info/help in the search or try Traveling when she had a free window in Caemlyn.

 

If she was in Caemlyn from that part, he could have handle things faster, Rand would have been free to deal with Sammael&co, Nynaeve could have used other people to find the Bowl, and the series would have be shorter for a book or two. Instead, we see Elayne doing acrobatics for several chapters while Rand is surrounded by AS because he has to be present in Cairhien or Caemlin to be sure nobody takes over the thrones.

 

I will look for some quotes if you forgot that part, but I don't think that is the case.

While she has superiors in the WT, she will have to follow their orders first, as she had to do in Salidar. Oh, and those were rebel AS, without even an Amyrlin.

Found one:

"...Wheter my mother is alive or not, my place is in Caemlyn now. I am Daughter-Heir."

Siuan's loud snort made Nynaeve jump. "You've been Accepted long enough to know better."

...

Elayne's nose wrinkled - she knew very well that if she had already been on the Lion Throne, the AS still would have gotten away for training, by asking if possible, by stuffing her into a barrel if necessary-...

 

She will always have duties to the WT, even if now she's semi-AS(without the Oaths and the actual test), and those will always come first. At least from an AS point of view. So unless they can't make some big changes, she'll have to chose one or the other, or put Egvene/or other Amyrlin on the throne and be done with it.

Elayne's time with the circus was in FoH, while she was on her way to Salidar. She went to Ebou Dar for the Bowl in LoC. She was ent by Egwene, who was already raised as Amyrlin by that time - and who had already raised Elayen to AS as well. Therefore Elayne was entirely within her rights as an AS to go directly to Andor if she had desired. Dragging an Accepted back for training and doing so to a full sister are very different things. When Elayne's comment was made she was the former. Egwene made her the latter. Further, the need walk came after the decision to keep her back was made. When she was made AS she had a choice - Andor (which was currently stable) and the Bowl (which would save the people of Andor). Nothing stopped her going to Caemlyn once she was AS, aside from herself. Her choice. Rahvin made himself King of Andor - as such, it was not a change with any legal basis. Rand had no right to the throne, and had he tried to assert any he might have found himself in a world of trouble. If Andor rose against him, he could pacify it, but he doesn't need that kind of hassle. As it is, the AS forced him out of Caemlyn during LoC, leaving a power vacuum that wasn't present when Elayne left - and she began trying to fill as soon as she was done with the Bowl. He had lost control of the region - his troops held part of it, but not the whole country. Elayne, as an AS, has duties to the WT. She also has duties to her country, as a queen. She has stated she will put the latter before the former. She will put Andor first. If Egwene doesn't like it, she can set Elayne a pennance. So what it comes down to is is Elayne willing to take a spanking in order to allow Andor to remain free? Probably.

[MasterAblar]

 

Events had to play out in a certain way. You yourself admitted without Mat they would not have found it and Birgitte was the one who smoothed it over. Nynaeve would never have consented to work with him alone. They were the two who used "need" and Elayne was the one who had the right of what the building looked like. She convinced Nynaeve to even find the kin in the first place instead of just leaving Mat's hotel. Be sarcastic all you want because you certainly don't have any basis in fact for your opinion.

 

As for her duty as David and I both said fixing the weather certainly falls under helping her realm as well. Food was scarce and time was very short, in saving the world she also saved her realm. Nevertheless making a decision as Daughter Heir is far different than once you are Queen. As a Queen the text is quite clear on what she will do...

 

PoD, Ch. 20

 

Necessary and right, though; when she sat on the Lion Throne, she would still be Aes Sedai, and subject to the laws and rules and customs of Aes Sedai. Not for Andor — she would not give her land to the White Tower — but for herself.

 

 

I'm sorry about the 1000 stashes part. It was meant more like a joke, but maybe I could have handled it better.

Mostly it's a feeling I have concerning those arcs/books.

For example Mat, Perrin and Rand split up and everybody does something he should do.

I thought that after going to Salidar, she should be part of the delegation to Caemlyn or go there as a queen.

But she spends the next book looking for a bowl, avoiding Mat, and traveling with the Circus(the circus, for Creator's sake). While the high lords kill each other, plot to take the thrones, and Rand is stuck there trying to jungle things and survive multiple assassination attempts.

She could have smooth things over with Rand.

The bowl comes second, when she is denied her right to go as daughter-heir, and the only other thing she could do is train or do some knitting in Salidar.

 

You all seem to forget the real reasons she wasn't allow to go to Caemlyn.

Elayne almost begged them to let her go, or accompany the Salidar delegation, but she was denied by Siuan, Leane(not even AS anymore) and the Sitters because they thought Rand will use her to take control of both Caemlyn and Cairhien.

Which was total BS, because he already controlled those regions.

And since Morgase changed the law by naming Rahvin king, he could name himself king, especially after he found out that his mother was before Morgase in line to the throne. That would have drive the lesson home for those AS. But since he's a good guy, he helped Elayne.

Of course, she still thinks she did it without Rand's help, which is funny. I wonder how would have managed to clear the city and the entire region of tens of thousands Aiel and Bashere's legions without Rand's say so, but a girl has to have her dreams.

 

Only after she was denied access to her rightful decision for a stupid reason she looked up something else to do(read-find bowl).

She could just visit Nynaeve in a dream to give her info/help in the search or try Traveling when she had a free window in Caemlyn.

 

If she was in Caemlyn from that part, he could have handle things faster, Rand would have been free to deal with Sammael&co, Nynaeve could have used other people to find the Bowl, and the series would have be shorter for a book or two. Instead, we see Elayne doing acrobatics for several chapters while Rand is surrounded by AS because he has to be present in Cairhien or Caemlin to be sure nobody takes over the thrones.

 

I will look for some quotes if you forgot that part, but I don't think that is the case.

While she has superiors in the WT, she will have to follow their orders first, as she had to do in Salidar. Oh, and those were rebel AS, without even an Amyrlin.

Found one:

"...Wheter my mother is alive or not, my place is in Caemlyn now. I am Daughter-Heir."

Siuan's loud snort made Nynaeve jump. "You've been Accepted long enough to know better."

...

Elayne's nose wrinkled - she knew very well that if she had already been on the Lion Throne, the AS still would have gotten away for training, by asking if possible, by stuffing her into a barrel if necessary-...

 

She will always have duties to the WT, even if now she's semi-AS(without the Oaths and the actual test), and those will always come first. At least from an AS point of view. So unless they can't make some big changes, she'll have to chose one or the other, or put Egvene/or other Amyrlin on the throne and be done with it.

Elayne's time with the circus was in FoH, while she was on her way to Salidar. She went to Ebou Dar for the Bowl in LoC. She was ent by Egwene, who was already raised as Amyrlin by that time - and who had already raised Elayen to AS as well. Therefore Elayne was entirely within her rights as an AS to go directly to Andor if she had desired. Dragging an Accepted back for training and doing so to a full sister are very different things. When Elayne's comment was made she was the former. Egwene made her the latter. Further, the need walk came after the decision to keep her back was made. When she was made AS she had a choice - Andor (which was currently stable) and the Bowl (which would save the people of Andor). Nothing stopped her going to Caemlyn once she was AS, aside from herself. Her choice. Rahvin made himself King of Andor - as such, it was not a change with any legal basis. Rand had no right to the throne, and had he tried to assert any he might have found himself in a world of trouble. If Andor rose against him, he could pacify it, but he doesn't need that kind of hassle. As it is, the AS forced him out of Caemlyn during LoC, leaving a power vacuum that wasn't present when Elayne left - and she began trying to fill as soon as she was done with the Bowl. He had lost control of the region - his troops held part of it, but not the whole country. Elayne, as an AS, has duties to the WT. She also has duties to her country, as a queen. She has stated she will put the latter before the former. She will put Andor first. If Egwene doesn't like it, she can set Elayne a pennance. So what it comes down to is is Elayne willing to take a spanking in order to allow Andor to remain free? Probably.

 

See that's another reason the aes sedai annoy me. Had they let Elayne go in the first place, before she ever learned of the bowl, and therefore had no reason to go to Ebou Dar, there might never have been a problem in Andor. There would never have been a power vaccum left in Andor, which is what allowed the other Ladies to proclaim for the throne. There's no way they would dared to do that if Rand had never left. Furthermore the aes sedai were riling up the Lords and Ladies against Rand in the first place, to try and make him lose power. And of course then the other aes sedai went and kiddnaped Rand leaving the Ladies in Andor a clear run for the throne. Personally I feel the aes sedai actually have a large share of blaime in the ensuing war in Andor. Even if they ever meant it, their actions certainly had a great part in causing it.

[Himiko]

Elayne's comment about "She would be subject to all laws and customs of the AS, even when she sat on the Lion Throne. Not Andor- she wouldn't give her lands to the WT- but herself" (think that's right, I'm going off memory) is all very well, but it does seem to work on the basis that there won't be a conflict of interests. We know that Andor has, in the past under Siuan, attempted to take action that the WT disagrees with, and Siuan and Elaida talked/pressured/ whatever, Morgase out of it. Egwene's not an evil character, but she has shown she's perfectly willing to use her friends to gain political points. Is she really going to be happy with the idea that if she gives any instruction regarding Andor, Elayne will ignore it and take a spanking for it when she next pops into the tower? The AS were thrilled with the idea of an AS queen for a reason. Let's be honest, a large part of that gain would probably be the idea that Elayne will rule Andor in a manner that will be very beneficial to the tower.

 

It doesn't even have to be an open conflict of priorities- an action that would damage Andor on the one hand, but benefit the WT, would obviously (I hope) be turned down by Elayne, and given that the WT probably wants to keep Andor as an ally, they'd have to suck on it- or not suggest it in the first place. However, what if during her reign, Elayne is put in a position (perhaps when making alliances, trading, etc.) she was presented with two options- one that benefits Andor more, but has no effect on the WT, and another that benefits Andor less, but also benefits the WT? Now, Elayne the Queen of Andor should probably make the choice that most benefits her nation. But Elayne the Aes Sedai would be expected by the AS as a body (who, bear in mind, are all pretty keen on the idea of a powerful WT), to make a decision that would benefit the WT, provided it doesn't hurt Andor. That's the kind of day-to-day thing I'm thinking of.

 

Elayne is NOT just the Queen of Andor when she's sitting on the throne. If she takes her own duties as an AS into account when making decisions as the Queen of Andor (and now Cairhien), then her country IS under the control of the WT and the Amyrlin Seat. If she doesn't let the fact that she's AS impact on her political decisions, which I hope will be the case, and acts as AS in other things, that's all very well, but I can see certain elements of the AS being displeased if she repeatedly acts against the best interests of the tower for the best interests of her own nation, and just picks up the odd penance for it. Egwene is very much in favour of a strong, influential Tower, and regards Elayne as one of her closest allies. I don't want to get into debating the rights and wrongs of her political decisions, but you surely can't argue that she's shown willingness to use her friends to gain more political strength. I don't really see her going "Sure, don't worry about it, ignore WT instruction and I'll just chuck a penance your way every now and then?" once she's in a more solid position at the WT? And any future Amyrlin is unlikely to be an old friend of Elayne's, its unlikely she'd get the leeway from them.

 

I think, at the end of the day, whether its shown in the books or not, Elayne is probably going to end up with two conflicting interests, and I think that eventually its going to reach a point where one side or the other forces her to choose between being AS and being Queen of Andor. I suspect she'll choose Andor, but who knows- perhaps her children will be grown by then, and she can leave the running of the country to them and "retire" into the WT, as it were.

[Xcorpyo001]

Elayne's time with the circus was in FoH, while she was on her way to Salidar. She went to Ebou Dar for the Bowl in LoC. She was ent by Egwene, who was already raised as Amyrlin by that time - and who had already raised Elayen to AS as well. Therefore Elayne was entirely within her rights as an AS to go directly to Andor if she had desired. Dragging an Accepted back for training and doing so to a full sister are very different things. When Elayne's comment was made she was the former. Egwene made her the latter. Further, the need walk came after the decision to keep her back was made. When she was made AS she had a choice - Andor (which was currently stable) and the Bowl (which would save the people of Andor). Nothing stopped her going to Caemlyn once she was AS, aside from herself. Her choice. Rahvin made himself King of Andor - as such, it was not a change with any legal basis. Rand had no right to the throne, and had he tried to assert any he might have found himself in a world of trouble. If Andor rose against him, he could pacify it, but he doesn't need that kind of hassle. As it is, the AS forced him out of Caemlyn during LoC, leaving a power vacuum that wasn't present when Elayne left - and she began trying to fill as soon as she was done with the Bowl. He had lost control of the region - his troops held part of it, but not the whole country. Elayne, as an AS, has duties to the WT. She also has duties to her country, as a queen. She has stated she will put the latter before the former. She will put Andor first. If Egwene doesn't like it, she can set Elayne a pennance. So what it comes down to is is Elayne willing to take a spanking in order to allow Andor to remain free? Probably.

 

Yes, the circus part was before Salidar, my mistake(again).

Bu the point stands: she was forced against her wishes to do something for the WT(and it was a stupid reason), and it was detrimental for Andor.

And I still don't like the spanking part. Why should she be punished by the WT if she can't comply with the orders of the Amyrlin because it will be detrimental for Andor or Cairhien?

Of course, the WT and the current Amyrlin seems to think that is ok to beat up or kidnap kings(the one in Illian), but it shouldn't be like that. And for an AS it will be much worse.

 

I already see her schedule:

9AM: meeting with the nobles

10AM: getting spanked for meeting with the nobles because the Amyrlin didn't allow it

1PM: bargain with the AM windfinders

1:30PM: hoeing potatoes in WT because ....

3PM-5PM making TA for the AS

6PM visiting Aviendha

6:30PM penance for visiting WO without WT approval

7PM Having s!x with Rand(king of Illian/Andor/Cairhien/whatever)

10PM(Rand has a lot of stamina) Doing chores for consorting with a king...by the new rules, only the Amyrlin has the right to do so.

 

 

Not an easy thing to do...

[Suttree]

Yes, the circus part was before Salidar, my mistake(again).

Bu the point stands: she was forced against her wishes to do something for the WT(and it was a stupid reason), and it was detrimental for Andor.

 

No she wasn't, I know in the first post you had it confused but she was a full AS at the time. Andor was secure and SHE chose to fix the world's weather before going home. It was not detrimental to Andor in the slightest, the succession war was a small price to pay. How many lives throughout Andor were saved verse what would have happened if the weather continued in the direction it was headed?

 

What it comes down to is your whole point is based on the assumption that Elayne didn't have to be in Ebou Dar but you can't change the facts of the story. It is quite clear on many levels that she had an integral part to play.

[Xcorpyo001]

Yes, the circus part was before Salidar, my mistake(again).

Bu the point stands: she was forced against her wishes to do something for the WT(and it was a stupid reason), and it was detrimental for Andor.

 

No she wasn't, I know in the first post you had it confused but she was a full AS at the time. Andor was secure and SHE chose to fix the world's weather before going home. It was not detrimental to Andor in the slightest, the succession war was a small price to pay. How many lives throughout Andor were saved verse what would have happened if the weather continued in the direction it was headed?

 

What it comes down to is your whole point is based on the assumption that Elayne didn't have to be in Ebou Dar but you can't change the facts of the story. It is quite clear on many levels that she had an integral part to play.

 

 

I'm talking about her first visit to Salidar(she's Accepted and Egwene is still with the WO)

The Sitters+Siuan run things there.

Siuan is the one that says that she can't go there and do her duty as a daughter-heir(even if she wants to) because Rand will use her to take control of Andor and Cairhien...which is totally BS.

[Suttree]

Yes, the circus part was before Salidar, my mistake(again).

Bu the point stands: she was forced against her wishes to do something for the WT(and it was a stupid reason), and it was detrimental for Andor.

 

No she wasn't, I know in the first post you had it confused but she was a full AS at the time. Andor was secure and SHE chose to fix the world's weather before going home. It was not detrimental to Andor in the slightest, the succession war was a small price to pay. How many lives throughout Andor were saved verse what would have happened if the weather continued in the direction it was headed?

 

What it comes down to is your whole point is based on the assumption that Elayne didn't have to be in Ebou Dar but you can't change the facts of the story. It is quite clear on many levels that she had an integral part to play.

 

 

I'm talking about her first visit to Salidar(she's Accepted and Egwene is still with the WO)

The Sitters+Siuan run things there.

Siuan is the one that says that she can't go there and do her duty as a daughter-heir(even if she wants to) because Rand will use her to take control of Andor and Cairhien...which is totally BS.

 

Ok, my fault. Guess I just don't see how it's relevant to the discussion at hand? What happened as Daughter Heir and an Accepted is quite different from what an AS and Queen will choose to do.

[Xcorpyo001]

Yes, the circus part was before Salidar, my mistake(again).

Bu the point stands: she was forced against her wishes to do something for the WT(and it was a stupid reason), and it was detrimental for Andor.

 

No she wasn't, I know in the first post you had it confused but she was a full AS at the time. Andor was secure and SHE chose to fix the world's weather before going home. It was not detrimental to Andor in the slightest, the succession war was a small price to pay. How many lives throughout Andor were saved verse what would have happened if the weather continued in the direction it was headed?

 

What it comes down to is your whole point is based on the assumption that Elayne didn't have to be in Ebou Dar but you can't change the facts of the story. It is quite clear on many levels that she had an integral part to play.

 

 

I'm talking about her first visit to Salidar(she's Accepted and Egwene is still with the WO)

The Sitters+Siuan run things there.

Siuan is the one that says that she can't go there and do her duty as a daughter-heir(even if she wants to) because Rand will use her to take control of Andor and Cairhien...which is totally BS.

 

Ok, my fault. Guess I just don't see how it's relevant to the discussion at hand? What happened as Daughter Heir and an Accepted is quite different from what an AS and Queen will choose to do.

 

 

 

An AS is bound by the same rules as any other member of the WT, although she has a fewer number of superiors. She has to obey the Amyrlin, never betray the WT, etc.

And she would have been named queen on the spot, whatever her rank in the WT was. But she was forced to stay in Salidar against her wishes, and Andor was without leadership for months, only because a bunch of rebel AS with no legal power and no Amyrlin believed it was for the best(which it wasn't, because Rand would have never used her).

And many AS(the Hall included) still don't recognize her as an AS(the only one truly accepted is Nynaeve). Elayne didn't passed the test for AS or even swore the oaths.

[Suttree]

An AS is bound by the same rules as any other member of the WT, although she has a fewer number of superiors. She has to obey the Amyrlin, never betray the WT, etc.

And she would have been named queen on the spot, whatever her rank in the WT was. But she was forced to stay in Salidar against her wishes, and Andor was without leadership for months, only because a bunch of rebel AS with no legal power and no Amyrlin believed it was for the best(which it wasn't, because Rand would have never used her).

And many AS(the Hall included) still don't recognize her as an AS(the only one truly accepted is Nynaeve). Elayne didn't passed the test for AS or even swore the oaths.

 

Think you are just looking at it in a far too black and white way. The Amrlyin needs to use a very sophisticated political "give and take" to get anything done and keep her reign strong.

 

My problem with everything you keep putting forth is you make a good deal of assumptions. Like they would have found the bowl with just Nyn, Elayne would have been named Queen etc. You do realize how important it was for Elayne to be seen not to take the Lion Throne from Rand? Not to mention Rand was only the Regent, he never conquered Andor and it was not his to give.

 

TPoD Ch28

“You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

 

If she had said yes, Dyelin would not have thrown her support for Elayne and she would never have gained the majority.

 

In addition before that he Andoran Nobles were ready to try and force Rand out had he stayed too long...

LoC

“I refuse still,” Dyelin answered in a strong voice, then turned to Rand. “I will wait and consider, my Lord Dragon. When I see Elayne alive and crowned, and you leave Andor, I will send my retainers to follow you whether anyone else in Andor does the same. But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I’ve heard they did in Cairhien and Tear”—she scowled at the Maidens and Red Shields, and the gai’shain too, as if she saw them looting and burning—“or you loose here those . . . men you gather with your amnesty, then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same.”

 

“And I will ride beside you,” Luan said firmly.

 

“And I,” Ellorien said, echoed by Abelle.

 

and the general populace resented his position...

TPoD

He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway.”

 

&

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

 

Add to this Bashere discussing how she couldn't use the Aiel or Rand's soldiers to take the throne and I hope you start to see it's not nearly as clear cut as her showing up and being named Queen.

 

In terms of the Salidar AS no idea why you keep making a point of them not having legal power. Once they split they had just as much authority as the WT. Just look at them standing on equal ground when dealing with rulers in Ebou Dar etc. Not to mention everyone of Eggy's decrees as Amrylin have stood and not been challenged. Most were pretty unpopular, if there was any question of legal uncertainty surely her opponents would have used that to do away with them. One of those was declaring Elayne AS and we know how she reacts when anyone questions her right to the claim...

KoD "House on Full Moon Street"

Elayne rose and stared down at Duhara. Usually, someone seated held the advantage over someone standing, but she made her stare hard and her voice harder. She wanted to slap the woman’s face! “I was raised Aes Sedai by Egwene al’Vere on the day she herself was raised Amyrlin. I chose the Green Ajah and was admitted. Don’t you ever say I’m not Aes Sedai, Duhara. Burn me if I’ll stand still for it!”