Rand Kneeling to Empress (speculation)

[yoniy0]

Ishamael, toyed with Aes Sedai, he was really the man behind the Amyrlin, and could easily kill and replace an Amyrlin as he desired via his puppets (BA).

Interesting concept, but I've never really thought he had a foothold back then in the WT. Do you have any proof of this to back it up?

Firstly, Ishamael wasn't free most of the time. But if we take his word for it (which we shouldn't necessarily), he instituted the BA during the trolloc wars. Since then - and whenever he was free - it stands to reason that he could have them kill an Amyrlin at need.

[Suttree]

Ishamael, toyed with Aes Sedai, he was really the man behind the Amyrlin, and could easily kill and replace an Amyrlin as he desired via his puppets (BA).

Interesting concept, but I've never really thought he had a foothold back then in the WT. Do you have any proof of this to back it up?

Firstly, Ishamael wasn't free most of the time. But if we take his word for it (which we shouldn't necessarily), he instituted the BA during the trolloc wars. Since then - and whenever he was free - it stands to reason that he could have them kill an Amyrlin at need.

 

I see what you mean, just figured that isn't really resource he would give up control of. How did Mesanna come to have full control of the WT if that was the case?

[yoniy0]

I see what you mean, just figured that isn't really resource he would give up control of. How did Mesanna come to have full control of the WT if that was the case?

Because he doesn't have time to do it himself? We know from Alviarin's PoV that she had dealings with several Forsaken before Mesaana set up shop. And Ishi was never afraid to delegate; he doesn't seem as fearful of other FS as the rest of them IMO.

[Entreri]

I see what you mean, just figured that isn't really resource he would give up control of. How did Mesanna come to have full control of the WT if that was the case?

Because he doesn't have time to do it himself? We know from Alviarin's PoV that she had dealings with several Forsaken before Mesaana set up shop. And Ishi was never afraid to delegate; he doesn't seem as fearful of other FS as the rest of them IMO.

 

Yes.

 

Ishamael is the King of the Forsaken and certainly fears no other Forsaken, but the others fear him, rightfully so. He is strongest in the Power, likely the most knowledgeable and possibly as skillful as the any other Forsaken. Even Demandred is no match for Ishamael and this can be seen in how Demandred behaves towards Ishamael compared to the other Forsaken.

 

The fear the rest of Forsaken had for Ishamael is clearly seen in Aginor/Dashiva's PoV (before he gets killed by Narishma+Callandor), fear Rahvain&Bel'lal showed in the TAR meeting with Ishamael (they banded together, lol). Same Rahvin who said he (or Sammael) would overwhelm Lanfear. Clearly, Rahvin is no weakling but scared shitless facing Ishamael.

[Suttree]

I see what you mean, just figured that isn't really resource he would give up control of. How did Mesanna come to have full control of the WT if that was the case?

Because he doesn't have time to do it himself? We know from Alviarin's PoV that she had dealings with several Forsaken before Mesaana set up shop. And Ishi was never afraid to delegate; he doesn't seem as fearful of other FS as the rest of them IMO.

 

Ehh could be, just think we would have seen him at some point comment or think about it. Mesaana clearly doesn't think of herself as working for anyone however...

[yoniy0]

What would you have him say? All DFs where once his, but since the other FS awoken they've made their own connections. Moridin even tells them to use those connections when hunting for Perrin and Mat.

If he doesn't mind that, why would he when the DFs in question happen to be channelers? The only reason is their strength, but as mentioned above, I don't think he'd fear them in any other FS's hands. After all, it's oblivion he wants, not eternal life

[mackoY-kun]

My interpretation of the kneeling prophesy is something I haven't seen anyone else mention yet. We assume that because Tuon says "the prophesies are quite clear" it means she has interpreted them correctly. I'm more inclined to think the verse may go along the lines of

 

"He who gambles with the fate of the world,

Shall kneel before the Throne of Moons,

and the Ravens shall send him to battle

to triumph over the forces of the lord of the grave"

 

Now this is entirely fictional, but what if the stanza that tuon is referring to, actually references Mat and him being bound to the crystal throne? It may be that very few people consider there to be more than one person talked about in the prophesies.

 

This also leads to the fact that the changes are still relevant prophesy, but we know that ishmael has had access to such people in order to write the dark prophesy, and so he may have used them or some others to modify the Seanchan version

 

I also think along these lines, in tGS c35 in tuon's POV; "How much had he fulfilled? He didn't seem blinded yet, so that had yet to happen". I think this points a fingers to Mat as the "he", And "he", mat might actually be the one to "kneel before the crystal throne" not the DR.

 

I think this might be a hint that it is actually Mat

[yoniy0]

I also think along these lines, in tGS c35 in tuon's POV; "How much had he fulfilled? He didn't seem blinded yet, so that had yet to happen". I think this points a fingers to Mat as the "he", And "he", mat might actually be the one to "kneel before the crystal throne" not the DR.

 

I think this might be a hint that it is actually Mat

We actually got to read that piece of prophecy from the Essanik Cycle after TGS's epilogue:

At the end of time,

when the many become one,

the last storm shall gather its angry winds

to destroy a land already dying.

And at its center, the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought.

-from The Prophecies of the Dragon, Essanik Cycle. Malhavish's Official Translation, Imperial Record House of Seandar, Fourth Circle of Elevation.

I think it's more likely that this refers to Rand, as VoG seems a good fit.

[Lisa Campbell]

I think I heard (or read rather) that the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal that compels anyone who comes within proximity of it kneel to and obey whomever sits on/controls it???

 

While this may have been important in the future re: planned outriggers with Mat and Tuon, the point seems to be moot now.

 

The prophecy says "kneel before the Crystal Throne" which doesn't seem likely because Fortuona knows that it is complete anarchy over in her homeland and I doubt she would trust Rand enough to let him lead an invasion to secure the throne/court just so that she can sit on the throne while he bends knee to her. If she told him that that's what he needs to do in order to have Seanchan support for the Last Battle he'd probably tell her to get stuffed because there's no time for that crap and I think deep down she knows that this is true anyway.

 

I think Rand has grown into the knowledge that he serves the entire world and everyone in it just by being the Dragon and the Light's champion. This would include Fortuona and the Seanchan. So he already serves her due to his acceptance of his fate. I think he will make this clear to the assembled rulers and armies at the Fields of Merrilor when he tells them what he plans to do and then tells them how they can assist him to defeat the Dark One. He knows that they'll run around like beheaded chooks for a while after he leaves them all gaping but is probably counting on Mat's and Perrin's "taverenness" to make them see reason. I can just imagine Mat telling Fortuona to:

 

"Get off your Precious arse and stop acting like a bloody goatless bloody noble with nothing more than fluff between your ears! Mother's milk in a cup, you'll probably make me dacovale for this, but just you try it, for Light's sake! Bloody nobles, the whole lot of you are nearly as witless and stubborn as the Aes Sedai, blood and bloody ashes! And you bloody sand eaters aren't much better so stop sniggering, the Master of the Blades has spoken and you'll bloody do as you're bloody told too." Turns to Egwene, "Was that diplomatic enough for you, Your Amyrlesty?"

 

The only thing that makes me doubt my own conviction about this is chapter one of Towers of Midnight where they are mentioned and the significance every one else places on them due to Egwene's dream.

 

Anyway, I'd still like to see Mat stick it to Fortuona, it would definately be a LOL moment.

[Luckers]

The Crystal Throne doesn't compel obeidience as such, rather it induces feelings of awe in whoever sees it.

[Lisa Campbell]

Thanks Luckers. I still think the rest is plausible if not possible.

 

I also forgot to mention that when Fortuona resisted Rand's tavernness was because she saw his dark aura just in the nick of time.

[FarShainMael]

I can just imagine Mat telling Fortuona to:

 

"Get off your Precious arse and stop acting like a bloody goatless bloody noble with nothing more than fluff between your ears! Mother's milk in a cup, you'll probably make me dacovale for this, but just you try it, for Light's sake! Bloody nobles, the whole lot of you are nearly as witless and stubborn as the Aes Sedai, blood and bloody ashes! And you bloody sand eaters aren't much better so stop sniggering, the Master of the Blades has spoken and you'll bloody do as you're bloody told too." Turns to Egwene, "Was that diplomatic enough for you, Your Amyrlesty?"

 

 

Quite superb, I can hear it now!!

[cmsnaith]

 

The Issue of a Doom

 

The second candidate is Ishamael. He tells Rand that in sending Luthair to Seanchan he sealed two dooms. One then (the death of Hawkwing's Empire) and one now (presumably the Seanchan Return, and the conflict it would cause).

 

However this is odd. The Seanchan are not Darkfriends, and their war of unification isn't so different to Rand's--focussed in large part on fighting the Shadow. So how could Ishamael be so certain as to claim their insured a certain doom--the answer would be the Prophecy. In altering it he would have specifically targeted the Seanchan Empire at the Dragon, a confrontation which well could spell doom for the Light.

 

 

What about the a'dams? The Seanchan attitude toward channelers, which includes the Dragon, emerged out of the widespread use of the a'dam. Could not this account for the second sealed doom Ishamael speaks of? Perhaps the Seanchan elite themselves altered the prophecies so that the marath'damane Dragon would kneel to the Empire, rather than the Nine Moons being bound to and serving that animal.

 

I may even suggest that the Aes Sedai who created the a'dam may have been Black Ajah working under the direction of Ishamael himself.

[Suttree]

 

The Issue of a Doom

 

The second candidate is Ishamael. He tells Rand that in sending Luthair to Seanchan he sealed two dooms. One then (the death of Hawkwing's Empire) and one now (presumably the Seanchan Return, and the conflict it would cause).

 

However this is odd. The Seanchan are not Darkfriends, and their war of unification isn't so different to Rand's--focussed in large part on fighting the Shadow. So how could Ishamael be so certain as to claim their insured a certain doom--the answer would be the Prophecy. In altering it he would have specifically targeted the Seanchan Empire at the Dragon, a confrontation which well could spell doom for the Light.

 

 

What about the a'dams? The Seanchan attitude toward channelers, which includes the Dragon, emerged out of the widespread use of the a'dam. Could not this account for the second sealed doom Ishamael speaks of? Perhaps the Seanchan elite themselves altered the prophecies so that the marath'damane Dragon would kneel to the Empire, rather than the Nine Moons being bound to and serving that animal.

 

I may even suggest that the Aes Sedai who created the a'dam may have been Black Ajah working under the direction of Ishamael himself.

 

We know that Luthair Paendrag brought the version that had Rand kneeling with him when he came to Seanchan. Considering the influence Ishy had on his father think it's safe to say it refers to the prophecy.

[yoniy0]

We know that Luthair Paendrag brought the version that had Rand kneeling with him when he came to Seanchan.

No, we know that this is what people now believe. They might be mistaken.

[Suttree]

We know that Luthair Paendrag brought the version that had Rand kneeling with him when he came to Seanchan.

No, we know that this is what people now believe. They might be mistaken.

 

Good call...

[Din]

I don't see why people have such a problem with the concept of Rand kneeling to Fortuona.

There's a scene were Rand reflects on how well the Seanchan can run a country which I think gives us a good clue about this.

[AshaShan]

I don't see why people have such a problem with the concept of Rand kneeling to Fortuona.

There's a scene were Rand reflects on how well the Seanchan can run a country which I think gives us a good clue about this.

 

The Seanchan are ignorant savages. Rand has unfettered access to the memories of LTT, who lived for four centuries in an enlightened space-age society, and held the highest office in that society. It'd be like the President of the USA going back in time and swearing fealty to Caesar because Caesar knows how to build roads.

[Luckers]

The Seanchan are hardly ignorent, nor savage. Indeed, it can be said that the very worst aspects of their society are artificial social constructs of an incredibly elaborate design--the da'covale system is certainly as complex as any modern bureaucracy.

 

For all that the main reason people have a problem with the prophecy (aside from hero-worship of Rand) is that the prophecy is almost certainly a fabrication. Oh, that Fortuona believes it to be real will no doubt have an impact on the plot, but that doesn't change the fact that the prophecy is false.

[Louise]

Completely agree. They aren't ignorant savages. They have their faults, and said faults are fairly big BUT as Din said, they do seem (for the most part) to run their lands very, very well. Though their prophecy does have to be a fake, it contradicts the Randlands Prophecy, which has been accurate so far.

 

'He shall bind the Nine Moons to serve him.'

vs.

'He must kneel before the Crystal Throne.'

[AshaShan]

The Seanchan are indeed savages. As are the Aiel, Andorans and everyone else in the WOT universe. I am not comparing them negatively to the peoples of the Westlands, I am comparing them negatively to our own society, which in turn is apparantly worthy of negative comparison to the AOL, which Rand remembers in great detail. His kneeling to Tuon would be highly unethical, IMO.

[Clayden69]

Completely agree. They aren't ignorant savages. They have their faults, and said faults are fairly big BUT as Din said, they do seem (for the most part) to run their lands very, very well. Though their prophecy does have to be a fake, it contradicts the Randlands Prophecy, which has been accurate so far.

 

'He shall bind the Nine Moons to serve him.'

vs.

'He must kneel before the Crystal Throne.'

 

 

I've always liked the idea that Rand is forced to "kneel" as he thinks it is the only way he can "bind" the Seanchan to "serve". "Bind" and "serve" doesnt have to mean he will be above the Seanchan, it could mean that they are allies. We all know how this series has liked to play with words, specially the prophecies. The 2 sentences are not necessarily contradicting one another.

[Louise]

I've been tying to figure out a plausible way to make that work. I thought the same at first but I just can't see it happening. Although having said that, the post Veins of Gold Rand would be more willing to accept such a sacrifice. IMO Fortuona would take it to mean servitude, as thats how she seems to see it and I just can't figure how Rand would get around that.

[Luckers]

What I'm waiting for, more than anything, is for someone to make the point to Fortuona and the Seanchan that the Empress knows no equal is a conceit, not a fact--this is not a hatred thing, I don't say it because I want to see that naughty Fortuona humbled, but simply because I love the drama of it. Consider that Fortuona held off naming herself Empress so she could meet Rand as equal, but that the Prophecy states that Rand will bind the Nine Moons to serve him, not the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and that in effect by naming herself Empress Fortuona exposed herself to being bound.

 

Also, I would like to see Cadsuane turn her attention to Fortuona for a bit.

 

***

 

"The Empress has no equal!" the man who spoke was of the low Blood, his face tight with anger. Fortuona permitted herself no reaction to the words of the marath'damane.

 

"Indeed?" The woman, Cadsuane, spoke mildly, not looking up from her knitting. In truth she barely seemed to be paying attention. "An interesting concept; I wonder if it gave Radhanan any comfort when Semirhage was painting the Crystal Throne with her blood?"

 

For a moment there was shocked silence, then with an inarticulate roar of rage, the lord flung himself at the marath'damane, sword in hand as if it had always been there. But as fast as he moved one of those men in those eye-twisting coats moved faster, and the lords head flew clean. Blood rained down on the marath'daman, but she did not flinch. Calmly, using what she had been knitting, Cadsuane wiped the blood from her face. Fortuona could see what it was, now. A man, kneeling to a woman; only now the woman was covered in blood. Fortuona shivered, despite herself.

[Louise]

What I'm waiting for, more than anything, is for someone to make the point to Fortuona and the Seanchan that the Empress knows no equal is a conceit, not a fact

I am so very fascinated by the whole thing. Randland, their prophecies and ideals vs. Seanchan, their prophecies and ideals. I think the Seanchan have become one of the most intriguing story lines in the latter books. Polar opposite beliefs and ways of life. Not to mention, obviously, the conflicting prophecies. I just can't wait to see how the Rand/Fortuona tug of war pans out. Especially with the massive wildcard... Mat. It's going to be very interesting to see how he fits into all of this.

 

Also, I would like to see Cadsuane turn her attention to Fortuona for a bit.

That would be a fairly epic showdown. Particularly if it was infront of a swarthe of Seanchan!