Lews Therin newsflash

[Terez]

The official word on the TGS tour was 'we ain't telling you'. But check out this interview Marie Curie just found:

 

GeekDad Interview with Brandon - 2 November 2009

 

GD: Anyone who knows the books at all knows that Rand al’Thor hears the voice of Lews Therin in his head-sometimes cackling like a madman, other times more helpfully. After wading through all of Robert Jordan’s notes, and listening to those dictated comments, do you have a new sympathy for Rand?

 

BS: Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I’d been told that “Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad,” but I didn’t accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand’s head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he’d promised: “No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he’s seeing part of his past life, but he’s going insane. It’s the immense pressure that’s doing this.” In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, it’s hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.

 

Robert Jordan once said in an interview, when someone tried to get him to boil down the series to its core-he first said, you can’t boil down this series. I wrote it as long as I did because that’s how long I needed to tell the story, and so boiling it down doesn’t work. But he finally did say this: At it’s essence, this series is about what it’s like to be told that you need to save the world, and that it’s probably going to cost your life. Even all of the other characters, you could say that that is a theme for them, too. Egwene has had to give up the life that she’d assumed that she was going to live, and to adopt this other life in the name of the greater good. And that’s happening to everybody. Kings and queens are being cast down, and people who thought that their lives were just going to be normal and stable, and that’s all they really wanted, are being forced to take upon themselves these mantles of responsibility. And Rand is at the very heart of that. Rand is the center, the example for all of them of what they’re having to go through, and it’s the worst for him.

 

Looks like Brandon goofed a little, and Team Jordan saw this interview and asked him to be more secretive. Note the dates.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, BYU Midnight Release 27 October 2009 - Jennifer McBride reporting

Question: How extensive were RJ’s notes about Lews Therin?

Answer: His notes about Lews Therin, I would say are about middle extensive, comparatively of different things that he has notes on. Les than some, more than others. They were extensive enough that I know enough things you don’t know to make me excited, but not so extensive that you know, you are ever going to see a book about Lews Therin or anything like that.

Question: As a followup question, are the notes about Lews Therin the same notes about the voice of Lews Therin’s?

Answer: You know I think that’s enough of a spoiler because there is still confusion or not confusion, wondering from people whether or not Lews Therin is the voice, I mean, of course Semirhage said that it is … Robert Jordan never really made that explicit himself. What I think and what you think may be different and so we’ll just leave it. There are things about this in the book.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Lexington, KY 10 November 2009 - Stormleader Team reporting

Jordan was intentionally vague about the issue of Rand and Lews Therin’s one soul and what part madness played in the two identities.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting

Mato: There have been rumors that you have said that Mr. Jordan did not have anything in his notes about the voice of Lews Therin, whether it was a construct or not. That or that you had sai--[cut off]

Sanderson: I would like to clarify this, thanks for asking. I will NOT say that it was not in the notes. However, Mr. Jordan did NOT want to reveal this information, and therefore I shall not ever either. Mr. Jordan did not want to reveal it.

Harriet: What Brandon said.

Mato: Oh, ok, well that's all for now. Thanks a lot!

Sanderson: Wow, I was able to answer all three of those questions. Really well thought out, congratulations! I didn't have to RAFO you! You get a silver star.

Mato: Haha, I'll let the guys at Theoryland know that, after all, they're mostly their questions.

Looks like this debate is finally over. Brandon specifically said that's what he had found in the notes. Clearly, he wasn't supposed to say that. And now we know.

[Luckers]

All Brandon said in that interview was that he had previously thought the voice was unrelated to Rand's madness, and that the notes showed otherwise. Since both the constructionists and those who argue the voice is real both maintain that it is is a form of madness--this comment supports neither theory. Nice try, though, but Brandon's position here changes nothing, it simply rules out a third theory--that the manifestation of Lews Therin was unrelated to any form of madness.

[Terez]

All Brandon said in that interview was that he had previously thought the voice was unrelated to Rand's madness, and that the notes showed otherwise.

He also said that he hadn't wanted to believe that the voice was a delusion, and that the notes showed otherwise.

 

Since both the constructionists and those who argue the voice is real both maintain that it is is a form of madness--this comment supports neither theory. Nice try, though, but Brandon's position here changes nothing, it simply rules out a third theory--that the manifestation of Lews Therin was unrelated to any form of madness.

Like Leigh said...

 

Leigh Butler - tor.com WoT Re-read

 

It was the same thing with the Taimandred thing; even after Jordan said, flat out, in so many words, "Taim is not Demandred", there were *still* fans who wouldn't accept it. The Lews Therin thing will be no different. This I Foretell.

[Luckers]

"Or anything like that". The real madness theory maintains that Rand IS delusional, a result of the instability of having two facet personalities. I've always claimed this, and do not just now suddenly do so in order to explain this comment.

 

This is not Taimendred my dear. Say what you will.

[Terez]

I don't have to say much, really. Your desperation is apparent.

[Luckers]

Indeed, well leaving that comment well alone, here is what Brandon had to say.

 

James,

 

Feel free to post this response from me.

 

"I stand by everything I said in those interviews; I did not make any miss-steps. However, there is one big misinterpretation. Terez says that I was asked by Team Jordan to be more secretive. That's not the case. There was one time when Harriet asked me to be more secretive, but that was in regards to spoilers about TofM when I was working on it, and she felt (rightly) that I was hinting about too many things that would come in the book.

 

I have not settled, and do not intend to settle, this debate except in regard to the things placed specifically in the books. The Geekdad interview response is primarily talking about my own reactions as a reader the first time I read specific scenes, long before I saw what was in the notes. At that point, as a fan, my view of the books shifted.

 

Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes. I have not said, and will continue not to say, what was in them on this point. There are clues in the text. That is always the way it has been, and I think that is sufficient for this conversation. However, I can explicitly say there was no "Team Jordan order of silence" on this particular point. In fact, there have been few (or none) of those except in regards to spoiling surprises for the books not yet in print. I prefer to keep it that way, which is why I generally ask interviewers to run my interviews past Team Jordan for clarification, and so that they know what I'm saying and can steer me if I do happen to stray into areas best left quiet."

 

Best,

 

Brandon

 

I'm sure you'll twist that however you want, but for me, I'm fine with the fact that Brandon does not reguard his comments to have settled this debate since nor do I. Brandon thought the manifestation of Lews Therin was completely unrelated to madness when he was a fan, the notes changed that but he will not say how. Since my theory requires that the voice be the result of the taint and the basis of Rand's mental instability, I'm good with that.

[Terez]

It was expected, actually. His wording is even further confirmation, and follows on a point I just made to Isa at Theoryland. (He won't lie, so things like 'Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes' are huge red flashing arrows.) Clearly, his views shifted when reading the Semirhage passage, which confirms that he didn't read into the word 'real' in the same way that the real'ers did at all...and he wouldn't have spoken about it in that way if the notes had contradicted his feelings.

[Mik]

I don't have to say much, really. Your desperation is apparent.

I see that 'desperation-card' you're trying to shove into Luckers hand tightly stuck on yours, to be honest.

If you feel this proves it, good for you!

 

 

Myself? I'm (still) convinced that Lews Therins managed to Mindtrap himself when he Sealed the Bore & created Dragonmount. Essentially, he sealed off his own Soul (where the Bore is) and destroyed his own body by taking in as much Saidin as he could (and more).

 

"You never escape the traps you spin yourself"

 

Lews Therin was and still is it's own Living Mind that over time -through prophecy like the rebirth of the Dragon Soul on Dragonmount & the taking of Callandor- managed to reconnect to the Dragon Soul.

 

While Shai'tan is tainting the Seals untill they break and that hold it back, it also unwittingly is removing the Dragon self-made Mind-trap.

 

Just my two coppers worth in a very tiny nuttshell.

*shrugs*

*waits and sees*

[Suttree]

Wow...that GeekDad interview is as close to a smoking gun as were going to get on this subject.

 

“No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he’s seeing part of his past life, but he’s going insane. It’s the immense pressure that’s doing this."

 

Now I understand Luckers point of view but based on what I personally believe this pretty much closes the deal.

[JKN-SW]

Mr. Jordan did NOT want to reveal this information, and therefore I shall not ever either. Mr. Jordan did not want to reveal it.

 

To me, this is the same as saying, there is no absolute truth on this point. If there is no way of finding out exactly what RJ ment, then every reader is free to have his or her own interpretation. After all, leaving details, or even important parts of a story, to the readers imagination is pretty common.

[Dream]

Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I’d been told that “Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad,” but I didn’t accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand’s head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he’d promised: “No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he’s seeing part of his past life, but he’s going insane. It’s the immense pressure that’s doing this.” In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, it’s hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.

Bolding mine to highlight the relevant parts.

 

There are two ways to look at this:

 

A. Brandon knows that the Voice is Not Real and was amazed how as a kid he always thought the Voice was Real but RJ dropped all these clues indicating it was Rand's delusion all along.

 

B. Brandon knows that the Voice is Real and was amazed how as a kid he always thought the Voice was Real but RJ dropped all these clues indicating it was Rand's delusion all along, but in fact Brandon was correct as a kid and RJ was just being misleading.

[Mik]

Wow...that GeekDad interview is as close to a smoking gun as were going to get on this subject.

 

“No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he’s seeing part of his past life, but he’s going insane. It’s the immense pressure that’s doing this."

 

Now I understand Luckers point of view but based on what I personally believe this pretty much closes the deal.

How so? That quote you posted is exactly what RJ did in the books all the way up to Semi's speech. BS is effectively just telling us how he experienced the Rand/LTT connection -as a reader-.

 

Only after your quoted bit, does he introduce the quotes and all he says there is "Yes, I sympathize with Rand"

 

 

BS: Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I’d been told that “Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad,” but I didn’t accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand’s head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he’d promised: “No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he’s seeing part of his past life, but he’s going insane. It’s the immense pressure that’s doing this.”

Up untill here it's just BS enjoying the books as the books come out and BS matures. It tells us nothing new or wierd. Just how he experienced the writing of RJ -literally across the course of the books- and how it culmanates in Semirhages little speech. That's all folks.

 

No matter how hard Terez shouts 'Huzah' and makes others look like persisting fools. (especially over at Theoryland)

 

In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, it’s hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.

This is the only line where BS introduces the notes and it only tells us what the interviewer asks; Yes, I sympathize.

Big whoop!

 

 

Like I told Terez @ Theoryland:

"You never escape the traps you spin yourself"

She's stuck in her own mind just as much as I am in mine.

 

And just as much as Lews Therin who mindtrapped himself after he Sealed the Bore (his Dragon Soul) & overloaded his Body with Saidin (creating Dmount). Yes, Lews Therin the man died. But his Mind survived and found it's way back to it's (Dragon Soul), currenty owned by mr. Al'Thor.

 

Anybody ever wondered why there are Prophecies concerning the Dragon that absolutely need to be met?

Just for kicks? Why did the Reborn Dragon needed to be born on Dragonmount? For fun? Or to start restoring a connection to a trapped mind? Why did the Reborn Dragon had to draw the Sword that could not be Touched? Again for kicks? Or to further restore a link to a trapped Mind?

 

Oh well... *rafo*

[Suttree]

Ahhh Mik, how I've missed reading your posts...now all we need is for Felix Pax/Dida to make a comeback.

[FarShainMael]

I don't think there was a Prophecy about the birthplace of the DR.. just Gitara's Foretelling; or rather, since it seemed to coincide with the birth, her remote perception of that event.

 

(Just being picky. Take no notice..)

[Terez]

There were several prophecies about his birthplace - hence why everyone knew he would be born on Dragonmount.

[FarShainMael]

Sorry - you're right. forget the comment.

[Mik]

I don't think there was a Prophecy about the birthplace of the DR.. just Gitara's Foretelling; or rather, since it seemed to coincide with the birth, her remote perception of that event.

 

(Just being picky. Take no notice..)

Hey. I got no problem with picky! Picky is good!

 

Gitara's Foretelling was in adition to the KC. Not that it matters much, since the KC is nothing but a collection of what Gitara experiences; a Foretelling about the Dragon since the WoS.

 

“My name is Rand al’Thor. I am a shepherd. My father is Tam al’Thor, and my mother was—”

 

Moiraine had paused for him, but now her unchanging voice cut him off, soft and relentless. “The Karaethon Cycle, the Prophecies of the Dragon, says that the Dragon will be reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount, where he died during the Breaking of the World.

Elayne nodded. “I think so. I do not know much of the Prophecies of the Dragon, but I have heard a few lines. One I remember is, ‘On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man.’

 

 

Ahhh Mik, how I've missed reading your posts...now all we need is for Felix Pax/Dida to make a comeback.

Ouch. That stung.

It's not like I'm saying Luca is the friggin Dragon ffs.

Yuck.

 

Why was it so important to the Pattern that Rand was born on the slopes of Dragonmount?

 

EDIT: Heh. FarShainMael went ninja!

[Terez]

Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I’d been told that “Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad,” but I didn’t accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand’s head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he’d promised: “No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he’s seeing part of his past life, but he’s going insane. It’s the immense pressure that’s doing this.” In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, it’s hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.

Bolding mine to highlight the relevant parts.

 

There are two ways to look at this:

 

A. Brandon knows that the Voice is Not Real and was amazed how as a kid he always thought the Voice was Real but RJ dropped all these clues indicating it was Rand's delusion all along.

 

B. Brandon knows that the Voice is Real and was amazed how as a kid he always thought the Voice was Real but RJ dropped all these clues indicating it was Rand's delusion all along, but in fact Brandon was correct as a kid and RJ was just being misleading.

The second option doesn't make sense because of the way he said the bomb was dropped with Semirhage. When he read that, he realized Rand was hearing the voice because he was insane (which is what Semirhage said). It would make no sense for him to talk about it in that way if the notes had contradicted that 'bomb' in KOD. Before then, he didn't want to accept that voice as Rand going mad. He preferred to believe that it was another person, rather than a delusion.

 

The meaning is clear, and only those with the motive still hang on to their previous theories. Rand is remembering his past life, but the illusion that his past life is actually there and talking to him is a product of madness. Very simple stuff.

[FarShainMael]

@Mik: being perfect is soooooo boring..

[JamesL85]

I've always assumed LTT has been in Rand's head from the first time he seized Saidin. That was how he always managed to know how to do something without knowing. How else could LTT seize Saidin and create Deathgates in KoD? Not only did LTT show him how, but knew what it was called.

 

Not saying it's 100% the reason, but it's something to think about.

 

James

[Terez]

I've always assumed LTT has been in Rand's head from the first time he seized Saidin.

Most people did (especially people named James L).

 

That was how he always managed to know how to do something without knowing.

The memories. We act on our memories subconsciously all the time, without thinking about where our knowledge was obtained.

 

How else could LTT seize Saidin and create Deathgates in KoD?

Insanity.

 

Not only did LTT show him how, but knew what it was called.

Rand knew what they were called. Lews Therin didn't have to tell him.

[jemron]

Just to help me out, could someone please briefly describe the two conflicting theories on this? Luckers' vs. Terez's? I'm trying to decide which camp I'm in :)

[Terez]

Just to help me out, could someone please briefly describe the two conflicting theories on this? Luckers' vs. Terez's? I'm trying to decide which camp I'm in :)

Luckers' theory is not exactly representative of anyone else. It's an attempt to play semantics and bridge the gap between the 'construct' and 'real' theories (and IMO, not a very logical attempt at all). If you'd like, you can read it a little further down the page on this forum. My write-up on the subject is here...and it's an attempt to be relatively even-handed, and doesn't really reflect how I feel about it completely (and it definitely doesn't reflect the quote given above...which changes everything).

[Kahsm]

Just to help me out, could someone please briefly describe the two conflicting theories on this? Luckers' vs. Terez's? I'm trying to decide which camp I'm in :)

Luckers' theory is not exactly representative of anyone else. It's an attempt to play semantics and bridge the gap between the 'construct' and 'real' theories (and IMO, not a very logical attempt at all). If you'd like, you can read it a little further down the page on this forum. My write-up on the subject is here...and it's an attempt to be relatively even-handed, and doesn't really reflect how I feel about it completely (and it definitely doesn't reflect the quote given above...which changes everything).

 

I'm not sure how close my interpretation is to Lucker's, but this doesn't change anything for me either. Though I guess I never thought LTT was 'real' as in being an actual entity in Rand's head. RJ said Rand had two personalities; that second personality was a result of the memories, which were 'partly' caused by the taint (as Sanderson said), being disjointed with Rand's own.

 

So in a moment when Rand thinks LTT was trying to take over channeling, it was just the 'muscle' memory that he got from his past life that was guiding him, but he didn't have the actual memory to know what he was instinctively doing. Thus his conscious perspective is that LTT was taking over. Upon enlightenment, he realized that it was himself doing it all along, he puts the memories into order with his own, and now truely 'owns' them, thus his comment on how they are not separate and never were. In truth, LTT never existed, just his memories that were separated out by Rand's mind into a separate personality.

 

Call that insanity if you want, I suppose it truly is, but it's more of a lesser-insanity based on a real affliction. Rand is basically mentally ill (extra memories) which caused a predisposition to a fractured personality. Where's his taint-fueled insanity that's not catalysed by LTT's memories? Something like seeing Fades in every shadow or something more dangerously, truly insane like that? Seems he never gets nearly as crazy as he should have.

[jemron]

After reading both sides (Luckers and Terez) I'm forced to conclude that Terez was the most in-line with what I believe.

 

Great reads by the way. You both did marvelously. After reading some of Terez's comments about RJ, I was once again struck by just how brilliant RJ was. And I was again saddened by his passing. No question, BWS is great too, but RJ was truly gifted and very brilliant, and I think the WoT lost a lot of genius and understanding when BWS took the helm. RJ is so very missed.