Egwene should be doing more in the borderlands.

[Suttree]

How am i flat out wrong about Tamra's orders?

 

Look mate, you're sounding rather frantic take a breath and look at things logically. You are wrong about Tamra's orders because you said:

 

During the Aiel War when Tamra Ospenya was the Amyrlin seat she ordered all Aes Sedai from the tower and sent them to go about healing of all the nations damaged by the Aiel.

 

Which has been explained to you by multiple posters as never happening. We know from NS she sent all those sisters to heal men in the aftermath of the Battle of the Shining Walls. It is named such because the battle was in sight of the WT. Healing wounded from a battle outside your city is quite different than sending "all AS from the Tower" to heal all "nations" damaged during the Aiel War.

 

it would be logical to send out other aes sedai to other continents to heal other countries.

 

Now you're saying she sent AS to Seanchan?

 

i dont have the book but i remember a quote from moiraine "every sister with the smallest healing ability was sent from the tower"

 

True to deal with the aftermath of the battle which was on the WT's doorstep.

 

heck there would have been sisters already there, so either way sisters would have been healing the other nations, even if they were on tamra's orders to do something or not the result is the same.

 

So we have gone from Tamra sending "every AS" in the WT to heal "all nations" damaged by the Aiel to "well Tamra didn't order it but I'm sure their advisors helped out a bit"?!?! Over two years the Aiel had driven to just outside of Tar Valon. AS had organized the "grand alliance" to make a stand in that spot. No one knew what the the Aiel goal was, it is safe to say just about every available sister would already have been recalled back to the Tower to help with its possible defense.

 

What do nobles have to do with her being ammyrlin i see them no way connected? care to explain? Perrin gives orders to nobles and there obeyed oh wait we better raise him ammyrlin now since a noble listened :|:|:|:|.

 

Quite simple, she treated with foreign powers as the Amrylin. Just as Perrin treated with nobles as Lord of the TR. In both cases their authority was recognized and deals made with that authority are binding. Far more important though, is the part of that post you skipped. All of Egwene's new policy & decrees made as Amrylin with the rebel AS still hold. Romanda and Lelaine were not all that happy with a good number of them. If her time before the WT doesn't count why were none of them deemed illegal or not binding?

 

 

So you just said its better for egwene to sit around for a month and let maradon fall, and not even send any healing to the other armies within a month while she was fretting over gawyn and tower squabbles?

 

I never said anything of the sort, stop building straw men. What I said was:

While admittedly somewhat underwhelming, Egwene's response upon hearing news of the Borderland invasion was to immediately co-opt the blue network and set it to gathering more intelligence. We don't yet know what she will do with the information she receives. I would reserve judgement on how she deals with the Borderland situation until aMoL. If you are going to place blame look first to the Borderland rulers for stripping their armies and cruising around the southland instead of protecting their realms.

[NitroS]

 

 

Which has been explained to you by multiple posters as never happening. We know from NS she sent all those sisters to heal men in the aftermath of the Battle of the Shining Walls. It is named such because the battle was in sight of the WT. Healing wounded from a battle is quite different than being sent to heal all "nations" damaged by the Aiel War.

 

 

True to deal with the aftermath of the battle which was on the WT's doorstep.

 

 

 

So we have gone from Tamra sending "every AS" in the WT to heal "all nations" damaged by the Aiel to "well Tamra didn't order it but I'm sure their advisors helped out a bit"?!?! Over two years the Aiel had driven to just outside of Tar Valon. AS had organized the "grand alliance" to make a stand in that spot. No one knew what the the Aiel goal was, it is safe to say just about every available sister would already have been recalled back to the Tower to help with its possible defense.

 

What do nobles have to do with her being ammyrlin i see them no way connected? care to explain? Perrin gives orders to nobles and there obeyed oh wait we better raise him ammyrlin now since a noble listened :|:|:|:|.

 

Quite simple, she treated with foreign powers as the Amrylin. Just as Perrin treated with nobles as Lord of the TR. In both cases their authority was recognized and deals made with that authority are binding. Far more important though, is the part of that post you skipped. All of Egwene's new policy & decrees made as Amrylin with the rebel AS still hold. Romanda and Lelaine were not all that happy with a good number of them. If her time before the WT doesn't count why were none of the deemed illegal or not binding

 

 

So you just said its better for egwene to sit around for a month and let maradon fall, and not even send any healing to the other armies within a month while she was fretting over gawyn and tower squabbles?

 

 

Firstly we dont know what tamra done for her 6 year reign of ammyrlin. we know barely anything of what she did. How do you know she didnt order the healing of the nations? secondly you just said we can assume she called them all back to protect the tower, if we assume that we can assume that she sent sisters out to help other nations. further iterating my fact that tamra was more active then egwene has been.

 

Your whole perrin quote just supported my statement, perrin a self acclaimed (follower claimed*) lord was able to give out orders because they believed he was a lord, when he didnt get his formal title to the end of TOM. Thankyou for proving that ammyrlin was a false ammyrlin. Also egwene claimed to be Aes Sedai which gave her respect and power at the start with the Aiel, guess that mkes her aes sedai according to your logic. You still havent replied to my president analogy besides saying im wrong and debate closed (you must be an excellent debater in high school)

 

Why didnt you reply to my oppinion that egwene said she was a false ammyrlin herself and needed to be raised otherwise the sisters wouldnt accept her, she explicitly said she was raised by rebels which was wrong and needs to be officially raised.

 

So you just said its better for egwene to sit around for a month and let maradon fall, and not even send any healing to the other armies within a month while she was fretting over gawyn and tower squabbles?

 

You said your judgement wasnt made up, which means you think it could be a good idea which is beyond stupidity, when for that one month nothing occured in the tower.

 

Moiraine described Tamra as just fair and nice, where egwene is coniving, by expressing her power through holes in tower law such as the law of war, and getting control over rand.

 

just think ill quote myself as this responds to the main aim of this thread

 

So you just said its better for egwene to sit around for a month and let maradon fall, and not even send any healing to the other armies within a month while she was fretting over gawyn and tower squabbles?

[Mats Spare Hat]

You all ever notice that in the same chapter whence Egwene learns of the Borderlands being invaded, that it's the Hall that's given authority, by vote, over the forces of the Tower?

 

As to say in the very same hour, when Egwene first learns of invasion in the Borderlands, it has become the duty of the Hall to prosecute War.

 

It's on the Hall, not Egwene. Chapter 27, ToM.

[sleepinghour]

You all ever notice that in the same chapter whence Egwene learns of the Borderlands being invaded, that it's the Hall that's given authority, by vote, over the forces of the Tower?

 

As to say in the very same hour, when Egwene first learns of invasion in the Borderlands, it has become the duty of the Hall to prosecute War.

 

It's on the Hall, not Egwene. Chapter 27, ToM.

The Hall was given authority over the Tower army, not the Aes Sedai. Nothing stops Egwene from sending a group of Green sisters to the Borderlands, or at the very least proposing it to the Hall. The Borderlands would have more use of Aes Sedai who can provide gateways and Healing as well as kill Shadowspawn more easily than soldiers.

[Suttree]

we know barely anything of what she did. How do you know she didnt order the healing of the nations?

 

Because it clearly says in NS that she ordered the AS out to help those injured in the battle, not that she sent them out to heal the Nations. Anything more than that is guess work and the assumption that she could have since we don't know, falls under the fallacy of omission(but I'm the one who was bad at HS debate?) All you have offered in support of your argument is guess work if not outright constructions of your imagination.

 

Your whole perrin quote just supported my statement, perrin a self acclaimed (follower claimed*) lord was able to give out orders because they believed he was a lord, when he didnt get his formal title to the end of TOM. Thankyou for proving that ammyrlin was a false ammyrlin. Also egwene claimed to be Aes Sedai which gave her respect and power at the start with the Aiel, guess that mkes her aes sedai according to your logic. You still havent replied to my president analogy besides saying im wrong and debate closed (you must be an excellent debater in high school)

 

Seriously Nitros you've been reduced to sounding like a little kid. I haven't said your wrong I've been proving you wrong from the text while you keep fabricating things that never happened. The Egwene AS/Aiel logic is in no way similar. No group of AS ever raised her! It was a lie on Egwene's part. As Amrylin she was raised in Salidar by AS in accordance with WT law. Again since you have no logical answer you skip the most important part.

 

All of Egwene's new policy & decrees made as Amrylin with the rebel AS still hold. Romanda and Lelaine were not all that happy with a good number of them. If her time As Amrylin before the WT doesn't count why were none of them deemed illegal or not binding

 

Why didnt you reply to my oppinion that egwene said she was a false ammyrlin herself and needed to be raised otherwise the sisters wouldnt accept her, she explicitly said she was raised by rebels which was wrong and needs to be officially raised.

 

I didn't respond because as with much of what you've said in this thread it is wrong. She never said she was a "false" Amrylin, she never "scoffed" at the rebels as you said earlier, she never said being raised by the rebels was wrong. These are all fabrications on your part. What she said was:

 

ToM

"I was raised by the rebels, Siuan. Egwene said sternly. "These women deserve the chance to stand for me as well. Otherwise I will never have a claim to their loyalty. The ceremony must be performed again."

 

Notice she says nothing about not having authority or being a proper Amrlylin. Driving this home more is WT AS call her Mother before the ceremony takes place.

 

So you just said its better for egwene to sit around for a month and let maradon fall, and not even send any healing to the other armies within a month while she was fretting over gawyn and tower squabbles?

 

What timeline are you going off? You're saying there was a month between Egwene hearing of the Borderland troubles and the end of ToM. That is false.

 

Moiraine described Tamra as just fair and nice, where egwene is coniving, by expressing her power through holes in tower law such as the law of war, and getting control over rand.

 

Oh well in that case Tamra must be the better Amrylin then.

 

Look the bottom line is it hasn't been a month since she heard about Maradon. As with many other things in this thread you are wrong. She finds out in a "Call to Stand" which is over half way through ToM. When she finds out she sets the blue network to gathering intelligence and we don't yet know what her response will be.

[Mats Spare Hat]

You all ever notice that in the same chapter whence Egwene learns of the Borderlands being invaded, that it's the Hall that's given authority, by vote, over the forces of the Tower?

 

As to say in the very same hour, when Egwene first learns of invasion in the Borderlands, it has become the duty of the Hall to prosecute War.

 

It's on the Hall, not Egwene. Chapter 27, ToM.

The Hall was given authority over the Tower army, not the Aes Sedai. Nothing stops Egwene from sending a group of Green sisters to the Borderlands, or at the very least proposing it to the Hall. The Borderlands would have more use of Aes Sedai who can provide gateways and Healing as well as kill Shadowspawn more easily than soldiers.

 

 

And yet it'd be completely irresponsible to send a group of sisters, without the support of massed armed forces into the most massive invasion since the Trolloc Wars, having no clue as to the disposition of Borderland forces, the whereabouts of those currently in command authority, the location of said forces (turns out they're south of southbumblecrap), or for that matter the location of where said invasion forces are invading from, precisely.

 

As for providing gateways & healing...Common, people want to see them blow sh*t up and nuke the bejesus out of Trollocs, like Rand in ToM. If that doesn't smack of active offensive involvement in armed conflict, the role of which Aes Sedai would play on such a stage against Trollocs & Shadowspawn, aka the Armed Forces of the White Tower...They're part of the army bbuuuuuuddy *Paulie Shore reference

 

Who's in charge of the Army again? Why hasn't the Hall from sent the forces of the Tower to the Borderlands?

 

When it comes down to it, Egwene & the Hall are acting just as Aes Sedai across history have since the Breaking. Before & during the Trolloc Wars, organizing the Compact of 10 Nations, Tamra Ospenya organizing the Grand Alliance for the Battle of the Shining Walls at the end of the Aiel War, Egwene banding together nations & massing forces in support for the Last Battle.

 

You want to see Aes Sedai die real quick? Send groups of AS to the Borderlands, who we know don't have the ability or strength in the power to affect the kind of outcome that it's shown very very few channelers alive do posses, having no clue where to go, who to trust, who's in charge, who's friendly, where the bad guys are coming from, and without an Army, on the eve of if not the opening quarter of TG...

 

I dunno about you people, but if I were a darkfriend/black ajah/trolloc/fade/evil doer, I'd be smacking my lips at the prospect of isolated dipsticks dumb enough to venture out like nincompoops.

 

For craps sake fellas, the Borderlands aren't the be all/end all of Tarmon Gai'don. Would you rather dictate how the Last Battle starts, or decide how it's going to end.

[Durinax]

I would rather do something to dictate where it starts. after all the defences are now totally overrun, the light has inferior numbers, inferior/green troops.

 

Fighting on ones own land is typically devastating to the land, especially when channellers are involved (and they will be)

 

 

 

but then again I am starting to think the borderlanders where brought south so that the southern armies could meld with them so that they have a strong backbone of shadowspawn tested veterens to hold off the routs that would likely have ensued if southern armies faced trolloc charges

[Mats Spare Hat]

I would rather do something to dictate where it starts. after all the defences are now totally overrun, the light has inferior numbers, inferior/green troops.

 

Fighting on ones own land is typically devastating to the land, especially when channellers are involved (and they will be)

 

 

 

but then again I am starting to think the borderlanders where brought south so that the southern armies could meld with them so that they have a strong backbone of shadowspawn tested veterens to hold off the routs that would likely have ensued if southern armies faced trolloc charges

 

 

Down the road, from a writing perspective that could end up being the case. Maybe RJ was like hmm, what's a wrinkle I can throw in here...Oh noes, they're not where they're supposed to be! But wait! It'll work out because... ..something like that, maybe.

 

Plot-wise however, in world, we know exactly why they, the armies, were brought south - with the Borderland rulers, to find, confront & quite possibly have to kill/attempt to kill Rand.

[David Selig]

I've said it before in other threads - the least the Aes Sedai should do is evacuate the refugees from the Borderlands cities which are under siege by the Trollocs. It's a total cakewalk with Travelling. It's criminal letting people get slaughtered by the Trollocs when you can help so easily. Especially given that the Borderlanders have always been allies of the White Tower, they even still pay tribute even though the Aes Sedai haven't helped them much in fighting the Trollocs in the last decades, probably centuries. Not helping them now is a disgrace.

 

And why not send the green Ajah out there to help and hone those battle skills? They sure can use some real combat experience. If they start getting overwhelmed, they can always Travel back, so the risk is minimal and the potential to save lives huge. There are so many ways Egwene and the Tower can help, yet instead they concentrate on petty politicking - in the same chapter when Egwene received the reports that the Borderlands are getting overrun by Trollocs, she and the Hall instead of doing anything about it, concentrated their attention on internal procedural rules - that's cynical and selfish to the extreme.

[Suttree]

Does anyone know for certain how many days between Egwene receiving word of Borderlands(happens in "A Call to Stand") and the FoM?

[Lacanos]

A lot of people seem to be taking an incredibly "oh it's theoretically possible with my knowledge so they should be doing it and shame on egwene that they aren't" approach.

I mean, if I was dropped into Egwene's role in ToM already knowing what was going to happen etc, I'd probably gather the entire tower, zoom over to Maradon and blow up some trollocs, then rendezvous at Tarwin's Gap on a ledge above Lan's battle and kill some more trollocs.

 

 

However, that's entirely impossible. Egwene's knowledge is incredibly limited for starters. She's told "the Borderlands are under attack". They're a big place, there's lots of places for them to be attacked. So she gathers more information. Seems pretty rational to me.

As for the next idea, my gathering the entire tower; that's presuming they just do what I say and don't want to discuss it or anything. Bit of a presumption, and to be honest not how the Aes Sedai operate.

 

Finally, there's a great difference between what an Aes Sedai is capable of in theory and in practice. In theory I could wander down to the blight, erect a barrier of air in front of me, lightning bolt some trollocs till I'm tired then travel away. But I don't think (m)any Aes Sedai has the skill, concentration and power to do this.

[Kahsm]

A lot of people seem to be taking an incredibly "oh it's theoretically possible with my knowledge so they should be doing it and shame on egwene that they aren't" approach.

 

Very much this.

 

I've been fairly silent on this thread, which is quite unlike me, particularly on Egwene/Aes Sedai things. The reason is because I can't really argue against these "she should have done this" comments, because there's not enough info to say "no, and this is why". But there's not enough info to say she should either.

 

Sheriam in tGH says there aren't enough Aes Sedai in the tower to do what must be done. So I don't know what sort of "office" duties are required. Then add to that all the Novices they need to teach now versus 40 in tGH when the super girls arrive. Egwene's families help, but I bet all the teaching drain the Sedai and the Accepteds. I'm not saying those are the reasons, just that there's a much bigger picture than we get to see.

[NitroS]

I've said it before in other threads - the least the Aes Sedai should do is evacuate the refugees from the Borderlands cities which are under siege by the Trollocs. It's a total cakewalk with Travelling. It's criminal letting people get slaughtered by the Trollocs when you can help so easily. Especially given that the Borderlanders have always been allies of the White Tower, they even still pay tribute even though the Aes Sedai haven't helped them much in fighting the Trollocs in the last decades, probably centuries. Not helping them now is a disgrace.

 

And why not send the green Ajah out there to help and hone those battle skills? They sure can use some real combat experience. If they start getting overwhelmed, they can always Travel back, so the risk is minimal and the potential to save lives huge. There are so many ways Egwene and the Tower can help, yet instead they concentrate on petty politicking - in the same chapter when Egwene received the reports that the Borderlands are getting overrun by Trollocs, she and the Hall instead of doing anything about it, concentrated their attention on internal procedural rules - that's cynical and selfish to the extreme.

exactly with travelling they should have done this instantly, in chapter 3 its 1 month till FOM then a few chapters later egwene finds out about the borderlands and should have known about maradon or suspect the blight creeping closer with the last battle so soon.

[NitroS]

A lot of people seem to be taking an incredibly "oh it's theoretically possible with my knowledge so they should be doing it and shame on egwene that they aren't" approach.

I mean, if I was dropped into Egwene's role in ToM already knowing what was going to happen etc, I'd probably gather the entire tower, zoom over to Maradon and blow up some trollocs, then rendezvous at Tarwin's Gap on a ledge above Lan's battle and kill some more trollocs.

 

 

However, that's entirely impossible. Egwene's knowledge is incredibly limited for starters. She's told "the Borderlands are under attack". They're a big place, there's lots of places for them to be attacked. So she gathers more information. Seems pretty rational to me.

As for the next idea, my gathering the entire tower; that's presuming they just do what I say and don't want to discuss it or anything. Bit of a presumption, and to be honest not how the Aes Sedai operate.

 

Finally, there's a great difference between what an Aes Sedai is capable of in theory and in practice. In theory I could wander down to the blight, erect a barrier of air in front of me, lightning bolt some trollocs till I'm tired then travel away. But I don't think (m)any Aes Sedai has the skill, concentration and power to do this.

its my understanding that each of the borderland nations each have a choke point (like tarwins gap) where they hold off and defend against trolloc attacks as i dont see how they can have that entire border covered seeing as it covers the whole map. If egwene needed information she has travelling send some messangers to the borderlanders for information of the locations, its like waiting for a letter of the information of where a war is instead of ringing someone up and finding out the way they wait on eyes and ears.

 

Her gathering information is costing thousands of lives, i dont see how her being proactive and sending sisters there (atleast to get the refugees out) is dangerous at all with the ability to travel.

 

A lot of people seem to be taking an incredibly "oh it's theoretically possible with my knowledge so they should be doing it and shame on egwene that they aren't" approach.

 

Very much this.

 

I've been fairly silent on this thread, which is quite unlike me, particularly on Egwene/Aes Sedai things. The reason is because I can't really argue against these "she should have done this" comments, because there's not enough info to say "no, and this is why". But there's not enough info to say she should either.

 

Sheriam in tGH says there aren't enough Aes Sedai in the tower to do what must be done. So I don't know what sort of "office" duties are required. Then add to that all the Novices they need to teach now versus 40 in tGH when the super girls arrive. Egwene's families help, but I bet all the teaching drain the Sedai and the Accepteds. I'm not saying those are the reasons, just that there's a much bigger picture than we get to see.

i understand where your coming from but the logical thing would be to slow down novice training and let the accepted focus on it, i mean they were training the 1000's of novices just in the rebel camp with a full tower where they only have a small number in the tower which is what 25 now since salidar took some to begin with? shouldnt be much trouble then what was happening in salidar with the use of families. so compared to salidar they just double or tripled the amount of sisters they had, the roles around the office? sitters, mistress of novices, ammyrlin and keeper is there anything besides those? as they had them in salidar to while managing the novices.

 

I still think egwene should be more active even if she only has a spare 20 sisters that can easily turn the tide of a battle, when 2 ashaman were able to keep legions of trollocs away at a bottle neck in the wall (i know it was a bottle neck but still) its pointless arguing the effect of sisters when we dont really have enough evidence of how destructive they can be when trying to cause maximum damage to trollocs.

 

If you shoot balefire does it keep going or does it instantly stop as soon as it hits 1 target? i was wondering if you balefired a line of trollocs would all of them die or just the first one?

[Suttree]

exactly with travelling they should have done this instantly, in chapter 3 its 1 month till FOM then a few chapters later egwene finds out about the borderlands and should have known about maradon or suspect the blight creeping closer with the last battle so soon.

 

Since when does few = 24? She learns of the Borderlands in chapter 27 "A Call to Stand".

 

If you shoot balefire does it keep going or does it instantly stop as soon as it hits 1 target? i was wondering if you balefired a line of trollocs would all of them die or just the first one?

 

It stops after hitting the 1st target.

[Saitan]

exactly with travelling they should have done this instantly, in chapter 3 its 1 month till FOM then a few chapters later egwene finds out about the borderlands and should have known about maradon or suspect the blight creeping closer with the last battle so soon.

 

Since when does few = 24? She learns of the Borderlands in chapter 27 "A Call to Stand".

 

If you shoot balefire does it keep going or does it instantly stop as soon as it hits 1 target? i was wondering if you balefired a line of trollocs would all of them die or just the first one?

 

It stops after hitting the 1st target.

 

That is not correct. We've seen multiple examples of the wall behind the target of Balefire was missing etc, but we've also seen that the way Balefire effects targets are different from time to time.

 

First time Rand use it it shoots out of his hands like a quick flash that goes a certain distance. It annihilates the darkhounds and leaves a hole in the wall behind.

 

Later when saving Mat it's the same thing but it leaves just a mark in the wall behind since he tried to reduce the power of it.

 

Later in Caemlyn it's a consistent bar of light like the light of a flashligt that will follow when he moves his hands and it leaves huge gaps in the walls. This is in T'A'R though so that might play a role but I seem to recall it being used the same way elsewhere in the books too.

 

In TGS it's used to destroy an entire fortress in one blow. Previously shooting it at a wall would leave a hole. Now everything connected to that wall is wiped out too. We know that it's said that entire cities had been wiped out by Balefire which could have been in a similiar way to this.

 

 

So it seems Balefire can be woven to have many different effects on targets.

[Lacanos]

A lot of people seem to be taking an incredibly "oh it's theoretically possible with my knowledge so they should be doing it and shame on egwene that they aren't" approach.

I mean, if I was dropped into Egwene's role in ToM already knowing what was going to happen etc, I'd probably gather the entire tower, zoom over to Maradon and blow up some trollocs, then rendezvous at Tarwin's Gap on a ledge above Lan's battle and kill some more trollocs.

 

 

However, that's entirely impossible. Egwene's knowledge is incredibly limited for starters. She's told "the Borderlands are under attack". They're a big place, there's lots of places for them to be attacked. So she gathers more information. Seems pretty rational to me.

As for the next idea, my gathering the entire tower; that's presuming they just do what I say and don't want to discuss it or anything. Bit of a presumption, and to be honest not how the Aes Sedai operate.

 

Finally, there's a great difference between what an Aes Sedai is capable of in theory and in practice. In theory I could wander down to the blight, erect a barrier of air in front of me, lightning bolt some trollocs till I'm tired then travel away. But I don't think (m)any Aes Sedai has the skill, concentration and power to do this.

its my understanding that each of the borderland nations each have a choke point (like tarwins gap) where they hold off and defend against trolloc attacks as i dont see how they can have that entire border covered seeing as it covers the whole map. If egwene needed information she has travelling send some messangers to the borderlanders for information of the locations, its like waiting for a letter of the information of where a war is instead of ringing someone up and finding out the way they wait on eyes and ears.

 

Her gathering information is costing thousands of lives, i dont see how her being proactive and sending sisters there (atleast to get the refugees out) is dangerous at all with the ability to travel.

 

They don't all have choke points. Otherwise it wouldn't have been possible to "go around" Maradon, which it patently would have been; heck, the entire "Tower system" in Kandor we're introduced to would never have worked.

You're still over-simplifying, yet I'd guess she probably does have people travelling for information.

Getting the non-fighters out I think you mean (there's no refugees) - is not so simple. Even a circle of 13 would probably take several hours to evacuate one city completely and that would be incredibly tiring. She can't afford to over-extend her forces nor let them grow too tired; she's still got the Seanchan to worry about.

 

At the end of the day, her first priority is reasonable. Dealing with Rand; it's been explained time and time again that she's completely right to question Rand (note, I'm not saying Rand isn't right; I'm saying that it's be ridiculous just to take him at his word when he's potentially mad *as far as she knows*).

[XXX]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

The problem is Rand is STILL percieved as mad... What he proposed to Egwene in front of the entire Hall didn't help in that respect.

 

Would you follow someone you thought was mad to battle even if he wasn't?

[Lacanos]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

Her job isn't to fall down and worship the Dragon either. She's meant to be one of the best informed people alive, and a leader in the battle against the Shadow. She's not of the same rank as Rand, obviously (even though she thinks she is), but she's not just meant to do exactly what he says.

She's meant to be challenging him, looking for answers etc. That's the best way she can help.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

Her job isn't to fall down and worship the Dragon either. She's meant to be one of the best informed people alive

Maybe she's meant to, but she isn't. She is in fact very, very badly informed, but sadly very sure that she knows everything.

 

She's meant to be challenging him, looking for answers etc. That's the best way she can help.

 

Before she challenges him (or anyone else for that matter), shouldn't she do her homework first? Have we seen her study old writings on the seals (btw. "watcher of the seals" is a joke, not to mention the usurpation) or the Breaking, talk to the Browns or Rand about it? Have we seen her read the Dragon prophecies the way we've seen Rand do it? Since we have not, Egwene is not in the position to question or challenge Rand or anybody else who has at least given some thought and time to the subject.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that so many posters somehow accept the premise that the title of Amyrlin somehow gives its bearer the qualifications to deal with anything, some automatic englightenement at least equivalent to VoG for Rand.Rand's expertise and gifts are tailor-made for the Last Battle and the sealing. Egwene dealt with other things, learned other things, gained her experience in other things. Rand could as well challenge her dreaming methods or her knowledge of the Aes Sedai.

 

As to the subject of the thread , the Aes Sedai have been sitting in their ivory tower for years. Even Siuan was not able to change that. I don't blame Egwene for continuing the same attitude, especially since her worldview is in fact so narrow and concentrated mainly on the White Tower.

[Kahsm]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

Her job isn't to fall down and worship the Dragon either. She's meant to be one of the best informed people alive

Maybe she's meant to, but she isn't. She is in fact very, very badly informed, but sadly very sure that she knows everything.

 

She's meant to be challenging him, looking for answers etc. That's the best way she can help.

 

Before she challenges him (or anyone else for that matter), shouldn't she do her homework first? Have we seen her study old writings on the seals (btw. "watcher of the seals" is a joke, not to mention the usurpation) or the Breaking, talk to the Browns or Rand about it? Have we seen her read the Dragon prophecies the way we've seen Rand do it? Since we have not, Egwene is not in the position to question or challenge Rand or anybody else who has at least given some thought and time to the subject.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that so many posters somehow accept the premise that the title of Amyrlin somehow gives its bearer the qualifications to deal with anything, some automatic englightenement at least equivalent to VoG for Rand.Rand's expertise and gifts are tailor-made for the Last Battle and the sealing. Egwene dealt with other things, learned other things, gained her experience in other things. Rand could as well challenge her dreaming methods or her knowledge of the Aes Sedai.

 

As to the subject of the thread , the Aes Sedai have been sitting in their ivory tower for years. Even Siuan was not able to change that. I don't blame Egwene for continuing the same attitude, especially since her worldview is in fact so narrow and concentrated mainly on the White Tower.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that a particular poster doesn't understand the point of the like 80 posts that inform him that she set the blue eyes-and-ears on getting more information, and that this poster can't figure out how that stands in stark contrast to their opinion that she's, "very sure that she knows everything".

[Mats Spare Hat]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

 

Towers of Midnight, Chapter 27. As far as goings on with the Aes Sedai, the White Tower, and thus everything that goes along with that organization on a whole, it is indeed Egwene's 'job', she's the sole authority, again, as far as the Aes Sedai are concerned, to deal with Rand.

 

In contrast to your wording, having the authority as leader of the AS carries a bit more umph(if you will) than joe blow Monarch, who doesn't have superpowers at their beck and call.

 

It'd be kind of like saying, for example, it isn't anymore the job of the President of the United States to deal with <insert possibly crazy person threatening to free bigtime evil here> than it is for the President of Sri Lanka...?

 

I'm saying internally with the Aes Sedai, it's her job to deal with Rand. As the leader of the most powerful city-state, wielder of & leader of those who can blow crap up with their brains, etc. etc. It comes down to being in a position from which to affect the greatest change, and having the gumption to do so as a result of your ability and/or the resources at your disposal. To me, that'd be something of an inherent responsibility on Egwene's part, her job.

 

 

If a known crazy man's traipsing around the neighborhood, are you going to let the neighbors let out their cat, or loose your rottweiler?

 

As far as the Dragon leading the Last Battle, we don't know. We'll find out in the last book how it all goes down, but until then, what we do know for sure is that he has to be there for the Light to have a chance at winning, and that he will face the Dark One. His blood on the rocks, and so forth. Rand even states that he is going to Shayol Ghul, to break the Seals, for which to remake the Dark Ones prison. Nothing about leading, nothing about being some kind of General, nor being some ultimate authority over the forces of Light.

 

If you want to bring out some quotes/prophesies/interviews that confirm that he does, or will indeed lead... I mean I'm all ears?

[Suttree]

It does not cease to amaze me that so many posters somehow accept the premise that the title of Amyrlin somehow gives its bearer the qualifications to deal with anything, some automatic englightenement at least equivalent to VoG for Rand.Rand's expertise and gifts are tailor-made for the Last Battle and the sealing. .

 

This is part of it, Egwene has no idea that Rand has had enlightenment. Would you rather he be some despot that everyone is afraid to stand up to or question? As to Rand's expertise and the sealing you are forgetting that he isn't very enlightened on that subject. He has admitted that he doesn't know how to do it and has asked Min to find him the answer. Why not ask the WT to help as well?

 

That is not correct. We've seen multiple examples of the wall behind the target of Balefire was missing etc, but we've also seen that the way Balefire effects targets are different from time to time.

 

Guess I'm wrong then. Was going off descriptions of it hitting a person or thing and the stream and target disappearing. So you think it would be possible to kill multiple targets line up? That could be very useful.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

Her job isn't to fall down and worship the Dragon either. She's meant to be one of the best informed people alive

Maybe she's meant to, but she isn't. She is in fact very, very badly informed, but sadly very sure that she knows everything.

 

She's meant to be challenging him, looking for answers etc. That's the best way she can help.

 

Before she challenges him (or anyone else for that matter), shouldn't she do her homework first? Have we seen her study old writings on the seals (btw. "watcher of the seals" is a joke, not to mention the usurpation) or the Breaking, talk to the Browns or Rand about it? Have we seen her read the Dragon prophecies the way we've seen Rand do it? Since we have not, Egwene is not in the position to question or challenge Rand or anybody else who has at least given some thought and time to the subject.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that so many posters somehow accept the premise that the title of Amyrlin somehow gives its bearer the qualifications to deal with anything, some automatic englightenement at least equivalent to VoG for Rand.Rand's expertise and gifts are tailor-made for the Last Battle and the sealing. Egwene dealt with other things, learned other things, gained her experience in other things. Rand could as well challenge her dreaming methods or her knowledge of the Aes Sedai.

 

As to the subject of the thread , the Aes Sedai have been sitting in their ivory tower for years. Even Siuan was not able to change that. I don't blame Egwene for continuing the same attitude, especially since her worldview is in fact so narrow and concentrated mainly on the White Tower.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that a particular poster doesn't understand the point of the like 80 posts that inform him that she set the blue eyes-and-ears on getting more information, and that this poster can't figure out how that stands in stark contrast to their opinion that she's, "very sure that she knows everything".

 

I was going a little off-topic, more on general Egwene's attitude and not particularly in reference to the Borderlands. So while the Blues's eyes-and-ears could provide helpful there - and it is still very, very little action from a person who is seen by some on the boards as the best candidate for the world leader - they are absolutely useless in other areas where Egwene deemed it appropriate to take a firm stand without any supporting expertise (e.g. the sealing of the Bore).

 

Egwene's "know-it-all" attitude has been noticed and commented on in dozens of posts, even those by her fans, so a certain poster is kindly asked to allow me to stand by my opinion that Egwene's faith in her knowldege is not nearly as limited as it should be, to put it very mildly.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that so many posters somehow accept the premise that the title of Amyrlin somehow gives its bearer the qualifications to deal with anything, some automatic englightenement at least equivalent to VoG for Rand.Rand's expertise and gifts are tailor-made for the Last Battle and the sealing. .

 

This is part of it, Egwene has no idea that Rand has had enlightenment. Would you rather he be some despot that everyone is afraid to stand up to or question? As to Rand's expertise and the sealing you are forgetting that he isn't very enlightened on that subject. He has admitted that he doesn't know how to do it and has asked Min to find him the answer. Why not ask the WT to help as well?

 

I don't think that Rand shouldn't be questioned and challenged nor that he should have absolute power. I simply ask that Egwene, before challenging him, do her homework and at least try to learn something about it instead of assuming that the Amyrlin knows everything and should have a decisive influence on a very difficult thing she knows absolutely nothing about.

 

Egwene was basing her decision on her dream - which was ambigous - and biased and imperfect information that she got maybe as far back as book 1 (some rudimentary info on the Bore from Moiraine). We have seen not a single sentence with Egwene reading about the Bore, asking about the Bore or even thinking how the Sealing had been done.

 

You point out Rand's imperfect knowledge, but you have to admit he knows four things:

1. how he sealed the Bore in the first place.

2. that it went wrong.

3. that he is the one chosen by the pattern (Creator?) for this job and given special gifts in order to make victory of the Light possible

4. His general One Power knowledge is much more sophisticated than Egwene's .

 

All these points are relevant when we talk about the Bore. Egwene knows only point 2, which is universal knowledge. We could well say that in this area she is "a person from the street", her opinion is important only because of her office, not because of its merit.

 

Rand asked Min for help because of her expertise in Fel's philosophy and interpreting the prophecies. Rand respects Fel's philosophy because of "clear the rubble" point resonated with his own thoughts on the subject. So let Egwene bring in some valuable input instead of knee-jerk confrontation and Rand will be definitely obliged to hear her out.