Tel'aran'rhiod

[Leyrann]

There are some questions, or maybe discussion points, about TAR. The first: What about entering it? All Forsaken (and also Rand Sedai) can freely enter it. Do you think they are all Dreamers? Not likely. For men, it is even rarer than for women, and here we have nine men who can enter TAR. So entering TAR has nothing to do with Dreaming. Or, at least, you can enter TAR without being a Dreamer. So maybe everyone can learn entering TAR, but it's just more likely to learn it for Dreamers. And a Forsaken somewhere thought about changing things, and that he/she didn't have very much control, but enough to wear what he/she wanted. So also not-Dreamers can get more control than Siuan (for example) has by now. I don't believe those Forsaken always enter in the flesh.

 

What do you think about it?

 

I also would not complain about other things of TAR (which I can't think of at the moment) being discussed here.

[Din]

Forsaken who are unable to enter via dreaming are at least able to enter physically via the power.

[OptimusPrime]

I cant remember which character explained it, but Im pretty sure anyone can dream themselves into T'A'R, but are usually there for mere moments. As for going there physically... I dont have Fires of Heaven with me so I cant quote, but Rand opened a gateway to T'A'R, so its not that not many men can do it, its that not many men (aside from Rand, Demandred, Rahvin, Moridin etc) know the weave. But thats all going there physically is, its just a gateway, another weave.

 

Slayer is a different matter, of course. I wish we had the full explanation behind him and his abilities.

 

Arent there certain places-like Rhuidean-that dont exist in T'A'R?

[Kahsm]

Dreamer and Dreamwalking are two different talents. BS said Rand is not a dreamer. I'm still not 100% sure where the lines are drawn between each talent because while Dreamers seem to just do the foretelling stuff and DWs enter T'A'R, BS also qualifies his statement with a note that Rand "does have uncommon power over his dreams" which means dreamers must also have some control of their own dreams at least.

 

BS also said at least one forsaken is a "dreamer", and he thinks one of each gender. But he didn't mention walking afaik.

[Luckers]

I also recall him mentioning that strength in spirit would allow you to touch TAR, with training. Likely this wouldn't have the same strength as a true dreamwalker.

[rageofwar1978]

i think though im not sure but i seem to remember that in the aol there were relatively common weaves of spirit that when used before sleeping would allow the user to enter TAR. the ter angreal that allow the user to enter TAR were based upon those weaves. it stands to reason that the chosen all have knowledge of those weaves.

[Leyrann]

Chosen? Are you a Darkfriend?

[True Source Creator]

BS also said at least one forsaken is a "dreamer", and he thinks one of each gender. But he didn't mention walking afaik.

Do we not know which one, then? I'd assume that if there's one of each gender, Lanfear/Cyndane is probably a Dreamer. She's the only Forsaken I've seen access Rand's (or anyone's) dreams, and Egwene was able to do that with Gawyn. And for male, probably Moridin/Ishamael. Those two seemt he most likely candidates.

[Kahsm]

BS also said at least one forsaken is a "dreamer", and he thinks one of each gender. But he didn't mention walking afaik.

Do we not know which one, then? I'd assume that if there's one of each gender, Lanfear/Cyndane is probably a Dreamer. She's the only Forsaken I've seen access Rand's (or anyone's) dreams, and Egwene was able to do that with Gawyn. And for male, probably Moridin/Ishamael. Those two seemt he most likely candidates.

 

We do not know which one. Though since either RJ or BS also said walkers are usually dreamers too, I would think either Mohg or Lanfear. Then the guys are a toss up.

 

Edit: hrm, or is it that dreamers are usually walkers... meh either way it's likely lanfear or mogh is a walker and therefore likely the dreamer.

 

Or, maybe lanfear is the dreamer and mogh is a walker which is why Lanfear claims TAR but Mogh is the real superstar there.

[Cybertrolloc]

BS also said at least one forsaken is a "dreamer", and he thinks one of each gender. But he didn't mention walking afaik.

Do we not know which one, then? I'd assume that if there's one of each gender, Lanfear/Cyndane is probably a Dreamer. She's the only Forsaken I've seen access Rand's (or anyone's) dreams, and Egwene was able to do that with Gawyn. And for male, probably Moridin/Ishamael. Those two seemt he most likely candidates.

It's probably a shorter list for Forsaken that we've never seen access dreams. Probably the Gars, anyone else?

 

I also think that we were at least able to agree that Dreamer denotes more the prophecy aspect of dream/TaR junk in some other trainwreck of a thread.

[Leyrann]

Maybe Ishy found out what the DO wanted by a prophetic dream. In which it happened. It would also mean that there is a small change Rand will win. Because things in a dream are more likely to happen than other things.

[Lacanos]

Dreamer and Dreamwalking are two different talents. BS said Rand is not a dreamer. I'm still not 100% sure where the lines are drawn between each talent because while Dreamers seem to just do the foretelling stuff and DWs enter T'A'R, BS also qualifies his statement with a note that Rand "does have uncommon power over his dreams" which means dreamers must also have some control of their own dreams at least.

 

BS also said at least one forsaken is a "dreamer", and he thinks one of each gender. But he didn't mention walking afaik.

 

 

Unless I'm very much mistaken:

 

All Dreamers are Dreamwalkers.

But not all Dreamwalkers are Dreamers.

 

I.E if you can "Dream", you can "Dreamwalk".

But just because you can "Dreamwalk", doesn't mean you can "Dream".

 

Perrin would be a dreamer I suspect, and Egwene certainly is. EDIT: Perrin is not a Dreamer, but IS a Dreamwalker - credit KP.

The ter'angreal give one the ability to dreamwalk, but not dream.

Rand certainly isn't a dreamer, and I can't think of him ever Dreamwalking either (afaik he only ever enters TAR in the flesh, or through his connection with Moridin).

 

As far as we know, Moghedien, Mesaana and Lanfear are certainly Dreamwalkers, but not necessarily Dreamers. We don't know about the others, nor do we know if any are dreamers. It's entirely possible they've all been entering in the Flesh for meetings.

[Lacanos]

I also recall him mentioning that strength in spirit would allow you to touch TAR, with training. Likely this wouldn't have the same strength as a true dreamwalker.

Define "strength" in TAR. Because as far as I can remember, there's no evidence to say anyone has any greater strength inherently through their ability (disregarding entering in the flesh). Rather, strength in TAR entirely comes from skill, and confidence in one's self image (as expressed by Hopper in ToM). This is where I think most people seem to be going wrong, for example by assuming Perrin being a Wolfbrother makes him by definition more powerful than the others. This isn't the case, but rather he has a better understanding of the dream than any other. Egwene is noted to realise how strength is derived during the dream battle in ToM.

[Kahsm]

I also recall him mentioning that strength in spirit would allow you to touch TAR, with training. Likely this wouldn't have the same strength as a true dreamwalker.

Define "strength" in TAR. Because as far as I can remember, there's no evidence to say anyone has any greater strength inherently through their ability (disregarding entering in the flesh). Rather, strength in TAR entirely comes from skill, and confidence in one's self image (as expressed by Hopper in ToM). This is where I think most people seem to be going wrong, for example by assuming Perrin being a Wolfbrother makes him by definition more powerful than the others. This isn't the case, but rather he has a better understanding of the dream than any other. Egwene is noted to realise how strength is derived during the dream battle in ToM.

 

I think the idea was that Rand may have "uncommon control" over his dreams because he's such a powerful channeler (and therefore quite strong with spirit). It has nothing to do with his willpower in T'A'R. So he doesn't need to be a dreamer in order to have that control over his own dreams. I stress his own dreams, so we're not talking T'A'R level stuff.

[Sharaman]

One of Mesaana's PoVs makes it clear that any channeler (and probably non-channelers as well given Bair and Seana) can be trained to enter TAR or dreams without ter'angreals and without gating. The ter'angreals are training aids.

Obviously natural talent counts - Halima was poor at this.

 

From what we've seen prophetic dreamers are also all DWs - Perrin, the Aiel WO and Egwene as well. Also probably Moridin and either Lanfear or Moggy, given that both were really strong at DW and at dream manipulation.

The other way around DW= dreamer is probably not true as someone said above.

 

It's also likely BTW that LTT will know this little datum about the FS- like all AOL AS he would have trained extensively in TAR and if Elan/ Meirin had been noted for Dreaming ability in the many years before they became Chosen, LTT would have known it.

 

That's two strikes against LTT incidentally given he's the most powerful of channelers - he can't Heal and he can't Dream.

 

Steddings, the Blight, Finnland, etc., are not accessible from TAR because they are somehow not part of the same world. Rhuidean was specially warded against TAR - maybe some sort of DSpike ter'angreal was used.

[Kahsm]

Perrin is not a dreamer or a dreamwalker, he's a wolfbrother. Completely different. Here are some quotes.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

Terez

Also, didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more? :p

Terez

And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I just want a male dreamer dangit!

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

 

Matt: Can a someone without the Talent for Dreamwalking or Dreaming, but with access to Tel'aran'rhiod through a ter'angreal be taught to find dreams?

Brandon: As far as I know, no.3   That's an 80%. The question they should be asking is could Perrin (be taught to find dreams.)

Matt: Can he?

Brandon: I don't think so

Matt: Well, what he can do is similar to dreaming and dreamwalking.

Brandon: But the wolves don't know about them.

Matt: Well...

Brandon: I'm not sure, but that's what I would be asking (paraphrased)

[Lacanos]

I also recall him mentioning that strength in spirit would allow you to touch TAR, with training. Likely this wouldn't have the same strength as a true dreamwalker.

Define "strength" in TAR. Because as far as I can remember, there's no evidence to say anyone has any greater strength inherently through their ability (disregarding entering in the flesh). Rather, strength in TAR entirely comes from skill, and confidence in one's self image (as expressed by Hopper in ToM). This is where I think most people seem to be going wrong, for example by assuming Perrin being a Wolfbrother makes him by definition more powerful than the others. This isn't the case, but rather he has a better understanding of the dream than any other. Egwene is noted to realise how strength is derived during the dream battle in ToM.

 

I think the idea was that Rand may have "uncommon control" over his dreams because he's such a powerful channeler (and therefore quite strong with spirit). It has nothing to do with his willpower in T'A'R. So he doesn't need to be a dreamer in order to have that control over his own dreams. I stress his own dreams, so we're not talking T'A'R level stuff.

 

 

But Luckers was talking about TAR..

An individual's dreams have nothing to do with TAR, or with dreaming (except that a dreamer [not a dreamwalker]) can enter other people's dreams.

Also, since when did Rand have uncommon control over his dreams due to being a powerful channeler? The only reference I can think of between dreams and spirit in Rand's case relates to his dreams being projected onto those nearby.

[Lacanos]

Perrin is not a dreamer or a dreamwalker, he's a wolfbrother. Completely different. Here are some quotes.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

Terez

Also, didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more? :p

Terez

And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I just want a male dreamer dangit!

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

 

Matt: Can a someone without the Talent for Dreamwalking or Dreaming, but with access to Tel'aran'rhiod through a ter'angreal be taught to find dreams?

Brandon: As far as I know, no.3   That's an 80%. The question they should be asking is could Perrin (be taught to find dreams.)

Matt: Can he?

Brandon: I don't think so

Matt: Well, what he can do is similar to dreaming and dreamwalking.

Brandon: But the wolves don't know about them.

Matt: Well...

Brandon: I'm not sure, but that's what I would be asking (paraphrased)

 

Brandon never says he's not a Dreamwalker, as he patently is. A dreamwalker is just a term invented to describe anyone able to enter TAR. I take the point about him not being a dreamer though, but I was merely trying to offer examples of the difference between a dreamer and a dreamwalker.

[Sharaman]

Perrin can enter TAR without aid - he's a DreamWalker. All wolfbrothers are DWs.

Perrin has had prophetic dreams - he's a dreamer.

Perrin can find and enter nightmares, which by definition are dreams.

He checks all the boxes - how he does it may be unusual.

[Lacanos]

Perrin can enter TAR without aid - he's a DreamWalker. All wolfbrothers are DWs.

Perrin has had prophetic dreams - he's a dreamer.

Perrin can find and enter nightmares, which by definition are dreams.

He checks all the boxes - how he does it may be unusual.

PK gave us Brandon quotes that set out that Perrin is not a dreamer quite explicitly.

Nightmares aren't "dreams", but rather a manifestation of a dream within TAR, therefore accessible by any dreamwalker, not just dreamers.

[Kahsm]

Perrin can enter TAR without aid - he's a DreamWalker. All wolfbrothers are DWs.

Perrin has had prophetic dreams - he's a dreamer.

Perrin can find and enter nightmares, which by definition are dreams.

He checks all the boxes - how he does it may be unusual.

 

Egwene can shape metals into objects using the OP, that doesn't make her a blacksmith.

[Hybrid]

That's a poor analogy.

 

Blacksmith is a job. It's not defined as someone who is capable of shaping metal into objects, but as someone who chooses to shape metal into objects. It's the choice that's crucial to the definition here. You can choose to become a blacksmith. You can't choose to become a Dreamer.

 

While Perrin has prophetic dreams, I'm guessing that the reason he's not a Dreamer per se is that he isn't a channeler. Dreaming, if I remember correctly, is a Talent.

[Lacanos]

That's a poor analogy.

 

Blacksmith is a job. It's not defined as someone who is capable of shaping metal into objects, but as someone who chooses to shape metal into objects. It's the choice that's crucial to the definition here. You can choose to become a blacksmith. You can't choose to become a Dreamer.

 

While Perrin has prophetic dreams, I'm guessing that the reason he's not a Dreamer per se is that he isn't a channeler. Dreaming, if I remember correctly, is a Talent.

Bair and another Wise One (the one that died in book 4?) can't channel yet are both dreamers.

 

A better analogy would be this.

 

I'm capable of getting from London to Edinburgh.

A Plane is capable of getting from London to Edinburgh.

That doesn't mean I'm a plane.

 

I.E. Just because Perrin has "foresights" while in TAR doesn't make him a dreamer. The method is substantially different.

[Sharaman]

That's a poor analogy.

 

Blacksmith is a job. It's not defined as someone who is capable of shaping metal into objects, but as someone who chooses to shape metal into objects. It's the choice that's crucial to the definition here. You can choose to become a blacksmith. You can't choose to become a Dreamer.

 

While Perrin has prophetic dreams, I'm guessing that the reason he's not a Dreamer per se is that he isn't a channeler. Dreaming, if I remember correctly, is a Talent.

Bair and another Wise One (the one that died in book 4?) can't channel yet are both dreamers.

 

A better analogy would be this.

 

I'm capable of getting from London to Edinburgh.

A Plane is capable of getting from London to Edinburgh.

That doesn't mean I'm a plane.

 

I.E. Just because Perrin has "foresights" while in TAR doesn't make him a dreamer. The method is substantially different.

Perrin's prophetic dreams and Egwene's are substantially similar in description.

More likely Brandon made an off-the-cuff inaccuracy as he did with Cyndane.

[Lacanos]

That's a poor analogy.

 

Blacksmith is a job. It's not defined as someone who is capable of shaping metal into objects, but as someone who chooses to shape metal into objects. It's the choice that's crucial to the definition here. You can choose to become a blacksmith. You can't choose to become a Dreamer.

 

While Perrin has prophetic dreams, I'm guessing that the reason he's not a Dreamer per se is that he isn't a channeler. Dreaming, if I remember correctly, is a Talent.

Bair and another Wise One (the one that died in book 4?) can't channel yet are both dreamers.

 

A better analogy would be this.

 

I'm capable of getting from London to Edinburgh.

A Plane is capable of getting from London to Edinburgh.

That doesn't mean I'm a plane.

 

I.E. Just because Perrin has "foresights" while in TAR doesn't make him a dreamer. The method is substantially different.

Perrin's prophetic dreams and Egwene's are substantially similar in description.

More likely Brandon made an off-the-cuff inaccuracy as he did with Cyndane.

They're substantially different. It's not one off-the-cuff remark, it's several.

Perrin's are "windows" while actually present in TAR, Egwene's are normal dreams with a special meaning. That said, I do remember Perrin entering one of Rand's dreams in book 3, so...?