*** ---> LTT ---> Rand

[WarkWark]

Hey everyone, I am new to these forums and I am sorry if this is an old thread brought back to life sorta thing, I just had a quick question about it.

 

So everyone talks about LTT being the oldest Dragon, but if this wheel has been repeating itself for so many years, and the DO says that "He he fights the dragon numerous times in the past" So did LTT hear the dragon before him in his head? Will Rand be in the next Dragons head if this isn't truly the last last battle? It just seems to me that after each of these times that the dragon would become more powerful after every time he was born, due to having more and more memories and skills then the time before based on the things that he does. But this would also suggest that every time the Dragon seals up the DO that the taint is released. Or was LTT the first Dragon affected by the taint?

[elmindreda]

just a point that the dragon wont really be getting stronger the memories it has that could make him madder and plus Ba'alzamon will still have the memories aswell

[WarkWark]

But if LTT also had the dragon before him in his head, and that dragon had the dragon before him in head, so on and so on. Then Rand technically has the most memories and power knowledge of any dragon ever.

[elmindreda]

yea but ba'alzamon also knows what they know

[Trib4l]

Remember that it's a 7 spoked wheel. The last time 'the dragon' would have heard the previous one in his head would have been 7 ages prior.

[RobertAlexWillis]

But if LTT also had the dragon before him in his head, and that dragon had the dragon before him in head, so on and so on. Then Rand technically has the most memories and power knowledge of any dragon ever.

 

Thats a big "if". There is no indication that is the case.

 

And Moridin doesn't seem to have any personal memories before the Age of Legends. In the Prologue to The Path of Daggers, Moridin's POV says:

 

That troubled him sometimes, enraged him, what knowledge might be lost in the turnings of the Wheel, knowledge he needed, knowledge he had a right to. A right!

 

Apparently he has no memories before the life of Elan Morin Tedronai, in the Age of Legends.

[KaptainKaos]

If we are talking about from Age to Age I don't believe there was exactly a Dragon or even a need for one in the Age previous to the Age of Legends. Robert Jordan has stated that there are Ages in the Wheel where channeling and the Dark One haven't even been discovered just like our own. The Age previous to the Age of Legends was ended with someone discovering how to channel and we presume that in this Age the Dark One wasn't free at all since the only way we know to create a Bore in the prison or to seal that Bore is to use the Power. I go along with the theory that the Age before the Age of Legends was our Age or at least a reflection of our Age and there is no need for a champion for the Light in our Age because we don't have a Dark One to even battle against (I know that is debatable and hopefully the President of Venezuela doesn't have an account on Dragonmount because I know he would reply that Bush is the Dark One in our Age but bear with me.) So I would say that to find a Dragon or Dragon-like hero for the Light before Lews Therin you would have to go back two Ages before the Age of Legends and we don't really have enough information to do that anywhere.

[Kadere]

Well I would figure all the memories would be lost when the Wheel went from the 7th age to the 1st. So LTT may have had someone in his head (though we didn't see that in the prolouge of EotW), but the guy in his head wouldn't have had anyone in his head in the first age. At least I wouldn't think.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Well WW, the truth is that at this point there is no definite answers to those questions. Or at least only RJ knows and he isn't telling ;)

 

As to the question of whether LTT is the oldest Dragon first we need to clear up a few things concerning semantics. Althought the soul that LTT and Rand share has been reborn many times throughout the turnings of the wheel, LTT is the only incarnation in which he was called "The Dragon." Rand is "The Dragon Reborn" by virtue that he is the incarnation that came immediatly following "The Dragon," and is called such because people still remember the origional Dragon. As to whether his next incarnation will be called "Dragon" is anybody's guess. So LTT is the oldest Dragon in the since that he is the first incarnation of the LTT/Rand soul to be called "Dragon" (if he were not then he would have also been called The Dragon Reborn). However, it is unlikely that LTT was the first incarnation of the LTT/Rand soul considring Ba'alzamon's claim to have fought him several times in the past.

 

As to whether LTT had any voices in his head the answer is that we just don't know. Many people theorize that the appearance of LTT in Rand's head is connected to the taint and its insuing insanity. That's not to say that the LTT is just Rand's imagination as this has been disproven by the fact that Rand does gain knowlege from LTT's memories. It is just saying that it is Rand's insanity that is allowing the LTT aspect of his soul to seep into his conscious mind. Basically, Rand has become schizophrenic, however, we may assume the in RJ's fictional world that all cases of schizophrenia and multiple personalities disorder are intrusions of a person's past lives upon the present.

 

Another interesting thing to remember is Ba'alzamon's claim that in some ages the LTT/Rand soul had become corrupted and went over to the Shadow. We do know that LTT went insane after he sealed the Bore due to the taint. Prehaps the incarnation just prior to LTT was one of these corrupted incanations of the LTT/Rand soul. Maybe LTT ended up with this dark voice in his head that that is what prompted him to break the world. Remember that when we meet LTT in the begining of tEotW he has no memories of commiting his crimes. Perhaps this was because his "voice" had completely overridden him and was in complete control of his body when he broke the world and killed his kin. Just a thought.

[WarkWark]

Well I meant turnings of the wheel, not ages exactly Kaptain/Kadere. But thanks for clearing that up Leopoled, even though it doesn't really answer the question, it is the best we will probaly ever receive anyhow, unless RJ cares to have a chapter about this, or posts something about this in a blog.

[Luckers]

I rather doubt the other Dragons heard voices. Thats something specific to Rand, likely the result of the taint. The fact that it is a real voice is not significant because we know from Graendal that such occurences of hearing the voices of previous facet personalities can occur naturally. Since the effect of the taint seems to vary it seems likely that it merely causes madness, and is not a specific state of insantiy in and of itself. Ergo, the possibility that the taint destabalized Rand enough that LTT's personality manifests itself is not unlikely.

[Zacharias]

I hate to break it to you guys, but even RJ probably has no real answer for questions like this.

 

Its a work of fiction and he needed a premise to write his book. The 'wheel of time' was the premise.

 

All the arguments about ages repeating and wether everything has happened before are a bit pointless, beause we're arguing over a concept that was simply used as a backdrop for this current story.

 

Dig too deep and, with no disrespect, you're really wasting your time. There is no answer.

[Luckers]

And i hate to break it to you, but the same argument can be made for religion, or sociology, or any other constructed reality. There is merit in the examination of thought, and only a simplistic mind would dismiss it so readily.

[seoman]

if the wheel turns the same way always, how can ishamael told LTT other posibilities in past lifes, the result must be always the same, or the turns of the wheel means that the pattern create the same conditions each turn, but the result could change depending the choices of the main threads.

And there is also the thousands of mirrors of this world, were LTT could has decided to take other alternatives, and the words of ishamael and arthur hawkwing get sense.

[KaptainKaos]

I hate to break it to you guys, but even RJ probably has no real answer for questions like this.

 

Its a work of fiction and he needed a premise to write his book. The 'wheel of time' was the premise.

 

All the arguments about ages repeating and wether everything has happened before are a bit pointless, beause we're arguing over a concept that was simply used as a backdrop for this current story.

 

Dig too deep and, with no disrespect, you're really wasting your time. There is no answer.

 

The assumptions are not disrespectful at all but they are posed with an obvious lack of knowledge. Robert Jordan has been thinking about and creating the Wheel of Time world for decades. There is no doubt in my mind that he has created this world completely including its history. From seeing his many responses to questions both good and completely bogus in the interviews and the Q and A's he has done I doubt that there are many questions about any facet of his world that you could ask him and he wouldn't have some sort of an explaination for. What I am saying is Robert Jordan has created as a history for the current state of his world cannot be called or even compared to simply a backdrop, some of us know almost as much about the history of the Wheel of Time world and what was what in the Age of Legends as we know about our own history, sure there are holes but they can be filled in as soon as the plot allows.

[Paladin]

Did LTT need a voice in his head? No forsakewn to fight, and LTT had propper training in using the one power. The Lord of the Morning and other titles were propbably his before he started battling the dark one so LTT had trainig in Tactics the power and everything else he needed. Rand needs a voice in his head. And I believe this is LTT. Rand has learned many weaves of saidin from LTT. as well as learning about the Forsaken. While in far madding he realises that he could draw the forsaken. He has never seen most of them yet he recognises tham on sight. He knows what tactics to use against Rhavin & Sammael, People whom he has never met and no one knows anything about thier personallities yet rand knows. I believe LTT is in rands head because he needs him. The patern gave rand a teacher, just to bad he is Crazy.

[Paladin]

Did LTT need a voice in his head? No forsakewn to fight, and LTT had propper training in using the one power. The Lord of the Morning and other titles were propbably his before he started battling the dark one so LTT had trainig in Tactics the power and everything else he needed. Rand needs a voice in his head. And I believe this is LTT. Rand has learned many weaves of saidin from LTT. as well as learning about the Forsaken. While in far madding he realises that he could draw the forsaken. He has never seen most of them yet he recognises tham on sight. He knows what tactics to use against Rhavin & Sammael, People whom he has never met and no one knows anything about thier personallities yet rand knows. I believe LTT is in rands head because he needs him. The patern gave rand a teacher, just to bad he is Crazy.

[teehee]

i think that LTT was not the first to be called Dragon because doesn't the DO say in book 6's prologue "all because of my ancient enemy dragon!"? and Ishamael may have said he knew the previous names but he was pretty crazy at the time, always implying that he was the DO. or maybe the DO told him! and maybe the Dragon would turn to the Shadow in the mirror worlds, that's what i always thought because rand says "i have never turned to you. i know that." in book 1 or 2 when he is talking to ba'alzamon and thinks he is the DO. And also their is not a Dragon in every age as Herid Fel says. in the first age their was no Last Battle because the people of the 2nd age (the AOL) were in a world of peace at first Thus they need at least an age of no war so the people will forget the DO.

[Zacharias]

And i hate to break it to you' date=' but the same argument can be made for religion, or sociology, or any other constructed reality. There is merit in the examination of thought, and only a simplistic mind would dismiss it so readily.[/quote']

 

Simplistic mind huh? Nice touch.

 

I would simply leave you with the observation that there are obvious plot holes when you analyse too deeply, especially when some of you are trying to analyse from the perspective that this is all real. You cant actully be right, because you are arguing about something intangible, about a reality drawn from one mans whim.

 

But yeah im not going to be a prick, talk about it all you want!

 

And i totally agree, the same argument can definetly be made for religion. :)

[Zacharias]

The assumptions are not disrespectful at all but they are posed with an obvious lack of knowledge. Robert Jordan has been thinking about and creating the Wheel of Time world for decades. There is no doubt in my mind that he has created this world completely including its history. From seeing his many responses to questions both good and completely bogus in the interviews and the Q and A's he has done I doubt that there are many questions about any facet of his world that you could ask him and he wouldn't have some sort of an explaination for. What I am saying is Robert Jordan has created as a history for the current state of his world cannot be called or even compared to simply a backdrop, some of us know almost as much about the history of the Wheel of Time world and what was what in the Age of Legends as we know about our own history, sure there are holes but they can be filled in as soon as the plot allows.

 

Once again no disrespect, but if you SERIOUSLY consider that you know more about the history of a fictional world, than you do about the world we live in, then it may be time to put down your book. Im not trying to be a jerk or funny, but thats extreme.

 

I LOVE these books, they're my favorite series ever, but surely you have to draw a line?

 

Anyway, yes RJ can give an answer for most things, and that was actually my point - his opinion is the only real opinion that matters here because all this is HIS reality. He is the creator.

 

And my point was that the actual concept of the 'wheel' is probably flawed in respects to some of the plot. Being a writer myself, when i read RJ's books i get the impression that it was a premise that he used to get the series going, and it doesnt always fit perfectly with the reality he's trying to create (for example the whole debate of whether TG has happened before etc). Things probably dont always add up, but thats fine as it IS a work of fiction. And ill be the first to admit the 'wheel of time' was indeed a great premise to base a work of fiction on.

[Luckers]

Anything that meaning, knowledge or thought can be drawn from is valid, including religion, and fiction--this being from one of the most devout athiests you're going to encounter.

 

Analagous experience can completely be just as valid as real experience. They are not mutually exclusive--indeed i'd suggest that without both a conceptual and physical existence, humans would be animals. It's a part of our Talos that the mental world makes up as much of our lives as the physical sustainable worlds... it's nessasary. And fiction allows the exploration of that which is otherwise inaccessable, in a manner that allows for the examination of that which we would otherwise not be able to bring ourselves to look at in the real world due to our personal involvement and subsequent lack of objectivity.

 

Except for love, art is the greatest achievement of hummanity, and always will be.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

the way i see it guys, LTT was "the dragon" and Rand is "the dragon REBORN" so if LTT had the memories of past dragons as well, wouldnt that make LTT the dragon reborn, and rand the dragon reborn reborn?

[Luckers]

We know that he is in any case. Rand's soul has been reborn countless times throughout history. So theoretically LTT should be the Dragon Reborn^infinity. And Rand the Dragon Reborn^infinity+one.

 

The name, the Dragon Reborn, is coined from the fact that the rebirth of the Dragon's soul was retold. As Moghedian says, it is the first time ever that a link between two incarnations of the same soul has been so incontravertably created. It is a human name, the first given to LTT because of the standard he bore, the second because in human memory Rand is the rebirth of the soul they know of as the Dragon. It indicates nothing of their nature.

[KaptainKaos]

What I am saying is Robert Jordan has created as a history for the current state of his world cannot be called or even compared to simply a backdrop, some of us know almost as much about the history of the Wheel of Time world and what was what in the Age of Legends as we know about our own history, sure there are holes but they can be filled in as soon as the plot allows.

 

Quoted Response: Once again no disrespect, but if you SERIOUSLY consider that you know more about the history of a fictional world, than you do about the world we live in, then it may be time to put down your book. Im not trying to be a jerk or funny, but thats extreme.

 

I LOVE these books, they're my favorite series ever, but surely you have to draw a line?

 

No disrespect taken again I see how what I said can be misinterpreted but all I meant was through reading the books you can get almost as much information about the history of the Wheel of Time 3000 years back as you can get from our world's histories about 3000 years back with about the same level of accuracy. My point is Jordan put a lot of information about the history of his world in the books including all individual stories of the heroes bound to the horn that keep getting reborn. I don't think that he put all that work in there not knowing exactly how each character and their reborn counterparts got from A to Z at least in a general if not specific way.

[Zacharias]

Interesting and well thought out responses.

 

Its all love here... long live the wheel of time!