The epicness of Mazrim Taim

[Kahsm]

Anyone left out there, other than me, who still thinks there is more to Taim than just being a DF/Dreadlord/Moridin? Usually I'd love to debate my position, but I recognize this as wishful thinking at this point.

 

All I've got is my feeling that Taim just seems too ambitious and independent to be a DF. Though at this point, I don't know what his role as a wildcard would be. We had Verin and we still have Fain. Team-unknown-purpose is a little full. We might even add Lanfear to that list...

 

I will be devastated if Taim turns out to be some scrub who dies in some dumb way a la Aginor. Similar to how some are worried about Demanded's role being lame after all the hype. So I'm looking for some crackpot theories to latch onto. I like the 100% insane personality takeover theory, but that doesn't suggest anything about his purpose in the plot.

 

Taim always seemed so much more interesting to me than Logain, and he got next-to-no screen time through the last half the series =(

[WhiskyJack]

Well he surely isn't one dimensional like most characters in WOT.

[mb]

All my theories are serious ones.

 

I have seen 3 possibilities for Taim::

-Taim being a Darkfriend

-Taim being one forced to the Shadow

-Taim being his own side

From what I read so far, I see a equal chance for each 3.

Furthest I read has been Gathering Storm.

[dexterryu]

My personal theory is that Taim is dead and has never been seen "on screen". I believe Demendred is the Taim we have seen on screen and that RJ has been playing a nice Aes Sedai truth bending trick by saying "Demandred is not Taim"

[WhiskyJack]

My personal theory is that Taim is dead and has never been seen "on screen". I believe Demendred is the Taim we have seen on screen and that RJ has been playing a nice Aes Sedai truth bending trick by saying "Demandred is not Taim"

 

 

And the fact that Demandred could not recognize an Asha'man is just a red herring...

[Remy Blobet]

Nothing behind this theory at all... But how about he's raising an army for Fain?

[Southpaw89]

or you know, he's just a trainer of male channelers for the shadow since black ajah are behind the women

[XXX]

Turned DF due to his ambition. He is to Rand in this age what Demandred was to LTT in the previous age.

[Kahsm]

or you know, he's just a trainer of male channelers for the shadow since black ajah are behind the women

 

 

Turned DF due to his ambition. He is to Rand in this age what Demandred was to LTT in the previous age.

 

You guys are boring. The idea that "so called Aiel" is something he picked up from a "master" is ridiculous. While someone might pick up mannerisms, or even turns of phrases, you don't pick up opinions based on thousands of year old info.

 

Here is what I mean. If Taim was told about old skool Aiel, he would not have the personal attachment to their oath-bending that would cause the level of disappointment to say "so called". If on the other hand, Taim's supposed master just had a habit of saying "so called Aiel" Someone like Taim would not just start saying that too just to "look cool" if he didn't know why. He's not a preteen boy mimicking someone cool -- He already thinks he's the coolest.

[Hybrid]

My personal little insane theory is that the man posing as Mazrim Taim is none other than Mazrim Taim. Mindblowing, I know.

[OptimusPrime]

I like this thread. I can legally be as weird and obsessive as I want! Hahahaha

 

Moridin Moridin Moridin Moridin. Rinse and repeat.

 

Taims introduction was the best scene in the entire series in my oppinion. I swear, if anyone who doesnt believe Taim is Moridin were to... just once... imagine that Taim knows Rand from the very beginning of that scene... none of it would feel weird. That guy oozes knowing whats going on, and not one person feels like that... apart from Moridin.

 

Rand tells you himself! "Only a madman would claim that name, if it wasnt his." The term madman is used very selectively in these books, and I think it was deliberate. Other people look at Nynaeve and her fear of spiders being a form of foreshadowing of the Moghedien business. That same stuffs going on here, with Taims introduction, specifically when Rand is contemplating that Taim might not be Taim. And then later on, we are led to believe that Rand has the Talent for recognising threads, yeah? Suddenly the term madman could possibly turn into a subconcious reference. Hello Ishamael, known madman.

 

Red on black... too in your face? In your face becomes red herring in these books, but when does it then become a next level of secrecy? "Let them dismiss everything obvious and then have something be true when it seems too obvious to be true." Hiding in plain sight. Ishamael right under Rands nose, and "nobody would be that blunt about it would they."

 

*cough*

 

So, erm, what else. Black aura in Winters Heart.

 

True Power disguise hides the sa'a Taim and Moridin arent that far apart in appearance when Rand used Mask of Mirrors he made himself nothing like his real appearance True Power is better at changing stuff than the One Power.

 

It wasnt my first readthrough that made me think he was Moridin. It was actually Brandon and the "Big Unnoticed Thing." I still tremble with rage about that... Anyway he said there was something around books 4-6, immediately the first thing that came to mind was Ishamaels transmogrifiwhatsit, and the "Thing" was that we didnt notice when he came back. Obviously this didnt turn out to be that thing Brandon was saying... ... but... I couldnt believe I hadnt thought it from the start. Taim comes on screen as if hes been around for a long time. He feels like someone we have seen before. And I mean that in two ways. He doesnt feel like a new character when he comes on, and it felt like that on my first readthrough. Second thing, if you imagine how Moridin would be if he WAS posing as Taim, it fits every single slice of Taim you get. Moridins PoV when he watches Aviendha unravel a gateway, he gets angry-like, serious angry, the same serious angry that flashes on Taims face-angry that someone possesses knowledge that "he had a right to" or some such. Yeah? Thats Age of Legends thinking. If you look at Rand from Moridins eyes, Rand SHOULD be on that same level, that Age of Legends thinking.

 

If you're seeing what Im getting at, then...

 

"You know how to Travel, but you dont know how to test someone for the ability?"

 

Who said that?

 

That was Moridin.

 

Taim was Taim when he was a False Dragon, Moridin got reincarnated in his body. Taim has never been Taim onscreen, only mentioned. Taim was once a real person, but now he is a fake identity. But its the same body.

 

EDIT. One more thing. I became a Mazridin believer before TGS came out. When my bro got ToM I asked him if Taim was in it, he said no. I was dissapointed. But he was lying because he knows what Im like... he eventually told me he was in it for one scene. When I got my hands on the book, like the obsessive idiot that I am, I hunted down that Taim scene before starting the book. Just to see if there was a whiff of anything.

 

Hand reference. Thank you very much.

 

And then my bro, after throwing all the "Hes not Moridin, you're just seeing what you want to see" stuff at me for ages, he throws a theory that Taim and Moridin are bonded at me, "because they act a lot alike." It annoyed me, that did! And I think he knew it did, it must have shown on my face because he grinned, and the grin was because he thinks I might actually be right but doesnt want to admit I saw it before him! The git!

 

HAHAHAHAhA

 

If Taim isnt Moridin Im going to get such an ass-kicking on Dragonmount, it'll be hilarious

[Majsju]

Turned DF due to his ambition. He is to Rand in this age what Demandred was to LTT in the previous age.

 

Dude, that is my old theory, hands off!

[Kahsm]

I like this thread. I can legally be as weird and obsessive as I want! Hahahaha

 

Moridin Moridin Moridin Moridin. Rinse and repeat.

 

Taims introduction was the best scene in the entire series in my oppinion. I swear, if anyone who doesnt believe Taim is Moridin were to... just once... imagine that Taim knows Rand from the very beginning of that scene... none of it would feel weird. That guy oozes knowing whats going on, and not one person feels like that... apart from Moridin.

 

Rand tells you himself! "Only a madman would claim that name, if it wasnt his." The term madman is used very selectively in these books, and I think it was deliberate. Other people look at Nynaeve and her fear of spiders being a form of foreshadowing of the Moghedien business. That same stuffs going on here, with Taims introduction, specifically when Rand is contemplating that Taim might not be Taim. And then later on, we are led to believe that Rand has the Talent for recognising threads, yeah? Suddenly the term madman could possibly turn into a subconcious reference. Hello Ishamael, known madman.

 

Red on black... too in your face? In your face becomes red herring in these books, but when does it then become a next level of secrecy? "Let them dismiss everything obvious and then have something be true when it seems too obvious to be true." Hiding in plain sight. Ishamael right under Rands nose, and "nobody would be that blunt about it would they."

 

*cough*

 

So, erm, what else. Black aura in Winters Heart.

 

True Power disguise hides the sa'a Taim and Moridin arent that far apart in appearance when Rand used Mask of Mirrors he made himself nothing like his real appearance True Power is better at changing stuff than the One Power.

 

It wasnt my first readthrough that made me think he was Moridin. It was actually Brandon and the "Big Unnoticed Thing." I still tremble with rage about that... Anyway he said there was something around books 4-6, immediately the first thing that came to mind was Ishamaels transmogrifiwhatsit, and the "Thing" was that we didnt notice when he came back. Obviously this didnt turn out to be that thing Brandon was saying... ... but... I couldnt believe I hadnt thought it from the start. Taim comes on screen as if hes been around for a long time. He feels like someone we have seen before. And I mean that in two ways. He doesnt feel like a new character when he comes on, and it felt like that on my first readthrough. Second thing, if you imagine how Moridin would be if he WAS posing as Taim, it fits every single slice of Taim you get. Moridins PoV when he watches Aviendha unravel a gateway, he gets angry-like, serious angry, the same serious angry that flashes on Taims face-angry that someone possesses knowledge that "he had a right to" or some such. Yeah? Thats Age of Legends thinking. If you look at Rand from Moridins eyes, Rand SHOULD be on that same level, that Age of Legends thinking.

 

If you're seeing what Im getting at, then...

 

"You know how to Travel, but you dont know how to test someone for the ability?"

 

Who said that?

 

That was Moridin.

 

Taim was Taim when he was a False Dragon, Moridin got reincarnated in his body. Taim has never been Taim onscreen, only mentioned. Taim was once a real person, but now he is a fake identity. But its the same body.

 

EDIT. One more thing. I became a Mazridin believer before TGS came out. When my bro got ToM I asked him if Taim was in it, he said no. I was dissapointed. But he was lying because he knows what Im like... he eventually told me he was in it for one scene. When I got my hands on the book, like the obsessive idiot that I am, I hunted down that Taim scene before starting the book. Just to see if there was a whiff of anything.

 

Hand reference. Thank you very much.

 

And then my bro, after throwing all the "Hes not Moridin, you're just seeing what you want to see" stuff at me for ages, he throws a theory that Taim and Moridin are bonded at me, "because they act a lot alike." It annoyed me, that did! And I think he knew it did, it must have shown on my face because he grinned, and the grin was because he thinks I might actually be right but doesnt want to admit I saw it before him! The git!

 

HAHAHAHAhA

 

If Taim isnt Moridin Im going to get such an ass-kicking on Dragonmount, it'll be hilarious

 

I would like to hear more about this warder bond theory lol.

 

But anyway, so you said that Moridin uses Taim's actual body? But you also mentioned the mirrors of mists. He only uses the illusion to hide his eyes? Wouldn't Rand recognize him now?

 

Actually, the problem with Zen Rand is that he probably knows a lot now that he doesn't rush off to confront because he's... well, Zen.

[Kahsm]

Turned DF due to his ambition. He is to Rand in this age what Demandred was to LTT in the previous age.

 

Lame, try this. Taim may not be Demandred, but Demandred is Taim. Mazrim Taim killed Demandred and is now off impersonating the Forsaken which is why they both get so little screen time. They are the same person.

[Hybrid]

Turned DF due to his ambition. He is to Rand in this age what Demandred was to LTT in the previous age.

 

Lame, try this. Taim may not be Demandred, but Demandred is Taim. Mazrim Taim killed Demandred and is now off impersonating the Forsaken which is why they both get so little screen time. They are the same person.

 

Awesome. I think a revision of the opening scene of Lord of Chaos is in order. Age is finally catching up with the Big Dark Fellow . . .

 

Shai'tan: EH WHO'S THERE. SPEAK UP SPEAK UP I DON'T HAVE ALL DAY.

 

Taim: It is I, Demandred.

 

Shai'tan: AH YES DEMANDRED. YOU LOOK DIFFERENT THAN I REMEMBER.

 

Taim: I shaved, Great Lord.

 

Shai'tan: OH OK THAT'S ALL RIGHT THEN. ANYWAYS, OBEY MY ORDERS. LET THE LORD OF CHAOS RULE AND . . . WHAT WAS I SAYING AGAIN?

 

Taim: You were just promoting me to Nae'blis.

 

Shai'tan: YES YES OF COURSE. AHEM. WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS DEMANDRED?

 

Taim: Thanks for that, Great Lord. Also, Ishamael has betrayed us. You asked me to remind you not to resurrect him.

 

Shai'tan: YES I THINK I RECALL SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE.

[EpitomyofShyness]

Shai'tan: EH WHO'S THERE. SPEAK UP SPEAK UP I DON'T HAVE ALL DAY.

 

Taim: It is I, Demandred.

 

Shai'tan: AH YES DEMANDRED. YOU LOOK DIFFERENT THAN I REMEMBER.

 

Taim: I shaved, Great Lord.

 

Shai'tan: OH OK THAT'S ALL RIGHT THEN. ANYWAYS, OBEY MY ORDERS. LET THE LORD OF CHAOS RULE AND . . . WHAT WAS I SAYING AGAIN?

 

Taim: You were just promoting me to Nae'blis.

 

Shai'tan: YES YES OF COURSE. AHEM. WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS DEMANDRED?

 

Taim: Thanks for that, Great Lord. Also, Ishamael has betrayed us. You asked me to remind you not to resurrect him.

 

Shai'tan: YES I THINK I RECALL SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE.

 

Oh my god... I totally was just gonna lurk in this thread but this is TOO FUNNY. I just nearly died from laughing. Shame on you.

[OptimusPrime]

I like this thread. I can legally be as weird and obsessive as I want! Hahahaha

 

Moridin Moridin Moridin Moridin. Rinse and repeat.

 

Taims introduction was the best scene in the entire series in my oppinion. I swear, if anyone who doesnt believe Taim is Moridin were to... just once... imagine that Taim knows Rand from the very beginning of that scene... none of it would feel weird. That guy oozes knowing whats going on, and not one person feels like that... apart from Moridin.

 

Rand tells you himself! "Only a madman would claim that name, if it wasnt his." The term madman is used very selectively in these books, and I think it was deliberate. Other people look at Nynaeve and her fear of spiders being a form of foreshadowing of the Moghedien business. That same stuffs going on here, with Taims introduction, specifically when Rand is contemplating that Taim might not be Taim. And then later on, we are led to believe that Rand has the Talent for recognising threads, yeah? Suddenly the term madman could possibly turn into a subconcious reference. Hello Ishamael, known madman.

 

Red on black... too in your face? In your face becomes red herring in these books, but when does it then become a next level of secrecy? "Let them dismiss everything obvious and then have something be true when it seems too obvious to be true." Hiding in plain sight. Ishamael right under Rands nose, and "nobody would be that blunt about it would they."

 

*cough*

 

So, erm, what else. Black aura in Winters Heart.

 

True Power disguise hides the sa'a Taim and Moridin arent that far apart in appearance when Rand used Mask of Mirrors he made himself nothing like his real appearance True Power is better at changing stuff than the One Power.

 

It wasnt my first readthrough that made me think he was Moridin. It was actually Brandon and the "Big Unnoticed Thing." I still tremble with rage about that... Anyway he said there was something around books 4-6, immediately the first thing that came to mind was Ishamaels transmogrifiwhatsit, and the "Thing" was that we didnt notice when he came back. Obviously this didnt turn out to be that thing Brandon was saying... ... but... I couldnt believe I hadnt thought it from the start. Taim comes on screen as if hes been around for a long time. He feels like someone we have seen before. And I mean that in two ways. He doesnt feel like a new character when he comes on, and it felt like that on my first readthrough. Second thing, if you imagine how Moridin would be if he WAS posing as Taim, it fits every single slice of Taim you get. Moridins PoV when he watches Aviendha unravel a gateway, he gets angry-like, serious angry, the same serious angry that flashes on Taims face-angry that someone possesses knowledge that "he had a right to" or some such. Yeah? Thats Age of Legends thinking. If you look at Rand from Moridins eyes, Rand SHOULD be on that same level, that Age of Legends thinking.

 

If you're seeing what Im getting at, then...

 

"You know how to Travel, but you dont know how to test someone for the ability?"

 

Who said that?

 

That was Moridin.

 

Taim was Taim when he was a False Dragon, Moridin got reincarnated in his body. Taim has never been Taim onscreen, only mentioned. Taim was once a real person, but now he is a fake identity. But its the same body.

 

EDIT. One more thing. I became a Mazridin believer before TGS came out. When my bro got ToM I asked him if Taim was in it, he said no. I was dissapointed. But he was lying because he knows what Im like... he eventually told me he was in it for one scene. When I got my hands on the book, like the obsessive idiot that I am, I hunted down that Taim scene before starting the book. Just to see if there was a whiff of anything.

 

Hand reference. Thank you very much.

 

And then my bro, after throwing all the "Hes not Moridin, you're just seeing what you want to see" stuff at me for ages, he throws a theory that Taim and Moridin are bonded at me, "because they act a lot alike." It annoyed me, that did! And I think he knew it did, it must have shown on my face because he grinned, and the grin was because he thinks I might actually be right but doesnt want to admit I saw it before him! The git!

 

HAHAHAHAhA

 

If Taim isnt Moridin Im going to get such an ass-kicking on Dragonmount, it'll be hilarious

 

I would like to hear more about this warder bond theory lol.

 

But anyway, so you said that Moridin uses Taim's actual body? But you also mentioned the mirrors of mists. He only uses the illusion to hide his eyes? Wouldn't Rand recognize him now?

 

Actually, the problem with Zen Rand is that he probably knows a lot now that he doesn't rush off to confront because he's... well, Zen.

 

He doesnt only use it to hide his eyes, he changes the whole face. But the most common thing people say against that is "oh if Taim was Moridin Taim would have the sa'a" but the whole point of something is to, y'know, HIDE IT.

 

Rand could very well recognise Taim now next time he sees him. I still think Rand sawa blurry Taim face when he channeled the True Power. But one thing I wonder about is, the link between Rand and Moridin I imagine to be their threads becoming one... so what exactly would Moridin look like to Rands thread recognition type thing? Would it look like Moridin, Taim (like, the Taim Rand never saw), have qualities of both? Would it look like Rands own thread too? Would Rand be able to figure it out?

[Kahsm]

Turned DF due to his ambition. He is to Rand in this age what Demandred was to LTT in the previous age.

 

Lame, try this. Taim may not be Demandred, but Demandred is Taim. Mazrim Taim killed Demandred and is now off impersonating the Forsaken which is why they both get so little screen time. They are the same person.

 

Awesome. I think a revision of the opening scene of Lord of Chaos is in order. Age is finally catching up with the Big Dark Fellow . . .

 

Shai'tan: EH WHO'S THERE. SPEAK UP SPEAK UP I DON'T HAVE ALL DAY.

 

Taim: It is I, Demandred.

 

Shai'tan: AH YES DEMANDRED. YOU LOOK DIFFERENT THAN I REMEMBER.

 

Taim: I shaved, Great Lord.

 

Shai'tan: OH OK THAT'S ALL RIGHT THEN. ANYWAYS, OBEY MY ORDERS. LET THE LORD OF CHAOS RULE AND . . . WHAT WAS I SAYING AGAIN?

 

Taim: You were just promoting me to Nae'blis.

 

Shai'tan: YES YES OF COURSE. AHEM. WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS DEMANDRED?

 

Taim: Thanks for that, Great Lord. Also, Ishamael has betrayed us. You asked me to remind you not to resurrect him.

 

Shai'tan: YES I THINK I RECALL SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE.

 

Rofl. OMG that alone was worth starting this thread.

 

Drekka: I gottcha. I tend to lean on the side of why would Moridin do that? He goes from posing as the DO himself to some pushed aside pawn of the DR?

[Southpaw89]

there are definitely a lot more similarities between Moridin and Taim then there are of Demandred and Taim (including the fact that RJ and BS both confirmed that Taim is NOT Demandred). Another thing that's interesting is Brandon getting asked the question about if Taim is a darkfriend and he responds that he could really ruin things if he talked about that at the moment making me believe that he's more than a simple darkfriend channeler. That being said, I'm not sold on the Taim = Moridin theory. There are a lot of similarities but there are many reasons why they are different and that there wouldn't be much reason Moridin would do that

[Kahsm]

there are definitely a lot more similarities between Moridin and Taim then there are of Demandred and Taim (including the fact that RJ and BS both confirmed that Taim is NOT Demandred). Another thing that's interesting is Brandon getting asked the question about if Taim is a darkfriend and he responds that he could really ruin things if he talked about that at the moment making me believe that he's more than a simple darkfriend channeler. That being said, I'm not sold on the Taim = Moridin theory. There are a lot of similarities but there are many reasons why they are different and that there wouldn't be much reason Moridin would do that

 

Odd thing about that is, someone noted in the quote database that the quote suggested that he absolutely was a DF. BS' quote actually seems to suggest the exact opposite to me. I don't see how confirming what most people seem to believe would stir things up at all... "Oh yeah, that's what I figured."

 

Here's the quote for any who haven't read it and want to comment. I'm interested in other interpretations!

 

WinespringBrother on Twitter 8 November 2010

Is Taim a Darkfriend?

Brandon

Wow. I could really blow things up with that one, eh? I'll be safe and RAFO.2

 

Here's the note:

2 In other words YES HE IS A DARKFRIEND. DUH.

 

Seems like a rather baseless if not completely erroneous assumption to me.

[dutchman1789]

You all have it wrong. Taim is Rand from a portal world. Ishmeal went to dragon mount in a portal world when Rand was born and raised him. Now he has been released as the Anti-Dragon.

[OptimusPrime]

If Taim isnt Moridin he is a Ta'veren that the Wheel intended to become a Darkfriend.

[Leyrann]

My personal theory is that Taim is dead and has never been seen "on screen". I believe Demendred is the Taim we have seen on screen and that RJ has been playing a nice Aes Sedai truth bending trick by saying "Demandred is not Taim"

 

No:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Matrimony Cauthon reporting

 

Someone asked for clarification about whether we had seen Mesaana's and Demandred's alter-egos on screen. Sanderson said that we had seen Mesaana's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams, but that we had not seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams.

 

If Taim isnt Moridin he is a Ta'veren that the Wheel intended to become a Darkfriend.

 

RJ has said Darkfriends are very rarely Ta'veren. And you don't need it. If the light is winning too much, well, they have three Ta'veren. Make a normal person of one of them, and you have the same effect.

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

Maybe its been too long since I posted on DM, but it seems like all of this was hashed out during the gap between KoD and tGS. Taim is not Demandred, and Taim cannot be Moridin. Yes, I'll admit that Bashere had trouble recognizing Taim when he first appeared onscreen in Caemlyn, but you cannot jump from that and assume that Moridin is Ishamael put into Taim's body.

 

Taim has been forcibly turned to the shadow using the 13 darkfriends weaving through 13 myrdraal method. That is why Bashere did not recognize him right away. I do not have any direct proof of this, but if you think about some things from ToM it makes sense. Think about the scenes from Androl's pov; specifically the one near the end of ToM that ends with him seeking out Pevara. Mezar is returned and made a full Ashaman. Androl and the others with him all agree that Mezar is not the same guy he used to be. I'll quote the relevant passage:

 

"It's not really Mezar. Oh it has Mezar's face, right enough. But its not him, I can see it in his eyes. Trouble is, whatever the thing is, it has Mezar's memories. Talks right like him. But the smile is wrong. All wrong." Towers of Midnight, Hardback Edition, Chapter 56; p. 818.

 

It has Mezar's memories, so we know it is not a transmigrated Chosen. And Mezar has been made a full Ashaman. And Mezar isn't the only one whose eyes/behavior are unfamiliar to friends in ToM. Tarna suddenly is acting wrong to Pevara. I think there are a couple more examples. The more I think about it, the more I realize it's similar to the reaction Bashere had to Taim in LoC; recognizing him, but something being wrong.

 

The shadow already had the Black Ajah, but it needed male channelers, now Taim is recruiting darkfriends to the Black Tower and forcibly turning other channelers. I am quite sure it is at Moridin's direction since Moridin has the only dreamspike left. This would also fit the BS not being able to say whether Taim is a darkfriend.

 

EDIT: I realized after posting that this thread was for humorous theories. Sorry.

[mjdewy]

Taim is Asmodean. The DO, being pissed that Asmodean helped Rand, decided to punish him by ressurecting him as Taim and having the body be surrounded by 13 mydraal and 13 black ajah. Taim does appear right after asmodean disappears, and bashere doesn't fully recognize taim. Additionally, when the DO tells Greandal she was responsible for Asmodean's death, he was sayign that to make her feel her failure more.