Elayne - Caemlyn - the One Power

[Suttree]

Oh, they don't like him, for sure.

 

I don't see anything that suggests they will actually engage in a suicidal war to remove him, and much to suggest that they would not.

 

Except for Dyelin's assertion that they would, that was backed up by other major noble houses.

 

What in the text suggests they would not? Your Gaebril analogy isn't comparable as he didn't have a foreign army of Aiel at his back and was already tied to the throne through Morgase.

 

Dyelin, backed by the other nobles present, states that she would oppose him. You are not, I'm sure, suggesting that that means the common people would necessarily do the same?

 

Do you need a refresher on how the Andoran military system works? Each great house has a standing army and can call upon levies(commoners), that is what makes up the 200,000 troops. Dyelin has the support of all the major houses, who would then call upon levies and that combined with the general populaces comments quoted is more than enough evidence to support it. If you have quotes backing your view(do we see any that are happy or even content with the DR or Aiel?) as I have done, please provide. At the very least saying "I don't see anything that suggests they will actually engage in a suicidal war" is false.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Suttree

[randsc]

Right, it's a feudal system based on mutual obligation. The peasants must fill the nobles levies, when called.

 

Except that now they don't. The Dragon breaks all bonds, and Andor has easily its share of Dragonsworn.

[Suttree]

Right, it's a feudal system based on mutual obligation. The peasants must fill the nobles levies, when called.

 

Except that now they don't. The Dragon breaks all bonds, and Andor has easily its share of Dragonsworn.

 

Again please back up your point, instead of spouting rote ideology show us this evidence of Andoran Dragonsworn breaking bonds? In fact this is one of the countries that has maintained stability with not a mention that I can recall, of Dragonsworn causing trouble or even flocking to Caemyln to join Rand. Where are the povs of commoners wanting to overthrow the throne and raise up the DR? We don't have them, what we do have are commoners disillusioned with his presence, which supports my take.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Suttree

[FortySix]

if she used the One Power than that plot thread wouldn't have been dragged out for a decade and wouldn't have included some of the most boring (Wet Things) chapters in all of the books.

[mb]

Like previous posts told, the One Power was used during the battles.

Any further One Power use could have "dragged out" the plot line even more; possibly attracting any of these groups against her::

-more Andor houses

-the Shadow

-Seanchan

[XXX]

I consider all talk about any united Andoran revolt against Rand taking the throne just talk..we have not seen any greater loyalty by the Andorans to the throne compared to the other nations the Dragon conquered. After all a large portion of Andor..2 Rivers is in open revolt of Andoran authority.

[mb]

From reading Encyclopaedia's Towers of Midnight pages; it seems that the Two Rivers revolt is now dealt with.

[buckeyebull64]

A united Andor behind Dyelin is all bluster on her part. First of all, you had a large contingent of Andoran nobles who were fauning over Rand, subtract them from the equation. Then you have the levies, who are gonna look at the nobles, look at the Legion and the Aeil, look back at the nobles, and go "nuh uh." The you look at the fact that Rand has an even bigger army in the deep south, one that can teleport just as easily as the Legion and Aeil did...

 

Dyelin can do that math. She knows that any resistance would be utterly smashed and purely symbolic, and a pitiful symbol at that. Very few people feel patriotic after thier entire military has be desimated in less than a day. Dyelin was just puffing herself up to intimidate him to get what she wants. Rand was really intimidated, but it turned out he wanted the same thing.

 

What bothered me about Elyane's defense, and more so about Bridgett's (cause it's her job), is the total lack of innovation to end the seige. use the power or don't, but kidnap, raid, tunnel, do SOMETHING. could really use your help elsewhere

[Suttree]

A united Andor behind Dyelin is all bluster on her part. First of all, you had a large contingent of Andoran nobles who were fauning over Rand, subtract them from the equation. Then you have the levies, who are gonna look at the nobles, look at the Legion and the Aeil, look back at the nobles, and go "nuh uh." The you look at the fact that Rand has an even bigger army in the deep south, one that can teleport just as easily as the Legion and Aeil did...

 

No one is questioning that the Aiel would come out on top in that battle. But we have seen much of Dyelin's character and she is not the type to bluster nor make empty threats. There was no large contingent of nobles fawning over Rand(perhaps you are thinking of Cairhien?) Dyelin is the only Andoran who had the support of all the houses, this isn't in debate in the slightest and Andor's strength is due in large part to the strength of it's Army. As for what the levies would think please see the quotes I provided earlier. This is all we have to go off in understanding the general sentiment of the Andoran populace at the time in relation to the DR and Aiel. RJ would not just drop them in while Elayne was feeling out the country if there was no truth to their meaning. While Rand most certainly would win, it would be a Pyrrhic Victory as he would have to destroy a powerful nation, weakening the Light for the Last Battle.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Suttree

[buckeyebull64]

I'm actually refering to the nobles who watched Rand practice with the sword early in LoC. Names escape me, and they may not have been part of the all-powerful 19 who elects the throne, but they didnt seem insignifican either, like the houses that later came to Elyane's aid. Dyelin might have the supposrt of all nobles with stiff upper lips, but others are gonna be with rand for any advantage they can grab.

 

I know Dyelin has got a great deal in the strength-of-character department, but she is still a noble, still a politician. It's completely believable to think she could bluster or exaggerate in order to achieve an end she wants.

 

As for the levies, i know how the Andorans feel about driving the dragon out, but when i actually comes to fighting a losing war against the biggest, baddest army the world has ever known, it would be really difficult actually raising that army from amoung those who aren't already professional soildiers

[Cutlass]

if she used the One Power than that plot thread wouldn't have been dragged out for a decade and wouldn't have included some of the most boring (Wet Things) chapters in all of the books.

 

 

I couldn't have said that better myself

[David Selig]

I'm actually refering to the nobles who watched Rand practice with the sword early in LoC. Names escape me, and they may not have been part of the all-powerful 19 who elects the throne, but they didnt seem insignifican either, like the houses that later came to Elyane's aid. Dyelin might have the supposrt of all nobles with stiff upper lips, but others are gonna be with rand for any advantage they can grab.

Those nobles are among the 19 High Seats actually.

 

Though how much they'd have supported Rand in the case of war is hard to say. After all some of them declared for the throne when Rand left Caemlyn at the end of LoC despite that the Aiel army was still there. They were fawning because they expected to persuade Rand to help them for the throne, not to support him as a King of Andor.

[randsc]

So pointing out that the Dragon breaks all bonds, as is stated many, many times in the texts and accepted by virtually everyone in-world, is "rote ideology", but some nobles engaging in cost-free blustering is gospel?

 

Note also: One need not become Dragonsworn in order for old bounds to no longer bind.

 

There is significant reason to doubt whether Andorans would unite against Rand. And in any case, the question is both moot (since he left) and pointless (since even if they did, they would have been slaughtered.) As others have pointed out, there is no chance that the Aiel would fail to notice an Andoran mobilization, and they could defeat the Andorans even if they did.

 

Which leaves the situation at this: "Accepting" the throne from the Dragon would not have caused Elayne to be thrown off the throne, especially as she had the strongest claim under Andoran law. What it would have done is caused her political difficulties later.

 

So the question, ultimately, is how many lives should be expended in a pointless civil war, on the eve of TG, in order to spare Elayne political difficulties in the post-TG world?

 

My answer: Zero.

Edited July 19, 2011 by randsc

[David Selig]

So pointing out that the Dragon breaks all bonds, as is stated many, many times in the texts and accepted by virtually everyone in-world

I really don't think that's correct. The people who decided to become Dragonsworn are a minority in every country. More importantly, they are seen by others mostly as fools or even bandits. Masema's followers, the Dragonsworn in Tarabon, Arad Doman and Altara were mostly feared and disliked from what I recall, the reaction certainly wasn't "The Dragon came, so they were right to abandon everything else, good for them", but very much the opposite.

 

Bashere himself thinks it's highly likely Tenobia will have his head for going off to serve the Dragon Reborn, and that she has more than enough reasons for that.

[randsc]

Breaking all bonds /= becoming Dragonsworn.

 

The prophecy is quite clear, and well known.

 

Obviously, the people currently advantaged by those bonds don't like the fact that they are now optional.

[randsc]

People are also conflating two issues. An attempt to depose Rand if he declared himself King is not the same thing as an attempt to depose Elayne if she received help from the Dragon. Which, after all, she did. Those nobles in Caemlyn didn't declare for the throne when Rand was there, did they?

[David Selig]

The existence of prophesy is very different from the widespread acceptance of it, which you are arguing for. I see no evidence that most people in Randland think it's right to abandon everything else for the Dragon - after all, relativily few of them had done it, and most of them were presented negatively - Masema and his followers being the most notable example. In fact, it's pointed time and time again that it often leads to disastrous results - Ghealdan, Tarabon and Arad Doman, the countries with the biggest dragonsworn population, were the most damaged during the course of the series. Look what happened in Ghealdan when a significant part of the population listened to Masema's words how only the Dragon mattered - the country become a total mess.

 

Speaking of this prophesy, I couldn't find it in the Karaethon cycle, all I could find was that the Dragon is breaker of bonds, but no mention that he'd break all bonds. I am pretty sure the "all bonds" part was mentioned somewhere, so I'd be thankful for a quote.

[randsc]

and he shall break the world again by his coming,

tearing apart all ties that bind.

[Suttree]

I can't remember, but has anyone besides Masema even mentioned that Rand "breaks all bonds"? I most certainly can't think of any country besides Ghealdan in which the ruler was put aside on these grounds. Yes Randsc we know what you would like to have happen to all these Monarchs but I am asking what actually happened in the story. As David said there seems to be little evidence for widespread acceptance of the prophecy.

[randsc]

Read the post immediately above yours, a direct quote from the Karaethon Cycle.

 

Breaking bonds needn't mean the immediate replacement of the ruler. It does mean, if these people take their own metaphysics seriously at all, that the old bonds are no longer binding. People may choose to renew them, or not.

 

As for direct quotes: Both Uno and Ituralde, off the top of my head. I don't have the books with me.

 

Oh, and Aludra too.

Edited July 19, 2011 by randsc

[randsc]

Five ride forth, and four return.Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,bannered 'cross the sky in fire.

 

When the Dragon is Reborn he will break all oaths, shatter all ties.

[Suttree]

It does mean, if these people take their own metaphysics seriously at all, that the old bonds are no longer binding. People may choose to renew them, or not.

 

This is what I was getting at. Evidence of widespread acceptance?

[randsc]

I'm looking forward to this part, myself:

 

"What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up."

[randsc]

It does mean, if these people take their own metaphysics seriously at all, that the old bonds are no longer binding. People may choose to renew them, or not.

 

This is what I was getting at. Evidence of widespread acceptance?

 

I gave you three people, from three different, widely separated countries, quoted in the books.

[Suttree]

It does mean, if these people take their own metaphysics seriously at all, that the old bonds are no longer binding. People may choose to renew them, or not.

 

This is what I was getting at. Evidence of widespread acceptance?

 

I gave you three people, from three different, widely separated countries, quoted in the books.

 

Which you know perfectly well has no bearing on the original topic of Andorans not fulfilling their duties, let alone being proof of widespread acceptance. Ituralde is tied to the DR(before meeting with him he never expressed the sentiment and has still shown to be very much in obligation to his King), Uno(he was saying it sarcastically) tied to Masema and Aludra(dispossessed and also tied to DR through Mat). So people with direct ties to the DR or Masema, along with minor groups of bandits and zealots. Yes very compelling evidence.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Suttree