Demandred

[Terez]

^^Good points.

 

But given RJs enormous fondness of foreshadowing

...he would have certainly foreshadowed it before TGS, don't you think? The BWB doesn't count since RJ never expected the average fan to buy it.

[Leyrann]

^^Good points.

 

But given RJs enormous fondness of foreshadowing

...he would have certainly foreshadowed it before TGS, don't you think? The BWB doesn't count since RJ never expected the average fan to buy it.

 

Maybe his largest mistake... lol.

[contempt]

Well since you partially quoted me mid-sentence...

 

The BWB doesn't count

 

I know you've been a member of this forum a lot longer than me, but I don't think even you can arbitrarily dismiss one of RJ's entire books. And if you have to just so your theory makes sense, I think that says a lot about it.

 

But I am not trying to be hostile. It's your theory & you're entitled to it. Just like I'm entitled to mine.

[capuga]

Well since you partially quoted me mid-sentence...

 

The BWB doesn't count

 

I know you've been a member of this forum a lot longer than me, but I don't think even you can arbitrarily dismiss one of RJ's entire books. And if you have to just so your theory makes sense, I think that says a lot about it.

 

But I am not trying to be hostile. It's your theory & you're entitled to it. Just like I'm entitled to mine.

 

We discount the BWB because its not part of the main series and it is not canon. It wasn't written by RJ (although it had his oversight) and he admitted that not all of it was correct because it was written as if from the view point of a falable historian.

[Hybrid]

Well since you partially quoted me mid-sentence...

 

The BWB doesn't count

 

I know you've been a member of this forum a lot longer than me, but I don't think even you can arbitrarily dismiss one of RJ's entire books. And if you have to just so your theory makes sense, I think that says a lot about it.

 

Even including the BWB as evidence, it takes a lot of stretching to go from "barren island" to "geologically active continent full of homicidal and insane channelers, which the Sea Folk do their best to avoid." In addition, the Land of the Madmen is pretty far off the beaten path -- that's a long voyage to attempt with a time bomb aboard your ship. Occam's Razor: this barren island (I find it doubtful there's only one, but I don't remember the exact quote) is not the same as the Land of the Mad Men.

 

That being said, Terez is right. The BWB is meant as a supplement for the dedicated fans. Anything not mentioned in the main series is extremely unlikely to be as integral to the plot as Brandon says Demandred will be. For fans who haven't read the BWB, and I imagine a decent number of them haven't, it would be as if Demandred was bringing a Martian army to fight for Shai'tan.

[contempt]

Ok, I'm not so proud that I won't concede I was probably wrong about that being where the Sea Folk drop off their men.

 

But I'm only conceding that. I still maintain tLotM is where Dems power base is. Among other things I can't recall at the moment, I cite Sammy's quote of "events in the south reeking of Dem" or something like that. I know I've seen others, I'll post them in a much more well laid-out explanation of my theory when remember/find them all.

 

After all, Semi was in Seanchan & Graendal at least visited Shara. The forsaken have been traveling the whole world & it just seems ridiculous to me that they would all ignore such an obvious resource at tLotM.

[Durinax]

Ok, I'm not so proud that I won't concede I was probably wrong about that being where the Sea Folk drop off their men.

 

But I'm only conceding that. I still maintain tLotM is where Dems power base is. Among other things I can't recall at the moment, I cite Sammy's quote of "events in the south reeking of Dem" or something like that. I know I've seen others, I'll post them in a much more well laid-out explanation of my theory when remember/find them all.

 

After all, Semi was in Seanchan & Graendal at least visited Shara. The forsaken have been traveling the whole world & it just seems ridiculous to me that they would all ignore such an obvious resource at tLotM.

it isnt that large of a resource. Doesnt the BWB say that the population are small scattered tribes who kill any outsiders due to the effects of men who can channel going insane and killing people?

[Terez]

Well since you partially quoted me mid-sentence...

 

The BWB doesn't count

 

I know you've been a member of this forum a lot longer than me, but I don't think even you can arbitrarily dismiss one of RJ's entire books. And if you have to just so your theory makes sense, I think that says a lot about it.

 

But I am not trying to be hostile. It's your theory & you're entitled to it. Just like I'm entitled to mine.

 

We discount the BWB because its not part of the main series and it is not canon. It wasn't written by RJ (although it had his oversight) and he admitted that not all of it was correct because it was written as if from the view point of a falable historian.

I actually use the BWB as evidence quite often. It's good for evidence, though Teresa Patterson was instructed to use uncertain language when dealing with things that might not necessarily be true. Therefore, most of the information in it is quite accurate...we just have to take into account the uncertainty, and try to figure out what RJ was trying to hint at. A good example of that is the passage I dealt with in the FAQ article on Rand's new sword (see sig link). Another good example is the Ishamael/Moerad connection, and the nature of his half-imprisonment.

 

But that's not what I'm talking about here. It would be a mistake from a plotting perspective for RJ to have Demandred come out of nowhere with an army that comes from a place never mentioned in the main series books, and not his style at all. I say the BWB doesn't count because it's an extra, and something he was only convinced to do by the nattering of the hardcore internet fans. He very much believed in developing his story as much as possible in the story itself...hence his stock answer (RAFO).

[contempt]

it isnt that large of a resource. Doesnt the BWB say that the population are small scattered tribes who kill any outsiders due to the effects of men who can channel going insane and killing people?

Yes, but it wouldn't stay that chaotic once Dem arrived & imposed order & began training them as his army. As for the size of the population, as was just recently pointed out to me, the BWB can't be considered entirely accurate. :)

 

Edit: @Terez: For all we know, it could be mentioned in the beginning of aMoL. Considering how long the books are, there could be plenty of time for the other fans to get familiar with it.

[Durinax]

it isnt that large of a resource. Doesnt the BWB say that the population are small scattered tribes who kill any outsiders due to the effects of men who can channel going insane and killing people?

Yes, but it wouldn't stay that chaotic once Dem arrived & imposed order & began training them as his army. As for the size of the population, as was just recently pointed out to me, the BWB can't be considered entirely accurate. :)

training them as a cohesive army would be very difficult do to their innate paranoia of outsiders. not to mention that Dem would have to basically conquer them one at a time

[contempt]

training them as a cohesive army would be very difficult do to their innate paranoia of outsiders. not to mention that Dem would have to basically conquer them one at a time

That is a good argument, but then I have to ask, what is the point of the place? As Terez just said, we know from the books about every part of the world except tLotM. Because of the BWB, I consider this to be the rifle hanging on the the wall. It has to be fired in aMoL!

[Terez]

I think the point of the place is just random worldbuilding for the hardcore. It's an interesting phenomenon, but not necessarily relevant to the main story. Also, Chekhov's Gun has to be introduced in the story itself to be relevant (preferably in Act One).

[capuga]

training them as a cohesive army would be very difficult do to their innate paranoia of outsiders. not to mention that Dem would have to basically conquer them one at a time

That is a good argument, but then I have to ask, what is the point of the place? As Terez just said, we know from the books about every part of the world except tLotM. Because of the BWB, I consider this to be the rifle hanging on the the wall. It has to be fired in aMoL!

 

Except it's not a gun hanging on the wall to the vast majority of WoT readers. Keep in mind that those of us posting here (the more hardcore fans) are a small fraction of the readership of this series. Most others haven't read or even heard of the BWB. And since that is the only place the Land of Madmen is mentioned (at least by name if the Sea Folk reference was that island) most readers have zero knowledge of the place.

[Cybertrolloc]

"...a barren island without food or water." Surprised you didn't go with Shayol Ghul, that used to be an island and all. Paging Mr Ares!

[contempt]

I think the point of the place is just random worldbuilding for the hardcore. It's an interesting phenomenon, but not necessarily relevant to the main story. Also, Chekhov's Gun has to be introduced in the story itself to be relevant (preferably in Act One).

Well I just don't agree that it won't be relevant, nor do I agree the BWB should be disregarded. And with the length of RJ's books & that fact that new characters are constantly being introduced & new storylines started in every single book, I think between aCoS & tPoD is early enough to count as the gun.

 

Edit: Alright it's obvious I have zero supporters for my theory so I'll just state one last time that I think he's King of the Madmen & leave it at that.

 

Sorry I hijacked the thread for so long. The last thing I want is Mr. Ares taking notice of me.

 

So where do you all think Dem is? I assume most of you think Murandy?

[Cybertrolloc]

There wasn't much to hijack.

 

Yes, what Dem is up to is supposed to be pretty cool and live up to RJ's putting him with Ishy and Sammy in the uber-Forsaken category. BS twitteredeeted as much at least so there's that.

 

I haven't read ToM yet, neither have a few people I respect for picking up details. Have read the summary (sounds like a lot happens), but what I read here is kind of underwhelming fanboy crap for the most part (didn't read anywhere near everything). So ToM aside:

 

Not sure when Dem began his current main project, we don't have much directly to go on (some KoD, a sentence each in the newer books). Some possibilities are covered in this thread, kinda.

 

Murandy might fit the timeline. Question is how much can happen from there that'd make us all atingle?

 

Generally out: Arad Doman, Andor, Carhien, Tear. Depending on ToM, borderlands. (Of course shouldn't generally knock them out, but hard to see Dem ruling any of these all stealth-like.)

 

Seanchan held possibilities: Tarabon > Amadicia > Altara. Think there's bupkis on Tarabon in forever. Depends on what can be done from them, Tarabon had the dragonsworn with Ilturade back...but uncertain what can be accomplished from there. Altara's probably out if there's some Tylin's kid in ToM, what can Amadicia do even if they still had WC?

 

Shara: some bits waaaaaay back when, nothing since.

 

Seanchan: might fit timeline, could be effective.

 

Land o Madmen: o god that would be lame.

 

Aiel: hard to say, almost as lame as Madmen.

 

Perrin bits might have useful Ghealdan, Murandy info or not (ToM). Could go back and snoop around in the first Valan Luca saga again but meh.

 

So non fingo for me, probably same post ToM, depends on what's there to find. Suborning a light-side force would be quite a coup and worth a chunk of his time.

 

Forgot: yes, it would be better if Dem didn't have an alt-identity, doesn't fit the little we have of him.

[ironisles]

Although I don't know as much about this as a lot of you, I find it hard to believe that even a

Forsaken could just show up and take over a place like that.

 

"Bow before me for I am one of the Chosen"

Dozens of male and female channelers open fire. Said Chosen runs for cover.

 

Demandred was ran out of Shadar Logoth by just a few male/females (granted they had extra firepower).

Could he really take on hundreds of nutty and foaming at the mouth channelers?

Even if he used compulsion, how good would that work on a male who's completely bonkers?

[Clayden69]

I can't see them introducing the Land of Madmen into the main WoT series in the last book. The first time I had heard the Land of Madmen was on this site. Haven't Jordan or Sanderson come out and said that readers should be able to guess who Demandred is/where he is?I'm thinking they mean that readers should be able to work this out from the main series as they are probably the only books the majority of readers have read.

[Terez]

Haven't Jordan or Sanderson come out and said that readers should be able to guess who Demandred is/where he is?

Yes - both of them said 'who' specifically, though Brandon hedged on it after I pointed out to him that many fans still believed after the RJ quote that Demandred didn't have an alter ego at all. But this is why I think it's narrowed down to Roedran, and why I think that the Land of Madmen is completely out of the picture, along with Shara and the murderer in Seanchan (whom we had no idea about when RJ said we could figure it out).

[Luckers]

I've considered the Land of the Madmen for a possible staging area for Dreadlords--as in those recruited from amongst the Darkfriends, not those affiliated to another group of channelers. Consider, this was the way of things in the Trolloc Wars (Ishamael did not make the Black Ajah until after the Trolloc Wars). We know that Taim was searching for men, though he claimed he only found a few and only trained one who went mad (and how likely is that--Moridin and Taim-was-turned folk, ignore the question). Take also his comment to Rand that if you use too much Power in testing a man you might burn him out. Might. How did he attain this knowledge? If it was first hand with one of those few, then there is no 'might' about it. So Taim has esoteric knowledge about the training process... why?

 

Liandrin also present possible evidence of this training process amongst Darkfriends in that she doesn't consider herself a wilder despite having channeled for more than a year before going to the Tower. This might just be her self-agrandising herself, though one would think she simply wouldn't think of those years at all were those the case--unless she doesn't think of herself as a wilder because she recieved training elsewhere...

 

I'm getting off track though... why the Land of the Madmen as this potential staging ground? It's pretty weak in truth--they have to be kept somewhere, and the Land of the Madmen has a pretty damn good smoke shield around it. The Blight would seem more reasonable, but Graendal seems almost startled at Moridin's castle in the Blight in tGS. Seemingly indicative that such things aren't normal....

 

 

But yeah, random speculation, just thought I'd throw it out there--it's not so big a stretch as an army. These Dreadlords would be from cultures we recognise, and thus the strangeness of the place could be covered easily.

[JKN-SW]

While the theory of Demandred = Roedran har a lot of credit to it, I will be very disapointed if it turns out to be a fact. Forsaken acting as Rulers of various Randland countries is old and was over and done with after Illian, imo. Bringing the same plot twist back (a fourth time?) in the last book would be kind of lame. I would much rather prefer him to pop up out of nowhere, like Shara or tLotMM, or even some remote place in Seanchan. But as has been stated, lots of clues point to Roedran....

[Terez]

Forsaken as rulers was never meant to be a 'plot twist' - it's just what we expect them to do because they're all trying to build power bases. None of them ever managed to be king or queen, though - Demandred is the first, not counting Rahvin's week-long stint as 'King of Andor' (not that Andor has kings) after Morgase disappeared.

[Leyrann]

Another reason why Demandred is not in the LotM. Robert Jordan once said that the LotM (and Seanchan?) could appear in the main series, but that it was not necessary. To have Demandred in power there, it should be necessary.

[Terez]

Not necessarily...Demandred could show up with an army without us ever seeing the Land of Madmen on screen. RJ didn't say they wouldn't be mentioned - just that the story wouldn't visit those places, beyond maybe something comparable to Aviendha's and Rand's visit to Seanchan in TFOH (and he allowed that only for Seanchan and Shara - Brandon mostly repeats what RJ said, and he himself has noted that RJ never commented on the Land of Madmen).

 

That being said, the arguments already given are strong enough.

[contempt]

Ok I've got a new theory, one that even gives Dem an identity. I know he's not on the poll as one of the possibilities, but as far as I can tell he meets all the criteria & should be. I say King Alsalam. Now I now he's been ruled out because he appears to have no rule & no army, but just hear me out.

 

As an alter ego he meets the first & most important criteria, he was only mentioned but not seen until the end of ToM.

 

Now as for his rule & army, if he's Dem then he can obviously travel (the AS found "escorting" him would have to be BA). It's widely accepted by just about everyone here that Dem loves using proxies, so he could have also been "keeping an eye" on Rand the whole time that way so it isn't an issue either.

 

The whole time Alsalam's whereabouts were unknown, he could have been secretly securing the loyalty of Taim (maybe even giving him new soldiers from that place I will not mention), using Roedran to consolidate Murandy, as well as making frequent visits to the blight & getting the allegiance the red-veiled Aiel dreadlords (who are obviously most of, if not all the Aiel who went to "face the Dark One on the slopes of Shayol Ghul and die").

 

Now if all those three (plus some or all of the remaining BA) acknowledge him as their leader, then his Rule would be secure & his army would be MORE than ready.

 

Also, consider how brilliant a military tactician he's supposed to be. If I'm right, Dem is now prepared to deploy his dreadlords southward from the blight, his Murandians either north into Andor or south into Illian and Taim & his Asha'man anywhere he decides they're needed. Add the shadowspawn currently attacking Caemlyn as under his control & that would be a simultaneous four-pronged attack. Much better strategy than any of the other forsaken so far don't you think?

 

Plus he has now finally shown himself only as he begins his campaign, & right next to Rand to boot, putting himself in the perfect position to issue redeployment orders as needed. As for his risk of discovery, we also know he's a gambler.

 

It could be argued that he could have done most of this as Roedran, but that would mean tying himself to one spot like all the other lame FS, & we all know where that got them.

 

So, is this idea better than my last one?