Demandred

[Tainayndra]

I'm holding out hope that Dem. is going to play a big role in MOL because if he doesn't, all that buildup and secrecy was for nothing.

[Leyrann]

what if hes one of the Aiel........

 

Technically, only four Aiel are possible: Darin, Feran, Sanduin and Turol. You could look all up at the Wheel of Time Wiki. None of these is likely.

[Din]

Has Shara been ruled out?

 

We know that Graendal kidnapped the leaders of that place and it's possible some Darkfriend or other has stepped in to take control.

[Leyrann]

As I said with the source of some quotes before, he has to be mentioned in the first nine books, and those two of Graendal are the only Sharan people mentioned, and I don't think it's likely Demandred is one of them. O, and about those Aiel, if Demandred is impersonating a female Aiel (not likely) then there are maybe more possibilities.

[Dreggs Morlock]

...and then Morland is the only country left, because Dem is mentioned, and....

Where is Morland? I am thinking its an abbreviation, perhaps, or maybe it is 2am and I'm being thick, but I'm drawing a blank...

[Lacanos]

I find it interesting how there are 37 votes in favour of him being Roedran, yet only 18 in favour of him having influence in Murandy.

That leaves 19 people thinking he's Roedran....but without influence in Murandy :P

[wipe]

i think those writing Morland means Murandy. I didn't quite understand it at first myself, but maybe it has to do with some translation issue I know that Tear is translated Rift in Norwegian, the Norwegian word for Tear, but I still find it stupid to translate names..) or that they have just listening to audio books. Sorry, no pun intended, but it is kind of confusing with the wrong names business.

[Entreri]

Meh, who cares. The little guy has done very little and we will find out in book 14.

[Leyrann]

...and then Morland is the only country left, because Dem is mentioned, and....

Where is Morland? I am thinking its an abbreviation, perhaps, or maybe it is 2am and I'm being thick, but I'm drawing a blank...

 

Sorry. My fault. In Dutch, it is Morland. I'm going to change it now.

 

 

I find it interesting how there are 37 votes in favour of him being Roedran, yet only 18 in favour of him having influence in Murandy.

That leaves 19 people thinking he's Roedran....but without influence in Murandy :P

 

That's because I later added that second question.

[Southpaw89]

he's done little on screen but I would bet money that he's done more off screen than anyone else and that those repercussions will be seen in AMoL

[Dreggs Morlock]

Where did the Prophet first REALLY get touched by the madness? He was already not all the healthy when he was with Perrin at the beginning of DR, but I seem to remember he had a vision that made him to global... was in Murandy? I just don't remember...

 

If it was, then we could pin it on Demandred, and it would make sense the Dark One would LOVE "dragonsworn" killing, raping and destroying in the Dragon's name...

 

Added the last as an edit to provide context for why I'm asking this here...

[Durinax]

Masema first got his fanaticism right after falm, then Moraine sent him and the shienarians somewhere (cannot exactly recall) I think its during this time that Masema got hit. So I think its likely in Ghealdan.

[True Source Creator]

I do think Demandred had influence over Masema, but that wasn't the only thing he was up to. Before Masema dies, he mentions that he had seen the Dragon come to him and tell him to kill Perrin Aybara. This was shortly after Moridin's proclamation to the Forsaken that they were to hunt down Mat and Perrin. Demandred was the only other male Forsaken, so he fits most obviously. Of course, a female Forsaken could have done it using Mask of Mirrors to make her look like a man, but I doubt it: Mesaana was too focused on the White Tower to give a rat's ass about the two ta'veren; Graendal was hiding out in Arad Doman; Semirhage had just been captured; Aran'gar had fled the rebel Sedai. That would leave Cyndane and Moghedian, both of whom were "in the south" according to Graendal (TGS), but it seems more logical that it would be Demandred.

 

EDIT: That's not to say that Masema necessarily saw a man, just an Illusion. He was probably too mad and perhaps somewhat Compulsed to even know what it was, but he would think it to be the Dragon because whoever it was is the one making him that way, and Demandred fits the bill.

[Lacanos]

Weren't we specifically told by BS that it was a female forsaken influencing Masema?

[Dreggs Morlock]

I'm grasping at straws trying to figure out exactly WHAT Demandred did to make the Dark One so happy.

 

I was sure when the book was written it was Taim becoming Rand's second hand man, but more and more, I realize that could be exactly what RJ WANTED me to think.

 

Tain doing his 13 turnings needs Foraken help, and I'm SURE that is Demandred; the Dark Friend POV in Far Madding told us Demandred had contact with them, and I personally think it also let us know Demandred had direct contact with Taim. But there is more to Demandred than the Black Tower up to this point, and it makes sense he was the one to get the Prophet rolling.

 

Well, it makes sense to ME. =)

[contempt]

The Land of the Madmen can be ruled out as a place where Dem lives, because the person he assumes to be, is mentioned somewhere in book one til ten. NO ONE of the Land of the Madmen is mentioned.

That doesn't rule out tLotM. The first thing he would have done after taking over there is to begin training them with gateways. Maybe that's even where Taim is getting a lot of his new soldiers? Anyway Dem could have traveled to RL at any time in books 1-9 & spoken with someone who then talked to Rand or anyone else & said something like, "Met a fellow with some interesting ideas the other day, his name was..." I say he is King of the Madmen & that is his true "army".

 

After all this guessing RJ & BS has put us through, the mere fact that we all seem to agree we've figured out he's King Roedran is enough to make me doubt it's him.

[Leyrann]

The Land of the Madmen can be ruled out as a place where Dem lives, because the person he assumes to be, is mentioned somewhere in book one til ten. NO ONE of the Land of the Madmen is mentioned.

That doesn't rule out tLotM. The first thing he would have done after taking over there is to begin training them with gateways. Maybe that's even where Taim is getting a lot of his new soldiers? Anyway Dem could have traveled to RL at any time in books 1-9 & spoken with someone who then talked to Rand or anyone else & said something like, "Met a fellow with some interesting ideas the other day, his name was..." I say he is King of the Madmen & that is his true "army".

 

After all this guessing RJ & BS has put us through, the mere fact that we all seem to agree we've figured out he's King Roedran is enough to make me doubt it's him.

 

We could be right. People were also right that Danelle was Mesaana. For her, there were a lot more possibilities. Does WoT encyclopedia have a place who all non-appeared, but mentioned characters are? That would be the list of who Dem could be. But there are not much characters only mentioned.

[True Source Creator]

Demandred could be Mazrim Taim. Ok, yes RJ said he wasn't, but when was it that he said this? Because I have a wild theory:

 

Taim was Taim the first few times we saw him. He had some influence from the Forsaken at that point, but he was still Taim. However, we don't see him from Winter's Heart until the end of Knife of Dreams. It was said that Demandred's proxy was not seen before KoD (or was it TGS)? So, Taim was Taim, but then by the time KoD comes, he's now dead and Demandred is masquerading as him. Bingo!

 

 

...I doubt this is true, but it would be cool.

[Leyrann]

Well, as I said in my comments, BS ruled out each book, except TGS. And we see him in KoD, as you already said. And don't forget that we were able to figure out who he was after WH (maybe earlier) already.

[Hybrid]

We're told the man uses proxies. There aren't any real positions of power left to masquerade as, aside from Shara. Thus, he most likely uses proxies.

 

I find the idea that he's Roedran to be silly because Murandy is completely and utterly insignificant to the scheme of things and Demandred considers himself anything but insignificant. What in the world would draw him there? It's the one of the smallest and weakest countries in the entire Westlands in every respect -- rivalling Caralain and Maredo in this regard--, except perhaps economically (as a middle man), but even that is a weak reason since Shai'tan Himself is already dealing with the important parts of the economy (namely food).

 

Granted, there's a tenuous link when it comes to Roedran consolidating his rule and Demandred's rule being secured. But if this is the case, it will take some damn good justifications to explain why he chose Murandy of all places as his seat of "power." For example, if Murandy was only one of his many responsibilities.

[Leyrann]

We're told the man uses proxies. There aren't any real positions of power left to masquerade as, aside from Shara. Thus, he most likely uses proxies.

 

I find the idea that he's Roedran to be silly because Murandy is completely and utterly insignificant to the scheme of things and Demandred considers himself anything but insignificant. What in the world would draw him there? It's the one of the smallest and weakest countries in the entire Westlands in every respect -- rivalling Caralain and Maredo in this regard--, except perhaps economically (as a middle man), but even that is a weak reason since Shai'tan Himself is already dealing with the important parts of the economy (namely food).

 

Granted, there's a tenuous link when it comes to Roedran consolidating his rule and Demandred's rule being secured. But if this is the case, it will take some damn good justifications to explain why he chose Murandy of all places as his seat of "power." For example, if Murandy was only one of his many responsibilities.

 

I also find it unlikely that he is King Roedran. The problem is that we never heard of a Sharan. Well, except for three (two Graendal's pets, one in Tear, KoD, in the chapter Rand returns), but these all three appeared. And remember that Shara has a civil war. Or, that's what rumors said somewhere back in TFoH. I think he also had influence at the BT (but as I already proved, he is not an Asha'man), and maybe some in Seanchan (maybe this ruling murderer is a DF under Demandred's control).

 

I would like it if someone knew someone else who could be Demandred. I myself are also not satisfied with this. The only reason I smash down every other possibility is because I want to be sure who he is. And if there is only one known possibility, it is either this possibility or one nobody thought about. And I myself want to be sure it is the first one.

[balefired-ed2]

Sorry to sidetrack the discussion for just a bit, but I had a thought on Murandy/Demandred and this seemed like the place to put it. These points I am about to raise are not necessarily in chronolgical order.

 

Since the middle of the series a lot of actions have taken place in and around Murandy that in my opinion make the place a hotbed for war.

 

1. The Salidar AS travel through Murandy as they meander their way towards a confrontation at the Tower. This had the effect of enlarging both the SAS army and the BotH considerably as men rushed to take sides. I think a fair assumption can be made that this also aided Murandy as a whole to become mobilized as a fighting force relatively quickly.

 

2. Andoran border lords take advantage of the situation to reclaim/steal? disputed territory between the two countries. An already agitated Murandy can now legitimately claim that it has been invaded by a foreign power.

 

3. Andoran War of Succession occurs. A conflict filled with baths, tea, kidnapping of annoying heads of houses, silly sister ceremonies, demands of sex from the person you love who you have known for all of five minutes, blaming that beloved as the sole reason for becoming pregnant, and some small fighting generally weakens Andor.

 

4. Roedran, shiftless layabout "king" of Murandy, suddenly decides that being powerful is preferable to getting ROFLstomped by any foreign army that decides to traipse across his borders. After running a sort of false flag op with the BotH, Roedran is able to gather OVER 9000 soldiers into a rarely seen united Murandian army.

 

My theory is that Demandred may not have started out in Murandy, but that he saw a golden oppurtunity to do some major damage to the light siders without using any of his own resources.

 

If this theory holds true, old Dem will have been able to coordinate a justifiable invasion of Andor from a newly strengthened Murandy with a massive Trolloc attack on Caemlyn proper WHILE a great portion of Randland's military strength is pissing about at FoM. It is a hell of a misdirection on his part and fits in nicely with his image of a highly competent commander.

[Leyrann]

I like this, but it still not says who Demandred is, if not Roedran. I thirst for a possibility.

[Terez]

well we do know from various sources that his alter ego if he even has one has yet to make an apperance so you can rule out bashere right away the same with taim. there are a lot of speculation on who is is and where he is a lot of ppl think that he is king roedran and terez makes a very good case for that

Thank you. If anyone wants to read my case, it's here. Specifically, the bit about Roedran is here, but it's better to read the whole page to understand why I think it's narrowed down to Roedran with virtual certainty.

 

I do think Demandred had influence over Masema, but that wasn't the only thing he was up to. Before Masema dies, he mentions that he had seen the Dragon come to him and tell him to kill Perrin Aybara. This was shortly after Moridin's proclamation to the Forsaken that they were to hunt down Mat and Perrin. Demandred was the only other male Forsaken, so he fits most obviously. Of course, a female Forsaken could have done it using Mask of Mirrors to make her look like a man, but I doubt it: Mesaana was too focused on the White Tower to give a rat's ass about the two ta'veren; Graendal was hiding out in Arad Doman; Semirhage had just been captured; Aran'gar had fled the rebel Sedai. That would leave Cyndane and Moghedian, both of whom were "in the south" according to Graendal (TGS), but it seems more logical that it would be Demandred.

 

EDIT: That's not to say that Masema necessarily saw a man, just an Illusion. He was probably too mad and perhaps somewhat Compulsed to even know what it was, but he would think it to be the Dragon because whoever it was is the one making him that way, and Demandred fits the bill.

Weren't we specifically told by BS that it was a female forsaken influencing Masema?

Yes.

 

The Way of Kings book tour 21 September 2010, Orem, UT - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Matt: This has to do with the Luckers’ Shiny Dragon theory. Masema mentions having a vision, someone tells him to kill Perrin. So, my question, was the individual telling him to kill Perrin a male or female?

Brandon: He saw a male.

Matt: He did, but was the individual a male or a female?

Brandon: (Laughs appreciatively and pauses)

Brandon: Yes, yes he was a male or a female.

Matt: (Laughs) Was the individual a male?

Brandon: (Thoughtful, deep intake of breath, pause)

Matt: …as classically defined by his physical…(laughter)

Brandon: (Says, yes I get what you are asking)…

Matt: ...I’ll say it this way, does this individual have the soul of a man or a woman?

Brandon: mmmhmm. (pauses looking up for a good twenty or thirty seconds)

Brandon: Female.

Matt: Excellent.

 

I find the idea that he's Roedran to be silly because Murandy is completely and utterly insignificant to the scheme of things and Demandred considers himself anything but insignificant. What in the world would draw him there? It's the one of the smallest and weakest countries in the entire Westlands in every respect -- rivalling Caralain and Maredo in this regard--, except perhaps economically (as a middle man), but even that is a weak reason since Shai'tan Himself is already dealing with the important parts of the economy (namely food).

 

Granted, there's a tenuous link when it comes to Roedran consolidating his rule and Demandred's rule being secured. But if this is the case, it will take some damn good justifications to explain why he chose Murandy of all places as his seat of "power." For example, if Murandy was only one of his many responsibilities.

I discuss in detail why I think Demandred chose Murandy in the page linked above, and also the possibilities for his 'many responsibilities'.

 

For the record, I voted Roedran (nice to see something close to a consensus), and then Black Tower, Murandy, Seanchan Randland (through Semirhage), and Dragon's Empire (through proxies - though the Black Tower is of course a part of that). I debated on the Borderlanders, but I don't really think he's likely to have had any influence there.

[Leyrann]

That was a very long theory, Terez, it took me more than an hour to read it. And I skipped most of the quotes (except the bold parts).