Where's Waldo? I mean...Demandred?

[Finnssss22]

Him being in the Blight doesn't fit with what he said in tGS though. He said "my rule is secure". Well if he's in the Blight it better be secured! Besides I think Moridin is taking care of the Blight and gathering the Shadowspawn.

 

I think "my rule is secure," in this theory, applies to his proxies elsewhere and his pulling in of DFs and Dreadlords. Yes, Shadowspawn is a given, but the other folks aren't quite as obedient.

 

I tend to agree with this. Imo the best objection against Roedran is that an army of Murandians couldn't possibly be the center of the Dark's strategy, as BS has stated Demandred is. As soon as they spot a trolloc they will either run away or attack them. They could, possibly, stab the Andorians in the back with a sneak attack before the trollocs arrive, but the timing seems unlikely to me- they would have to be the ones currently burning Caemlyn... when the trollocs show up they will be perfectly placed to help defend the city. Otoh, invading Andor and drawing the defenders away from Caemlyn would have been a brilliant move, but that didn't happen.

 

However it would make plenty of sense if Roedran is a dark friend under the control of Demandred, and that Demandred is pulling a number of strings and coordinating all the Dark's armies... much more fufilling than filling out requisition forms in Lugard. The only way I am willing to buy Roedran as Demandred is if he is busy gathering Murandians together and balefiring them.

 

 

...and again, you have to ask yourself what exactly was going on in Tear, Caemlyn and Illian while Be'lal, Sammy and Rahvin ruled the roosts there.

It definitely opens up the possibility of large scale corruption at work.

 

You wouldn't of thought that entire Cities would of gone over to the Shadow during the AoL either but it happened.

 

We know what wasn't going on in Tear, Caemlyn and Illian- wholesales conversion of the populace to the shadow. In fact there is no evidence of any such attempts in this age, as soon as those cities were conquered by Rand they followed his flag (or Elaynes in Caemlyns case). We see no evidence of mass murder, public executions, schools for the dark one, etc that were common features of the War of Power. The answer would seem to be that without a vast horde of shadowspawn to keep the population in subjugation, there is little reason to believe a populace would willingly turn to the Shadow, or even serve the shadow unwillingly without a fight. How this could work even in theory in an central nation like Murandy without news of it leaking out to the rest of the world is a great question. Of course there are always Dark Friends, but I don't believe there is any known example of a city or major population going over to the shadow without being conquered by trolloc filled hordes.

 

 

Ok then explain what was going on in those cities.

Explain the dreams and slow loss of willpower of the populace. Explain the almost trance state the Tear ship captain, that took Mat and Thom from TV, went into talking about Lord Samon.

Something was going on, that's a fact. Just because it didn't happen overnight in a few months doesn't discount the theory and Demandred, if he is in Murandy, has most likely been there almost since his release and has had close to 2 years to corrupt the populace.

[Red Hand Man]

What I gather is that the Darkfriend populace of Murandy is much higher than that of the rest of the world. Based on the descriptions of the city and it's complete lack of order, mostly.

 

I think most of the evidence is that Murandy is where Demandred is staging his armies, Trolloc, Dreadlord, and DF or otherwise. It is safe to assume that there are waygates in Murandy and Portal Stones, so multiple ways of bringing shadowspawn to town to stage... and the populace could be the food supply. Roedran is probably the same Roedran and is not being impersonated by Demandred, either taken by compulsion or is being coerced as a darkfriend.

 

Murandy is in a great place to launch an assault on many of the powerful nations of the center of the continent. It borders Tear, Illian, Altara, and Andor and it is the center of the merchant trade routes.

 

How do armys operate? They take out the enemy's ability to communicate and supply their forces with what they need, having control of the merchants and roads seems like a pretty important place to be, especially if you have ways of preventing people from Traveling into and out of places.

[mbuehner]

 

Ok then explain what was going on in those cities.

Explain the dreams and slow loss of willpower of the populace. Explain the almost trance state the Tear ship captain, that took Mat and Thom from TV, went into talking about Lord Samon.

Something was going on, that's a fact. Just because it didn't happen overnight in a few months doesn't discount the theory and Demandred, if he is in Murandy, has most likely been there almost since his release and has had close to 2 years to corrupt the populace.

 

Be'lal left his dreams unshielded in Tear according to Moraine (just as Rand was unknowingly doing) in order to lure Rand to the Stone, there is no indications that I can recall that this was converting anyone to the Dark- to the contrary we are directly told that only channelers via the 13x13 trick are susceptible to being forceably turned to the dark. He was a popular politician who advocated things Tearans liked, I don't think we need to invent some new form of shadow mass hypnosis to demonstrate an unsavory politician becoming popular, we've had plenty of examples in the real world at the risk of skirting Godwin's Law.

 

I think you are also overestimating how much longer Demandred would have had in Murandy compared to Sammael in Illian. Lets assume they both showed up on day 47 of the series- the day Aginor and Balthamel appeared at the eye (we have proof of entrenched Sammael much earlier than any inkling of Demandred, circa TDR, but for the sake of argument). Sammael was killed in January of 1000, 659 days in. That gave him about 612 days in Illian. We are currently at the Summer of 1000, so lets say Demandred has had Murandy for an extra 6 months, 794 days. Thats only 30% more time than Sammael had, and again we have no evidence whatever that Sammael had any kind of voodoo effect or compulsion on the populace. To the contrary the entire army, nobility, and populace went immediately over to Rand without hesitation (aside from the hold outs that Rand negotiated into service with little trouble).

[mbuehner]

What I gather is that the Darkfriend populace of Murandy is much higher than that of the rest of the world. Based on the descriptions of the city and it's complete lack of order, mostly.

As a libertarian, I resent that! Seriously though, you could make the same argument about the Aiel before Rand showed up. A loose confederation doesn't make people more likely to be darkfriends.

 

I think most of the evidence is that Murandy is where Demandred is staging his armies, Trolloc, Dreadlord, and DF or otherwise.

 

What evidence? And how could this happen without rumor of it spreading from the spine of the world to the sea?

 

It is safe to assume that there are waygates in Murandy and Portal Stones, so multiple ways of bringing shadowspawn to town to stage... and the populace could be the food supply. Roedran is probably the same Roedran and is not being impersonated by Demandred, either taken by compulsion or is being coerced as a darkfriend.

 

Its safe to assume there are waygates and portal stones anywhere, there is nothing special about murandy in this regard.

 

 

Murandy is in a great place to launch an assault on many of the powerful nations of the center of the continent. It borders Tear, Illian, Altara, and Andor and it is the center of the merchant trade routes.

 

But with waygates and portal stones, location is virtually irrelevant. You can invade any of those nations just as easily from Shara if you are using those methods.

 

How do armys operate? They take out the enemy's ability to communicate and supply their forces with what they need, having control of the merchants and roads seems like a pretty important place to be, especially if you have ways of preventing people from Traveling into and out of places.

 

Supply lines are important, but with traveling, way gates, and portal stones they are much less so. The Dark is the only one with dreamspikes (1 now) and they aren't big enough in area to shut down entire supply lines very reliably anyway.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's try to find some common ground we can all agree on before we start jumping off in all directions.

 

First, I don't think Jordan or Sanderson has ever knowingly lied to us - openly. Which is not to say they have not misled us through clever wording, nor that they have not failed to tell us all of those things they have chosen to mention. Nor does it mean that they mean what we think they do by the words they do use.

 

A couple of things have been made plainly clear in the earlier books:

1. None of the Forsaken ( exccept possibly Moridin ) know where Demandred is based or who ( if anybody ) he is impersonating. Sammael came close with his notion that "things in the South" seemed to bear Demandred's stamp. It was actually Semirhage, but she and Mesaana were cooperating with Demandred and he likely was using them as his proxies in the positions best suited to their tastes and talents. Semirhage supposedly controlling the Seanchan, and Mesaana supposedly controlling the White Tower.

 

The series began with the Dark moving heaven and earth to identify "The Dragon Reborn", and then once they had done so either to control him or, if they must, kill him. Everybody was tasked with finding him. Lanfear was tasked with controlling him.

 

That's where things wander off into the Twilight Zone. Ishamael/Ba'alzamon/Moridin who supposedly stands highest among the Forsaken and in whom Shai'tan resides the most confidence made strict, standing orders, that Rand was not to be harmed. At the same time, Shaidar Haran, who comes closest to being an actual Avatar for Shai'tan, had a whole network of Darkfriends, led by Bors/Jaichim Carridin trying their utmost to find and kill Rand. Every month Bors fails, Haran kills one of Carridin's relatives. Finally Moridin finds out what Carridin is up to and has him killed for going against the standing order not to harm Rand. Confused. Confusing. Chaotic. A situation that could only make sense to Shai'tan.

 

Then, to confuse things even more, Lanfear goes all Postal on the docks of Cairhein and removes herself from ever being able to influence Rand again.

 

2. Two of the Forsaken were then tasked with "keeping track of Rand", and influencing his actions. One, was the now twice dead Aginor. The other was Demandred.

 

Aginor, who, when Lanfear goes Postal, is being reconstituted as Osan'gar is not yet ready to become Corlan Dashiva, and join the Black Tower. Even once he does, he is never in a position close enough to Rand to exert any real influence or control over what Rand does. All he can ever really do, is observe and report.

 

So, how is Demandred supposed to do even that much, if, as Jordan supposedly said, his" alter-ego" has never been seen? The other Forsaken, at least, seem to believe that he is, in fact, close enough to Rand to actually accomplish his task, and become quite upset with both him and Aginor when it is finally revealed that Rand plans to cleanse Saidin.

 

We're all aware that the Dark One can, and often does, demand six impossible things before breakfast, but how can even it honestly expect Demandred to influence or control Rand if he ( Demandred or his alter-ego ) have never appeared ( anywhere outside of the Forsaken Kaffe Klatsches ) by this point in the series?

[MasterAblar]

Let's try to find some common ground we can all agree on before we start jumping off in all directions.

 

First, I don't think Jordan or Sanderson has ever knowingly lied to us - openly. Which is not to say they have not misled us through clever wording, nor that they have not failed to tell us all of those things they have chosen to mention. Nor does it mean that they mean what we think they do by the words they do use.

 

A couple of things have been made plainly clear in the earlier books:

1. None of the Forsaken ( exccept possibly Moridin ) know where Demandred is based or who ( if anybody ) he is impersonating. Sammael came close with his notion that "things in the South" seemed to bear Demandred's stamp. It was actually Semirhage, but she and Mesaana were cooperating with Demandred and he likely was using them as his proxies in the positions best suited to their tastes and talents. Semirhage supposedly controlling the Seanchan, and Mesaana supposedly controlling the White Tower.

 

The series began with the Dark moving heaven and earth to identify "The Dragon Reborn", and then once they had done so either to control him or, if they must, kill him. Everybody was tasked with finding him. Lanfear was tasked with controlling him.

 

That's where things wander off into the Twilight Zone. Ishamael/Ba'alzamon/Moridin who supposedly stands highest among the Forsaken and in whom Shai'tan resides the most confidence made strict, standing orders, that Rand was not to be harmed. At the same time, Shaidar Haran, who comes closest to being an actual Avatar for Shai'tan, had a whole network of Darkfriends, led by Bors/Jaichim Carridin trying their utmost to find and kill Rand. Every month Bors fails, Haran kills one of Carridin's relatives. Finally Moridin finds out what Carridin is up to and has him killed for going against the standing order not to harm Rand. Confused. Confusing. Chaotic. A situation that could only make sense to Shai'tan.

 

Then, to confuse things even more, Lanfear goes all Postal on the docks of Cairhein and removes herself from ever being able to influence Rand again.

 

2. Two of the Forsaken were then tasked with "keeping track of Rand", and influencing his actions. One, was the now twice dead Aginor. The other was Demandred.

 

Aginor, who, when Lanfear goes Postal, is being reconstituted as Osan'gar is not yet ready to become Corlan Dashiva, and join the Black Tower. Even once he does, he is never in a position close enough to Rand to exert any real influence or control over what Rand does. All he can ever really do, is observe and report.

 

So, how is Demandred supposed to do even that much, if, as Jordan supposedly said, his" alter-ego" has never been seen? The other Forsaken, at least, seem to believe that he is, in fact, close enough to Rand to actually accomplish his task, and become quite upset with both him and Aginor when it is finally revealed that Rand plans to cleanse Saidin.

 

We're all aware that the Dark One can, and often does, demand six impossible things before breakfast, but how can even it honestly expect Demandred to influence or control Rand if he ( Demandred or his alter-ego ) have never appeared ( anywhere outside of the Forsaken Kaffe Klatsches ) by this point in the series?

 

When Greandal says that Demandred was tasked with watching Rand, she says it sort of as an after thought, as if it's more Osangar's job.

 

Now, Sammael told Graendal that Demandred may have been involved in Rand's capture by the Tower delegation, despite how it ended. It ended with the Ashaman crushing the Aes Sedai defense and scattering the Shaido. So it appears that Sammael is saying that Demandred has power in the Black Tower. However, he still asks Greandal to find out where Demandred is, and even in tGS, Graendal does no know yet. So considering that Sammael's comment about Demandred's involvement in Rand's capture is offhanded, it appears that Sammael, Graendal, and presumably the rest of the Forsaken all know about Demandred's involvement in the BT. Which means that his real power base, the one Greandal want's to know about so much, is elsewhere.

[Finnssss22]

and again we have no evidence whatever that Sammael had any kind of voodoo effect or compulsion on the populace.

 

 

May want to have another gander at chapter 42 of tDR

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

2. Two of the Forsaken were then tasked with "keeping track of Rand", and influencing his actions. One, was the now twice dead Aginor. The other was Demandred.

 

Aginor, who, when Lanfear goes Postal, is being reconstituted as Osan'gar is not yet ready to become Corlan Dashiva, and join the Black Tower. Even once he does, he is never in a position close enough to Rand to exert any real influence or control over what Rand does. All he can ever really do, is observe and report.

 

So, how is Demandred supposed to do even that much, if, as Jordan supposedly said, his" alter-ego" has never been seen? The other Forsaken, at least, seem to believe that he is, in fact, close enough to Rand to actually accomplish his task, and become quite upset with both him and Aginor when it is finally revealed that Rand plans to cleanse Saidin.

 

We're all aware that the Dark One can, and often does, demand six impossible things before breakfast, but how can even it honestly expect Demandred to influence or control Rand if he ( Demandred or his alter-ego ) have never appeared ( anywhere outside of the Forsaken Kaffe Klatsches ) by this point in the series?

 

When Greandal says that Demandred was tasked with watching Rand, she says it sort of as an after thought, as if it's more Osangar's job.

 

No. It was Aran'gar who pointed out that it was Demandred's and Osan'gar's job to be keeping Rand under control. Graendal was one of the three who freaked out about what Cyndane had to say.

 

Now, Sammael told Graendal that Demandred may have been involved in Rand's capture by the Tower delegation, despite how it ended. It ended with the Ashaman crushing the Aes Sedai defense and scattering the Shaido. So it appears that Sammael is saying that Demandred has power in the Black Tower. However, he still asks Greandal to find out where Demandred is, and even in tGS, Graendal does no know yet. So considering that Sammael's comment about Demandred's involvement in Rand's capture is offhanded, it appears that Sammael, Graendal, and presumably the rest of the Forsaken all know about Demandred's involvement in the BT. Which means that his real power base, the one Greandal want's to know about so much, is elsewhere.

 

Indirectly he did. Mesaana was behind the kidnapping and she is Demandred's ally. Supposedly their plans would be coordinated to achieve a common purpose. Nonetheless, the kidnapping was entirely one of Mesaana's brainstorms, Demandred just signed off on it since it didn't interfere with anything he was doing.

 

We all know that Sammael thought he knew a lot more than it turned out in the end that he did know. That's why he's dead now. We'll find no guidance about who or where Demandred has been all this time from anything Sam had to say.

 

What is plain from that Kaffe Klatsch in Winter's Heart is that Demandred was supposed to be placed such that he could directly exercise some control over Rand's plans and actions. King Roedran would not be such a person by any stretch of the imagination.

 

EDIT: Kisman is the puzzling one. It is he who remembers being ordered by the M'hael ( Taim ) to kill Rand in Cairhein. He also remembers that then he was ordered by Demandred to kill Rand but not tell Taim. And, finally he remembers being ordered by Moridin to find the artifacts that Rand had and, only if absolutely necessary, to kill Rand. Of those three sets of orders, given that all the Forsaken know the Mirror of Mists or Mask of Mirrors, and everybody is trying to stab everybody else in the back, the only order-giver who we can be reasonably sure was genuine was Moridin. The other two could have been any of the other Forsaken impersonating Taim or Demandred. Other than his use of the very Martial Colors of red and black, there is nothing to suggest that Taim is under anybody's thumb. Those colors fit his personality as well as they fit anyone else's, and are pretty meaningless by themselves.

 

If anyone doubts that there may be some impersonating going on, remember that we've been flatly told by Jordan and Sanderson, both, that Sammael is toast and will not be coming back. Yet long after he was dead, "Sammael" was seen ordering thousands of Trollocs into the Ways which led to the attack at the Manor near Tear. Since it could not have actually been Sam it had to be somebody else.

[MasterAblar]

Now, Sammael told Graendal that Demandred may have been involved in Rand's capture by the Tower delegation, despite how it ended. It ended with the Ashaman crushing the Aes Sedai defense and scattering the Shaido. So it appears that Sammael is saying that Demandred has power in the Black Tower. However, he still asks Greandal to find out where Demandred is, and even in tGS, Graendal does no know yet. So considering that Sammael's comment about Demandred's involvement in Rand's capture is offhanded, it appears that Sammael, Graendal, and presumably the rest of the Forsaken all know about Demandred's involvement in the BT. Which means that his real power base, the one Greandal want's to know about so much, is elsewhere.

 

Indirectly he did. Mesaana was behind the kidnapping and she is Demandred's ally. Supposedly their plan's would be coordinated to achieve a common purpose. Nonetheless, the kidnapping was entirely one of Mesaana's brainstorms, Demandred just signed off on it since it didn't interfere with anything he was doing.

 

That doesn't explain the "despite how it ended". If Sammael was just pointing out that Demandred and Semirhage may have been involved, as they are allied with Mesaana, there would be no need to add that. Why does Sammael think that the the way it ended would suggest Demandred was not involved? The only thing that explains it would be the Ashaman's involvemnent in freeing Rand, and messing up Mesaana's plans. Which would suggest that the Forsaken know that Demandred is in charge of the BT.

 

What is plain from that Kaffe Klatsch in Winter's Heart is that Demandred was supposed to be placed such that he could directly exercise some control over Rand's plans and actions. King Roedran would not be such a person by any stretch of the imagination.

 

If Demandred controls the BT then he controls Taim. And it's seen a number of times throughout the books that Taim wants to keep a close watch on Rand. I would assume it's because he's reporting to Demandred, who has to keep track of Rand.

 

Also, if Demandred is at the BT, then notice the symmetry in Osangar and Arangar's responsibilities in staying very close to the leaders of the respective Towers (Rand and Egwene) and Demandred and Mesaana's power over the entire organisations. Of course it doesn't prove anything, but I just thought it was interesting.

[Suttree]

Messana is sylviana and demandred is either on the isle of madmen or kandors king/leader. He did say he was gathering his armies and that rules out roedran.

kandor is a borderlander, thus rand has seen him ruling him out because obviously demandred is a darkfriend.

 

Rhoedran has consolidated his rule and thus has gathered his nations armies which qualifies him quite neatly.

 

Except that Roedran only began doing that in like book 8. Why would Demandred have waited so long to act? Also no Forsaken has impersonated a real person. They've simply pretended to be powerful Lords.

 

We do see what could be considered a change in Roedran's personality though into someone who is now a good planner and interested in war which runs counter to his previous reputation.

 

tPoD

It was a remarkable plan, the sort of thing Siuan might devise, and hardly a scheme she thought Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a’Naloy could carry off. The fellow was said to be so dissolute he made Mat look wholesome. But then, it was hardly a scheme she would have believed Roedran could think up.

[MasterAblar]

Messana is sylviana and demandred is either on the isle of madmen or kandors king/leader. He did say he was gathering his armies and that rules out roedran.

kandor is a borderlander, thus rand has seen him ruling him out because obviously demandred is a darkfriend.

 

Rhoedran has consolidated his rule and thus has gathered his nations armies which qualifies him quite neatly.

 

Except that Roedran only began doing that in like book 8. Why would Demandred have waited so long to act? Also no Forsaken has impersonated a real person. They've simply pretended to be powerful Lords.

 

We do see what could be considered a change in Roedran's personality though into someone who is now a good planner and interested in war which runs counter to his previous reputation.

 

tPoD

It was a remarkable plan, the sort of thing Siuan might devise, and hardly a scheme she thought Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a’Naloy could carry off. The fellow was said to be so dissolute he made Mat look wholesome. But then, it was hardly a scheme she would have believed Roedran could think up.

 

Yeah, it sounds fishy, so it wouldn't surprise me if there's something going there, but it still doesn't explain what Demandred has been up to before that.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'll probably end up being crucified for this when everything is over, but I've long been on record that Demandred IS Bashere. As in Lord Luc IS Isam. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It won't be the first time nor the last.

 

The timing of Bashere's arrival in Rand's orbit is entirely too coincidental with Lanfear's self-removal from that orbit.

 

The Dark cannot afford to ever leave Rand to his own devices - totally free from any Dark influence or control. So, rather than leave Rand uncovered until Aginor is out-of-the-jar and able to feed himself, lo and behold, within hours of Lanfear's disappearance into Finnland, Bashere shows up and not simply abandons the mission his Queen has sent him on ( to recapture Taim ) but then abandons his allegiance to Saldaea and becomes Military Advisor-in-Chief, and Chief-of-Staff for all of Rand's military forces. Far too convenient by half. It even stretches being Ta'veren too thin for belief that Bashere is genuine.

 

By Winter's Heart in order to preserve his cover, Bashere has allowed himself to become so separated physically from Rand, that, not only does he have no idea where Rand is, he has no notion of what Rand is planning. At the time of Cyndane's revelation about Rand's plan to cleanse Saidin, Demandred is left looking like a total incompetent.

 

Bashere immediately takes steps to rectify that and fairly soon thereafter is not only physically with Rand but negotiating the terms of the meeting that is supposed to put him firmly in Semirhage's clutches.

 

I say that not only have we seen Demandred for several volumes now, but he's been hiding right under our noses. And, yes, I realize that only an Aes Sedai could make that statement jibe with Jordan's assertion that we haven't yet met Demandred. ( Perhaps he meant that Demandred had not yet revealed himself - which is absolutely true to this point. )

 

Bashere is the only one close enough to Rand and trusted enough by Rand to have any realistic expectation by the other Forsaken of being able to influence or control what Rand does.

[Duskfire]

Demandred is arguably the best general for the Shadow; would he really need the Band of the Red Hands help? Roedran is suspicious yes, but doesnt mean he has anything to do with Demandred. People are looking at the location because its one of the last few left, which is fair enough; but it makes no sense for Demandred to be there, and if he were there it means he has done nothing with his rule until about book 8.

[Suttree]

Demandred is arguably the best general for the Shadow; would he really need the Band of the Red Hands help?

 

If Roedran is Demy, it is precisely why he is such a good general that he used the band in this situation. They were merely a decoy to unite Murandy, it was all a brilliant ploy.

[Duskfire]

Demandred is arguably the best general for the Shadow; would he really need the Band of the Red Hands help?

 

If Roedran is Demy, it is precisely why he is such a good general that he used the band in this situation. They were merely a decoy to unite Murandy, it was all a brilliant ploy.

 

So what did he do prior to that? He stood around for six months to a year while his nation plunged into chaos, hoping that by some sort of off chance another mercenary-type army would show up and be willing to give him a hand? And why Murandy? Nation is beset on all sides by enemies, and wasnt the most stable at the best of times. It doesnt fit Demandred at all for him to be there. As I said, it doesnt mean neccessarily that Roedran isnt a darkfriend or even under control of another Forsaken, but personally I believe he is largely a red herring.

 

Demandred is in Seanchan. I would be willing to bet money on it. There is no wya that the Seanchan mention at the start of ToM was for no reason at all. Demandred will show up in TG with a massive Seanchan army at his back.

[mbuehner]

and again we have no evidence whatever that Sammael had any kind of voodoo effect or compulsion on the populace.

 

 

May want to have another gander at chapter 42 of tDR

 

Reread it, still not getting it. People are having dreams (just as those around Rand and Be'Lal are) and Loial feels uncomfortable. I still dont see any evidence of people turning to the dark side- to the contrary, Moraine and company found friends willing to help them. On the other hand is it any wonder the city 'feels wrong' to Loial with a pack of dark hounds and god knows what else in residence? We know powerful channelers can affect the dreams of a populace. We have no evidence that this, or any other method, can turn a populace to the shadow.

[Bob T Dwarf]

and again we have no evidence whatever that Sammael had any kind of voodoo effect or compulsion on the populace.

 

 

May want to have another gander at chapter 42 of tDR

 

Reread it, still not getting it. People are having dreams (just as those around Rand and Be'Lal are) and Loial feels uncomfortable. I still dont see any evidence of people turning to the dark side- to the contrary, Moraine and company found friends willing to help them. On the other hand is it any wonder the city 'feels wrong' to Loial with a pack of dark hounds and god knows what else in residence? We know powerful channelers can affect the dreams of a populace. We have no evidence that this, or any other method, can turn a populace to the shadow.

 

I think what is being referred to here is that all of those Forsaken who achieved political power used extraordinary or supernatural means to do so.

 

Bel'al in Tear.

Rahvin in Caemlyn.

Semirhage in Seanchan.

Sammael in Illian.

Even Graendal in Arad Doman.

 

Compulsion, Illusion, Dreams, etc. The women did it by controlling the legitimate rulers the men by supplanting them.

[mbuehner]

and again we have no evidence whatever that Sammael had any kind of voodoo effect or compulsion on the populace.

 

 

May want to have another gander at chapter 42 of tDR

 

Reread it, still not getting it. People are having dreams (just as those around Rand and Be'Lal are) and Loial feels uncomfortable. I still dont see any evidence of people turning to the dark side- to the contrary, Moraine and company found friends willing to help them. On the other hand is it any wonder the city 'feels wrong' to Loial with a pack of dark hounds and god knows what else in residence? We know powerful channelers can affect the dreams of a populace. We have no evidence that this, or any other method, can turn a populace to the shadow.

 

I think what is being referred to here is that all of those Forsaken who achieved political power used extraordinary or supernatural means to do so.

 

Bel'al in Tear.

Rahvin in Caemlyn.

Semirhage in Seanchan.

Sammael in Illian.

Even Graendal in Arad Doman.

 

Compulsion, Illusion, Dreams, etc. The women did it by controlling the legitimate rulers the men by supplanting them.

 

It seems to me that they used compulsion, like Rahvin used it on Morgase. Not any wholesale brainwashing of the population. Consider all the Andorans that turned their backs on Morgase (or fled like Talanvor), clearly Rahvin wasn't bothering to use compulsion on hundreds of people, much less thousands. I'd like to see any evidence that any of the Forsaken gained any measure of loyalty or control of the people aside from whatever normal political support they gathered via policy (ie, hating AS in Tear). Its obvious compulsion can be used over a limited number of important officials, but it certainly wouldn't be efficient over entire populations. You'd have to do nothing but compulse people night and day for years to enslave any useful number- consider the analogy of the limits of traveling when only X number of people can walk through a gateway a minute, as Perrin discovered in TGS. And as far as dreaming or some other unknown ability, again no evidence.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

It seems to me that they used compulsion, like Rahvin used it on Morgase. Not any wholesale brainwashing of the population. Consider all the Andorans that turned their backs on Morgase (or fled like Talanvor), clearly Rahvin wasn't bothering to use compulsion on hundreds of people, much less thousands. I'd like to see any evidence that any of the Forsaken gained any measure of loyalty or control of the people aside from whatever normal political support they gathered via policy (ie, hating AS in Tear). Its obvious compulsion can be used over a limited number of important officials, but it certainly wouldn't be efficient over entire populations. You'd have to do nothing but compulse people night and day for years to enslave any useful number- consider the analogy of the limits of traveling when only X number of people can walk through a gateway a minute, as Perrin discovered in TGS. And as far as dreaming or some other unknown ability, again no evidence.

 

Agreed. They weren't dealing wholesale, but to a select clientele. After that normal human herd behavior takes over. When the Leader says, "March!" the people normally march whether they understand why or not. Whether they agree with why or not. We're hard-wired to "go along to get along."

[Finnssss22]

and again we have no evidence whatever that Sammael had any kind of voodoo effect or compulsion on the populace.

 

 

May want to have another gander at chapter 42 of tDR

 

Reread it, still not getting it. People are having dreams (just as those around Rand and Be'Lal are) and Loial feels uncomfortable. I still dont see any evidence of people turning to the dark side- to the contrary, Moraine and company found friends willing to help them. On the other hand is it any wonder the city 'feels wrong' to Loial with a pack of dark hounds and god knows what else in residence? We know powerful channelers can affect the dreams of a populace. We have no evidence that this, or any other method, can turn a populace to the shadow.

 

 

Guess you missed the part where Perrin is noticing all the angry, disjointed people every where and the Inn keepers own tellings of how not only did she have to hire a bouncer full time but also hired that singer to subdue the escalating violence?

May want to have another gander I think

[mbuehner]

and again we have no evidence whatever that Sammael had any kind of voodoo effect or compulsion on the populace.

 

 

May want to have another gander at chapter 42 of tDR

 

Reread it, still not getting it. People are having dreams (just as those around Rand and Be'Lal are) and Loial feels uncomfortable. I still dont see any evidence of people turning to the dark side- to the contrary, Moraine and company found friends willing to help them. On the other hand is it any wonder the city 'feels wrong' to Loial with a pack of dark hounds and god knows what else in residence? We know powerful channelers can affect the dreams of a populace. We have no evidence that this, or any other method, can turn a populace to the shadow.

 

 

Guess you missed the part where Perrin is noticing all the angry, disjointed people every where and the Inn keepers own tellings of how not only did she have to hire a bouncer full time but also hired that singer to subdue the escalating violence?

May want to have another gander I think

 

Sounds an awful lot like Zuccotti Park given Occupy Wall Street. Is it possible Demandred is impersonating Michael Bloomberg? If an edgy populace and increased bar fights are proof of hypnotic Dark Friend conversion, the world is in a lot more trouble than anyone thought.

 

Or... maybe the outbreak of false dragons, calling of the hunt for the horn, and reports of the Dragon Reborn in the sky over Falme have people on edge. Just a thought.

 

edit- Oh, and not to mention living in a city governed by a pretty nasty piece of work with darkhounds known to walk the streets. Doesn't take the One Power or dark side hoo-doo to explain how living in a city run by Sammael might not be the most amiable.