The Lanfear Appreciation Thread

[Lama Chemist Ho]

I imagine it's probably pretty hard to keep the blood off your hands completely once you infiltrate the shadow, (especially the higher ranks). verin probably had to do some pretty bad stuff in the shadow's service as well (didn't she say as much), but that doesn't mean she was an all-bad person through and through, and didn't ultimately serve the light at the end and redeem herself. not saying lanfear is anything like verin of course, other than that she could also potentially be ambiguous. anyways none of the stuff you guys are quoting really strikes me as all that bad. after all like I said the only real elaboration given to "more atrocities than the other forsaken" are nightmares which drove an already despairing people to further suicide? she didn't even harm them physically she just depressed them more?

[Zentari]

I imagine it's probably pretty hard to keep the blood off your hands completely once you infiltrate the shadow, (especially the higher ranks). verin probably had to do some pretty bad stuff in the shadow's service as well (didn't she say as much), but that doesn't mean she was an all-bad person through and through, and didn't ultimately serve the light at the end and redeem herself. not saying lanfear is anything like verin of course, other than that she could also potentially be ambiguous. anyways none of the stuff you guys are quoting really strikes me as all that bad. after all like I said the only real elaboration given to "more atrocities than the other forsaken" are nightmares which drove an already despairing people to further suicide? she didn't even harm them physically she just depressed them more?

And once again, until you or anyone else finds evidence to the contrary she is a willing accomplice to all of them.

She jumped ship , chose a new name and not once have we seen her regret it.

 

The part you skip so gallantly , "more atrocities than any other forsaken", gives a pretty good indication of what Lanfear was in, since those include, trolloc feeding camps,brainwashing, and ripping people's souls to keep them as necklaces.

 

If any of her actions served the light, it was by coincidence only.Unless you happen to recall a scene or two where she made a conscious choice to help the light instead of herself or her obsession.

[Suttree]

@Emu

 

Conveniently disregarding evidence made to flesh out and give us a better understanding of the world (the BWB saying she committed more atrocities than most other forsaken isn't an unreliable statement), attempting to twist the definition of evil to better fit your point of view and once again ignoring one of the posters that has attempted to engage you in rational discourse. Still waiting on that evidence Emu...I've added it below once more as a reminder.

 

but the fact is many of your claims are patently false. A few examples being, things like what we know from Maria's quote such as the drilling was not done solely with "noble" intentions. Or that her love per RJ and Rand was not "honest".

 

TSR, Ch. 9

 

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

 

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true — he knew they were true — but where had they come from?

 

Selene — Lanfear — seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

 

Notice Lanfear doesn't even attempt to deny it, she was only startled Rand remembered the truth of the situation.

 

Let's try and move this forward, you did ask me to be specific when asking for proof, it is somewhat difficult to specify when 99% of what you put forth goes against all available evidence. But lets start with this:

 

(let alone her numerous "rightdoings" which far outnumber her wrongdoings in the text)

 

or bringing it back farther that...

 

Mierin has made mostly honest, ethical, and consistent choices over the course of her life, and has demonstrated a strong humanistic impulse.

 

Feel free to pull quotes from the text in support of these views and in doing so don't change the definitions of words to fit your meaning. If you truly look forward to honest discourse please stop projecting intentions on others, stop being evasive, and start providing proof for your assertions relating to Lanfear's character.

 

This is the final time I will ask, it is unfortunate as I was looking forward to honest debate and yet it appears you were just wasting our time.

 

after all like I said the only real elaboration given to "more atrocities than the other forsaken" are nightmares which drove an already despairing people to further suicide? she didn't even harm them physically she just depressed them more?

 

Are you being willfully ignorant on purpose? The atrocities are clearly differentiated from the nightmares. Read the passage again, the nightmares are in addition to. The cherry on top if you will.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

"TSR, Ch. 9

 

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

 

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true — he knew they were true — but where had they come from?

 

Selene — Lanfear — seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly."

 

totally tangential here, sorry.

 

but this is the second time that quote's been quoted, and it keeps making me think this --

 

the bolded part seems to contradict RJ's reported assertion that LTT didn't love lanfear. if he hadn't loved her, he wouldn't have responded to her statement that he did with, "and you loved power," he would have responded, "no i didn't, and besides you loved power."

 

the way it's written makes it seem like he did love her, at least for a while, but he stopped because she loved power.

 

ok, back to your argument, please excuse.

[Zentari]

"TSR, Ch. 9

 

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

 

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true — he knew they were true — but where had they come from?

 

Selene — Lanfear — seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly."

 

totally tangential here, sorry.

 

but this is the second time that quote's been quoted, and it keeps making me think this --

 

the bolded part seems to contradict RJ's reported assertion that LTT didn't love lanfear. if he hadn't loved her, he wouldn't have responded to her statement that he did with, "and you loved power," he would have responded, "no i didn't, and besides you loved power."

 

the way it's written makes it seem like he did love her, at least for a while, but he stopped because she loved power.

 

ok, back to your argument, please excuse.

Not really, I consider it more of an outburst, which is what it was.Not a rational dialogue.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

"TSR, Ch. 9

 

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

 

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true — he knew they were true — but where had they come from?

 

Selene — Lanfear — seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly."

 

totally tangential here, sorry.

 

but this is the second time that quote's been quoted, and it keeps making me think this --

 

the bolded part seems to contradict RJ's reported assertion that LTT didn't love lanfear. if he hadn't loved her, he wouldn't have responded to her statement that he did with, "and you loved power," he would have responded, "no i didn't, and besides you loved power."

 

the way it's written makes it seem like he did love her, at least for a while...

I noticed that myself, back when I first read that RJ statement that Lews Therin had never really loved her. There are a number of possibilities, four of which come to mind right away:

 

The first is that Rand's comment was just a zinger, a comeback, and as such was not meant to convey total factual accuracy. If that's what it was, then his "and" was not as an admission of his past love for her, but simply a reflection of her antagonism back at her, while the following sentence about the words ringing true was meant toward the part about Mierin loving power and not Mierin's own words about Lews Therin having loved her.

 

The second is that Lews Therin really did love Mierin at some point, but that it was a kind of immature love that evaporated as he grew wiser, or possibly a love built on misunderstanding that evaporated once he got to know her better.

 

The third is that RJ made a contradiction, and either was wrong in his statement that LTT never really loved Mierin, or was wrong in writing Rand as implicitly acknowledging LTT's love for Mierin.

 

The fourth is that Rand's memories of Lews Therin's life were unreliable and that RJ himself was wrong that LTT had never loved Mierin. We know that Mierin is a weak spot for Lews Therin: Once upon a time the two were very similar, ambitious and headstrong. When he left her, the reasons for which he believed he left her may not have been the true reasons. If this is what it was, then my take (and it is highly speculative, although not without a basis in the text) is that she reminded him of things he did not like about himself, or else that he felt she was drawing out a side of himself that he did not want to become dominant.

 

Incidentally, the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head, and the actual appearance of Lews Therin in the EotW prologue, have proved far less reliable than Mierin herself as a source of information. LTT in the prologue thought to himself that he had been wrong to think that humans could match the Creator by fixing what they had broken, yet Mierin always insisted to Rand that humans (and the two of them in particular) could do exactly that. Winter's Heart settled the question. The real Lews Therin got driven mad after the Dark One's counterstroke, and then killed his family (and broke the world, of course). He never got over the guilt and pain of that, and the ancestral memory of it was a factor contributing to Rand's own mental illness throughout the series. Much of what the Lews Therin voice communicated over the course of the series was muddled, contradictory, and flatly absurd. Even many of the more coherent ideas were tainted with emotional disturbance. Mierin, in turn, has provided straight information to Rand almost from the beginning, if you consider the self-centered manner in which she would often present the information. To my recollection (although I welcome examples to the contrary), we have no sure instance of her lying to Rand even once. What I'm getting at is that, in the exchange between Mierin and Rand, it could be that Mierin was speaking truthfully while Rand was misremembering, or remembering correctly but not interpreting the memory correctly.

 

Edited for continuity.

[RyanL24]

First I want to say thanks to Cindy for being an awesome poster. You're great.

 

 

Darth Vader... I kept thinking about him during this whole thread!

 

If you asked George Lucas "Is there any good in Darth Vader?" before the end of the story, he might say "no" because he didn't want to say "Yes, he redeems himself at the end of the story." I can see RJ saying how evil Lanfear is so nobody sees what's coming at the end of the story...

 

 

Anyway, back in the day people used to read books. They would be forced to interpret the work on their own. There was no internet so you couldn't just log on and read interviews. You actually had to think for yourself, because the author wasn't there to tell you what to think. The world has moved on though, now the author will tell you what opinions you can and connot have, and I dind't even get the memo.

 

Reading this thread, I feel really bad for some people.

 

 

Zentari, could you hook me up with a quote from the books that says that LTT was married to Mierin? I had never heard that... Hell, I'll even settle for an interview with the author.

[Suttree]

To my recollection (although I welcome examples to the contrary), we have no sure instance of her lying to Rand even once. What I'm getting at is that, in the exchange between Mierin and Rand, it could be that Mierin was speaking truthfully while Rand was misremembering, or remembering correctly but not interpreting the memory correctly.

 

She lied to him about her very identity, claiming to be Lady Selene from Cairhein.

 

Again Lanfear didn't bother to deny it, she was only surprised Rand remembered. With her actions and how much you claim the relationship has effected her if she truly had an "honest" love she would have denied the accusation.

[Zentari]

If you asked George Lucas "Is there any good in Darth Vader?" before the end of the story, he might say "no" because he didn't want to say "Yes, he redeems himself at the end of the story." I can see RJ saying how evil Lanfear is so nobody sees what's coming at the end of the story...

Until then however the response is valid.

 

Anyway, back in the day people used to read books. They would be forced to interpret the work on their own. There was no internet so you couldn't just log on and read interviews. You actually had to think for yourself, because the author wasn't there to tell you what to think. The world has moved on though, now the author will tell you what opinions you can and connot have, and I dind't even get the memo.

Actually, it was the same back then too.You could always walk to a signing and ask.This age is just making sharing that information easier.

 

 

Zentari, could you hook me up with a quote from the books that says that LTT was married to Mierin? I had never heard that... Hell, I'll even settle for an interview with the author.

He wasn't , my mistake.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Ryan, your sig is very pertinent in this thread. Kudos. I learned a long time ago that there are two kinds of people in life who demand to see the proverbial "pertinent quote from the book": the kind who want to work with you in advancing a conversation, and the kind who like making trouble.

 

I'll be thrilled if AMoL sees Mierin turn out to be a good character, but, truth be told, if AMoL proves that my take on Mierin is completely wrong and she's the next Demandred, I'll be cool with that. Life is always asterisked with the fine print of "according to what we know so far." This far in the series, I'm liking Mierin as a sympathetic character whose motives and ambitions don't fit the colors she's wearing. What I want now is for her to finally get some screen time again. It's been eight books since she was a major force in the plot! 2012 cannot come soon enough...

[Suttree]

Ryan, your sig is very pertinent in this thread. Kudos. I learned a long time ago that there are two kinds of people in life who demand to see the proverbial "pertinent quote from the book": the kind who want to work with you in advancing a conversation, and the kind who like making trouble.

 

And yet you have consistently evaded and ignored someone who has been attempting to advance the conversation, even after I answered your request for specifics. False statements have been proven wrong with direct evidence, most recently the claim that Lanfear has never lied to Rand. The dishonest way in which you are approaching the thread puts yourself squarely in that second category. Your own actions have forced me to conclude you are unable to back up your "interpretation" with anything other than twisted half truths and misleading statements. Let alone anything that bears any factual basis from the text.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Suttree, it's fair for me to acknowledge that you are right: Mierin lied by presenting herself as Selene. She also lied to Rand when presenting herself as Keille, etc. So, I was wrong to recollect that she hadn't lied to him.

 

(Of course, I specifically conditioned my statement's accuracy on the completeness of my memory. It's not like I was going out on much of a limb. But, in this day and age, when flat-out declarations of being wrong are rare, perhaps it's better simply to declare it a case of wrongness and move on.)

 

It's worth pointing out, however, that you are only correct on a technicality. I had been saying at the time that Mierin gave Rand a lot of good information, more so than LTT did and even than many Light-siders did. What I should have done is phrase my statement to emphasize not that I couldn't remember her ever lying to him, but instead to emphasize that Mierin has done little or nothing to specifically hinder Rand--not counting the docks, of course, when she was out of her mind.* Part of supplying him with good information meant that she rarely if ever lied to him about the things she was telling him.

 

Now, you bring up the point that she lied about who she was. Fair enough: That was a lie. But Mierin concealing her identity as a Forsaken is a different kind of lie than would have been, say, misleading Rand about how portal stones work, or planting Asmodean as an assassin in the guise of a teacher, or misleading Rand about her intentions for the Dark One and the Creator, or for Rand himself for that matter. Whereas Forsaken like Rahvin used their guises to undermine people, there's not much of a case that Mierin undermined Rand by concealing the fact that she was Lanfear. All she accomplished was to make it possible to exist in close quarters with him and others when the presence of a Forsaken would otherwise have been intolerable.

 

I'm tempted to ask if you have any examples of Mierin lying to Rand that actually address the point I made earlier about her actions serving to help rather than hinder him. Go ahead and cite them if you like, for the benefit of my curiosity more than anything else. In fairness, however, I don't plan on replying to you again here since your comments have been so negative toward me and so disruptive in advancing the conversation. Perhaps you would change your tone to one more constructive?

 

* Somebody mentioned that Ishamael should get a pass from his wrongdoings on these grounds. That's correct: To the extent he was not in conscious control of his actions, his wrongdoings fit into a different category from those actions which were under his control, and cannot easily qualify him as an evil person. However, despite many claims to the contrary, Ishamael seemed quite sane throughout his appearances in the series, other perhaps than a delusion of truly being Ba'alzamon.

[RyanL24]

Ryan, your sig is very pertinent in this thread. Kudos. I learned a long time ago that there are two kinds of people in life who demand to see the proverbial "pertinent quote from the book": the kind who want to work with you in advancing a conversation, and the kind who like making trouble.

 

And yet you have consistently evaded and ignored someone who has been attempting to advance the conversation, even after I answered your request for specifics. False statements have been proven wrong with direct evidence, most recently the claim that Lanfear has never lied to Rand. The dishonest way in which you are approaching the thread puts yourself squarely in that second category. Your own actions have forced me to conclude you are unable to back up your "interpretation" with anything other than twisted half truths and misleading statements. Let alone anything that bears any factual basis from the text.

 

To me, this is kind of like a man in the mirror thing. You think that whatever is written in the BWB is solid concrete fact. That is clouding your judgment a little. You quoting the BWB is not proving somebody wrong with direct evidence. You think that what Robert Jordan said is more important than what he wrote in the WOT series. That is not true. Quoting RJ is not proving somebody wrong with direct evidence.

 

I totally and completely see where the OP is coming from. The Cadsuane with a black hat was perfect.

 

 

She lied to him about her very identity, claiming to be Lady Selene from Cairhein.

 

Again Lanfear didn't bother to deny it, she was only surprised Rand remembered. With her actions and how much you claim the relationship has effected her if she truly had an "honest" love she would have denied the accusation.

 

Instead of calling him boy, grabbing him by the ear and trying to force Rand to learn things, Mierin came up with a plan that would work. She forced him to become what he needed to become, but at the same time he thought he was doing it all himself. It's almost like Mierin knows Rand. So the good guy (Cadsuane) verbally abuses Rand and almost causes his death. The "bad guy" (Mierin) is very nice to him and saves his life. How is it that nobody sees where the OP is coming from? Seriously, I think you guys read what RJ said outside of the books and at that point it's ok to quit thinking for yourselves.

 

 

 

Actually, it was the same back then too.You could always walk to a signing and ask.This age is just making sharing that information easier.

 

I'm talking about 1860. People got the book Great Expectations in installments. People couldn't walk to England to ask Dickens any questions. They talked amongst each other and formed their own opinions, based 100% on what they read in the book. Actually, most WOT fans are that same way. In a recent study, I found that 2 out of 3 WOT readers have never read the BWB, an interview with RJ or BS, or anything outside of the actual books. (I've got 2 friends who read it, and I was the third one surveyed).

[Suttree]

 

To me, this is kind of like a man in the mirror thing. You think that whatever is written in the BWB is solid concrete fact. That is clouding your judgment a little. You quoting the BWB is not proving somebody wrong with direct evidence. You think that what Robert Jordan said is more important than what he wrote in the WOT series. That is not true. Quoting RJ is not proving somebody wrong with direct evidence.

 

 

 

and quotes from the text? Even if what you say above is true I provided those as well. You might have a point but what is in the text just happens to support RJ's quotes as well.

 

 

 

Instead of calling him boy, grabbing him by the ear and trying to force Rand to learn things, Mierin came up with a plan that would work. She forced him to become what he needed to become, but at the same time he thought he was doing it all himself. It's almost like Mierin knows Rand. So the good guy (Cadsuane) verbally abuses Rand and almost causes his death. The "bad guy" (Mierin) is very nice to him and saves his life. How is it that nobody sees where the OP is coming from? Seriously, I think you guys read what RJ said outside of the books and at that point it's ok to quit thinking for yourselves.

 

Beside the point, Emu said Lanfear didn't lie to Rand, not even once. I showed that she did, once again from the text.

 

As for your Cadsuane analogy one is helping him save the world, the other is attempting to help him only to use him once again for her own selfish, delusional dreams of power. This of course is directly inline with RJ's comments no matter how much you might like us to disregard them.

 

It is somewhat funny given the accusations flying but in this case ignoring author quotes and the BWB along with refusing to provide textual evidence is conveniently the only possible way this character interpretation could be put forth. What a coincidence

[sleepinghour]

anyways none of the stuff you guys are quoting really strikes me as all that bad. after all like I said the only real elaboration given to "more atrocities than the other forsaken" are nightmares which drove an already despairing people to further suicide? she didn't even harm them physically she just depressed them more?

While never a field commander, Lanfear was very useful to the Dark One both before and during the War of the Shadow. Using dreams, she guided a number of operations that turned people against established authority, creating massive riots. She is credited with winning several battles for the Shadow by the same means. She is credited with driving a number of people mad and driving others to suicide, as well as performing outright assassinations in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Aside from intentionally driving people to suicide (which in my opinion counts as murder), she assassinated people through T'A'R as well. I would say the former is actually an even crueler act than if she'd quietly killed them in their sleep. She didn't have to torment them to kill them.

 

It doesn't matter how beautiful she was, or if she genuinely loved LTT, she chose a path she knew to be absolutely evil. If the Shadow had won, the vast majority of people in the world would have suffered horribly and already did suffer a great deal during the wars with the Shadow. Lanfear knew that and aided the Shadow anyway. Which makes her far from a good person.

 

But she is certainly one of the more developed villains, and it would be interesting to see her reaction to the revelation that Rand descends from her former servant Charn. It always struck me as ironic that Charn was leaving her in order to get married—shades of LTT/Ilyena, anyone? I don't really see her returning to the Light, however. Betraying the Shadow, perhaps, but that's hardly the same as becoming good. A lot of fans sympathized with Asmodean as well and wanted him to return to the Light, but as Lanfear herself reminded Rand:

 

"Did you know that Asmodean severed his own mother? What they call stilling, now. Severed her, and let Myrddraal drag her away screaming. Can you trust a man like that? [...] Besides, I watch his dreams on occasion. He dreams of you triumphing over the Great Lord and putting him up beside you on high. Sometimes he dreams of me." Her smile said those dreams were pleasant for her, but not so for Asmodean.

What I appreciate about Lanfear's character is that she's a wild card—it's hard to predict what role she'll play in AMoL and how Rand will react to her. Someone needs to shake Zen Rand up a bit to keep him from becoming too goody-two-shoes and predictable. So she's one of the characters I most look forward to seeing reappear in AMoL.

[RyanL24]

Hello my fellow WoT fiends... not much time today, so I'll be brief.

 

 

I don't thing Lanfear is a good person. I just know that other people are allowed to hold that opinion. To tell them otherwise is wrong. Even if the author says that they are wrong, which if he did, would tell me he doesn't know much about story telling.

 

 

We really don't get that much info on Mierin or Lanfear, and all it would have taken was one scene to change everybody's view. Since RJ failed to give us this scene, I have taken a little time out of my day to address the situation....

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

Sammael peered into the stasis box, hoping to find something useful from a previous age; a better age. He was growing weary of dealing with these primitives. He had to admit to himself that the reason he was growing weary of these “primitives” was because they were such a nuisance to him and his plans, and so very hard to kill. The Great Lord’s own luck he thought in disgust, and not for the first time, shaking his head. His eye caught a letter lying in the corner of the stasis box; he reached for it with his gloved hand, admiring the flowing lace on his cuff. The letter was addressed to Lews Therin Telamon. Sammael could not help being overcome by curiosity over this letter addressed to his old friend and rival. He was not usually a curious man, after all a curious general was most often a dead general. That was an old saying amongst military men, and if it wasn’t, it should have been. Sammael laughed to himself, and then began reading…

 

 

Dearest Lews Therin Telamon,

 

I write this letter to beseech thee to help our friend and colleague Mierin Eronaile. The ostracization of Mierin by the Side of the Light is unacceptable. This woman has done more for our Age than any other single person. There was that outbreak of chickenpox, we thought we were all doomed, but Mierin came up with a cure. Now our children will never have chickenpox nor will their children, and in the next Age nobody will even know what chickenpox are. Have you ever heard of cancer? No, because Mierin made a slight alteration to her formula for the chickenpox serum, and eradicated the disease before anybody was afflicted. There was the project where she took all of the endangered 6 toed cats and put them in a sanctuary somewhere out near Bumfork. Let us not forget the orphanage she runs in her spare time and devotes all of her earnings to. And the homeless shelter! I fear that if the Community of the Light continues to ostracize Mierin, she will turn to the shadow. She has already begun to act a little... strange. She's just not the cuddly lovable Mierin we have known and loved all of these years.

 

Please Lews, do it for a couple of old pillow friends.

 

Help her Lews Therin Telamon, you're her only hope.

 

 

Yours in the Light,

Jorlen Corbesan

Director of Research and Technology,

Collam Daan

 

 

 

 

Sammael began breathing again. The Great Lord would want to hear this right away. Lanfear is inherently good? “The Creators eyes!” he bellowed, as he turned to make a gateway to Shayol Ghul.

 

 

Later, Sammael sat dazed on a rock. Who under the dark is bloody Professor Snape he wondered? He shook his head in disbelief. He had never seen the Great Lord of the Dark terrified before. Never imagined he would see it. The end was coming soon, and it was not looking good for the Shadow.

 

Chapter 24: Another Bath

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

 

best post of the thread

[RyanL24]

::facepalm::

 

 

I forgot the part about how they only drilled through the bore to find a cure for Braid Tugging Syndrome(BTS)...

[randsc]

I liked the part about how Robert Jordan didn't know anything about storytelling...

[Suttree]

Perhaps you would change your tone to one more constructive?

 

Dear Emu,

 

If you follow the thread you can see my initial comment was constructive offering a tip as to how to get around some of the posters that seemed riled up in relation to your posts. Unfortunately from the very first you refused to engage in reasonable discourse and started to give excuses for why you would not provide textual evidence showing how your assertion was shaped. Only after numerous posts in which you projected intentions on others and continued to dance around the core issue did my tone change. In addition I put forth compelling evidence to show why claims such as she had solely "noble" intentions drilling the bore or that she had an "honest" love for Rand are false. So in an attempt to move forward would you please provide evidence for the following statements. Very much look forward to a thrilling conversation.

 

 

(let alone her numerous "rightdoings" which far outnumber her wrongdoings in the text)

 

or bringing it back farther that...

 

Mierin has made mostly honest, ethical, and consistent choices over the course of her life, and has demonstrated a strong humanistic impulse.

 

 

 

I beg to remain, your most humble and obedient servant,

 

Suttree

[RyanL24]

I liked the part about how Robert Jordan didn't know anything about storytelling...

 

Well, as the author of that statement, let me tell you what I wrote actually meant; instead of what you read it to mean.

 

If you said to RJ "In my opinion, Mierin was a good person who just had some really crappy luck." RJ would not tell you "You are not entitled to that opinion" or "Your opinion is wrong" or anything like that. The closest he might say is "That is not the way I percieve her, or the way I intended to portray her in the series." RJ WAS a good story teller, and I know that he knew that different people would interpret his writing in different ways and have different opinions. Every author understands this.

 

 

 

What I don't understand is why some of you people don't understand that other people are entitled to their own opinion, or allowed to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions from what they just read. It baffles me.

 

 

I read Animal Farm (yet again) recently, it's one of my favorites. I love the animals, they're great characters. They take over the farm, it's glorious. You could say that Animal Farm is about the obliteration of totalitarian regimes. To me, it is not. It's just a story about animals. Goerge Orwell said it's about the obliteration of totalitarian regimes. I don't care. That's not what I read in the book. It doesn't interest me, I overlook that part, and I just read a great story about animals. I'm allowed to do that, because Orwell put his work of art out there for each of us to interpret in our own way. You may think it's idiotic to look at this book full of symbolism and parallels and see only a simple story about animals. That's OK. I'm still allowed to interpret it how I like.

[Suttree]

What I don't understand is why some of you people don't understand that other people are entitled to their own opinion, or allowed to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions from what they just read. It baffles me.

 

Which is of course very different from asking someone to present evidence from the text and other sources(Q&A's, BWB) that shaped their conclusions. It is done in every thread, every day on DM. It baffles me as to why you would think a theory that runs counter to most available evidence should not be held up to scrutiny.

[Zentari]

What I don't understand is why some of you people don't understand that other people are entitled to their own opinion, or allowed to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions from what they just read. It baffles me.

 

Which is of course very different from asking someone to present evidence from the text and other sources(Q&A's, BWB) that shaped their conclusions. It is done in every thread, every day on DM. It baffles me as to why you would think a theory that runs counter to most available evidence should not be held up to scrutiny.

This.Because "well, it's MY opinion" is not really a valid basis in this case.

[Sharaman]

It's axiomatic in WoT that even the worst of DFs can turn back to the Light (Rand & Ingtar, TGH).

It's also true that Shaidar tells Graendal in ToM that "another" can have a go at Al'Thor.

After that, Cyndane somehow penetrates Rand's warded dreams with a sob-story.

So, is she that "worst of DFs" returning to the Light? Or the opne who has been Chosen to trap Al'Thor?

Or just maybe, both?

[RyanL24]

What I don't understand is why some of you people don't understand that other people are entitled to their own opinion, or allowed to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions from what they just read. It baffles me.

 

Which is of course very different from asking someone to present evidence from the text and other sources(Q&A's, BWB) that shaped their conclusions. It is done in every thread, every day on DM. It baffles me as to why you would think a theory that runs counter to most available evidence should not be held up to scrutiny.

 

I can see where you are coming from. Somebody asked Emu about that way back. The response was that there is not enough in the text to draw a solid conclusion either way. From what RJ gave us in the text, if you are trying to determine if Mierin was always evil or just a good person forced to the shadow... there's not enough info. You have to draw your own conclusion. The answer to that was quotes from the BWB (which is a history, ie written by the winners from the perspective of the winners (and we were told by RJ that there was incorrect information intentionally placed in the BWB). If there was a Big Black Book (BBB) it would give a list of atrocities committed by LTT, and all for his love of power. etc. And it would sing the praises of the glorious acts achieved by Mierin and them.

 

There were also quotes from Maria, which could be interpreted in different ways. Quotes from Maria!! And the quotes from RJ which do make your side of the argument seem like you have the right opinion. Then we come to the big huge point... it's your opinion, which you are allowed to draw from reading the books or from listening to RJ. It's your experience, do what makes you happiest. Other people will read the books, and that's it, and draw their conclusions from that. They are entitled to their opinion as well, no matter what RJ said in an interview.

 

 

 

In the end, there is nothing in the books that provides solid evidence that Mierin has always been evil. She could have been the very best person in the AoL, and events could have forced her to the Shadow. It is not addressed in the books. There is nothing in the books that contradicts the "missing chapter" I wrote above. It could have been in there, and then everybody would agree with Emu (except maybe not about the insanity bit, where it excuses her actions).

 

Of course the POVs we get see her as pure evil. The common folk think she eats babies or whatever, and her fellow forsaken all hate each other. We all know better. We know she's hawt and therefor cannot be inherintly evil.

 

Anyway, I think that everybody would have at least just said nothing if Emu had not said:

In another story, under another author, she could easily be the protagonist of a great work of epic fantasy

 

The first words in the first reply were "Now how to pick this apart ?" which, I dunno, doesn't seem like the beginning of a constructive conversation. But... whatever. I hope you can understand my view, the way I understand Emu's.