Why are people upset with Sanderson's take on Mat?

[Dagon Thyne]

The fact is that any changes in Mat were orchestrated by RJ himself. Because, Brandon is writing the characters from RJ's notes. So, don't pick on Brandon when it's RJ's doing.

 

 

To expand on this a bit, I believe BS even stated that the only character he had to truly write from scratch was Perrin.

A lot of the Mat scenes were already done or partially done from what I understood.

 

I think Brandon said that he rewrote everything in his own style so that it would be consistent. Even the "completed" ones. Which is why some people still noticed turns of phrase that Sanderson uses in the ToG scenes. So all the detail, action, dialogue are RJs, but the writing style is still Sanderson's. Unlike other parts, where Brandon said there would be one paragraph describing an entire scene and he had to fill in all the detail.

 

Can't remember where I read/heard that... I'm thinking it was in those video interviews that were posted the other day from that Euro website.

 

That sounds quite contrary to what Brandon has said earlier. He has several times said that he has tried to not touch the things RJ wrote, unless absolutely necessary.

 

He meant changing the core details of the story....such as plot twists.....he still has to fill in the small unimportan details that RJ was able to finish before he died, and he tends to do it in his own writing style, instead of trying to mimmick RJ's. There are many examples of these small changes in style. A good example would be the fact that RJ, in earlier books, called the Whitecloan leaders Lord Captains, where BS calls them Lords Captain, putting the plurl on the Lord instead of Captain.

[RyanL24]

Mat's a little off. I'm not upset about it, but it is true. I think that character is the place where it is easiest to see the difference between the two authors.

 

 

Well Matt is gonna be different at the last few books than he was in the earlier ones. I mean, he has been forced to do alot of growing up. He had to act as a father figure of Oliver, stop skirt chasing, after getting married to Tuon, and accept his place as the Marshall General of the Legion of the Dragon (At least I think that will be his position during the Last Battle). He has to accept his new role and that he can't simply do what he wants anymore. He is gonna have less of a sense of humor, and more seriousness.....But there are still signs of the old Matt, like when Moiraine tells Thom she wants to marry him, Matt is completely lost and it's funny to see his reaction.

 

He's gone from covering dogs in flour to scare 14 year olds to being willing to have his eye ripped out in order to save someone. Matt has changed alot during the series and it's only natural that he will seem different, and maybe even a little off to anyone who fell in love with his sense of humor and ale gussling, ass pinching ways.

 

[sarcasm]It's not right that BS changed them. Rand, Perrin, Mat... RJ took all this time to make these characters in the series stay the same for 12 books, and all of a sudden BS comes along and they changed.[sarcasm/]

 

 

I think it didn't matter who finished the series, certain people would hate it and find things to nitpick about. RJ could have faked his death, written the ending under a pseudonym, and we would be reading this same stuff. How many versions of Rand did RJ write? Rand is constantly changing, but so are the people in the real world.

 

Mat's sense of humor changed now that he's hanging out with Talmanes. Not because he's hanging out with a different crowd, but because he's being written by a different author. Kind of like how if you go live in Texas for a month you start saying "y'all", even though in previous "books" you hated the word. That's because whoever is writing you made you do it. Or maybe not...

 

Imagine if you were reading a book about a Freshman in college. You get to see him partying with his friends and swearing up a storm, the things kids get up to. The next book it's summer time, and the hero moves back to his parents' house for the summer. Do you think you would notice a personality change? If the character was different, and his jokes became different, and his manner of speaking became different... you would really say that's because the author sucks? And not that the kid can act one way while hanging out in one environment, and very different while hanging out in another? I would say the author sucked if the kid went home and acted the way he did in college, unless that was part of the story. How he needed to learn how to act with which set of people (you know, he needed to mature and grow up a little).

 

Like somebody else said... if you go from flouring dogs for fun to being willing to lose your eye to save a life, you've grown up a little bit. RJ/BS would not be good authors if Mat was the same immature kid he was when left the Two Rivers. Or if he was the same shady dude carrying a tainted dagger. etc etc.

[Dagon Thyne]

Mat's a little off. I'm not upset about it, but it is true. I think that character is the place where it is easiest to see the difference between the two authors.

 

 

Well Matt is gonna be different at the last few books than he was in the earlier ones. I mean, he has been forced to do alot of growing up. He had to act as a father figure of Oliver, stop skirt chasing, after getting married to Tuon, and accept his place as the Marshall General of the Legion of the Dragon (At least I think that will be his position during the Last Battle). He has to accept his new role and that he can't simply do what he wants anymore. He is gonna have less of a sense of humor, and more seriousness.....But there are still signs of the old Matt, like when Moiraine tells Thom she wants to marry him, Matt is completely lost and it's funny to see his reaction.

 

He's gone from covering dogs in flour to scare 14 year olds to being willing to have his eye ripped out in order to save someone. Matt has changed alot during the series and it's only natural that he will seem different, and maybe even a little off to anyone who fell in love with his sense of humor and ale gussling, ass pinching ways.

 

[sarcasm]It's not right that BS changed them. Rand, Perrin, Mat... RJ took all this time to make these characters in the series stay the same for 12 books, and all of a sudden BS comes along and they changed.[sarcasm/]

 

 

I think it didn't matter who finished the series, certain people would hate it and find things to nitpick about. RJ could have faked his death, written the ending under a pseudonym, and we would be reading this same stuff. How many versions of Rand did RJ write? Rand is constantly changing, but so are the people in the real world.

 

Mat's sense of humor changed now that he's hanging out with Talmanes. Not because he's hanging out with a different crowd, but because he's being written by a different author. Kind of like how if you go live in Texas for a month you start saying "y'all", even though in previous "books" you hated the word. That's because whoever is writing you made you do it. Or maybe not...

 

Imagine if you were reading a book about a Freshman in college. You get to see him partying with his friends and swearing up a storm, the things kids get up to. The next book it's summer time, and the hero moves back to his parents' house for the summer. Do you think you would notice a personality change? If the character was different, and his jokes became different, and his manner of speaking became different... you would really say that's because the author sucks? And not that the kid can act one way while hanging out in one environment, and very different while hanging out in another? I would say the author sucked if the kid went home and acted the way he did in college, unless that was part of the story. How he needed to learn how to act with which set of people (you know, he needed to mature and grow up a little).

 

Like somebody else said... if you go from flouring dogs for fun to being willing to lose your eye to save a life, you've grown up a little bit. RJ/BS would not be good authors if Mat was the same immature kid he was when left the Two Rivers. Or if he was the same shady dude carrying a tainted dagger. etc etc.

 

Matt's sense of responibility changed before BS took over....He was becoming more mature ever since he took in olver. He started drinking less and being careful not to talk about banging serving girls around him. And you are forgetting that most of the character development was done by RJ prior to his death.....BS is simply filling in the details that were not in the notes that RJ left behind....I'm sure that RJ had already figured out what would be done with Rand, Matt, and Perrin before he died.....What's happening with Matt in the last three books is just the changes finally taking form and him growing up completely.

[Superhal]

Wasn't Hinderstrap just part of the prophecy about the dead walking again as a signal of TG? Iirc, it was part of a series of chapters where ghosts were sighted.

[Suttree]

Wasn't Hinderstrap just part of the prophecy about the dead walking again as a signal of TG? Iirc, it was part of a series of chapters where ghosts were sighted.

 

No, IRC Hinderstrap was a "bubble of evil" event...

[Superhal]

Yes, it seems like that on the surface, but it was possibly the most tame bubble yet, as it only affected a small stretch of road for a few seconds. Tear's bubble affected the whole castle, Salidar's bubble affected the camp and the support workers, and the one in Ebou Dar (everything/body turned to dust) was like 4 blocks or something.

 

Edit: Oh, n/m...I was confusing Hinderstap with the village where the peddler sank into the road.

 

Yes, I don't believe Hinderstrap was a bubble either, for the opposite reasons as above. It lasted longer than normal bubbles of evil. All the other bubbles lasted maybe an hour at most (Hinderstap appeared to be in that condition for several months, and they go crazy all night every night.) Also, until that point, the undead (ghosts) had no power to affect living conditions. They also ate, drank, etc. normally during the day, meaning they aren't ghosts, they're something else.

 

My suspicion is that ghosts are caused by a weakening of the barrier between life and death, similar to past-life insanity. In Hinderstap, the barrier is completely gone. Imho, the people in Hinderstrap are zombies, which is why visitors become one of them but Mat was able to escape by leaving the town.

[MasterAblar]

Yes, it seems like that on the surface, but it was possibly the most tame bubble yet, as it only affected a small stretch of road for a few seconds. Tear's bubble affected the whole castle, Salidar's bubble affected the camp and the support workers, and the one in Ebou Dar (everything/body turned to dust) was like 4 blocks or something.

 

The last one was in Tear.

[Majsju]

The fact is that any changes in Mat were orchestrated by RJ himself. Because, Brandon is writing the characters from RJ's notes. So, don't pick on Brandon when it's RJ's doing.

 

 

To expand on this a bit, I believe BS even stated that the only character he had to truly write from scratch was Perrin.

A lot of the Mat scenes were already done or partially done from what I understood.

 

I think Brandon said that he rewrote everything in his own style so that it would be consistent. Even the "completed" ones. Which is why some people still noticed turns of phrase that Sanderson uses in the ToG scenes. So all the detail, action, dialogue are RJs, but the writing style is still Sanderson's. Unlike other parts, where Brandon said there would be one paragraph describing an entire scene and he had to fill in all the detail.

 

Can't remember where I read/heard that... I'm thinking it was in those video interviews that were posted the other day from that Euro website.

 

That sounds quite contrary to what Brandon has said earlier. He has several times said that he has tried to not touch the things RJ wrote, unless absolutely necessary.

 

He meant changing the core details of the story....such as plot twists.....he still has to fill in the small unimportan details that RJ was able to finish before he died, and he tends to do it in his own writing style, instead of trying to mimmick RJ's. There are many examples of these small changes in style. A good example would be the fact that RJ, in earlier books, called the Whitecloan leaders Lord Captains, where BS calls them Lords Captain, putting the plurl on the Lord instead of Captain.

 

Uhm, no. He meant what I wrote he said. If RJ wrote something, it stays, untouched, unless it is absolutley necessary to change it.

[Superhal]

From what I'm reading in this thread, it seems to me that it's not so much that Mat changed but the reason for his change wasn't acceptable. Everybody changed during the course of this book, but it seems that those changes were driven by momentous events (e.g. Perrin's family was slaughtered, Mat and the Finns, Nynaeve marrying Lan, etc.)

 

But, I would argue that lots of character-changing actions happened to Mat, but they just weren't as detailed as for the other characters:

 

1. Marriage. Apparently a good enough reason for Nyn, Faile, Perrin, Egannin, etc. but not good enough for Mat.

2. Killing Renna or his Aiel GF. Again, good enough to change Rand, not good enough for Mat.

3. Death of a loved one (Tylin, Aiel GF.) Good enough for Perrin, Thom (twice), Aram, Dai'shan Aiel, etc., but not good enough for Mat.

4. Becoming a leader. Good enough for Perrin, Galad, Rand, Egwene, etc., but not good enough for Mat.

5. Revenge (in Mat's case, vs. the gholam.) Good enough for Thom, Perrin, Rand, Nynaeve, etc., but not good enough for Mat.

 

And then, he's had life-changing events unique to himself: Meeting the Finns (3 times), dying and being resurrected (three times), killing the gholam, etc.

 

Lots of events at least as momentous as those other characters experience, but their changes are taken in stride, or at least not complained about.

 

So, my question is: if there was a good, acceptable reason Mat changed, would he still be criticized as changing "too much?"

[Mats Spare Hat]

Sandertarding: The act of using character change as rational for shitjob writing.

[capuga]

Sandertarding: The act of using character change as rational for shitjob writing.

 

Unnecessarily rude and unsubstantiated.

[Vambram]

Sandertarding: The act of using character change as rational for shitjob writing.

 

Matsparehatarding: The belief that one knows WOT characters better than the editor of the series, better than Team Jordan, and better than the author selected by RJ's wife to finish her husband's legacy.

[Vambram]

Mat's a little off. I'm not upset about it, but it is true. I think that character is the place where it is easiest to see the difference between the two authors.

 

 

Well Matt is gonna be different at the last few books than he was in the earlier ones. I mean, he has been forced to do alot of growing up. He had to act as a father figure of Oliver, stop skirt chasing, after getting married to Tuon, and accept his place as the Marshall General of the Legion of the Dragon (At least I think that will be his position during the Last Battle). He has to accept his new role and that he can't simply do what he wants anymore. He is gonna have less of a sense of humor, and more seriousness.....But there are still signs of the old Matt, like when Moiraine tells Thom she wants to marry him, Matt is completely lost and it's funny to see his reaction.

 

He's gone from covering dogs in flour to scare 14 year olds to being willing to have his eye ripped out in order to save someone. Matt has changed alot during the series and it's only natural that he will seem different, and maybe even a little off to anyone who fell in love with his sense of humor and ale gussling, ass pinching ways.

 

[sarcasm]It's not right that BS changed them. Rand, Perrin, Mat... RJ took all this time to make these characters in the series stay the same for 12 books, and all of a sudden BS comes along and they changed.[sarcasm/]

 

 

I think it didn't matter who finished the series, certain people would hate it and find things to nitpick about. RJ could have faked his death, written the ending under a pseudonym, and we would be reading this same stuff. How many versions of Rand did RJ write? Rand is constantly changing, but so are the people in the real world.

 

Mat's sense of humor changed now that he's hanging out with Talmanes. Not because he's hanging out with a different crowd, but because he's being written by a different author. Kind of like how if you go live in Texas for a month you start saying "y'all", even though in previous "books" you hated the word. That's because whoever is writing you made you do it. Or maybe not...

 

Imagine if you were reading a book about a Freshman in college. You get to see him partying with his friends and swearing up a storm, the things kids get up to. The next book it's summer time, and the hero moves back to his parents' house for the summer. Do you think you would notice a personality change? If the character was different, and his jokes became different, and his manner of speaking became different... you would really say that's because the author sucks? And not that the kid can act one way while hanging out in one environment, and very different while hanging out in another? I would say the author sucked if the kid went home and acted the way he did in college, unless that was part of the story. How he needed to learn how to act with which set of people (you know, he needed to mature and grow up a little).

 

Like somebody else said... if you go from flouring dogs for fun to being willing to lose your eye to save a life, you've grown up a little bit. RJ/BS would not be good authors if Mat was the same immature kid he was when left the Two Rivers. Or if he was the same shady dude carrying a tainted dagger. etc etc.

 

 

 

Quoted For Truth

 

 

[Suttree]

Come on everybody, some posters may have not been all that tactful but the changes w/ Mat between RJ and BS can not in anyway just be chalked up to character growth alone. There are huge differences in the quality and style of writing between the two. I never bought this marriage has changed him, if anything he came across as more juvenile for parts of TGS and ToM. Check out KoD post leaving the circus and the maldive narrow campaign if you want to see Mat growing into the man he should be.

[Vambram]

Come on everybody, some posters may have not been all that tactful but the chnages w/ Mat between RJ and BS can not in anyway just be chalked up to character growth alone. There are huge differences in the quality and style of writing between the two. I never bought this marriage has changed him, if anything he came across as more juvenile for parts of TGS and ToM. Check out KoD post leaving the circus if you want to see Mat growing into the man he should be.

 

Of course there are differences in styles between RJ's writing and Sanderson's writing. I do not believe that he has come across as more juvenile in the last two books than in previous ones.

I remember that Tuon once compared Mat to an onion, but said that he had many more layers to his personality than the layers of an onion. Mat has never EVER been a simple character. So until the haters can write books... or even short stories that hundreds of thousands of people will buy and read, then I think that the criticisms of the haters against Brandon Sanderson is bogus and short-sighted.

[capuga]

Come on everybody, some posters may have not been all that tactful but the changes w/ Mat between RJ and BS can not in anyway just be chalked up to character growth alone. There are huge differences in the quality and style of writing between the two. I never bought this marriage has changed him, if anything he came across as more juvenile for parts of TGS and ToM. Check out KoD post leaving the circus and the maldive narrow campaign if you want to see Mat growing into the man he should be.

 

But that ^ is a reasonable critique with an explanation on your viewpoint. Which is far different thant making up a rude name using Brandon's name and saying nothing but that his writing is shit.

 

Critiquing/criticizing is fine and valid. But the rudeness and put downs with no explanation as to why the writing fails to live up to their standards that other posters have done is completely unnecessary.

[Suttree]

So until the haters can write books... or even short stories that hundreds of thousands of people will buy and read, then I think that the criticisms of the haters against Brandon Sanderson is bogus and short-sighted.[/font]

 

That is missing the point entirely. The vast majority of people have pointed out the changes they perceived in Mat, it was so extensive that BS felt the need to address the situation. It has nothing to do with being a "hater", I would guess that like myself most think BS has done an admirable job stepping up to an impossible task. What that doesn't mean is that he should be immune to criticism. I was a lit major at a UC school, if what you mentioned above is true than no one aside from other published authors should ever be able to write literary analysis...talk about short sighted.

[Vambram]

So until the haters can write books... or even short stories that hundreds of thousands of people will buy and read, then I think that the criticisms of the haters against Brandon Sanderson is bogus and short-sighted.[/font]

 

That is missing the point entirely. The vast majority of people have pointed out the changes they perceived in Mat, it was so extensive that BS felt the need to address the situation. It has nothing to do with being a "hater", I would guess that like myself most think BS has done an admirable job stepping up to an impossible task. What that doesn't mean is that he should be immune to criticism. I was a lit major at a UC school, if what you mentioned above is true than no one aside from other published authors should ever be able to write literary analysis...talk about short sighted.

 

You are not one of the "haters".

 

Even though I disagree with your criticisms, at least what you have posted has been done both reasonably and intelligently.

 

 

Just remember, Mat is a like an Onion, and just when you think you might have had him figured out almost perfectly, RJ or Sanderson will peel away another layer to reveal another nuance of Mat's personality.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Mat isn't the only one Sanderson's tossed the cookies on either. His ToM Egwene was atrocious.

 

I have no qualms being thought of a hater, or for being rude though so no harm, fellas.

 

I do suggest though, that Sanderson, realizing his ineptitude in writing certain characters, would actively approach a situation from the standpoint that oh, of course that character's off, they're going through character change, which explains why they're acting strange and come off differently...Which is also an awfully convenient situation with which to cover ones own ass, when your writing isn't or hasn't been up to snuff - And you know he's got to have realized that, with actually having to respond to such a level of feedback concerning his characterizations.

 

He's scapegoating character change to cover his shortcomings as a writer.

[Vambram]

Mat isn't the only one Sanderson's tossed the cookies on either. His ToM Egwene was atrocious.

 

I have no qualms being thought of a hater, or for being rude though so no harm, fellas.

 

I do suggest though, that Sanderson, realizing his ineptitude in writing certain characters, would actively approach a situation from the standpoint that oh, of course that character's off, they're going through character change, which explains why they're acting strange and come off differently...Which is also an awfully convenient situation with which to cover ones own ass, when your writing isn't or hasn't been up to snuff - And you know he's got to have realized that, with actually having to respond to such a level of feedback concerning his characterizations.

 

He's scapegoating character change to cover his shortcomings as a writer.

 

And I suggest that you don't know what you are talking about, and that you would find reasons to criticize the characterization of the characters in TGS and TOM even if RJ were still alive and wrote those books himself.

 

"Ineptitude as a writer"

 

Are you serious????

Did you know that Brandon Sanderson is recognized by his peers and by critics to be an outstanding author?

Did you know that in 2011 he won the David Gemmel Legend Award in 2011 for the BEST Fantasy novel of 2010?

That was in recognition for Brandon Sanderson's Way of Kings novel.

[Luckers]

Ok everyone, tone it down. If you want to discuss this, do it nicely, otherwise I'll lock the thread.

[Mr Ares]

He meant changing the core details of the story....such as plot twists.....he still has to fill in the small unimportan details that RJ was able to finish before he died, and he tends to do it in his own writing style, instead of trying to mimmick RJ's. There are many examples of these small changes in style. A good example would be the fact that RJ, in earlier books, called the Whitecloan leaders Lord Captains, where BS calls them Lords Captain, putting the plurl on the Lord instead of Captain.

I know that this is a little bit nitpicky, but RJ used Lords Captain, not Lord Captains.

 

 

Come on everybody, some posters may have not been all that tactful but the changes w/ Mat between RJ and BS can not in anyway just be chalked up to character growth alone. There are huge differences in the quality and style of writing between the two. I never bought this marriage has changed him, if anything he came across as more juvenile for parts of TGS and ToM. Check out KoD post leaving the circus and the maldive narrow campaign if you want to see Mat growing into the man he should be.

I agree with this. To say that Mat has changed as a character is one thing, but that doesn't really explain the abruptness and degree of change perceived by some between Mat at the end of KoD and Mat in TGS and ToM. Character development might be a part, but not the whole. Much of it has to be put down to Sanderson's perception of Mat's character (which will of necessity differ from that of RJ), and his ability as a writer. If BS can't write the same sort of humour that Mat used to use, then either Mat must cease to be funny, or he must be funny in a different way. Either way it's a change in his character, and while we might sympathise with Sanderson for doing his best with a damned difficult job, we can still offer criticism where we feel he has fallen short of the mark - much as we would have done if RJ were still writing.

 

The wider issue of Sanderson's abilities as an author is perhaps better suited to another thread, but while he is not unskilled, there are many fantasy authors writing to day whose work I prefer (notably R. Scott Bakker, Daniel Abraham and Joe Abercrombie. And George R.R. Martin, of course).

[Mats Spare Hat]

@Vambram: Dude, common. I said "Ineptitude at writing certain characters" not "Ineptitude as a writer." It's the post right above your last, for reference.

 

I'll expound if it's helpful for clarification ...realizing his ineptitude at writing certain characters, in the Wheel of Time series, as witnessed in the last two published works, Towers of Midnight, and The Gathering Storm...

 

I've said my peace.

 

*Throws head-knuckle to Luckers

[Luckers]

:)

 

My take on this is that whilst Brandon has considerable skills as a writer, his technique leads towards the blunter, more obvious depiction. If you've listened to his interview on Fantasy Fiction you know that his first draft style involves a lot of place setting--essentially he puts in the obvious content, and later re-edits for flow. When you add that to the huge demand for speedy delivery that was involved in the release of aMoL as a whole then what you get is, sadly, unpolished--a fact we're as much responsible for as Brandon, though admittedly, for all that, I do feel Brandon assumed the responsibility for this in accepting the job, however unpleasent it may have been for him.

 

As a result you get very caricaturish depiction. For the most part this is mainly in the secondary characters, whom likely did not get focus in the secondary edits, however in some cases, like Mat or Cadsuane, it did come through in them appearing more as people [reader/those around them] thought them to be, then what they actually are.

[Hybrid]

I like Mat MORE in tGS and ToM. I thought him and Talmanes and their little quips were hilarious where I laughed out loud for the first time in this series. His story line DOES have a different feel to it than the rest of the book, like it's a separate book altogether with a different style, it reads like a british comedy to me. I can understand people reading the books for so long and never having the FEEL change and being thrown off when that happens. I looked forward to Mat's PoV chapters and really think people are confusing dislike for other feelings like confusion.

 

This is where I dislike Sanderson's portrayal of Mat. I think Sid hit it right on the head in his post earlier.

 

In one of the middle books (ACOS? I'll have to look up the scene again.), Mat is hitting on Betse while Talmanes, Daerid, and Nalesean are present. Compare this scene to the scene in TOM.

 

I don't think Sanderson necessarily erred that much in his portrayal of Mat. He has it, but he overcompensates, tries too hard to make Mat funny. And as a result, Mat appears more cartoonish. Whereas RJ's Mat felt more subtle in his humor. If anything, as Sid said, he was funny because he acted like himself all the time, not because he tried to be funny. So RJ's Mat humor felt natural. Sanderson's feels more forced.

 

In Sanderson's portrayal, I think Mat loses some of the edge that I liked so much about him. In the earlier books, you can understand why most of the characters dismiss Mat as a silly clown, but at the same time you can read deeper into him. In TOM, it feels like that "real Mat" is buried deeper under the comedic layers. He's still there, but you can't see him. And that rings wrong to me.