The Creator

[Majsju]

Kids, if you want to chat about christianity (or any other real world mythology), Debates & discussions is the board for you. Just saying.

[FossMaNo1]

I do believe RJ stated that the reason there was no organised religion (aside from possibly the Children of the Light) was that in a world where the OP was in evidence, there was no real need to call on a God--His power is already among you.

 

I'd also argue that in a world where Fades & trollocs are in evidence (even if not believed by everyone), there really is no need for proof of the Dark One.

 

Those with the OP generally fight the trollocs and other shadowspawn. You don't really need religious dogma to keep you safe when Aes Sedai will.

[FarShainMael]

Kids, if you want to chat about christianity (or any other real world mythology), Debates & discussions is the board for you. Just saying.

 

Maj, calling Christianity (or any other belief system) a 'mythology' is an opinion, and you should acknowledge it as such. I'll leave it there.

[BananaOnDrugs]

I personally don't see why the belief in the Creator would be strange...I mean as far as we know after we get the DO sealed there are ages and ages in which The Creator is chatting with people...like when the portal stones were invented.

 

Or some priests from the time when wolves and people hunted together. Then one day the Creator from the neighbourhood decided to attack our world. The Creator stopped most of him but there was a weak spot in the barrier between creators...the way in which the creator could chat with Randland...way back. Then a hottie decided she could have some power and made the link between Randland and the Creator from next door...

 

PS: In case it's not entirely clear I'm talking about a world of creators that each have their own world...only they have a creator of their own which lives in a world full of upperclass creators...and they...well you get my point. It's like thinking That each electron in an atom could be an entire universe like ours...stuff like that.

 

PPS:I'm sorry I went this off-topic. The point is there could have been an entire age in which he talked to humans and every single human was as sure there is a creator as he is sure he has to breath. Things like that tend to stay for a while...until they fade to legends. And the legends fade to myths. And even the myths are forgotten when The Creator shows up again and says he's the Creator.

 

EDIT: I just read my post...I'm sorry to say that I barely understood what I had meant...and I am in my head. You aren't.

[Terez]

Kids, if you want to chat about christianity (or any other real world mythology), Debates & discussions is the board for you. Just saying.

 

Maj, calling Christianity (or any other belief system) a 'mythology' is an opinion, and you should acknowledge it as such. I'll leave it there.

Do you make the same distinction any time you refer to any non-Christian mythology? If not, then why not?

 

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours”

- Stephen Roberts

[Hadilmir]

I don't think the Creator needs to be featured in the last book. It would greatly detract from the realism of the books.

 

 

*Sarcasm over*

 

I don't understand the *Sarcasm over* part... do you actually want the Creator to step in?

 

 

Balescream.

 

I feel like this should become the one-word answer to every single question. Ever.

[FarShainMael]

Kids, if you want to chat about christianity (or any other real world mythology), Debates & discussions is the board for you. Just saying.

 

Maj, calling Christianity (or any other belief system) a 'mythology' is an opinion, and you should acknowledge it as such. I'll leave it there.

Do you make the same distinction any time you refer to any non-Christian mythology? If not, then why not?

 

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours”

- Stephen Roberts

 

Let's look at your interpretation of the Dark Prophecy in ToM.

 

Consider the phrase 'his destruction'. There are at least three possible interpretations of this:

 

1. His death.

2. His destruction short of death, à la Mesaana.

3. His destruction, as in the destruction he may cause; as Mat might with his cannons, or Perrin might with Mah'alleinir.

 

Yet you pick (1), and ignore (2) and (3) completely! Stephen Roberts would want to know why you did that. So would we.

 

In any case, you have no idea at all why I'm a monotheist, since you have not asked me; you have simply made assumptions. But I really am going to leave the discussion there, before the mods come down on us like a ton of rectangular building things.

[hazelkrs1]

Just wanted to drop in and clear something up: The idea of believing in God, a Creator, or a Higher Power of any kind did NOT come from organized religion. I can't stress this enough; we we're believing in a higher power before we had even developed an advanced means of communication. Organized religion didn't come about until our cultures started to become divided and fractured. Up until that point, humanity more than likely enjoyed tens of thousand of years of not trying to kill one another just because someone had a different opinion about what color God's whiskers were. I hate to sound even more bitter about this subject, but the only real purpose of organized religion is to serve as a means of division between one another. People often confuse this with the purpose of faith, which is to give you a sense of hope and wonder to the world, and to help us resolve the meaning of our own existence. You can, and more than likely very well should, practice faith in something without ever taking part in organized religion.

 

As for the point of this thread, as many have stated, RJ envisioned that in a world in which miracles are commonplace, there would be no need for formal affirmation of faiths and beliefs. That's just formal affirmation though, you don't need a church or cathedral to be able to pray to the Creator. That being said, Randlanders do seem to have a slightly different view considering the Creator than we tend to have concerning whatever God we worship. There is no sense of entitlement with your average Randlander, there doesn't seem to be anyone who ever wants to blame the Creator for something, or ask how the Creator could let something happen. They just accept that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel weaves. It seems they lack some of the intrinsic property in our souls which often makes us question everything around us. This isn't that abnormal however, if you consider that they are in a circular time model, and that we're only seeing perspectives of third Agers, residents of other Ages might have drastically different views concerning religion and God.

[threadnecromancer]

Personally I don't think RJ ever gave a good reason for so many people in this world believing in the existence of the Creator, he argues that in a world where miracles are common place then there would be no need for organised religion to reinforce faith. Fair enough, but I do not think it works very well considering that the world he created has deism, a clockwork universe the only deity who has given any proof of His existence is the Dark One, and even then unless one goes to a particular mountain in the middle of nowhere it is virtually impossible for the past three thousand years or so to contact the Dark One. Miracles really are not all that commonplace in this world, one does not use the One Power by saying "In the name of the Creator rain" and one could easily come up with a completely secular explanation for the One Power but no one does which I have found difficult to believe.

 

I think one explanation for this (as well as why the series is set in the Third Age) beyond simply ripping off Tolkien is that it is partially inspired by Joachim of Fiore's Third Age. That is often described as a priest-less era where organised religion is no longer necessary, which I personally think may have been an influence in how RJ decided to develop society in the Wheel of Time.

[Luckers]

I'm gonna make the point here that it is a mistake to think of the belief system around the Creator as comprable to a religion. The Creator gives no moral of spiritual guiding, and the people of the world do not look to either serve his will, worship him or serve any of the other day to day practical results of formal religion.

 

Belief in the Creator is more like how some people believe in luck. They believe it influences their lives, can bring about profitable situation, even save them in difficult or dangerous situation--but they don't worship, nor need organised religion or a set of beliefs laid as doctrine--and their version of the annecdotal evidence that most belief systems use (records of divine visitation and so forth) need not be so specific, because that evidence comes with no commandments or moral imperitives. As such the One Power, the nature of the Wheel, and perhaps most importantly the verifiable existence of the Dark One serve all the necessary points.

 

As for the Age of Legends--its possible they were able to actually quantify the existence of the Creator--they were able to do so with the Dark One, even if they didn't realise what they'd done.

[hazelkrs1]

Just wanted to throw something in there that I felt was relevant: noone's brought up the whitecloaks, and they're somewhat unique in being the only organization I can think of that is established on the groundws of spiritual and moral zealotry, only problem is in a land without organized religion, how is there any doctrine for them to be overzealous about? It's like they're being overzealous for the sake of being overzealous or something. I would have liked to see Masema and the whitecloaks influence each other somehow, like the Whitecloaks see that Masema was laying out a doctrine for them that would have been perfect for them to adapt and use to their own means.

 

Masema was essentially trying to establish a monopoly for use of the One Power, he thought Rand should be the only one allowed to wield the OP since he had the Creator's permission, being Randland's messiah and whatnot. It would have fit nicely into the Whitecloak perspective if they just accepted the DR as being authentic, then melded together with the Dragonsworn. Would have been a much bigger group that had multiple levels of zealotry (can't get over using Zealot as many times as possible, was the band name of a previous band of mine ), and they could have had interesting effects on the story.

[Suttree]

Just wanted to throw something in there that I felt was relevant: noone's brought up the whitecloaks, and they're somewhat unique in being the only organization I can think of that is established on the groundws of spiritual and moral zealotry, only problem is in a land without organized religion, how is there any doctrine for them to be overzealous about? It's like they're being overzealous for the sake of being overzealous or something.

 

Well remember that when Lothair Mantelar started the WC's it was just a priesthood dedicated to preaching against DFs. Initially the only fighting they did was to defend themselves and it wasn't until many years later that they evolved into a military organization. So they would be overzealous in the quest to root out DFs(as opposed to just preaching against them) and of course that has become twisted over the years as they evolved.

[hazelkrs1]

Just wanted to throw something in there that I felt was relevant: noone's brought up the whitecloaks, and they're somewhat unique in being the only organization I can think of that is established on the groundws of spiritual and moral zealotry, only problem is in a land without organized religion, how is there any doctrine for them to be overzealous about? It's like they're being overzealous for the sake of being overzealous or something.

 

Well remember that when Lothair Mantelar started the WC's it was just a priesthood dedicated to preaching against DFs. Initially the only fighting they did was to defend themselves and it wasn't until many years later that they evolved into a military organization. So they would be overzealous in the quest to root out DFs(as opposed to just preaching against them) and of course that has become twisted over the years as they evolved.

 

That's my point though, that they're essentially fundamentalists to a cause which isn't really laid out in writing anywhere, and yes I know they have a book written by one of their main guys, but I think it doesn't quite justify the extreme moral and spiritual dogmatic culture that exists in the Whitecloaks.

 

They could be extremely discriminatory in trying to root out darkfriends without the added moral we-art-better-than-though attitude that many of them share. I strongly suspect that they were influenced by Ishamael one of the last times Ishamael was free, which would explain both the violent atmosphere to the Children as well as their distrust of Aes Sedai.

[cmsnaith]

This is only my second post in these forums (the first being my introduction), so please be gentle. :)

 

I like this question, just because it's kind of a difficult one, and I don't think it's really be satisfactorily answered here. I doubt I'll suffice to provide one, but I'll give what I hope are some general insights.

 

First, I don't think that the Creator and the Dark One are the same. The Dark One's power seems to be destructive in nature. The taint left by the Dark One causes a form of destruction of the mind of male channelers. The Dark One rules by fear and tyranny, breaking down the basic bonds of trust and mutual respect. The creatures he commands are deformed. He is the master of death, and generally everything associated with him has to do with evil and death.

 

This, to me, seems the opposite of creation. Perhaps the two are closely entwined. In Buddhism, death and destruction are part of the cycle of the world, and lead into rebirth and life.

 

Either way, this doesn't really speak to the real question at hand: the universal acceptance of the reality of the creator.

 

To that I look, as Robert Jordan pointed toward, the Aes Sedai; channelers. It is clear that the forsaken channel the power of the Dark One, and that this power is different that that of Saidin and Saidar. The real question I think that needs to be asked is, who is the Creator? Is the Creator the Pattern? Is the Creator Saidin? Saidar? Both Saidin and Saidar? Or is the Creator something or someone entirely separate? Did the Creator create the Pattern? Did the Creator create Saidin and Saidar? Or, are Saidin and Saidar merely extensions of the Creator's power? Are they extensions of the Creator's essence? In this regard, how alike or unalike are the Dark One and the Creator? When Aes Sedai channel, do they channel the Creator's power?

 

By the evidence that we have, the Dark One is sentient, with a will and mind. We do not have any such evidence regarding the Creator. Yet, we are given implications that the "Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills." Is this merely metaphor, or does the Wheel have a mind and will of its own. Or does the Creator have a mind and will, and turns the Wheel as He/She designs?

 

Or does the wheel simply turn according to laws of balance and necessity? Is it a mindless progression of events whereby the laws of that physical universe drive minds and events toward certain outcomes?

 

It's all very unclear.

 

However, I think what could be said is this: that all of the different races, and cultures and subcultures (excepting, presumably, those of the Atha'an Miere and the People from the other side of the Waste) all had a single origin in the past. The world before the Breaking was unified and whole. The technology we see being used by the Seanchan, for example, came from before the breaking. The Seanchan empire itself was native to the land of the White Tower, originating from Artur Hawkwing, who took his forces across the ocean. The Aiel were once servants of the Aes Sedai.

 

It makes sense that in our world, many different religions have arisen. Our past was fractured and cultures were isolated. This isn't the case in Jordan's world. The land has always been under the thumb of the Aes Sedai, and the past that they shared has lingered. Of the subcutures existing within the Seanchan empire across the ocean, we know virtually nothing. Perhaps they held differing beliefs, which were stamped out by the authoritarian rule of the Seanchan. And of those who live on the other side of the Waste, we also know virtually nothing.

 

Regardless, I don't think belief within the land of the Aes Sedai is as unified as it is being argued here. I myself have noticed subtle variances in what people believe about the world. First, there are various descriptors concerning the simple cosmology of the world. There is the idea of a Creator. There is the idea of a Pattern and Age Laces. There is the idea of a Wheel. I think that not any single one of these ideas is prevalent and overriding. They are intermixed, and not even the Aes Sedai have a very clear idea about the deepest reality of their world. This is why they don't really know how to deal with the Dark One.

 

As has been stated here, there don't seem to be any real religious authorities. Aes Sedai seem to have philosophic and cosmological authority, but there is no real religion.

The Children of the Light, arguably the most religiously fanatic organization in the series, aren't even devoted to the Creator. They are devoted to the Light, and opposed to the Shadow and Darkfriends. Is the Creator identified with the Light? I think it is by some, perhaps Rand and Aes Sedai, but I don't think that's a connection the Whitecloaks themselves clearly make.

 

The Prophet Masema does, I think. But he had no association with the Whitecloaks.

 

I think the point I'm trying to make is this: the belief in a Creator is tied to the ability to Channel, in a similar fashion that Channeling the the Power of the Dark One is associated (obviously) with the Dark One, that this belief is derived from a shared pre-Breaking history, and that this belief is neither clear, nor clearly universally identical.

[Pug]

Or some priests from the time when wolves and people hunted together. Then one day the Creator from the neighbourhood decided to attack our world. The Creator stopped most of him but there was a weak spot in the barrier between creators...the way in which the creator could chat with Randland...way back. Then a hottie decided she could have some power and made the link between Randland and the Creator from next door...

 

PS: In case it's not entirely clear I'm talking about a world of creators that each have their own world...only they have a creator of their own which lives in a world full of upperclass creators...and they...well you get my point. It's like thinking That each electron in an atom could be an entire universe like ours...stuff like that.

 

I understood this completely. I think it makes sense.

 

The Dark One and the Creator are not the same being, I believe in the Big White Book it says that they are the opposites of each other.

[Magicbacon]

I think it's a mistake to look too deeply into why people in the WoT believe in the Creator. Jordan paints his world with a broad brush. A number of little things get lost in the details or don't quite make sense. Why everyone believes in the Creator, the Dark One, and the Wheel of Time is another one of these.

[Luckers]

Just wanted to throw something in there that I felt was relevant: noone's brought up the whitecloaks, and they're somewhat unique in being the only organization I can think of that is established on the groundws of spiritual and moral zealotry, only problem is in a land without organized religion, how is there any doctrine for them to be overzealous about? It's like they're being overzealous for the sake of being overzealous or something.

 

Well remember that when Lothair Mantelar started the WC's it was just a priesthood dedicated to preaching against DFs. Initially the only fighting they did was to defend themselves and it wasn't until many years later that they evolved into a military organization. So they would be overzealous in the quest to root out DFs(as opposed to just preaching against them) and of course that has become twisted over the years as they evolved.

 

I agree, and in fact by the way Galad talked about it, Lothair's doctrine seemed more philosophical than religious, and later it was warped and molded by the War of the Hundred Years, and the hardening effect that had on his followers which ultimately produced the Children of the Light as they are known today.

[mackoY-kun]

In the AoL, it is mostly "said" that there is almost nothing more to discover. In that Age they "believe" in the Creator and later when the bore was made, they found out about the DO. In the current Time Line, they just inherited these beliefs.

[ninpolearner]

I think what you have to remember is this is a fantasy novel. Fantasy and Sci-fi are primarily about power and how its used. This one paints a black and white picture of the duality of good vs. evil and the power struggle between the two. Having multiple factions, i.e. more than one god, would dilute the message of the story. Or just complicated it, and who needs more complications in this 15 tome epic?! RJ's not writing about religion or moral code. He's writing about who gets to rule the world... and the fun part, how that's decided.

 

 

Besides, I think we all know who the creator is... Robert Jordan. ;-) I mean, If I were writing/creating the world, everyone would love me, too. lol

[LeeM.Erickson]

It's 4am, so I'm too tired to go looking up relevant quotes, just a little disclaimer!

 

A good point of reference would be the Age of Legends. Basically, did people believe in the Creator before the Dark One was discovered? I can't recall off-hand. I would say, in such an enlightened utopian society, people probably wouldn't have a frivolous belief in a Creator, and therefore, as Luckers said, there might have been some sort of proof of the Creator's existence then. If not, there's still a few options. We know the Dark One exists, which doesn't prove the existence of the Creator per se, except for the fact that we know the Dark One was imprisoned and had to have been put there by something. If the Creator wasn't known about for sure before the drilling of the Bore, it's possible that information could have actually been learned through the Dark One, relating details about his enemy to his followers, and it may from there have spread into common knowledge.

[Lisa Campbell]

What I find interesting is the catechism (prayer?) about the Dark One and the Forsaken being bound by the Creator at the moment of creation. The Dark One I can understand even though no-one knew he existed, but there weren't any Forsaken until after the Bore was drilled. This smacks of foreshadowing to me and I think it re-enforces the theories that Rand and Moridin are avatars (or will become them in the end).

[mb]

About multiple deities, I would guess seldom there being 3 or more sides of them in polytheistic fiction.

Illiad, Odyssey, and Till We Have Faces seem to be indicators of seldom more than 2 sides. Each 3 I read.

Those stories do not seem too complicated.

 

 

About the catechism, I think it was just the Dark One since the moment of creation.

Most Randlanders I guess understand that the Forsaken came later.

Do not have quotes on these.

[FarShainMael]

"The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time."

 

The bits about the Forsaken and Shayol Ghul read like later additions.

[Luckers]

The whole thing just sounds like an expression of hope, rather than an educated belief. It's more about what people like to think is the case, not what the case is, or might have been. In fact the parts which are right are just as pointless as the parts which aren't, because its only purpose is to make people feel safe.

[FarShainMael]

Well, clearly this catechism was formulated after TSaSG, when people had realised that the Bore had penetrated to the Dark One's domain (whatever that was) and they had become aware of Its existence (if they weren't before). They knew about LTT sealing the FS in with the DO. Some must have wondered why the DO had not taken over the whole of their land anyway, before the Bore; it followed that It must have been restrained somehow from doing so, and the Bore had broken through that restraint.