Aes Sedai guidance?

[Apple13]

What "guidance" did they give Rand?...Moraine did protect him initially but once he had access to the OP,he goes to Tear on his own to lift Callander, he goes on his own(against Moraine's wishes) to the waste to rally the Aiel, he makes the decision(again against Moriane's wishes) to bring the Aiel out of the waste and capture Carhein. He makes his own decision to attack and defeat forsaken at Illian and Andor.

 

Looks to me the As did precious little "guiding" of the dragon from the very beginning.

 

Sure, he did a few things against Moiraine's wishes. But that was after she did a lot of things she did to guide him to his destiny. Fact remains that without Moiraine he wouldn't have even know he was the DR, let alone know all of what to do after. I mean, honestly speaking: Would a simple farmboy have known all about the different Prophesies he would have to fulfil and all the steps he would need to take to fulfil them. Sure, Moirain didn't know everything he was to do. But no one did. Even he wasn't always sure.

 

Anyways, the Aiel were ready to rally around him anyways, and of course they would need to come out of the Waste to do so. And when he lifted Callandor, wasn't it moiraine who balefired Belal?

[XXX]

As I said Moraine helped protect him till he had the ability to protect himself...she did not do any "guiding". Rand did all the major things on his own without any "guidance". The Aiel has helped him a lot more than the AS.

 

Yes Moraine balefired Belal..she "helped" not "guided". There is a big difference between the 2.

[Superhal]

What "guidance" did they give Rand?...Moraine did protect him initially but once he had access to the OP,he goes to Tear on his own to lift Callander, he goes on his own(against Moraine's wishes) to the waste to rally the Aiel, he makes the decision(again against Moriane's wishes) to bring the Aiel out of the waste and capture Carhein. He makes his own decision to attack and defeat forsaken at Illian and Andor.

 

Looks to me the As did precious little "guiding" of the dragon from the very beginning.

 

Sure, he did a few things against Moiraine's wishes. But that was after she did a lot of things she did to guide him to his destiny. Fact remains that without Moiraine he wouldn't have even know he was the DR, let alone know all of what to do after. I mean, honestly speaking: Would a simple farmboy have known all about the different Prophesies he would have to fulfil and all the steps he would need to take to fulfil them. Sure, Moirain didn't know everything he was to do. But no one did. Even he wasn't always sure.

 

Anyways, the Aiel were ready to rally around him anyways, and of course they would need to come out of the Waste to do so. And when he lifted Callandor, wasn't it moiraine who balefired Belal?

 

It seems that around here, Moiraine, Cads, Wondergirls, and others aren't considered "real" AS.

[Apple13]

As I said Moraine helped protect him till he had the ability to protect himself...she did not do any "guiding". Rand did all the major things on his own without any "guidance". The Aiel has helped him a lot more than the AS.

 

You seem to be ignoring Moiraine's role in the first few books, if you say she didn't do any guiding at all. Rand did do some the major things on his own, but he did have guidance with a lot of them.

[XXX]

None of them did any "guiding..they helped. They are helpers a secondary position. They are not equal to the Dragon.

[XXX]

As I said Moraine helped protect him till he had the ability to protect himself...she did not do any "guiding". Rand did all the major things on his own without any "guidance". The Aiel has helped him a lot more than the AS.

 

You seem to be ignoring Moiraine's role in the first few books, if you say she didn't do any guiding at all. Rand did do some the major things on his own, but he did have guidance with a lot of them.

 

Like what did she "guide" him in..."help" is not the same. As I said all the major things were done by Rand himself without any guidance.

[Apple13]

None of them did any "guiding..they helped. They are helpers a secondary position. They are not equal to the Dragon.

 

Did I say that they were equal to Rand? I don't believe I did. And sure Helping is secondary. But so is Guiding. Both are secondary to Acting. As I mentioned before.

[Kahsm]

That's like saying someone's a bad soccer coach if they can't tell a player exactly the path to run down the field in order to score before play actually starts. The field isn't pre-determined, a coach uses their knowledge of how the game is played to try to avoid losing by giving general advice and yelling out plays on the fly based on what others are doing. That's all the Aes Sedai can do. And while they don't know this particular Dragon game inside and out, they're still more knowledgeable than any other team.

 

 

What if the player knows the game a lot more than the coach..does the coach(self assumed position in this instance) still try to "guide" him?

 

And that would apply to who exactly?

 

Just tell me this: How did Rand make his own way to the eye of the world? How did he get there so quickly? Who made it clear Rand had to go to Tar Valon in the first place? Who convinced him to go other places instead once new paths were clear?

 

And best of all, Rand's unwavering belief that Moir would find them in Caemlyn is what kept him going. And with Mat raving about how everyone was already dead and they should run off (because off the dagger) Rand kept going because he believed Moir would know what to do and how to do it. And she did. And they did it. That's no helper -- Rand was dependent on her.

 

Moir, Moir, Moir. Your premise that Rand somehow figures out everything on his own and tows her behind him is ludicrous, to be polite. And when has Egwene ever tried to guide Rand. One quote please. She has a counter opinion, that is not guidance. And her counter opinion is completely reasonable, and obviously expected by Rand himself.

[XXX]

Egwene does not think that she needs to "guide" him?..her first sentence to him after meeting him in ToM is "Are you coming to submit to the WT".

 

Moir advice to go the Tar Valon was obviously wrong..she does not not advice him to go to Tear,the Waste or come out of the Waste..all major decisions she had no role in.

[Kahsm]

Egwene does not think that she needs to "guide" him?..her first sentence to him after meeting him in ToM is "Are you coming to submit to the WT".

 

Moir advice to go the Tar Valon was obviously wrong..she does not not advice him to go to Tear,the Waste or come out of the Waste..all major decisions she had no role in.

 

It wasn't wrong, it changed given new information. Rand wouldn't have had any idea that information required a change to their plan. Moir guided them. And that is undeniable. Though I'm sure you'll try. Or just keep giving examples later on and make categorical claims like,

 

Like what did she "guide" him in..."help" is not the same. As I said all the major things were done by Rand himself without any guidance.

Which is completely ridiculous given... oh all of book 1. She then became his mortal support. She was the one that told him the pattern weaves as the pattern wills. She often did not persuade him one way or another but to trust himself. That is also guidance. And furthermore he obviously felt the most disheartened about having lost her as it was a significant name on his list.

 

So whether you agree or not, Rand seems to believe she was extremely important, and I'm sure most non forum trolls do as well.

[ironisles]

Regardless, Moiraine was something most AS aren't..someone Rand trusted. By the time she vanished into the doorway, he trusted her, and I think would have been close friends with her if she had been around. Unlike Cads, she would have had a much more positive result keeping "Dark" Rand from becoming.

[XXX]

He trusted Moriane after he got an oath from her to obey him..he says repeatedly in the early books that he does not trust her.

 

Calling me a troll won't change the facts that Egwene asked Rand if he came to "submit" to the WT.

[Kahsm]

He trusted Moriane after he got an oath from her to obey him..he says repeatedly in the early books that he does not trust her.

 

Calling me a troll won't change the facts that Egwene asked Rand if he came to "submit" to the WT.

 

He trusted Moiraine all through book 1, at least enough to let her guide him, and she did. And the moral support and cheerleading continued, which is still more than just 'help' or reference person from my coaching analogy.

 

I assume Egwene is the one who you suggest doesn't know as much and is trying to guide, since I never brought her up. But Egwene speaks for the White Tower not herself, so she certainly has no reason to believe the whole of the White Tower knows less than Rand. And LTT's memories stop at the breaking, so there are obviously things the Tower knows that Rand still does not. Rand still knows more i'm sure, but there is no possible way for Egwene to know that or could have guessed. So she asked the question, yes. But she did not demand anything of him, and she even 'tricked' the Hall into allowing her to deal with Rand alone, which clearly suggests she has no plans to box him up. Futhermore, she asked to plan with him, and he shot her down again. Will she try and guide him? Possibly. But we don't know what she'll do when she learns what's been going on while she's been fixing the WT.

[XXX]

Whys should he plan with her?...he is the Dragon she is NOT his equal. It makes as much sense to plan with her as much as the rest of the kings of Randland.

 

Again once Rand come to know about the true nature of the AS..his trust of Moraine disappears and that happens at the end of the first book. From then on he does his own things. And he says again and again that he does not trust Moraine and only after getting an oath from her does he allow her a voice in his plans.

[Kahsm]

Whys should he plan with her?...he is the Dragon she is NOT his equal. It makes as much sense to plan with her as much as the rest of the kings of Randland.

Never said she should, or has to, or has the right to. Simply proving she was willing to be equals, even if he's not.

 

Again once Rand come to know about the true nature of the AS..his trust of Moraine disappears and that happens at the end of the first book. From then on he does his own things. And he says again and again that he does not trust Moraine and only after getting an oath from her does he allow her a voice in his plans.

Irrelevant. She guides him, they do good things, he lubbies her when she dies. His perspective of Aes Sedai doesn't change the fact he would be dead 1000 times, had he not had her guidance at the start. So you simply cannot categorically claim that Rand never needed Aes Sedai guidance. Because he did, he got it, and it worked out.

[XXX]

Guidance is different from help..Moraine helped Rand by keeping him alive till he could defend himself. Nothing more nothing less. All his actions since he began to channel which is at the end of the first book are his and his only. No AS input in any of them...ie from book 2 to 13.

 

Egwene cannot will herself to be his equal..she is not and pretty foolish for even thinking she is in any way.

[Vambram]

After Rand al`Thor's transcendental and transformation in TGS's VoG chapter, all of Rand's actions and words since then have proven clearly that no one else on the Light side is his equal, and should not be treated that way. Also, Egwene does still believe that she is smarter than Rand. She still considers him to be "woolheaded" and that she should be the one to guide him.

 

 

So, who is smarter and has more experience in defeating the DO at the end of TOM?

 

Rand al`Thor... or Egwene?

 

 

 

I believe that the ONLY correct answer is obviously without any doubt at all, Rand al`Thor.

[Kahsm]

After Rand al`Thor's transcendental and transformation in TGS's VoG chapter, all of Rand's actions and words since then have proven clearly that no one else on the Light side is his equal, and should not be treated that way. Also, Egwene does still believe that she is smarter than Rand. She still considers him to be "woolheaded" and that she should be the one to guide him.

 

So, who is smarter and has more experience in defeating the DO at the end of TOM?

 

Rand al`Thor... or Egwene?

 

I believe that the ONLY correct answer is obviously without any doubt at all, Rand al`Thor.

 

And has no reason not to. She hasn't read TGS or TOM yet, they're a few ages away. No one is arguing he SHOULD listen and do what Egwene claims, at least I'm not. I'm simply stating that Moiraine actively and intensively guided Rand through all of the first book. So you cannot say he was never guided by Aes Sedai. I also would claim, though arguably, that her support was still "guidance" later on too. Rand was just more competent and needed less actual direction pointing, and more moral support.

[XXX]

Even before ToM Rand knew a lot more about defeating the DO than Egwene and any AS. I would say since he picked up Callandor and had access to the Tear library.

[Kahsm]

Even before ToM Rand knew a lot more about defeating the DO than Egwene and any AS. I would say since he picked up Callandor and had access to the Tear library.

 

Clearly you do have a really dim view of Aes Sedai of you really don't think any Browns have been to the Tear library?

[Vambram]

Even before ToM Rand knew a lot more about defeating the DO than Egwene and any AS. I would say since he picked up Callandor and had access to the Tear library.

 

Clearly you do have a really dim view of Aes Sedai of you really don't think any Browns have been to the Tear library?

 

At THAT time in the books, there were very few aes sedai who were willing to believe that Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

[XXX]

Even before ToM Rand knew a lot more about defeating the DO than Egwene and any AS. I would say since he picked up Callandor and had access to the Tear library.

 

Clearly you do have a really dim view of Aes Sedai of you really don't think any Browns have been to the Tear library?

 

 

No since they high lords of Tear detested AS and did not allow channelers in the city. Perhaps you really need to read the books instead of calling me a troll.

[Entreri]

After Rand al`Thor's transcendental and transformation in TGS's VoG chapter, all of Rand's actions and words since then have proven clearly that no one else on the Light side is his equal, and should not be treated that way. Also, Egwene does still believe that she is smarter than Rand. She still considers him to be "woolheaded" and that she should be the one to guide him.

 

 

So, who is smarter and has more experience in defeating the DO at the end of TOM?

 

Rand al`Thor... or Egwene?

 

 

 

I believe that the ONLY correct answer is obviously without any doubt at all, Rand al`Thor.

 

 

Rand is definitely smarter than Egwene, he played her like a fine violin.

 

Smartest Forsaken is either Ishamael or Grandael.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

He knows more than the AS..and the AS do not even know what he does not know.

 

Granted he knows more than the AS. But does that knowledge have any relevance to him knowing how to win the game? He only knows what methods won't win the game. He doesn't know what wins the game.

[XXX]

Nor do the AS..that makes Egwene idea about guiding the Dragon and opposing his idea about the seals make her look even more stupid.