The Circularity of Time.

[Bob T Dwarf]

KK -

 

I'll do you the courtesy of assuming that your question was a request for information and not mere rhetoric written in a vain effort to allow you to feel righteous.

 

I've been buying these books for 16 years now. I've paid hard cash for my right to criticize the books and their author.

 

If my posts offend you in some way, then may I suggest that you simply not read them.

 

In any case, please don't insist that I jump on the bandwagon and become a fanboi just so you can feel better about your decision to be one. It won't work.

[Luckers]

One wonders why you have put 16 years and so much money into something that you seem to think is inadequate and wrong at every turn.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not at every turn. Just beginning in about book six and continuing through book ten.

 

I'm an optomist. I still hope something worthwhile will be salvaged from what started in such a promising fashion and then slid downhill rather badly.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Prepare to be dissapointed. I expect the ending to be very satisfying for me, which means you will find it ... ah ... sloppy, I think you called it?

[Luckers]

I too think it will be very satisfying... especially if the Dark One DOES turn out to be a tellytubby.

[KaptainKaos]

ROFL, all around (yes even you Bob). Mr. Dwarf I'm not saying you have to be a fanboy, I'm just saying it seems like you are putting so much effort into wanting the series to be something completely different than what it is, why don't you, just to satisfy yourself just write the last book yourself and pretend like that is the real ending just so you can actually enjoy the rest of the series instead of this love/hate relationship you got going on.

[yolindamo]

ok...

 

I am going to try to remember all the points I wanted to make here. I just read a lot of interesting information that was followed by some inconsequential bickering.

 

I am by nature more of a Sci-Fi girl than a Fantasy girl, though I love both, but anyway...any talk of the nature of time and the space time continuum is fascinating to me. I like the idea that if TG is real and is really coming and is not just a human construct that the circular nature of time will be destroyed and the Wheel will stop turning, but that does not mean the end of the world, just the end of the world as they know it. Nice. If not then I have some issues with some other theories like the ability to channel being wiped out entirely after TG to lead to the next age. It cant be because then it wouldnt be there when that age came around again. But if that age is not coming around again...

 

Other points, because something has never happened is proof it will never happen is not a solid or logical argument.

 

Also, on the Ogier. I always assumed that the sickness they get from leaving the Stedding was because they were not of that world and the Stedding was a little piece of whatever world they are from. I dont know if they can go home at this point, though, considering what we have been discussing about the nature of space and time.

 

Very random, I know, hope it makes sense.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Also, on the Ogier. I always assumed that the sickness they get from leaving the Stedding was because they were not of that world and the Stedding was a little piece of whatever world they are from.

 

Unfortunately, that part can't be true, because the Seanchan Ogier don't experience the Longing, so it is not universal to all Ogier.

[Bob T Dwarf]

yolindamo-

 

As you dig through all the threads here, you will begin to noice a recurring theme. Everybody has his/her own idea about what happened and each wants certain outcomes based on their own preferences. Pretty standard, entirely human stuff.

 

My own preference is similar to yours. I want TG to be a pivotal event that breaks the circularity of existence for this world. Others, for whatever reason, want Time to keep digging the same worn rut deeper and deeper with each turning of the Wheel. Those folks seem to interpret TG as being THE APOCOLYPTIC EVENT as just human longing for something which cannot happen.

 

While we wait for Jordan to make up his mind about how it all shakes out, and let us in on the secret, we bicker. It's cheap. It's shoddy. It's mostly an expression of our own frustration about how it is all taking so long. But, it keeps our simple minds entertained.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Those folks seem to interpret TG as being THE APOCOLYPTIC EVENT as just human longing for something which cannot happen.

 

Yes, what fools we mortals be, who agree with everything the author has written about the nature of the Wheel ... sheer, sheer moronity.

[yolindamo]

Actually, I am not sure I have an opinion on how I want the books to end. I just enjoy conjecture for conjectures sake. There are many endings that I would find pleasing.

 

I remembered the other idea I had stirring. It was back on the whole linear vs. circular time thing. The DO is touching the world, and that is being blamed for a lot of things, but maybe it is that time itself is failing. The Wheel has been spinning for so long that the Pattern has worn thin in places and that is the real reason for some of the strange occurences. I am thinking specifically of the ghosts that have been turning up in storylines with both Mat and Perrin. Maybe they are not ghosts but fade though from other ages because the Pattern has worn so thin in places. (I dont think this is a new idea) If this is the case then the ONLY way to save the world is to destroy the wheel and cicular time and move to linear time. This would change the world drastically, but not end it. This would be the real purpose of TG then, not the destruction of the DO.

 

Edit: I keep forgetting what I want to say...

 

Ok, also, from my feminist theory in college I seem to remember that anything linear is equal to male power and domination and anything circular is equal to female power and domination. The penis vs. the vagina. This theory would apply to time constructs as well, therefore the male hero bringing about the end of circular reality and instituting linear reality changing the world completely. The current world dominated (?) by a female power structure. This destruction brings about the male dominated power stucture and the world as we know it today?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Robert, Jordan has certainly told us HOW THINGS HAVE BEEN. With these books, he's in the process of telling us how things are going to be.

 

If things are going to remain as they have always been, then there is no point at all to this story. The idea that we're all just hamsters, endlessly running inside our little wheel and getting noplace in the process is an awfully nihilistic philospohy. Especially for fantasy fiction.

 

Maybe that's what Jordan is really saying. I hope it is not.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, I prefer the "upward spiral" to the "flat circle. Still cyclical, but with overall "upward" progress. Luckers had a good word for it, that, shamefully, I've forgotten. Started with a "k" I think. Kalpass? Anyway, the cycle doesn't inhibit progression, it enables it. Practice makes perfect kind of thing. It is when the Dark One breaks the cycle that progression is stopped.

 

So, if the Dark One wins, you're right, time stops, and the cycle is over.

 

If Rand & co. win (which is what will happen), the cycle continues. Souls continue to get recycled, hopefully becoming a little purer and better with each turning. To think of it geometrically, think of it as a going up a spiral staircase with no rails. As long as you keep turning, you're going up. If you stop turning, and go straight .... you fall off.

 

But the idea of a "last battle" that is not actually the end is not new to Jordan. Among many others, it was expressed by C.S. Lewis, who actually named the last of the Chronicles of Narnia "The Last Battle". But the destruction of the old Narnia was only the gate to the new Narnia. "Further up and further in." That Narnia in turn led to another, onward and upward, never ending. So with each turning of the Wheel. A "cycle" may not be the best word. "Turning" can imply more than one direction of movement, "around", but "up" as well.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The upward spiral, circular staircase, paradigm is a good one too.

 

This may be a case where I'm guilty of jumping to conclusions. :lol:

 

The endless talk of, "The next time the cycle comes around and the Bore gets drilled again..." led me to only consider what many people are talking about as a flat circle. Mea culpa.

[Luckers]

Kalpas. One S. Spyraling time, in which each turn of the circle has the same outward appearence, and the same key events and all that, but still contains the events of the previous turning, and therefore grows. It's a Hindi concept originally i believe, though its also used in Buddhism, Jainism and Daoism.

 

Stephen King used something similar in the Dark Tower, though a lot of people were angry at him for it.

 

Those folks seem to interpret TG as being THE APOCOLYPTIC EVENT as just human longing for something which cannot happen.

 

Because apocalypses are. Do you have any idea how many theorised 'endings' of the world there have been? Just in the bible alone i've found eight. Eight, seperately defined incidences that were supposed to end the world.

 

Eschatology... ideas about a final end, they are rife in human society. For some reason they appeal to the need for closure in us, and if you think that RJ is unaware of this, simply because you want an apocalyptic battle because it appeals to your sense of drama, then you are going to be disapointed. The reality is that those who named it the Last Battle had no way of knowing it would be anything of the sort. It is neither indicative, nor even really suggestive.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Only one "s" ....

 

-sigh-

 

Now I must immolate myself .... farewell, cruel spelling world!

[Luckers]

For a second then i thought you said 'I must emmulate myself'.

 

I was like... dude... thats kind of a wierd punishment... but if it makes you feel better, go for it.

 

Of course immolate works much better, from a thematic point of view. Go with that.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I like the idea of the helix. The only problem is that a helix is also linear. It spirals upward but it extends outward in a linear fashion. What we have in Randland is something that always doubles back on itself, returning to where it began. So, just in the interest of keeping the discussion going let me propose an alternative.

 

The tennis ball.

 

A hollow sphere. Whatever is inside can't get out, and whatever is outside can't get in.

 

Now, let's say that what is inside our tennis ball is the DO. And he's caustic. So unless steps are taken, he will eat his way out, the acid will become unconfined, and things will get really messy and dangerous.

 

So, what can be done? Well, for one thing, we could just drop the tennis ball into a glass bowl and let the acid do it's thing. So, let's say that the DO is both caustic and aromatically poisonous. So, letting the acid mix with the outside air is out as well. We need some other solution.

 

Assuming we were smart enough to construct such a thing, we could just build a machine that continually applies a new outer coating to our tennis ball. Each turning of the machine about the circumference renews one swath of covering. In essence, we replace the tennis ball's cover at least as fast as the acid consumes it.

 

Problem is, that we can never shut that machine off. Since acid works continuously, the machine must work continuously. That machine is analogous to the Wheel. Life and all of existernce is analogous to the covering of the tennis ball.

 

Now my question. Who is the prisoner? The DO contained in the middle of the ball, or the people contained in the covering? Obviously both. That holds true even if we invert the problem, placing the DO outside, and all of existence on the inner side of the tennis ball. Everyone and everything is forever constrained. As nearly as I can tell that is the situation that obtains in Randland.

 

And, that's just a really depressing situation. I'd like another solution than our machine. I just don't know what that solution might be. That's why I'm hoping Jordan has something really creative up his sleeve.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, there are a couple of holes in that ...

 

Now, let's say that what is inside our tennis ball is the DO. And he's caustic. So unless steps are taken, he will eat his way out, the acid will become unconfined, and things will get really messy and dangerous.

 

Acid can eat its way through a tennis ball without outside help (well some kinds of acid, lets not make this about chemistry) whereas the Dark One needs help from someone in the Pattern in order to create the Bore.

 

Everyone and everything is forever constrained. As nearly as I can tell that is the situation that obtains in Randland.

 

In that sense, we're contained in the real world too. We are prisoners of reality. Unless we're insane.

 

If I understand the imagery you're talking about, then the "tennis ball" of reality would be constantly expanding, as new layers are applied atop the old, and the old are "eaten away". I don't necessarily reject that thinking. It would constitute a form of progress. Each Age is similar to the last, but not exactly the same. Both the "rising kalpas helix spiral" and the "permanently expanding resurfaced tennis ball" models encompass that idea. I'm not sure either is more or less valid than the other. But both invalidate the idea of Tarmon Gai'don being the absolute end, unless the Dark One breaks the current model. So, victory for the Light is the continuation of the Wheel-tennis-ball-kalpas-spiral. The threads being woven into either model are trapped by the fact of their existence, but then, the only method of "freedom" from reality is obliteration.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Exactly. Which is why I hate that as a solution.

 

BTW, the tennis ball doesn't necessarily expand. As the inner layer is eaten away, it would likely create either a depression or a bulge in the surface at its thinnest point. The next layer of "reality" would then just restore the surface at its old location.

 

What I keep looking for is a way out of this box or maze that circular time imposes. So far, I haven't seen one. I keep hoping it's there, but I don't know what it could be as of yet.

[SinisterDeath]

Well, the helix one may be more accurate then you think it is Bob.

 

Look at it this way.

Big Bang -> Billions of years Milky Way -> Billions of years Earth -> billions of years Land, Vegitation -> Millions of years Dinosaurs -> Million years mamals -> Houndred Thousand years Humanoids. -> Ten Thousand + Years Humans. Now AOL would be our Future, But what about the 1st age? Which age would the creation of all existance be? 1st age? Which turning of the wheel was the first 1st age?

Is this the first turning? Or the fifty billionth?

 

What I'm basically saying is this.

Inorder for WoT to be exactly a true perect full circle time thingymagiger.

Escentially 1st age = universe begings 2nd age = earth 3rd age = life on earth, 4th age = humans 5th age = what we think is the 1st age, 6th = 3rd, 7th =4th & Ends with the universe collapsing on its self, and causing the 1st age again, with the big bang.

Now, with the helix cyclical look. Time still goes lineary.

1st 1st age = year 1 billions of years ago. 1st age now = billions of years into the future, 1st age 2nd round = billons more years in the fture. ect ect ect.

Time doesn't go 'backwards' in the aspect that once the wheel makes one revolution everything gets destroyed and recreated, Rather events that happend in the past happen again, and again and again. Which is true on many many levels.

[Luckers]

A hollow sphere. Whatever is inside can't get out, and whatever is outside can't get in.

 

Now, let's say that what is inside our tennis ball is the DO. And he's caustic. So unless steps are taken, he will eat his way out, the acid will become unconfined, and things will get really messy and dangerous.

 

I rather suspect that the Dark One is outside the sphere, and that the Creator is inside, hiding away protected by the wheel.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's kinda my fear, too. :lol:

[Leopoled Boothe]

I remember once reading about a theory that the age-lace itself was the DO's prison which fits very well with the tennis ball theory. So basically the purpose of the wheel, age-lace and the pattern is to constantly refortify the DO's prison. Given that the DO was imprisoned at the moment of creation it could be that the whole purpose of creation was to build a prison for the DO, and that humanity was just a by-product of its construction. Tarmon Gai'don (sp) will be the last battle as far a the wheel is concerned b/c one of two things will happen. Either the DO wins, destroys the wheel and recreates the world in his own image (which possibly translates into building a prison for the Creator) or Rand kills the DO thus eliminating the need for a prison and thus the need for time to be circular. Of couse this would also elimiate the purpose of creation itself, but I'm sure that the Creator will be gracious enough to allow humanity to continue to exist considering that they took care of the DO for him, and will allow time to continue in a linear fashion.

[Guardsman Bass]

One thing; wouldn't the Wheel of Time actually be a very gradual downward spiral?

 

As far as we can tell, they're still subject to Entropy, so unless they're bringing matter in from other universes, or somehow magically reversing it, that would eventually destroy them. That might be a way out of the spiral for you, although not a very good one.