2 Silly questions

[Gordar]

First of all, I didn't know where to post this thread & this part of the forum seemed to be them most appropriate. If I posted it in the wrong forum, I apologise.

 

Theere are 2 questions which have been bothering me for quite a while & I hope you can help me with them.

 

The 1st question is probably the easiest to answer and probably won't lead to a discussion. The 2nd question might lead to a discussion, but I'm not sure about that one either.

 

1. If someone visiting his/her good friends the Eelfin wished to remember all of his/her previous lives, while still staying aware what his or her current life is & being able to act accordingly, wouldn't it break the unwritten rule that all knowledge of the last time age X came to pass is lost? (Let's assume that this person is also capable of leaving the lands of the Eel- and Aelfinn alive)

 

 

 

 

This is a slightly more serious question. It might in fact settle the 'when will people lose the ability to channel' discussion.

 

 

 

2. Is the creation of the world itself also part of the WoT?

 

I myself see 3 (or 4) possible answers.

 

1. Yes, otherwise the Greeks would probably never have come up with something like linear time, most religions wouldn't have much of a creation story, we would remember some previous age or we'd be able to find some physical evidence, which we don't seem to do and the Big Bang theory wouldn't hold for very long. Considering that our age is apparently the 1st age the only solution would be that there is a time (maybe the 7th age?) when there simply is no world. I'll let other people decide how the world is recreated. What I'm essentially saying is that the world's life/existence is cyclical. It constantly repeats the same process, mainly thanks to the influence of the pattern. It's created, people emerge (maybe after the dinosaurs, but that's an entirely different discussion), people learn to channel, the DO is freed, the DO is locked up, enter age 4,5 and eventually 6 and at the end of age 6 the world itself says KABOOM (maybe thanks to human influence, or maybe not, I don't know). The world is created, people appear, etc.

 

If this is the case, then channeling will probably disappear when the world itself is destroyed (not the pattern, not the wheel, not even our souls, just the world)

 

2. No. There was a time of creation, but it happened before the wheel was created. We can safely assume that the memories the people in the 2nd and 3rd age seem to have (Mosk and Merk for example) are memories from the time the wheel was created. Since they existed before the wheel, they kinda stick around, they're static, so to speak. This would mean that that lazy bastard still has to create the WoT. What's a few billion years to a creator anyway, he's just taking his time to make it perfect. The assumption that our age is the 1st age is if fact wrong, since we're not really part of the WoT yet.

 

It might explain why nobody can channel in this age (The creator isn't finished creating yet), but it also means channeling doesn't have to disappear at all. It might, but there's no longer any proof that it will.

 

3. No, the world has always been. All the ideas you mentioned in option 1 are silly notions of underdeveloped people who really don't know anything at all. Dinosaurs, a world that didn't exist once and all those other silly ideas are obviously figments of the imagination or maybe the DO has been whispering in their ears.

 

Please, let the discussion of when the ability to channel will disappear continue for eternity. It will obviously last longer than the actual ability of men and women being able to channel will.

 

4. .... enter your own idea here.

[capuga]

In reply to your first question: Apart from the philosophical question at the end, practically the Finns would not be able to grant your request to have all the memories from your past lives unless all the previous lives of your soul had visited Finnland. It is from visitors to their realm that the Finns get the memories. The ones in Mat's head are from various random people, not his past lives.

 

As for the 2nd - No idea, I'm not much of a philosophical thinker.

[solarz]

What is Time? If you think about it, Time is really a measure of change. If the universe was completely static, (i.e. nothing changed), then Time would have no meaning. Just as Depth does not exist in a 2D universe, Time would not exist in a static universe.

 

Before the Creation, the World did not exist. If the World did not exist, then there could not have been change (related to the World), and thus Time, as we know it, would not exist. Therefore, the act of Creation is what created Time along with the World: the 3 dimensions of physicality and the measure of change in the world that is Time.

 

You can think of the Creator as being outside of Time and the Pattern, and the act of Creation is what set the Wheel of Time spinning.

[Gordar]

What is Time? If you think about it, Time is really a measure of change. If the universe was completely static, (i.e. nothing changed), then Time would have no meaning. Just as Depth does not exist in a 2D universe, Time would not exist in a static universe.

 

Before the Creation, the World did not exist. If the World did not exist, then there could not have been change (related to the World), and thus Time, as we know it, would not exist. Therefore, the act of Creation is what created Time along with the World: the 3 dimensions of physicality and the measure of change in the world that is Time.

 

You can think of the Creator as being outside of Time and the Pattern, and the act of Creation is what set the Wheel of Time spinning.

 

As soon as there is anything, which includes a creator, there is time, unless everything he/she did happened at once or unless he/she was static as well. In the first case, one could claim that there was no creator before time, because the moment the creator was there, so was creation. If the creator was static, then he wouldn't be able to think and certainly wouldn't be able to create.

 

Let's say there's an empty black room with nothing but you in it. Nothing in this room ever changes, except you. You might not change physically, but you'd get bored eventually, which would be a change, or you might think up something new which you decide not to do, which would also be a change. Would you really claim there's no time in this room?

 

However, looking at your answer, I figure you go with option 3. As soon as there was time, there was the world. Before that, there was no creation whatsoever & thus no time. Not the answer I personally agree with, but as good a choice as any other.

[LemonPastie]

As to your first point, Birgette remembers sometime WAY in the past a hint of a story regarding a female warder. I think this is her remembering back far enough in her lives that she is thinking of herself in the previous turning. Also there is the Fisher King, which is Rand from the last turning (so I say anyway). So it seems one full turn is completed when the last bit of info is lost regarding the initial age of the turn. It's just people living too long (Moridin & Birgette) that mess it up

[yoniy0]

It's not a rule, anyways. Nothing would implode if it were to break. It's simply how things usually happen.

[mb]

Memories and the Eelfinn, the Eelfinn would be able to give just memories of those that went through either doorway and/or through Ghenjei Tower.

Some of Mat's memories might have been from past lives, but not all of them since they overlap.

 

 

Creation, I take that to be at the very beginning of each cycle. Which would indicate complete destruction at the very end of each cycle.

[Puny]

What is Time? If you think about it, Time is really a measure of change. If the universe was completely static, (i.e. nothing changed), then Time would have no meaning. Just as Depth does not exist in a 2D universe, Time would not exist in a static universe.

 

Before the Creation, the World did not exist. If the World did not exist, then there could not have been change (related to the World), and thus Time, as we know it, would not exist. Therefore, the act of Creation is what created Time along with the World: the 3 dimensions of physicality and the measure of change in the world that is Time.

 

You can think of the Creator as being outside of Time and the Pattern, and the act of Creation is what set the Wheel of Time spinning.

 

As soon as there is anything, which includes a creator, there is time, unless everything he/she did happened at once or unless he/she was static as well. In the first case, one could claim that there was no creator before time, because the moment the creator was there, so was creation. If the creator was static, then he wouldn't be able to think and certainly wouldn't be able to create.

 

Let's say there's an empty black room with nothing but you in it. Nothing in this room ever changes, except you. You might not change physically, but you'd get bored eventually, which would be a change, or you might think up something new which you decide not to do, which would also be a change. Would you really claim there's no time in this room?

 

However, looking at your answer, I figure you go with option 3. As soon as there was time, there was the world. Before that, there was no creation whatsoever & thus no time. Not the answer I personally agree with, but as good a choice as any other.

 

It´s not necesserily true that as soon as there is something as a creator that there is time. Everything could theoretically be created at once. And there is nothing saying that in the context of Creator she is on another plane that isn´t affected by the concept we know as time. It may be that the created is created in a context were time is "manufactured" thus everything that the Creator made is happening all at once (past, present, future) and the created get the illusion of time cause it´s aqtually their physical/astral bodies that are moving through the space-time, not "time" itself that is moving.

 

And I don´t think RJ says that the creation is static... just that certain things always repeats and keeps coming back?

[yoniy0]

Some of Mat's memories might have been from past lives

Perhaps, but I see no reason to think that of any other memories but his memory of Manetheren (that which had him speaking the Old Tongue during his Healing, and calling Elderine's name when the boys first faced trollocs in battle) was of past lives. And even that one, I'm of the school that Moiraine was right when she said it was due to the 'old blood singing'. But I know many disagree, and I accept the validity of both arguments.

[solarz]

As soon as there is anything, which includes a creator, there is time, unless everything he/she did happened at once or unless he/she was static as well. In the first case, one could claim that there was no creator before time, because the moment the creator was there, so was creation. If the creator was static, then he wouldn't be able to think and certainly wouldn't be able to create.

 

Let's say there's an empty black room with nothing but you in it. Nothing in this room ever changes, except you. You might not change physically, but you'd get bored eventually, which would be a change, or you might think up something new which you decide not to do, which would also be a change. Would you really claim there's no time in this room?

 

However, looking at your answer, I figure you go with option 3. As soon as there was time, there was the world. Before that, there was no creation whatsoever & thus no time. Not the answer I personally agree with, but as good a choice as any other.

 

To take your analogy, if *you* exist in the black room, and you had a conscious though process, then yes, there would be time, because thought processes are also change!

 

However, suppose that room contained the world, and nothing in the room could interact with anything outside the room, and vice versa, then, as someone who lives in that room, what is the meaning of Time *before* that room was created? As far as you are concerned, anything outside of that room does not exist, so to measure Time before the existence of the room would be meaningless to you.

 

Take our universe for example. Suppose that before the Big Bang, the entire universe was just a single, ultra-dense, completely static blob of matter. What is the meaning of Time before the Big Bang then? How can you even define Time without some kind of change occuring? The Creation, or the Big Bang, is the First Change event, and that is when Time begins.

[NetSlider]

Well, the first question I think was answered by Rand at the top of the DM as he seems to remember 100s or 1000s of lives. Maybe that's what it means to be a true Creator's Champion or Chosen One (caps in EotW anyone?). I actually think that Rand is a true Dragon and LTT was not a true true Dragon (kind of like Neo in the Matrix, if this makes any sense; it took another life to reach that point). I'm not sure if Fins can grant this kind of wish but IMO the rule about knowledge of ages was already broken by Rand.

 

As far as second question, that's a good one. It always bothered me that people can travel through distance (gateways) and yet not through time (which I'm glad b/c I'm not a big fan of time travel stories). In theory they "bend" space which was even in books. Does it mean worm halls of some sort? If so, does that not mean they should be able to travel in time (future and past)? I think this is from Einstein though physics is my very weak point so correct me if I'm wrong. In any event, what I'm trying to say here is that the perception of time being linear vs non-linear is kind of weird in WoT IMO. I never gave the moment of creation much thought besides the DO prison's creation (which is a different subject all together).

[NetSlider]

Memories and the Eelfinn, the Eelfinn would be able to give just memories of those that went through either doorway and/or through Ghenjei Tower.

Some of Mat's memories might have been from past lives, but not all of them since they overlap.

 

 

Creation, I take that to be at the very beginning of each cycle. Which would indicate complete destruction at the very end of each cycle.

 

BTW, was it confirmed that Mat is right about his memories being from people that also went through the doorways? I always thought that it's a bit weird explanation .

[capuga]

Memories and the Eelfinn, the Eelfinn would be able to give just memories of those that went through either doorway and/or through Ghenjei Tower.

Some of Mat's memories might have been from past lives, but not all of them since they overlap.

 

 

Creation, I take that to be at the very beginning of each cycle. Which would indicate complete destruction at the very end of each cycle.

 

BTW, was it confirmed that Mat is right about his memories being from people that also went through the doorways? I always thought that it's a bit weird explanation .

 

From all indications it would appear that Mat is correct. Which isn't strange to me. The Finns are traders/bargainers not magic genies. That can trade the memories that they have access to. The only way they have access to them is through taking them from people that have been to their lands. They can't just magically steal memories from all over the universe from anyone they want.

[FarShainMael]

As soon as there is anything, which includes a creator, there is time, unless everything he/she did happened at once or unless he/she was static as well. In the first case, one could claim that there was no creator before time, because the moment the creator was there, so was creation. If the creator was static, then he wouldn't be able to think and certainly wouldn't be able to create.

 

Let's say there's an empty black room with nothing but you in it. Nothing in this room ever changes, except you. You might not change physically, but you'd get bored eventually, which would be a change, or you might think up something new which you decide not to do, which would also be a change. Would you really claim there's no time in this room?

 

However, looking at your answer, I figure you go with option 3. As soon as there was time, there was the world. Before that, there was no creation whatsoever & thus no time. Not the answer I personally agree with, but as good a choice as any other.

 

To take your analogy, if *you* exist in the black room, and you had a conscious though process, then yes, there would be time, because thought processes are also change!

 

However, suppose that room contained the world, and nothing in the room could interact with anything outside the room, and vice versa, then, as someone who lives in that room, what is the meaning of Time *before* that room was created? As far as you are concerned, anything outside of that room does not exist, so to measure Time before the existence of the room would be meaningless to you.

 

Take our universe for example. Suppose that before the Big Bang, the entire universe was just a single, ultra-dense, completely static blob of matter. What is the meaning of Time before the Big Bang then? How can you even define Time without some kind of change occuring? The Creation, or the Big Bang, is the First Change event, and that is when Time begins.

 

I'd like to suggest that Creation and the Big Bang are not synonymous. What created that 'static blob of matter' that you mentioned?

 

The Big Bang is undoubtedly the beginning of the universe we know. But something initiated it. It may have been an explosion of that blob (caused by what?); it may have been a random fluctuation in the basic substrate of space; but then you'd have to ask, what created that blob, that substrate? Has it 'always' existed, whatever 'always' might mean?

 

It's turtles all the way down, folks..

[solarz]

I'd like to suggest that Creation and the Big Bang are not synonymous. What created that 'static blob of matter' that you mentioned?

 

The Big Bang is undoubtedly the beginning of the universe we know. But something initiated it. It may have been an explosion of that blob (caused by what?); it may have been a random fluctuation in the basic substrate of space; but then you'd have to ask, what created that blob, that substrate? Has it 'always' existed, whatever 'always' might mean?

 

It's turtles all the way down, folks..

 

I'm only taking the Big Bang as an analogy to your Black Room analogy. It doesn't matter what caused the Big Bang, as we're only talking about a thought experiment, namely that if there was no change, then there is no such thing as Time. If *something* created the blob of matter and caused the Big Bang, then it certainly exists *outside* of our universe, and thus *its* Time is irrelevant to *our* Time. Even if Time existed for that being prior to the Big Bang, Time did not exist for us.

[nojnomad]

The creator exists in infinite time (3d) like we exist in 3d of space. The wheel is a toy that he/she keeps on his desk to look at when he doesn't want to write the next book. It churns through the same circle if time over and over like some sort of perpetual motion trinket.