Freedom or Security

[Suttree]

 

As to the first you asked why they dont call him Leader of the Band? The quote shows they clearly do, in fact it is the first thing he is called. To the second quote The Captain gets the name wrong and Birgitte in the context of the conversation clearly has no idea what it means. One of the most powerful people in Andor doesn't equate it w/ the Seanchan nor did the Captain. This being the case there is very little chance the commoners know it as anything besides a cool name. No idea why you mention Guybon, he doesn't even bring it up in their conversation as they enter the palace. You would think he would if they were all in "awe" of the title since he mentions just about everything else of note Mat has done. You really need to start backing up your claims with quotes as they are frequently wrong in regards to details in the story.

 

As for your point above there are many non-seanchan commoners that hate them. The Domani and Taraboners are in open revolt fighting a guerilla war against the Seanchan. Tom in KoD references commoners that resent them not including people who have had a wife or relation collared. He then goes on to say the Seanchan will find quite a different reception in Amadacia and Tarabon and indeed they do.

 

so mat is called the leader of the band by some and the raven prince by others. he's both. just because chet says he's the leader of the band means all commoners think the same? wow that's fantastic logical leap right there.

 

just because a noble does not know does not mean the commoners don't know? I don't understand your logic that nobles should know things first when in fact the band's people are telling their stories in Inns and with fellow mercenaries, logic follows that the commoners would know first before nobles.

 

Guybon knows a lot of stories concerning mat from the commoners, he asks mat about those stories, don't you think he'd get that they call him raven prince as well?

 

in the chapter of a Cup of Kaf in KOD: Loune told Karede that their armies bloodied by mat were composed mostly of amadicians and taraboners. it's the nobles that hate the seanchan not the commoners.

 

you really need to start being less arrogant thinking your opinions are facts and not subject to debate.

 

 

You just dont seem to get it. You are the one presenting opinions. Guybon never mentions the title to Mat yet you said he does. You said why dont they call him "Leader of the Band" and I provided a quote showing they do. You claim they all treat the title with "awe" and I proved the Birgitte has no idea what it means. If you think Nobles in this world do not know far more about invading forces than commoners you are totally delusional. All of this is proved with quotes from the book. Now who is presenting opinions here?

 

Arrogance has nothing to do with asking you to provide quotes. Numerous times throughout this thread you have claimed something that has zero basis in the book.

[USURP888]

As for your point above there are many non-seanchan commoners that hate them. The Domani and Taraboners are in open revolt fighting a guerilla war against the Seanchan. Tom in KoD references commoners that resent them not including people who have had a wife or relation collared. He then goes on to say the Seanchan will find quite a different reception in Amadacia and Tarabon and indeed they do.

 

oh really lets see:

 

Chapter: A hell in Maderin:

 

Mat quirked an eyebrow at him.

"they didn't spit when they said the name, Mat. They didn't grimace or growl. They won't fight the Seanchan, not unless Nathin tells them to, and he won't." Thom exhaled heavily. "it's very strange. I've found the same everywhere from Ebou Dar to here. These outlanders come, take charge, impose their laws, snatch up women who can channel, and if the nobles resent them, very few among the common people seem to. Unless they've had awife or relation collared, anyway. Very strange, and it bodes ill for getting them out again. But then, Altara is Altara. I'll wager they're finding a colder reception in Amadicia and Tarabon." He shook his head. "We had best hope they are, else..." He did not say what else, but it was easy to imagine.

 

chapter: A cup of Kaf

 

Gurat thought he had some of them two days ago. He lost four banners of horse and five of foot almost to the last man. Not all dead, but most of the wounded are the next thing to it. Pincushioned with crossbow bolts. Mostly Taraboners and Amadicians, but that isn't supposed to matter is it.

 

 

Thom was saying that very few people resent the seanchan rule. commoners that do resent it are mostly those who's had relatives collared and even Nathin a noble would not fight them, so not even all nobles are against the Seanchan.

 

Thom has no proof that others would resent the seanchan, he is hoping they do, he cites Amadicia and Tarabon and yet we see alot of the seanchan armies are composed of Amadicians and Taraboners.

 

Follow your own advice and start reading the book without blinders and stop taking things out of context maybe.

[USURP888]

 

As to the first you asked why they dont call him Leader of the Band? The quote shows they clearly do, in fact it is the first thing he is called. To the second quote The Captain gets the name wrong and Birgitte in the context of the conversation clearly has no idea what it means. One of the most powerful people in Andor doesn't equate it w/ the Seanchan nor did the Captain. This being the case there is very little chance the commoners know it as anything besides a cool name. No idea why you mention Guybon, he doesn't even bring it up in their conversation as they enter the palace. You would think he would if they were all in "awe" of the title since he mentions just about everything else of note Mat has done. You really need to start backing up your claims with quotes as they are frequently wrong in regards to details in the story.

 

As for your point above there are many non-seanchan commoners that hate them. The Domani and Taraboners are in open revolt fighting a guerilla war against the Seanchan. Tom in KoD references commoners that resent them not including people who have had a wife or relation collared. He then goes on to say the Seanchan will find quite a different reception in Amadacia and Tarabon and indeed they do.

 

so mat is called the leader of the band by some and the raven prince by others. he's both. just because chet says he's the leader of the band means all commoners think the same? wow that's fantastic logical leap right there.

 

just because a noble does not know does not mean the commoners don't know? I don't understand your logic that nobles should know things first when in fact the band's people are telling their stories in Inns and with fellow mercenaries, logic follows that the commoners would know first before nobles.

 

Guybon knows a lot of stories concerning mat from the commoners, he asks mat about those stories, don't you think he'd get that they call him raven prince as well?

 

in the chapter of a Cup of Kaf in KOD: Loune told Karede that their armies bloodied by mat were composed mostly of amadicians and taraboners. it's the nobles that hate the seanchan not the commoners.

 

you really need to start being less arrogant thinking your opinions are facts and not subject to debate.

 

 

You just dont seem to get it. You are the one presenting opinions. Guybon never mentions the title to Mat yet you said he does. You said why dont they call him "Leader of the Band" and I provided a quote showing they do. You claim they all treat the title with "awe" and I proved the Birgitte has no idea what it means. If you think Nobles in this world do not know far more about invading forces than commoners you are totally delusional. All of this is proved with quotes from the book. Now who is presenting opinions here?

 

 

does all = birgitte? did you study logic 101?

did anybody spit or curse when they mention the title the Prince of the Raven? give me quote

 

where do the AS get their news? from nobles? are their eyes and ears nobles or commoners? where did the news of falme come from? from merchants, traders.

what is the way shown to us that people get their news, is it not via wagon merchants?

 

show me a quote where it is said that news come from nobles.

[Suttree]

As for your point above there are many non-seanchan commoners that hate them. The Domani and Taraboners are in open revolt fighting a guerilla war against the Seanchan. Tom in KoD references commoners that resent them not including people who have had a wife or relation collared. He then goes on to say the Seanchan will find quite a different reception in Amadacia and Tarabon and indeed they do.

 

oh really lets see:

 

Chapter: A hell in Maderin:

 

Mat quirked an eyebrow at him.

"they didn't spit when they said the name, Mat. They didn't grimace or growl. They won't fight the Seanchan, not unless Nathin tells them to, and he won't." Thom exhaled heavily. "it's very strange. I've found the same everywhere from Ebou Dar to here. These outlanders come, take charge, impose their laws, snatch up women who can channel, and if the nobles resent them, very few among the common people seem to. Unless they've had awife or relation collared, anyway. Very strange, and it bodes ill for getting them out again. But then, Altara is Altara. I'll wager they're finding a colder reception in Amadicia and Tarabon." He shook his head. "We had best hope they are, else..." He did not say what else, but it was easy to imagine.

 

chapter: A cup of Kaf

 

Gurat thought he had some of them two days ago. He lost four banners of horse and five of foot almost to the last man. Not all dead, but most of the wounded are the next thing to it. Pincushioned with crossbow bolts. Mostly Taraboners and Amadicians, but that isn't supposed to matter is it.

 

 

Thom was saying that very few people resent the seanchan rule. commoners that do resent it are mostly those who's had relatives collared and even Nathin a noble would not fight them, so not even all nobles are against the Seanchan.

 

Thom has no proof that others would resent the seanchan, he is hoping they do, he cites Amadicia and Tarabon and yet we see alot of the seanchan armies are composed of Amadicians and Taraboners.

 

Follow your own advice and start reading the book without blinders and stop taking things out of context maybe.

 

As many have pointed out that only refers to Ebou Dar and their are distinct reasons why that is the case. Thom's opinion that they wont find the same reception is backed up in the books with the guerilla war happening against the Seanchan. Are you totally forgetting the scenes with Ituralde leading the revolt across Tarabon and all the commoners raising up and switching sides?

[Suttree]

 

As to the first you asked why they dont call him Leader of the Band? The quote shows they clearly do, in fact it is the first thing he is called. To the second quote The Captain gets the name wrong and Birgitte in the context of the conversation clearly has no idea what it means. One of the most powerful people in Andor doesn't equate it w/ the Seanchan nor did the Captain. This being the case there is very little chance the commoners know it as anything besides a cool name. No idea why you mention Guybon, he doesn't even bring it up in their conversation as they enter the palace. You would think he would if they were all in "awe" of the title since he mentions just about everything else of note Mat has done. You really need to start backing up your claims with quotes as they are frequently wrong in regards to details in the story.

 

As for your point above there are many non-seanchan commoners that hate them. The Domani and Taraboners are in open revolt fighting a guerilla war against the Seanchan. Tom in KoD references commoners that resent them not including people who have had a wife or relation collared. He then goes on to say the Seanchan will find quite a different reception in Amadacia and Tarabon and indeed they do.

 

so mat is called the leader of the band by some and the raven prince by others. he's both. just because chet says he's the leader of the band means all commoners think the same? wow that's fantastic logical leap right there.

 

just because a noble does not know does not mean the commoners don't know? I don't understand your logic that nobles should know things first when in fact the band's people are telling their stories in Inns and with fellow mercenaries, logic follows that the commoners would know first before nobles.

 

Guybon knows a lot of stories concerning mat from the commoners, he asks mat about those stories, don't you think he'd get that they call him raven prince as well?

 

in the chapter of a Cup of Kaf in KOD: Loune told Karede that their armies bloodied by mat were composed mostly of amadicians and taraboners. it's the nobles that hate the seanchan not the commoners.

 

you really need to start being less arrogant thinking your opinions are facts and not subject to debate.

 

 

You just dont seem to get it. You are the one presenting opinions. Guybon never mentions the title to Mat yet you said he does. You said why dont they call him "Leader of the Band" and I provided a quote showing they do. You claim they all treat the title with "awe" and I proved the Birgitte has no idea what it means. If you think Nobles in this world do not know far more about invading forces than commoners you are totally delusional. All of this is proved with quotes from the book. Now who is presenting opinions here?

 

 

does all = birgitte? did you study logic 101?

did anybody spit or curse when they mention the title the Prince of the Raven? give me quote

 

where do the AS get their news? from nobles? are their eyes and ears nobles or commoners? where did the news of falme come from? from merchants, traders.

what is the way shown to us that people get their news, is it not via wagon merchants?

 

show me a quote where it is said that news come from nobles.

 

 

Nobles and AS have the best information networks period. They are the ones that the merchants report to as they are the ones with the money.

 

 

Usurp just please stop with all the belligerence. Every time something you have claimed is proven wrong you jump to another subject and totally ignore what has come before. The point wasn't if "people spit or curse" when they hear the title your initial claim was that "everyone treats the title with awe and respect", that they know all about the Seanchan and how they are such good rulers, that is plainly not the case and it is on you to prove that it is. If most commoners in Andor knew what the title means the General of the country most certainly would. It is common sense that Nobles know more about the royalty and titles of other nations. To claim otherwise is totally ridiculous.

[USURP888]

As for your point above there are many non-seanchan commoners that hate them. The Domani and Taraboners are in open revolt fighting a guerilla war against the Seanchan. Tom in KoD references commoners that resent them not including people who have had a wife or relation collared. He then goes on to say the Seanchan will find quite a different reception in Amadacia and Tarabon and indeed they do.

 

oh really lets see:

 

Chapter: A hell in Maderin:

 

Mat quirked an eyebrow at him.

"they didn't spit when they said the name, Mat. They didn't grimace or growl. They won't fight the Seanchan, not unless Nathin tells them to, and he won't." Thom exhaled heavily. "it's very strange. I've found the same everywhere from Ebou Dar to here. These outlanders come, take charge, impose their laws, snatch up women who can channel, and if the nobles resent them, very few among the common people seem to. Unless they've had awife or relation collared, anyway. Very strange, and it bodes ill for getting them out again. But then, Altara is Altara. I'll wager they're finding a colder reception in Amadicia and Tarabon." He shook his head. "We had best hope they are, else..." He did not say what else, but it was easy to imagine.

 

chapter: A cup of Kaf

 

Gurat thought he had some of them two days ago. He lost four banners of horse and five of foot almost to the last man. Not all dead, but most of the wounded are the next thing to it. Pincushioned with crossbow bolts. Mostly Taraboners and Amadicians, but that isn't supposed to matter is it.

 

 

Thom was saying that very few people resent the seanchan rule. commoners that do resent it are mostly those who's had relatives collared and even Nathin a noble would not fight them, so not even all nobles are against the Seanchan.

 

Thom has no proof that others would resent the seanchan, he is hoping they do, he cites Amadicia and Tarabon and yet we see alot of the seanchan armies are composed of Amadicians and Taraboners.

 

Follow your own advice and start reading the book without blinders and stop taking things out of context maybe.

 

As many have pointed out that only refers to Ebou Dar and their are distinct reasons why that is the case. Thom's opinion that they wont find the same reception is backed up in the books with the guerilla war happening against the Seanchan. Are you totally forgetting the scenes with Ituralde leading the revolt across Tarabon and all the commoners raising up and switching sides?

 

did you even read the quotes I gave to contradict what you just said about thom's opinion on the matter? Ituralde and all his nobles, was backed up and about to die because the Seanchan has him surrounded. If those farmers behind the Seanchan army really wanted to fight, don't you think Ituralde would've armed them and gotten 200k more troops out of them? it is clear those farmers were told they would just be used as decoys so they obliged their lords and nobles.

 

The farmers trailing the seanchan was a ruse, they were not meant to fight. If those farmers wanted to fight they could've and would've joined Ituralde's main army like the farmers flocking to Perrin's army. Any man willing to fight will do so. The farmers behind would have marched if their nobles ordered them to, that does not mean that they wanted to die for them.

[USURP888]

 

As to the first you asked why they dont call him Leader of the Band? The quote shows they clearly do, in fact it is the first thing he is called. To the second quote The Captain gets the name wrong and Birgitte in the context of the conversation clearly has no idea what it means. One of the most powerful people in Andor doesn't equate it w/ the Seanchan nor did the Captain. This being the case there is very little chance the commoners know it as anything besides a cool name. No idea why you mention Guybon, he doesn't even bring it up in their conversation as they enter the palace. You would think he would if they were all in "awe" of the title since he mentions just about everything else of note Mat has done. You really need to start backing up your claims with quotes as they are frequently wrong in regards to details in the story.

 

As for your point above there are many non-seanchan commoners that hate them. The Domani and Taraboners are in open revolt fighting a guerilla war against the Seanchan. Tom in KoD references commoners that resent them not including people who have had a wife or relation collared. He then goes on to say the Seanchan will find quite a different reception in Amadacia and Tarabon and indeed they do.

 

so mat is called the leader of the band by some and the raven prince by others. he's both. just because chet says he's the leader of the band means all commoners think the same? wow that's fantastic logical leap right there.

 

just because a noble does not know does not mean the commoners don't know? I don't understand your logic that nobles should know things first when in fact the band's people are telling their stories in Inns and with fellow mercenaries, logic follows that the commoners would know first before nobles.

 

Guybon knows a lot of stories concerning mat from the commoners, he asks mat about those stories, don't you think he'd get that they call him raven prince as well?

 

in the chapter of a Cup of Kaf in KOD: Loune told Karede that their armies bloodied by mat were composed mostly of amadicians and taraboners. it's the nobles that hate the seanchan not the commoners.

 

you really need to start being less arrogant thinking your opinions are facts and not subject to debate.

 

 

You just dont seem to get it. You are the one presenting opinions. Guybon never mentions the title to Mat yet you said he does. You said why dont they call him "Leader of the Band" and I provided a quote showing they do. You claim they all treat the title with "awe" and I proved the Birgitte has no idea what it means. If you think Nobles in this world do not know far more about invading forces than commoners you are totally delusional. All of this is proved with quotes from the book. Now who is presenting opinions here?

 

 

does all = birgitte? did you study logic 101?

did anybody spit or curse when they mention the title the Prince of the Raven? give me quote

 

where do the AS get their news? from nobles? are their eyes and ears nobles or commoners? where did the news of falme come from? from merchants, traders.

what is the way shown to us that people get their news, is it not via wagon merchants?

 

show me a quote where it is said that news come from nobles.

 

 

Nobles and AS have the best information networks period. They are the ones that the merchants report to as they are the ones with the money.

 

 

Usurp just please stop with all the belligerence. Every time something you have claimed is proven wrong you jump to another subject and totally ignore what has come before. The point wasn't if "people spit or curse" when they hear the title your initial claim was that "everyone treats the title with awe and respect", that they know all about the Seanchan and how they are such good rulers, that is plainly not the case and it is on you to prove that it is. If most commoners in Andor knew what the title means the General of the country most certainly would. It is common sense that Nobles know more about the royalty and titles of other nations. To claim otherwise is totally ridiculous.

 

if the merchants are the ones who report, then that means that they know the news first. get a grip, you claim NOBLES know the news first.

 

I have proven with the 2 chapters I cited that the Seanchan are accepted by the commoners, even some of the nobles. Try to read

 

you fail at logic, this is my last post on this matter, I don't want to continue talking to you about it.

[Suttree]

As for your point above there are many non-seanchan commoners that hate them. The Domani and Taraboners are in open revolt fighting a guerilla war against the Seanchan. Tom in KoD references commoners that resent them not including people who have had a wife or relation collared. He then goes on to say the Seanchan will find quite a different reception in Amadacia and Tarabon and indeed they do.

 

oh really lets see:

 

Chapter: A hell in Maderin:

 

Mat quirked an eyebrow at him.

"they didn't spit when they said the name, Mat. They didn't grimace or growl. They won't fight the Seanchan, not unless Nathin tells them to, and he won't." Thom exhaled heavily. "it's very strange. I've found the same everywhere from Ebou Dar to here. These outlanders come, take charge, impose their laws, snatch up women who can channel, and if the nobles resent them, very few among the common people seem to. Unless they've had awife or relation collared, anyway. Very strange, and it bodes ill for getting them out again. But then, Altara is Altara. I'll wager they're finding a colder reception in Amadicia and Tarabon." He shook his head. "We had best hope they are, else..." He did not say what else, but it was easy to imagine.

 

chapter: A cup of Kaf

 

Gurat thought he had some of them two days ago. He lost four banners of horse and five of foot almost to the last man. Not all dead, but most of the wounded are the next thing to it. Pincushioned with crossbow bolts. Mostly Taraboners and Amadicians, but that isn't supposed to matter is it.

 

 

Thom was saying that very few people resent the seanchan rule. commoners that do resent it are mostly those who's had relatives collared and even Nathin a noble would not fight them, so not even all nobles are against the Seanchan.

 

Thom has no proof that others would resent the seanchan, he is hoping they do, he cites Amadicia and Tarabon and yet we see alot of the seanchan armies are composed of Amadicians and Taraboners.

 

Follow your own advice and start reading the book without blinders and stop taking things out of context maybe.

 

As many have pointed out that only refers to Ebou Dar and their are distinct reasons why that is the case. Thom's opinion that they wont find the same reception is backed up in the books with the guerilla war happening against the Seanchan. Are you totally forgetting the scenes with Ituralde leading the revolt across Tarabon and all the commoners raising up and switching sides?

 

did you even read the quotes I gave to contradict what you just said about thom's opinion on the matter? Ituralde and all his nobles, was backed up and about to die because the Seanchan has him surrounded. If those farmers behind the Seanchan army really wanted to fight, don't you think Ituralde would've armed them and gotten 200k more troops out of them? it is clear those farmers were told they would just be used as decoys so they obliged their lords and nobles.

 

The farmers trailing the seanchan was a ruse, they were not meant to fight. If those farmers wanted to fight they could've and would've joined Ituralde's main army like the farmers flocking to Perrin's army. Any man willing to fight will do so. The farmers behind would have marched if their nobles ordered them to, that does not mean that they wanted to die for them.

 

How does Thoms' quote contradict what I said? He mentions that amongst the commoners even a few that haven't had relations collared are resentful. So out of the entire population we have the nobles, people with family that have been collared and a "few" of the commoners resentful of the Seanchan presence. For a country with a small population like Altara that is a fair amount. Keep in mind Altara is the one country where they even have that much support.

 

Now on to Tarabon guess what if you are a farmer and are used as a decoy your in revolt! Do you think the Seanchan would just say "oh right you just tricked my army to have them slaughtered, since you didn't actually fight youre cool"!!?? Ituralde didn't want to gather a large army. His strategy was to stay light, use guerilla tactics and the animosity of the local populace against the Seanchan. Who do you think hides a guerilla force? The locals!

 

I have proven with the 2 chapters I cited that the Seanchan are accepted by the commoners, even some of the nobles. Try to read

 

You have not even come remotely close to doing so. We have one quote from Thom that is open to interpretation(Tarabon is in open revolt) and you have shown that a portion of the Seanchan army in one corner of the country has some conscripted local forces, and that the noble for one small town is following Seanchan orders because he fears them. That is all.

 

Before you claim I fail at logic you may want to go back and read this thread. Count how many people disproved your claims over and over. You had maybe one poster argue your perspective. Faulty logic? This coming from someone who said Damane are comparable to Randland commoners and why should we hate on the Seanchan when Monarchies do the same. Errmmm yeah.

[USURP888]

These outlanders come, take charge, impose their laws, snatch up women who can channel, and if the nobles resent them, very few among the common people seem to. Unless they've had awife or relation collared, anyway.

 

How does Thoms' quote contradict what I said? He mentions that amongst the commoners even a few that haven't had relations collared are resentful. So out of the entire population we have the nobles, people with family that have been collared and a "few" of the commoners resentful of the Seanchan presence. For a country with a small population like Ebou Dar that is a fair amount of the country. Keep in mind Ebou Dar is the one country where they even have that much support.

 

LOL reading comprehension FTL. that's it the we've jumped the shark. let's just move on.

[RyanL24]

 

Nobles and AS have the best information networks period. They are the ones that the merchants report to as they are the ones with the money.

 

I just squirted milk out of my nose. Which side are you trying to argue?

 

 

The Nobles have the money. The merchants (commoners) have the information. The nobles pay the commoners for the information, so they know the information more better. And heard it more firster.

 

Just trying to straighten this out in my head, that's all....

[Suttree]

 

Nobles and AS have the best information networks period. They are the ones that the merchants report to as they are the ones with the money.

 

I just squirted milk out of my nose. Which side are you trying to argue?

 

 

The Nobles have the money. The merchants (commoners) have the information. The nobles pay the commoners for the information, so they know the information more better. And heard it more firster.

 

Just trying to straighten this out in my head, that's all....

 

No worries, I'm arguing the AS and Nobles have the networks comprised of merchants. Both are very different from your average farmer or citizen living in a city. The point came from Usurp claiming your average Andoran citizen not only knows what the title "Prince of Ravens" but also treats it with awe and respect. I argued that if Birgitte and Elayne don't know the title nor it's meaning, there is very little chance your average commoner does. Usurp then replied it is the commoners with all the knowledge not the nobles. Regardless you can't classify those few people that gather info as knowing the same as your average every day citizen. It is laughable to think a street tough knows more of foreign titles and their meaning then the Queen of Andor.

 

 

I don't see non seanchan commoners hating them, in fact the books emphasize that tinkers, invaded folks and even Rand feel the seanchan are good rulers.

 

Yes you do the Taraboners are burning the supply depots in open revolt and waging war with Ituralde. As for Rand, like David pointed out he only saw a small sliver of Seanchan rule, was half insane, and doesn't exactly have time to figure out what makes a good ruler himself. His opinion is very suspect in this case.

 

so mat is called the leader of the band by some and the raven prince by others. he's both. just because chet says he's the leader of the band means all commoners think the same? wow that's fantastic logical leap right there.

 

Actually there is no leap of logic. You claimed "so why don't they call Mat, the Leader of the Band then?" and I proved with a quote that they do...that is all. It was kind of like when you claimed Damane were treated the same as Randland commoners and then tried to deny it. I provided the quote showing you did. Or when you said "we have no shred of evidence" that Seanchan nobility sleep with their slaves? Thaed proved that one wrong. How about Andor is not an electoral monarchy or how Elayne only needed soldiers not the votes? Mr. Ares set you straight. Uhmm when you said Guybon "certainly" knew of and referred to Mat as the Prince of Ravens? Not so certain, actually not at all. Or "I don't see non seanchan commoners hating them"? Proved wrong yet again since Tarabon is in rebellion. I could go on and on and on but I think people get the gist by now.

 

if the merchants are the ones who report, then that means that they know the news first. get a grip, you claim NOBLES know the news first.

 

If you can find me the quote where I said that please do so(hint: it doesn't exist). What I said was nobles such as Elayne would know far more about an invading force, the titles of nobility and how their government works. According to you the local cobbler has a better grip on foreign policy than the general of Andor

[Suttree]

For the most part I agree with your post, especially the conclusion. Seanchan offers greater security and Randland offers greater freedom.

The Westlands are not a monolithic bloc, they are a bunch of countries, and even some unclaimed land, and different places will offer different degrees of freedom and protection. Take the TR for example - prior to the start of the series they had no government interference, having the freedom to get on with things as they wanted, while also being very secure (due to natural defences and isolation). Seanchan has precious little to offer them. Andor in general seems better on the freedom front than Seanchan while not sacrificng much, if anything, in terms of security. Illian as well seems not too bad, though we have spent less time there than Andor so it's hard to judge. TV loses nothing to the Seanchan on either front. In fact, given the Empire has a history of being wracked by violent conflict it can't guarantee security. As it is, they were able to benefit civil war-wracked Tarabon and disunited Altara - thus an immediate benefit in terms of security. Meanwhile Rand was (eventually) able to restore order to Arad Doman, thus providing the security, but not really curbing freedoms. Thus the Seanchan model is deeply flawed in terms of what it can offer - a diminishing of freedom, but not always a gain in security.

 

This...good call all around.

[Awakened]

The rationale behind the use of damane is to control a dangerous person, the root of it being that the channelers back in seanchan then were power hungry and destructive.

Of course that's clearly nonsense, since nothing is stopping the sul'dam from being as destructive and power-hungry as an unleashed channeller.

 

Except most damane are controlled by the state. So while anyone can be a sul'dam and do what they want, if you aren't trusted by the Empire you don't get to channel.

[Apple13]

The rationale behind the use of damane is to control a dangerous person, the root of it being that the channelers back in seanchan then were power hungry and destructive.

Of course that's clearly nonsense, since nothing is stopping the sul'dam from being as destructive and power-hungry as an unleashed channeller.

 

Except most damane are controlled by the state. So while anyone can be a sul'dam and do what they want, if you aren't trusted by the Empire you don't get to channel.

 

I thought damane could be bought? Didn't Egeanin say she owned a damane back home? She said she had to pay a fortune to get her trained or something. Personally if random people can go around owning damane, it kind of defeats the purpose of keeping them chained for "security".

 

Also, just because the state controls a lot of the damane doesn't mean anything much. The state can't keep tabs on the whereabouts of every single damane or her suldam. It probably wouldn't take much for a suldam to sneak her damane out of their training places or whatever, especially since suldam are generally highly regarded. No one would really think to question a suldam about her damane.

[Suttree]

The rationale behind the use of damane is to control a dangerous person, the root of it being that the channelers back in seanchan then were power hungry and destructive.

Of course that's clearly nonsense, since nothing is stopping the sul'dam from being as destructive and power-hungry as an unleashed channeller.

 

Except most damane are controlled by the state. So while anyone can be a sul'dam and do what they want, if you aren't trusted by the Empire you don't get to channel.

 

I thought damane could be bought? Didn't Egeanin say she owned a damane back home? She said she had to pay a fortune to get her trained or something. Personally if random people can go around owning damane, it kind of defeats the purpose of keeping them chained for "security".

 

Also, just because the state controls a lot of the damane doesn't mean anything much. The state can't keep tabs on the whereabouts of every single damane or her suldam. It probably wouldn't take much for a suldam to sneak her damane out of their training places or whatever, especially since suldam are generally highly regarded. No one would really think to question a suldam about her damane.

 

Yup wealthy Seanchan do own personnel damane. We have aslo seen a few instances, just in the main storyline, of Damane smuggled out of captivity by suldam or those posing as them.

[Awakened]

The rationale behind the use of damane is to control a dangerous person, the root of it being that the channelers back in seanchan then were power hungry and destructive.

Of course that's clearly nonsense, since nothing is stopping the sul'dam from being as destructive and power-hungry as an unleashed channeller.

 

Except most damane are controlled by the state. So while anyone can be a sul'dam and do what they want, if you aren't trusted by the Empire you don't get to channel.

 

I thought damane could be bought? Didn't Egeanin say she owned a damane back home? She said she had to pay a fortune to get her trained or something. Personally if random people can go around owning damane, it kind of defeats the purpose of keeping them chained for "security".

 

Also, just because the state controls a lot of the damane doesn't mean anything much. The state can't keep tabs on the whereabouts of every single damane or her suldam. It probably wouldn't take much for a suldam to sneak her damane out of their training places or whatever, especially since suldam are generally highly regarded. No one would really think to question a suldam about her damane.

 

I also thought it said that almost all damane were owned by nobility or whatever and Egeanin was a rare case. Yeah, maybe you could buy a damane the same way that a rich SOB today might be able to buy his own battle ship, but it would be the exception rather than the rule and so it isn't the kind of thing you have to worry about.

[Suttree]

The rationale behind the use of damane is to control a dangerous person, the root of it being that the channelers back in seanchan then were power hungry and destructive.

Of course that's clearly nonsense, since nothing is stopping the sul'dam from being as destructive and power-hungry as an unleashed channeller.

 

Except most damane are controlled by the state. So while anyone can be a sul'dam and do what they want, if you aren't trusted by the Empire you don't get to channel.

 

I thought damane could be bought? Didn't Egeanin say she owned a damane back home? She said she had to pay a fortune to get her trained or something. Personally if random people can go around owning damane, it kind of defeats the purpose of keeping them chained for "security".

 

Also, just because the state controls a lot of the damane doesn't mean anything much. The state can't keep tabs on the whereabouts of every single damane or her suldam. It probably wouldn't take much for a suldam to sneak her damane out of their training places or whatever, especially since suldam are generally highly regarded. No one would really think to question a suldam about her damane.

 

I also thought it said that almost all damane were owned by nobility or whatever and Egeanin was a rare case. Yeah, maybe you could buy a damane the same way that a rich SOB today might be able to buy his own battle ship, but it would be the exception rather than the rule and so it isn't the kind of thing you have to worry about.

 

Well yeah, they are mostly(but not always) owned by the blood. Those same nobles that are constantly scheming and assassinating one another. That would be the group most likely to use them to ill purpose, and is most likely what happened in the "numerous" rebellions that Karede mentions having put down.

[Superhal]

As an American, I do agree with the idea that individual freedom is paramount.

 

However, merely disagreeing with the idea of damane doesn't go far enough, imho. Everybody in Randland is a slave to the Pattern. Take Bridgette, for instance. Her soul can never be freed from the pattern, and every time she is given a chance at life, her mate has already been pre-selected. Looking at it from one perspective, the Pattern is forcing her to fall in love with Gaidal Cain against her will, the same with Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.

 

However, if you accept that the Pattern is the ultimate slave driver, than the Seanchan become far less repulsive. Slaves in their society can rise to high status, and it seems that the lives of the Blood are worse in some aspects than the slaves. Also, imho, male channelers pre-BT were treated far worse than damane. Both male and female channelers are treated worse in Sharad. Apprentice Wise Ones, Accepted, and nearly anyone in Seafolk society can be beaten, strapped, birched, etc. usually without the benefit of healing.

 

Overall, once I realized that the Pattern has enslaved everyone across multiple dimensions, the non-American ideas among the cultures became less repulsive to me, and then I could appreciate the story more.

[Zentari]

As an American, I do agree with the idea that individual freedom is paramount.

 

However, merely disagreeing with the idea of damane doesn't go far enough, imho. Everybody in Randland is a slave to the Pattern. Take Bridgette, for instance. Her soul can never be freed from the pattern, and every time she is given a chance at life, her mate has already been pre-selected. Looking at it from one perspective, the Pattern is forcing her to fall in love with Gaidal Cain against her will, the same with Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.

 

However, if you accept that the Pattern is the ultimate slave driver, than the Seanchan become far less repulsive. Slaves in their society can rise to high status, and it seems that the lives of the Blood are worse in some aspects than the slaves. Also, imho, male channelers pre-BT were treated far worse than damane. Both male and female channelers are treated worse in Sharad. Apprentice Wise Ones, Accepted, and nearly anyone in Seafolk society can be beaten, strapped, birched, etc. usually without the benefit of healing.

 

Overall, once I realized that the Pattern has enslaved everyone across multiple dimensions, the non-American ideas among the cultures became less repulsive to me, and then I could appreciate the story more.

While I agree with the premise ("Hey, guess what ; You were born in the Trolloc Wars! Enjoy being eaten !") are you seriously comparing the laws of the universe to those that some misguided humans made ?

[Superhal]

As an American, I do agree with the idea that individual freedom is paramount.

 

However, merely disagreeing with the idea of damane doesn't go far enough, imho. Everybody in Randland is a slave to the Pattern. Take Bridgette, for instance. Her soul can never be freed from the pattern, and every time she is given a chance at life, her mate has already been pre-selected. Looking at it from one perspective, the Pattern is forcing her to fall in love with Gaidal Cain against her will, the same with Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.

 

However, if you accept that the Pattern is the ultimate slave driver, than the Seanchan become far less repulsive. Slaves in their society can rise to high status, and it seems that the lives of the Blood are worse in some aspects than the slaves. Also, imho, male channelers pre-BT were treated far worse than damane. Both male and female channelers are treated worse in Sharad. Apprentice Wise Ones, Accepted, and nearly anyone in Seafolk society can be beaten, strapped, birched, etc. usually without the benefit of healing.

 

Overall, once I realized that the Pattern has enslaved everyone across multiple dimensions, the non-American ideas among the cultures became less repulsive to me, and then I could appreciate the story more.

While I agree with the premise ("Hey, guess what ; You were born in the Trolloc Wars! Enjoy being eaten !") are you seriously comparing the laws of the universe to those that some misguided humans made ?

 

Opposite, actually. I'm saying that simply because the values in a fictional universe are different than those in real life, that shouldn't detract from our enjoyment of it.

[JKN-SW]

As an American, I do agree with the idea that individual freedom is paramount.

 

However, merely disagreeing with the idea of damane doesn't go far enough, imho. Everybody in Randland is a slave to the Pattern. Take Bridgette, for instance. Her soul can never be freed from the pattern, and every time she is given a chance at life, her mate has already been pre-selected. Looking at it from one perspective, the Pattern is forcing her to fall in love with Gaidal Cain against her will, the same with Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.

 

However, if you accept that the Pattern is the ultimate slave driver, than the Seanchan become far less repulsive. Slaves in their society can rise to high status, and it seems that the lives of the Blood are worse in some aspects than the slaves. Also, imho, male channelers pre-BT were treated far worse than damane. Both male and female channelers are treated worse in Sharad. Apprentice Wise Ones, Accepted, and nearly anyone in Seafolk society can be beaten, strapped, birched, etc. usually without the benefit of healing.

 

Overall, once I realized that the Pattern has enslaved everyone across multiple dimensions, the non-American ideas among the cultures became less repulsive to me, and then I could appreciate the story more.

While I agree with the premise ("Hey, guess what ; You were born in the Trolloc Wars! Enjoy being eaten !") are you seriously comparing the laws of the universe to those that some misguided humans made ?

 

As I understand it, very few of the individuals have their whole life predestined by the pattern. I remermber reading something along the lines that "less important" threads in the pattern have a greater freedom than "more important" ones, and probably Ta'veren beeing the ones most strictly used by the pattern and thus given very litte personal freedom.

[Zentari]

Opposite, actually. I'm saying that simply because the values in a fictional universe are different than those in real life, that shouldn't detract from our enjoyment of it.

I see.Still, we are going to judge those values based on our own more or less.

 

As I understand it, very few of the individuals have their whole life predestined by the pattern. I remermber reading something along the lines that "less important" threads in the pattern have a greater freedom than "more important" ones, and probably Ta'veren beeing the ones most strictly used by the pattern and thus given very litte personal freedom.

Which doesn't really make it better.What about the "lesser" threads that were born when the trolloc feeding camps were everywhere ? Some people get the short end of the stick because it's the age when the DO runs free.

[Erunion]

Appreciating that the pattern already controls most of these peoples destinies anyway does not make the acts of the Seanchan, in their creation and treatment of Damane/Da'covale, any less reprehensible.

These are humans, doing awful things to other humans. Whether or not the pattern already controls their lives is irrelevant. Furthermore, there exists no comparison between Da'covale/Damane and people accepted/novices/apprentice WO's/Seafolk. The a/n/awo's/sf's all have ample opportunity for improvement, and everyone who would be ordering their punishments/work details is (or was, at one point) in the exact same situation the a/n/awo's/sf's are currently. These people are being trained towards improvement. Da'covale and Damane, on the other hand, are being beaten into submission.

There is an incredibly large gap between these two things.

[Suttree]

However, if you accept that the Pattern is the ultimate slave driver, than the Seanchan become far less repulsive. Slaves in their society can rise to high status, and it seems that the lives of the Blood are worse in some aspects than the slaves. Also, imho, male channelers pre-BT were treated far worse than damane. Both male and female channelers are treated worse in Sharad. Apprentice Wise Ones, Accepted, and nearly anyone in Seafolk society can be beaten, strapped, birched, etc. usually without the benefit of healing.

 

I have seen this put forth by a few people now and it seems there some misunderstanding to how the Seanchan slave system actually works. Yes Soh'jin to the high blood can rise to positions of power but they are in themselves a hereditary class! There is very little social movement between the classes in Seanchan culture. People are so desperate for any type of upward mobility that they sell themselves and future generations of their family into slavery for a very rare chance at advancement. So while the Soh'jin to the Empress may have more power than some of the very low blood, saying the Blood are worse of than slaves is extremely inaccurate.

 

As for the treatment of channelers, I don't want to put words in your mouth but are you comparing punishment giving to Apprentices, Accepted and Sea Folk WF's with that of Damane?

 

I'll wait for your answer before I touch the above but in terms of the pre-BT male channelers there is no comparison. The Damane system destroys your identity and makes you into something less than human with the intention of being inescapable. While the other leaves you depressed while saving you from madness and an excruciating death, with at least the possibility of recovery.

[Superhal]

 

As for the treatment of channelers, I don't want to put words in your mouth but are you comparing punishment giving to Apprentices, Accepted and Sea Folk WF's with that of Damane?

 

 

Thank you for waiting. I'm saying every culture treats some part of itself poorly. Some better, some worse. Compared to the Pattern, what the Seanchan do is minuscule. Maybe if we ignored the pattern and lined up everybody else on a scale of cruelty, the Seanchan would be near the top. However, all of them added together can't compare to the Pattern. In that sense, on a relative scale that includes the pattern, they would all be nearly equal.