Aes Sedai and the White Tower

[Zentari]

Can you? Let's try. Off the top of my head, and in no particular order: Moiraine, Siuan, Leane, Tamra, Gitara, Cadsuane, Pevara, Seane, Saerin, Yukiri, Tarna, Dosaine, Bera, Kiruna, Verin, Anaiya, Teslyn, Merise. Not to mention Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne. and Theodorin and Faolin, to a lesser degree.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few.

...that's a nice list, if only incorrect.Moir,Siuan,Cad and Verin to be sure but the rest ? The rest are only slightly less incompetent than the rest.That does not mean they are competent themselves , it just means the standard is pretty low.

[Suttree]

40 years after being raised and it took 10 years to push the shadow back..after their leader went back to sleep? From what I can tell it is Ishy going back to sleep that turned the tide of the war.

 

Whatever good the AS supposedly has done, the fact that they needed to institute the three oaths shows that Randland DOES NOT trust them anymore. The only inference I can see is that they used to be lying conniving bunch of women and the rulers and the people of Randland has had enough of them. We saw that in Seanchan, the people was so fed up with them that they actually cheered and thought it good when all channelers there were chained like dogs, maybe if the AS did not institute the three oaths in Randland something similar could've happened.

 

You have the years wrong, Ishy went to back to sleep and then it took 50 years. 40 to life the seige of Tar Valon and another ten to push the shadow back. Read up on her if you want to better understand the situation.

 

BTW your example of of the Seanchan is totally off base. The situations are so different as to not even be comparable.

 

Can you? Let's try. Off the top of my head, and in no particular order: Moiraine, Siuan, Leane, Tamra, Gitara, Cadsuane, Pevara, Seane, Saerin, Yukiri, Tarna, Dosaine, Bera, Kiruna, Verin, Anaiya, Teslyn, Merise. Not to mention Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne. and Theodorin and Faolin, to a lesser degree.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few.

...that's a nice list, if only incorrect.Moir,Siuan,Cad and Verin to be sure but the rest ? The rest are only slightly less incompetent than the rest.That does not mean they are competent themselves , it just means the standard is pretty low.

 

HAHA yeah totally low competence level for the rest of the list. Nyn just discovering how to heal stilling, removing the taint and smacking down forsaken. She must suck. Gitara put into events that lead to the Dragon being reborn. Utter fool her. etc etc etc for the rest of the list.

 

I also would like to point out every woman on the list has been working for the greater good against the shadow. Not a useless meddler in the bunch.

 

I can count on one hand the number of Aes Sedai I actually think have been competent and helpful in the overall scheme of things.

 

Please do so, that must be quiet an interesting hand.

[Sleeper]

Can you? Let's try. Off the top of my head, and in no particular order: Moiraine, Siuan, Leane, Tamra, Gitara, Cadsuane, Pevara, Seane, Saerin, Yukiri, Tarna, Dosaine, Bera, Kiruna, Verin, Anaiya, Teslyn, Merise. Not to mention Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne. and Theodorin and Faolin, to a lesser degree.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few.

You do realize that's your opinion, right? Just like what I said above was my opinion. In my opinion, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Verin, Nynaeve, and Siuane are competent and useful Aes Sedai that have largely helped the world. I don't think Egwene's policies have helped, I don't think Elayne's have, etc. Some of the other Aes Sedai you've mentioned certainly have done useful things, but additionally epitomize and propagate a certain Aes Sedai mentality and policy that I find to be counterproductive, and in the long run, of no benefit to helping the world.

 

So yes, I can list all the Aes Sedai that I find to be worthwhile individuals on one hand.

[David Selig]

40 years after being raised and it took 10 years to push the shadow back..after their leader went back to sleep? From what I can tell it is Ishy going back to sleep that turned the tide of the war.

 

Whatever good the AS supposedly has done, the fact that they needed to institute the three oaths shows that Randland DOES NOT trust them anymore. The only inference I can see is that they used to be lying conniving bunch of women and the rulers and the people of Randland has had enough of them. We saw that in Seanchan, the people was so fed up with them that they actually cheered and thought it good when all channelers there were chained like dogs, maybe if the AS did not institute the three oaths in Randland something similar could've happened.

Don't forget that the curent attitude towards channellers in Seanchan is a result of centuries of Imperial propaganda against them. Who knows how they were regarded back in Luthair's day. If all normal people there hated them so much, I doubt the consolidation of Seanchan Empire would've taken so long as it did (800 years IIRC) since they would've joined the cause of the Empire more readily.

 

People would naturally be wary and distrustful of those with superpowers. The necessity of the introduction of the Oaths doesn't necessary mean that the Aes Sedai were lying more than the average person before that.

[Zentari]

HAHA yeah totally low competence level for the rest of the list. Nyn just discovering how to heal stilling, removing the taint and smacking down forsaken. She must suck. Gitara put into events that lead to the Dragon being reborn. Utter fool her. etc etc etc for the rest of the list.

For the record , I did not consider the wondergirls part of the whole Aes sedai structure but sure, add three in it, four with Gitara.Still, you do realize that the Aes sedai are kinda more than a few dozens right ? Statistically it's pathetically low.

 

I also would like to point out every woman on the list has been working for the greater good against the shadow. Not a useless meddler in the bunch.

And once again , less uselessness does not mean you are useful.It means that you are not totally useless.

[Sleeper]

I also would like to point out every woman on the list has been working for the greater good against the shadow. Not a useless meddler in the bunch.

And once again , less uselessness does not mean you are useful.It means that you are not totally useless.

Exactly my thinking.

[yoniy0]

So yes, I can list all the Aes Sedai that I find to be worthwhile individuals on one hand.

I see. Yes, you have just as much a right to your opinion as I do mine.

 

Still, if Seane and Pevara don't get even the credit of being 'worthwhile individuals' from you, I have to say I consider your standards exceptionally high. Leane? Never mind.

[Suttree]

And once again , less uselessness does not mean you are useful.It means that you are not totally useless.

 

I really would like to understand where you are coming from on this one. Could you please pick a few from that list and show us how they haven't been successfully working against the Shadow?

 

Also I like how the bar has been changed throughout the course of this debate. It started out the AS weren't even working towards the greater good. Now it has been changed to well 'most" of them just aren't that successful.

[Sleeper]

So yes, I can list all the Aes Sedai that I find to be worthwhile individuals on one hand.

I see. Yes, you have just as much a right to your opinion as I do mine.

 

Still, if Seane and Pevara don't get even the credit of being 'worthwhile individuals' from you, I have to say I consider your standards exceptionally high. Leane? Never mind.

Yes, my standards are very high. I quite dislike Aes Sedai in general, so it takes quite a bit for one of them to get off my shit list

 

People like Leane and Pevara I'm ambivalent towards. I honestly think Leane mainly was useful just because she was able to carry out Siuan's plans, not by any ability of her own. Pevara's a mixed bag, she's done quite a bit of good stuff and proven herself to be one of the more pragmatic Aes Sedai of the bunch, but some of the bad stuff she's done has also knocked her down a couple pegs in my books.

[DemandredFO]

The AS may have been useful once, but now they are disfunctional as an organization. There are threads upon threads explaining the uselessness of AS. As much as I hate Egwene, I must say without there would be now WT, the Seanchan would've destroyed it. Other than Egwene, a Brown, not green, took command, and at least one of the most useful AS was Verin and she's BA. Most AS assume the Tower knows best without bothering to consult anyone. Egwene considers the WO's friends, yet she wants to manipulate them into the Tower.

[Zentari]

And once again , less uselessness does not mean you are useful.It means that you are not totally useless.

 

I really would like to understand where you are coming from on this one. Could you please pick a few from that list and show us how they haven't been successfully working against the Shadow?

 

So I'm supposed to show that they haven't done anything ? How does one go about doing that exactly ? Let me reverse it , in what way do the Aes sedai in that list have really helped the light ? Sniffing at men and drinking tea ?

 

 

It's quite easy to see where I'm coming from this one.Just because they are a few decent Aes sedai it does not mean that as a whole they are decent , nor that the decent ones among them are particularly decent. It simply means that they are more decent than others, no more, no less.

[yoniy0]

I dare you to find more than a handful of people south of the borderlands who ever did half the average AS does against the Shadow. Perhaps helping a single peace treaty to be signed or killing a fist of trollocs isn't much, but most every AS has done something of the sort at one point or another. The southerners? Nope.

 

Moiraine, Siuan, Tamra, Gitara, Verin - I take it I don't need to explain what they did against the Shadow, right?

Leane - preserved Logain with Siuan, helped making Egwene the Amyrlin, helped Egwene gain control, directly helped deposing Elaida.

Cadsuane - caught how many false dragons and male channelers? Almost exposed the Black once, fought Shadowspawn without a doubt, saved Rand's life multiple times, enabled the Cleansing of the Source...

Pevara, Seaine, Searin, Yukiri, Dosaine - fought the Black, exposed a few. Helped Egwene keep the Tower from falling apart (hey, if that's not important, why did Mesaana do anything in her power to make it happen?). Searin helped repel the Seanchan. Pevara's helping mend relations with the Ashaman, not to mention her role in whatever's going down right now at the BT

Tarna - saved somethings from Elaida's blunderings. That's enough, in my book. And she tried doing something about the Ashaman.

Bera, Kiruna - been instrumental in leading the AS who swore to Rand. Helped saving him from the Shaido. Did good on his behalf.

Anaiya - helped Moiraine in the past. Helped Egwene in recent times.

Teslyn - well, not much beyond warning the supergirls, that's right. Oh, yeah, she saved Mat from the Gholam. And she has a good head on her shoulders, we've seen that.

Merise - in the Cleansing alone she did more for the Light than almost anyone else who wasn't there. For that matter:

Elza - killed a Forsken. The only AS ever to do so (well, Moiraine was instrumental in Lanfear's death, Nynaeve in Rahvin's).

[Finnssss22]

I dare you to find more than a handful of people south of the borderlands who ever did half the average AS does against the Shadow. Perhaps helping a single peace treaty to be signed or killing a fist of trollocs isn't much, but most every AS has done something of the sort at one point or another. The southerners? Nope.

 

Moiraine, Siuan, Tamra, Gitara, Verin - I take it I don't need to explain what they did against the Shadow, right?

Leane - preserved Logain with Siuan, helped making Egwene the Amyrlin, helped Egwene gain control, directly helped deposing Elaida.

Cadsuane - caught how many false dragons and male channelers? Almost exposed the Black once, fought Shadowspawn without a doubt, saved Rand's life multiple times, enabled the Cleansing of the Source...

Pevara, Seaine, Searin, Yukiri, Dosaine - fought the Black, exposed a few. Helped Egwene keep the Tower from falling apart (hey, if that's not important, why did Mesaana do anything in her power to make it happen?). Searin helped repel the Seanchan. Pevara's helping mend relations with the Ashaman, not to mention her role in whatever's going down right now at the BT

Tarna - saved somethings from Elaida's blunderings. That's enough, in my book. And she tried doing something about the Ashaman.

Bera, Kiruna - been instrumental in leading the AS who swore to Rand. Helped saving him from the Shaido. Did good on his behalf.

Anaiya - helped Moiraine in the past. Helped Egwene in recent times.

Teslyn - well, not much beyond warning the supergirls, that's right. Oh, yeah, she saved Mat from the Gholam. And she has a good head on her shoulders, we've seen that.

Merise - in the Cleansing alone she did more for the Light than almost anyone else who wasn't there. For that matter:

Elza - killed a Forsken. The only AS ever to do it (well, Moiraine was instrumental in Lanfear's death, Nynaeve in Rahvin's).

 

 

...except Elza is Black, so I'm not sure if you really want to count her on that list. Especially considering it's highly likely she only did what she did because she was under some level of compulsion, compliments of Verin IMO

Moiraine has 2 Forsaken kills under her belt, you forgot about Be'lal apparently

[Zentari]

I dare you to find more than a handful of people south of the borderlands who ever did half the average AS does against the Shadow. Perhaps helping a single peace treaty to be signed or killing a fist of trollocs isn't much, but most every AS has done something of the sort at one point or another. The southerners? Nope.

What exactly does the average AS do ? I'm not asking what they themselves THINK they do, I'm asking what they REALLY do.

 

 

Leane - preserved Logain with Siuan, helped making Egwene the Amyrlin, helped Egwene gain control, directly helped deposing Elaida.

Cadsuane - caught how many false dragons and male channelers? Almost exposed the Black once, fought Shadowspawn without a doubt, saved Rand's life multiple times, enabled the Cleansing of the Source...

Pevara, Seaine, Searin, Yukiri, Dosaine - fought the Black, exposed a few. Helped Egwene keep the Tower from falling apart (hey, if that's not important, why did Mesaana do anything in her power to make it happen?). Searin helped repel the Seanchan. Pevara's helping mend relations with the Ashaman, not to mention her role in whatever's going down right now at the BT

Tarna - saved somethings from Elaida's blunderings. That's enough, in my book. And she tried doing something about the Ashaman.

Bera, Kiruna - been instrumental in leading the AS who swore to Rand. Helped saving him from the Shaido. Did good on his behalf.

Anaiya - helped Moiraine in the past. Helped Egwene in recent times.

Teslyn - well, not much beyond warning the supergirls, that's right. Oh, yeah, she saved Mat from the Gholam. And she has a good head on her shoulders, we've seen that.

Merise - in the Cleansing alone she did more for the Light than almost anyone else who wasn't there. For that matter:

Elza - killed a Forsken. The only AS ever to do so (well, Moiraine was instrumental in Lanfear's death, Nynaeve in Rahvin's).

Leane: Did so for the sole reason that it suited her plus helping ? It would have happened even without her.

 

The hunters were getting nowhere fast without Egwene.

 

Tarna: Tried to keep a reign (if you can even call that) from the crazy megalomaniac the AS themselves put on themselves.How does that make her contribution good ?

How does that change the fact the the Aes Sedai placed her on that position ? You would have a point if she worked against her but she didn't.

 

Bera and Kiruna: Led the Aes Sedai who swore? Really ? That's the one thing you can say ? Them providing some semblance of leadership for those amongst them without ? How does that actively promote the light ? More to the point , would they have been required if the other AS were able to collect themselves ? No, hence my point.

 

Anaiya : Should I be including the farmer who provided transportation for them in the list then ? Be serious.

 

Teslyn: is a good example, I admit,perhaps the only good example from your list that escaped me previously.

 

Merise: happened to be available then, she did not actively seek to do so .But you do have a point which I'm forced to concede : she did help.

 

Elza : I find it utterly ironic that you mention HER contribution in the list of the Aes Sedai who helped.Since you do so , that must mean that you are also prepared to accept the harm her actions did as a black ajah.Let's wipe that good record clean : freed a Forsaken, helped break the Dragon.

[yoniy0]

You guys did notice I wrote 'for that matter', right? I'm fully aware of Elza's association. The fact of the matter is, whoever gained the Dominion Band and sent her to free Semirhage could've killed those three AS himself. And she actually facilitated Semirhage's death, in the end. Rand, he was broken long before that incident. If anything, that final decent is what got him on the path to correcting it.

 

I could argue about all of them (for example, Logain wouldn't have stayed with Siuan if it weren't for Leane), but I can see that you won't agree. Please do me this favor, though: try to decide what it is you expect of them, what criteria they fail that the general population passes.

[Zentari]

You guys did notice I wrote 'for that matter', right? I'm fully aware of Elza's association. The fact of the matter is, whoever gained the Dominion Band and sent her to free Semirhage could've killed those three AS himself. And she actually facilitated Semirhage's death, in the end. Rand, he was broken long before that incident. If anything, that final decent is what got him on the path to correcting it.

No she did not facilitate anything ,Semi just did not count on the DO throwing her away like a used tissue once his needs were met and no, Rand was not totally broken before it.If you really want to go about it , he still clung to that accursed rule of his and had his list, not to mention not channeling true power before it or his taveren turning bad, so to speak,something which did not happen before.The whole descent might have started before but he truly hit rock bottom then.

 

As for the whole expectations thing, I could say the reverse thing to you.Your expectation of them are abysmal.Someone reacts with a shred of what an intelligent person would do and you are exalting their actions as being helpful to the light, which is true but only because the rest are utter morons, if you'll excuse the language.That's the point I'm trying to get across.

[JBGRAY23]

The White Tower has seen much better days in the past. Outside of Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Egwene, Elayne, and Moiraine, the Aes Sedai's power in the One Power are weak, almost pathetic and heaped with ignorance. Nynaeve in ToM completely exposed them with Egwene in uncomfortable agreement. Playing politics is what they only seem to do well at. In the face of the Shadow's armies, outside of their "power players", I think they fair badly. The Asha'man and Seanchan Damane are much better built for combat and battle. The Aes Sedai are just politicians way over their heads.

[Suttree]

And once again , less uselessness does not mean you are useful.It means that you are not totally useless.

 

I really would like to understand where you are coming from on this one. Could you please pick a few from that list and show us how they haven't been successfully working against the Shadow?

 

So I'm supposed to show that they haven't done anything ? How does one go about doing that exactly ? Let me reverse it , in what way do the Aes sedai in that list have really helped the light ? Sniffing at men and drinking tea ?

 

This has quickly turned into a farce. We keep pointing out facts of the things AS have done to work for the greater good and fight the shadow. You consistently return with opinion that bears no relation to what is actually happening in the story. Dismissing someone like Bera who helped save the DR from the Shaido, made the bargain with the Sea Folk, and brought the rebels to heal in Tear shows that you care nothing for facts and will stick to your bias regardless. If you are going to continue along these lines back up your pov with passages or quotes.

[Hopefire]

There are plenty of useful Aes Sedai.

 

Cadsuane, Moiraine, Verin and Nynaeve are the four best; those four kept their eye on the ball, understood that the end goal was winning the Last Battle. Those four accepted fairly quickly that Rand isn't just a crazy, ignorant, foolish and stupid peasant that needs firm direction from the White Tower if the Light has any hope of winning the Last Battle. And oddly enough, those four also achieved radically more influence over him than any other Aes Sedai.

 

Siuan and Leane have done their part. Siuan held the Little Tower together at its most difficult time. Leane I have more respect for - dragged into things late, dealt a horrible hand by fate, and made the best of it anyways.

 

Corele, Merise and the other unaligned sisters, especially those that bonded Asha'man I respect greatly. They've chosen to affiliate (which isn't the same as following) themselves with Rand and they've conquered prejudices of millennium to bond Asha'man, and they didn't just jump to one side or another in the Tower conflict. They generally seem to be independently minded, and rather deficient in the instinctive prejudices of the other Aes Sedai.

 

Sashalle Anderly gets mad props from me. She got served lemons and made lemonade with them. The other two Aes Sedai that Rand stilled at Dumai's Wells fall into the same category, though to a lesser degree.

 

Pevara and the other Black Ajah hunters get my approval. They took initiative, and actively started looking for Black Sisters among them. They were about seventy years behind Verin, but still, it was a step in the right direction.

 

Elayne falls on my list of Aes Sedai I approve of overall. For all her political training, she's not a political realist; the best examples of that to me are when Sashalle grants Elayne Cairhien on behalf of the Dragon and Elayne is irked that Rand is granting it to her, and when she holds out the threat of execution to try to make Perrin fall in line. For me, the funniest thing about that latter scene is that her mother basically tells Elayne to smarten up, before Perrin's ta'veren abilities activate and Elayne gets a bargain that is a lot worse for her than she would otherwise get. Still, her heart is in the right place, mostly.

 

The Aes Sedai that swore to Rand are a mixed bag, but some of them are admirable in their own right. Merana is my favorite of that bunch, being a realist and being effective - her work bringing the High Lords of Tear out of rebellion and into the fold is one of the most significant acts by a minor character in the series in my opinion.

 

Gabrelle and some of the other Aes Sedai bonded by the Asha'man seem to be good sorts. I vaguely remember a Red Ajah and an Asha'man laughing together at one point, but I'll be damned if I can find the chapter quickly.

 

Joline and Teslyn, especially Teslyn, are great. Teslyn strikes me as one who actually lives up to the title.

 

Egwene herself has proven useful, unifying the Tower, fending off the Seanchan strike, and drawing out and defeating Mesaana. However, she also embodies the negative traits as well.

 

 

 

 

 

The thing I find most telling about the Aes Sedai is that those Aes Sedai who have stayed neutral in the Tower conflict, and who have been exposed (usually against their will) to life outside of the Tower and put into situations where they're not in control are generally the best of the Aes Sedai. The woman who are out there in the world, getting their hands dirty, have generally been the ones that exemplify the best traits of Aes Sedai.

 

For the others...

 

The most telling thing is that roughly 20% of Aes Sedai are Black Ajah. One in five. No other group in the series has had such a high per capita number of dark friends. The attitude of the average Aes Sedai, wanting control over every situation whether they need to be in control or not, is a weakness that has poisoned the Tower and likely led to the subtle sabotage of a great deal of the good that the Tower has attempted over the centuries.

 

So, the answer is that there are a great many individual Aes Sedai that are great people on a number of levels. Unfortunately, the organization itself has been rotten for a long, long time. The purge of Black Ajah may greatly assist in reversing this trend, but the underlying attitude of the Aes Sedai is what's led so many to turn to the Black.

 

 

 

For what it's worth, my top ten list for women who bring the most credit to the title:

10. Pevara

9. Merana

8. Siuan

7. Leane

6. Sashalle

5. Teslyn

4. Cadsuane

3. Verin

2. Nynaeve

1. Moiraine

 

And how about that, three of my top ten are Red Ajah.

[Zentari]

This has quickly turned into a farce. We keep pointing out facts from the story of the things AS have done to work for the greater good and fight the shadow. You consistently return with opinion that bears no relation to what is actually happening in the story. Dismissing someone like Bera who helped save the DR from the Shaido, made the bargain with the Sea Folk, and brings the rebels to heal in Tear shows that you care nothing for facts and will stick to your bias regardless.

I'm turning it into a farce ? Or glorifying every single semi-coherent action they do as actively promoting the light and being useful aes sedai ? Also, nice example ; the freeing would have happened regardless of her, the bargain was freaking awful to put it bluntly and the last part might just be the only good part.So that makes it one out of three ? Yeah, I can see her great contribution already.

 

For the last time, I'm not saying that the AS are useless or that there weren't some of them who actually did something.I AM saying that the standards they are held are low, because we have seen how the average one is.Take their action with a slightly higher standard (say, with the actions an average person nowdays would do) and it makes the whole thing kinda rocky.Take their actions with their own self proclaimed standards ("WT the pride of the light") and it makes their whole competence seem almost non-existent.

[Suttree]

This has quickly turned into a farce. We keep pointing out facts from the story of the things AS have done to work for the greater good and fight the shadow. You consistently return with opinion that bears no relation to what is actually happening in the story. Dismissing someone like Bera who helped save the DR from the Shaido, made the bargain with the Sea Folk, and brings the rebels to heal in Tear shows that you care nothing for facts and will stick to your bias regardless.

I'm turning it into a farce ? Or glorifying every single semi-coherent action they do as actively promoting the light and being useful aes sedai ? Also, nice example ; the freeing would have happened regardless of her, the bargain was freaking awful to put it bluntly and the last part might just be the only good part.So that makes it one out of three ? Yeah, I can see her great contribution already.

 

Again please back up your opinion with facts. What about the deal with the sea folk was awful? How can you possibly disregard someone risking their life at Dumai's Wells to free the DR? How many other non-AS have done more than her to help the light? On that point show me any other light siders outside a few borderlanders period that have done more than the AS to fight the shadow? There are numerous mentions of various AS and their contributions above and beyond "semi-coherent" action in this thread. In return we have unsupported denials and hyperbole.

[Zentari]

Again please back up your opinion with facts. What about the deal with the sea folk was awful? How can you possibly disregard someone risking their life at Dumai's Wells to free the DR? How many other non-AS have done more than her to help the light? On that point show me any other light siders outside a few borderlanders period that have done more than the AS to fight the shadow? There are numerous mentions of various AS and their contributions above and beyond "semi-coherent" action. In return we have unsupported denials and hyperbole.

Everything about it really, you can look up the terms on your own, if you don't believe me.Though the majority of that is Rand's fault in that case: "Ok, now that I've greeted you, time for me to go.Talk with my advisors for the terms.Kthxbye.

 

I disregard it because them BEING there is irrelevant.They were not instrumental in ANY sense of the word.They were just added bodies.You can bring the argument about the Asha'man being instrumental , not her.

Would you consider the farmers at the fields to be instrumental at defeating the shadow or would you say that they did the only sensible thing : choose to fight when the alternative was death ? Though one can say that it has not played out yet and you never know in that case....

 

You question about how many have done more to help the light ? Talmanes,Hurin to name two of the top of my head.See , I can pull names too, even with the whole no borderlanders clause that was included for no reason at all.I can also inlude the taveren in them , since you consider the wondergirls AS.

 

Unless it's about the average AS again in which case were is the relief from the AS to the borderlands ? On the same route the one for Malkier took , no doubt .

[DemandredFO]

Example of AS being useless, when they heard of the invasion of the borderlands did they dispatch the much vaunted battleajah or even scouts. No, the borderlanders were MIA, I still think either Ishy futzed with the prophecy or Demandred did something, up to and including planting the prophecy in the first place. A Domani great captain and soldiers, some saldeans, some AM and possibly bonded AS, I don't remember and Rand to save the Saldean capital for the moment; no tower AS in evidence. Looks like the tower will fail Malkier again and Rand's channelers will need to aid Lan.

Like others have said there are plenty of individual AS that get props for being in some measure an actual servant of all.

[Durinax]

I think they are a useless organization, they grasp at the memory of what they once where, nothing more.

 

they fail the nations of the world when they are most truly needed, the pretend to have power (like supporting all sides in a contest for a crown and in the end saying 'we only supported the winners').

 

I think rand said it best when he said (paraphrased) "the best AS are those who others complained about not being conventional"

[Suttree]

You question about how many have done more to help the light ? Talmanes,Hurin to name two of the top of my head.See , I can pull names too, even with the whole no borderlanders clause that was included for no reason at all.

 

Keep pulling names because Hurin is a borderlander. We included them because they are the only other group besides AS who routinely fight the shadow. How you can dismiss Bera as just an added body when Talmanes has mostly played a comic foil to Mat is beyond me.

 

In relation to Maradon are you really going to blame the AS when the borderland rulers were totally negligent in guarding their own countries? Talk about useless. As for Egwene's reaction I really don't recall what happened in ToM. Did she get word of the battle in time and refuse to send help? I thought she heard about it in retrospect although it has been some time I could be wrong.