Rand and Egwene at the FOM

[Guest el_friar]

Just a different point of view.

The seals will all fail eventually given time. It is better to choose your battle ground and when to fight as apposed to letting the enemy choose.

Add that with the DO's affects which are seeped into the world to make it worst day by day. And just maybe you will never be ready if you wait too long.

Rand has a 1/2 formed plan/idea, Egwene has none she is reacting to Rand's "mad" idea (in her mind). So it won't be Rand's side or the Egwene's side, the pattern will determine they both "align". Maybe not 100% but for the common good.

[randsc]

I think Barid is almost certainly right. While it might be satisfying for many of us to see Egwene brought down a peg or thirty, there won't be a real confrontation. The text is really quite clear that Egwene was acting under ta'veren influence. She was doing what the Pattern required (and, as Rand's later POV makes clear, what Rand wanted).

 

The Pattern will require something different of her at the FoM, and she will act differently.

[Apple13]

The last time Rand tried to get his ta'veren-ness to seal an important Truce deal, he failed. I don't think it would be a "learning experience" for him if he tries the same thing with Egwene, when he failed with Tuon.

 

Also, don't forget, many of the monarchs of the world are leaning slightly towards Egwene at this point. To make all those important people sign a deal through pure taveren magic, is just going to create a "forced" Peace, and that'll fall apart quite easily at the first chance.

 

I think the way the Peace will come about is through people mediating between Rand and Egwene. I think Mat, Moiraine, Aviendha etc. might play an important part in that.

 

 

Egwene was not able to resist Rand's Ta'veren effect when they met in Tar Valon, after Rand left the hall Egwene felt dizzy. That is the symptom of Ta'veren affecting someone. Rand needed Egwene to resist so she will gather all the light's forces together, I don't think Egwene csn resist the Ta'veren effect at the FOM especially if Mat and Perrin sides with Rand.

 

I'm not sure about that. When Rand was in the Hall, Egwene was able to speak when none of the Sitters were able to. That might be a symptom of Rand pulling his ta'veren magic or it might be Egwene's will resisting him. Just because she felt dizzy doesn't mean she succumbed to his being ta'veren. When Tuon was (partly)under the influence, she was finding it hard to think, to find words other than those he wanted her to say. Egwene seemed to be quite clearheaded, and she even snapped at him when he tried to just walk away from her. Plus she didn't say anything that she didn't mean to say, or reveal any important things to him, like she would have if she was under his influence.

 

I do think that Egwene will probably agree with Rand in the end, but it won't be through ta'veren magic. I don't think a Peace Treaty created in that manner would hold for too long, once Egwene and the monarchs realize they've been had. It would just be Rand and Perrin "bullying" the others into seeing things their way. I think there needs to be some other support for Rand, not in the way of ta'veren magic, to get the other monarchs to listen to him, which could be where Mat and the others come in.

[Kahsm]

 

Clearly you have not read any other "Why didn't Egwene, a woman who's now responsible for not only Aes Sedai, but safeguarding the world, and maintaining the peace of nations, instantly do what Rand wanted despite the fact it would obviously sound crazy from anyone and especially someone believed to be literally -- insane!"

 

I paraphrased the title a bit. But the point stands. MANY readers find Rand infallible, or if not, that at least the other characters should all treat him as if he was. Cadsuane has the same issues. And Perrin is not the Amyrlin and a terrible comparison, he's basically been Rand's sworn man from day 1, even more than Mat. Egwene, on the other hand, believes she has the whole pattern to safeguard. And before you trash her for riding such a high horse, Siuan and Moir believed the same.

 

Isn't that Rand's job? isn't he the one fated to die to SAVE the pattern? shouldn't the one that's gonna do the fighting have some say on how he does it? I personally don't think Egwene and Rand are on equal footing here. The whole world, even the Seanchan recognize Rand as the Dragon Reborn and is needed to battle the Dark One.

 

Egwene is a leader, a great leader of the AS. She is not the leader of ALL the female channellers - not the Aiel channelers, not the windfinders. Egwene does not speak for the other half, the male channellers as well. Egwene certainly does not speak for the Seanchan, who already control half of Randland and are about to launch an all out attack on Tar Valon as well. Prior to the Dragon Reborn's reemergence, the AS were the primary power in the land. The rulers in Randland listen to them not just out of respect ( though there are plenty of respect I am sure ) but also out of fear. They maintain the peace of nation depending on where their interest lies. Remember what Siuan Sanche did to Gareth Bryne humiliating a Great Captain because his plans might be in conflict with the plans of AS. They will undermine a monarch or even invite them as guest ( kidnap ) if the rulers of a kingdom do not listen to them. Think of Mattin Stephanos and King Alsalam. Egwene speaks only for the AS, she has an influential voice because Tar Valon has been the primary political power since the breaking but that does not mean she speaks for everyone else.

 

So you're saying Siuan and Moir were wrong to think they should intervene? They should have just let the Dragon Reborn learn and do everything on his own because he can't make any mistakes or errors in judgement? But then of course without them he'd be dead 100 times over. But YOU personally dislike Egwene, so clearly her thinking along the lines of Moir or Siuan just makes her wrong. I'm not saying Egwene is right, she'll likely come around, but nothing suggests people should all blindly follow the DR with no thought to being rational.

 

And Rand's WO's obviously highly respect Egwene and would likely cuff Rand across the head if Egwene asked them to. Plus wind finders and kin have their pact with the WT, so they are "allies", so to speak.

[randsc]

 

I'm not sure about that. When Rand was in the Hall, Egwene was able to speak when none of the Sitters were able to. That might be a symptom of Rand pulling his ta'veren magic or it might be Egwene's will resisting him. Just because she felt dizzy doesn't mean she succumbed to his being ta'veren. When Tuon was (partly)under the influence, she was finding it hard to think, to find words other than those he wanted her to say. Egwene seemed to be quite clearheaded, and she even snapped at him when he tried to just walk away from her. Plus she didn't say anything that she didn't mean to say, or reveal any important things to him, like she would have if she was under his influence.

 

Egwene was clearheaded because she wasn't resisting what the Pattern required, or even what Rand wanted. The dizziness afterward has been described in the text as the physical symptom experienced by one who has been caught up in a ta'veren's needs. The text really is pretty unambiguous.

[MasterAblar]

 

Clearly you have not read any other "Why didn't Egwene, a woman who's now responsible for not only Aes Sedai, but safeguarding the world, and maintaining the peace of nations, instantly do what Rand wanted despite the fact it would obviously sound crazy from anyone and especially someone believed to be literally -- insane!"

 

I paraphrased the title a bit. But the point stands. MANY readers find Rand infallible, or if not, that at least the other characters should all treat him as if he was. Cadsuane has the same issues. And Perrin is not the Amyrlin and a terrible comparison, he's basically been Rand's sworn man from day 1, even more than Mat. Egwene, on the other hand, believes she has the whole pattern to safeguard. And before you trash her for riding such a high horse, Siuan and Moir believed the same.

 

Isn't that Rand's job? isn't he the one fated to die to SAVE the pattern? shouldn't the one that's gonna do the fighting have some say on how he does it? I personally don't think Egwene and Rand are on equal footing here. The whole world, even the Seanchan recognize Rand as the Dragon Reborn and is needed to battle the Dark One.

 

Egwene is a leader, a great leader of the AS. She is not the leader of ALL the female channellers - not the Aiel channelers, not the windfinders. Egwene does not speak for the other half, the male channellers as well. Egwene certainly does not speak for the Seanchan, who already control half of Randland and are about to launch an all out attack on Tar Valon as well. Prior to the Dragon Reborn's reemergence, the AS were the primary power in the land. The rulers in Randland listen to them not just out of respect ( though there are plenty of respect I am sure ) but also out of fear. They maintain the peace of nation depending on where their interest lies. Remember what Siuan Sanche did to Gareth Bryne humiliating a Great Captain because his plans might be in conflict with the plans of AS. They will undermine a monarch or even invite them as guest ( kidnap ) if the rulers of a kingdom do not listen to them. Think of Mattin Stephanos and King Alsalam. Egwene speaks only for the AS, she has an influential voice because Tar Valon has been the primary political power since the breaking but that does not mean she speaks for everyone else.

 

So you're saying Siuan and Moir were wrong to think they should intervene? They should have just let the Dragon Reborn learn and do everything on his own because he can't make any mistakes or errors in judgement? But then of course without them he'd be dead 100 times over. But YOU personally dislike Egwene, so clearly her thinking along the lines of Moir or Siuan just makes her wrong. I'm not saying Egwene is right, she'll likely come around, but nothing suggests people should all blindly follow the DR with no thought to being rational.

 

And Rand's WO's obviously highly respect Egwene and would likely cuff Rand across the head if Egwene asked them to. Plus wind finders and kin have their pact with the WT, so they are "allies", so to speak.

 

Egwene doesn't need to blindly oppose Rand either, especially considering she knows close to nothing about what he means to do. That's what is irritating to me, not the fact that she doesn't blindly follow Rand which, in my opinion, would be just as foolish. Even if she is under tavereen influence, it is rather strange that she never questions whether she is doing the right thing, particularly after she has spoken to Elayne, Nyneave and the WO. It should have been clear after talking to them that Rand was not only sane, but that he had changed recently, and for the better. That should have made her think back to her meeting with him and some things he said, such as the fact that he remembered LTT's life. Basically she's going into the meeting knowing almost nothing but already deciding that she will oppose Rand. It seems to me that she should take a page out of Darlin's book and wait to actually hear what he has to say before making that decision.

 

As for the Windfinders, the Bargain they made with Rand is much stronger then any tentative agreement they have with the WT, which certainly doesn't count as an alliance. And Rand is Chief of Chiefs, again much stronger than anything the WO have with the WT, though admitidly they do respect Egwene a good deal. Still no real alliance, whereas they clearly follow Rand.

[b3arz3rg3r]

 

I'm not sure about that. When Rand was in the Hall, Egwene was able to speak when none of the Sitters were able to. That might be a symptom of Rand pulling his ta'veren magic or it might be Egwene's will resisting him. Just because she felt dizzy doesn't mean she succumbed to his being ta'veren. When Tuon was (partly)under the influence, she was finding it hard to think, to find words other than those he wanted her to say. Egwene seemed to be quite clearheaded, and she even snapped at him when he tried to just walk away from her. Plus she didn't say anything that she didn't mean to say, or reveal any important things to him, like she would have if she was under his influence.

 

Egwene was clearheaded because she wasn't resisting what the Pattern required, or even what Rand wanted. The dizziness afterward has been described in the text as the physical symptom experienced by one who has been caught up in a ta'veren's needs. The text really is pretty unambiguous.

 

 

As far as I remember not once has anyone been able to truly resist the ta'veren effect and I don't think it's even possible. In my opinion the effect is determined by three factors. How strong the ta'veren is, whether the ta'veren is struggling against the will of the pattern or is submitting to it and in some way by the soul of the ta'veren. If it is tainted like Rand was before VoG the balance is skewed.

That was the case when Tuon refused Rand. Back then he was at his darkest and the influence the DO had over him is what made Tuon decide against him.

 

So if the current Rand, who has embraced the light and who is the strongest ta'veren in existance is following the will of the pattern by breaking the seals which I'm inclined to believe is true then I doubt anyone in the world who isn't directly touched by the DO can refuse him. Willpower means nothing in front of a ta'veren like Rand.

[MasterAblar]

 

I'm not sure about that. When Rand was in the Hall, Egwene was able to speak when none of the Sitters were able to. That might be a symptom of Rand pulling his ta'veren magic or it might be Egwene's will resisting him. Just because she felt dizzy doesn't mean she succumbed to his being ta'veren. When Tuon was (partly)under the influence, she was finding it hard to think, to find words other than those he wanted her to say. Egwene seemed to be quite clearheaded, and she even snapped at him when he tried to just walk away from her. Plus she didn't say anything that she didn't mean to say, or reveal any important things to him, like she would have if she was under his influence.

 

Egwene was clearheaded because she wasn't resisting what the Pattern required, or even what Rand wanted. The dizziness afterward has been described in the text as the physical symptom experienced by one who has been caught up in a ta'veren's needs. The text really is pretty unambiguous.

 

 

As far as I remember not once has anyone been able to truly resist the ta'veren effect and I don't think it's even possible. In my opinion the effect is determined by three factors. How strong the ta'veren is, whether the ta'veren is struggling against the will of the pattern or is submitting to it and in some way by the soul of the ta'veren. If it is tainted like Rand was before VoG the balance is skewed.

That was the case when Tuon refused Rand. Back then he was at his darkest and the influence the DO had over him is what made Tuon decide against him.

 

So if the current Rand, who has embraced the light and who is the strongest ta'veren in existance is following the will of the pattern by breaking the seals which I'm inclined to believe is true then I doubt anyone in the world who isn't directly touched by the DO can refuse him. Willpower means nothing in front of a ta'veren like Rand.

 

Yeah if you look back at when he met with Tuon, she was right at the edge of breaking, and then recovered when she noticed the darkness around Rand.

[Kahsm]

 

I'm not sure about that. When Rand was in the Hall, Egwene was able to speak when none of the Sitters were able to. That might be a symptom of Rand pulling his ta'veren magic or it might be Egwene's will resisting him. Just because she felt dizzy doesn't mean she succumbed to his being ta'veren. When Tuon was (partly)under the influence, she was finding it hard to think, to find words other than those he wanted her to say. Egwene seemed to be quite clearheaded, and she even snapped at him when he tried to just walk away from her. Plus she didn't say anything that she didn't mean to say, or reveal any important things to him, like she would have if she was under his influence.

 

Egwene was clearheaded because she wasn't resisting what the Pattern required, or even what Rand wanted. The dizziness afterward has been described in the text as the physical symptom experienced by one who has been caught up in a ta'veren's needs. The text really is pretty unambiguous.

 

 

As far as I remember not once has anyone been able to truly resist the ta'veren effect and I don't think it's even possible. In my opinion the effect is determined by three factors. How strong the ta'veren is, whether the ta'veren is struggling against the will of the pattern or is submitting to it and in some way by the soul of the ta'veren. If it is tainted like Rand was before VoG the balance is skewed.

That was the case when Tuon refused Rand. Back then he was at his darkest and the influence the DO had over him is what made Tuon decide against him.

 

So if the current Rand, who has embraced the light and who is the strongest ta'veren in existance is following the will of the pattern by breaking the seals which I'm inclined to believe is true then I doubt anyone in the world who isn't directly touched by the DO can refuse him. Willpower means nothing in front of a ta'veren like Rand.

 

Yeah if you look back at when he met with Tuon, she was right at the edge of breaking, and then recovered when she noticed the darkness around Rand.

 

Sanderson said it was her personal willpower and he was and is as Ta'veren as ever.

Q: After Rand has channeled the True Power, he has a dark cloud around him. When he meets with Tuon after this, she manages to resist his ta’veren pull. Is this because the True Power has reduced his ta’veren mojo?

A: The reason she manages to resist is that she has a lot of willpower. Rand is just as ta’veren as ever.

[MasterAblar]

 

I'm not sure about that. When Rand was in the Hall, Egwene was able to speak when none of the Sitters were able to. That might be a symptom of Rand pulling his ta'veren magic or it might be Egwene's will resisting him. Just because she felt dizzy doesn't mean she succumbed to his being ta'veren. When Tuon was (partly)under the influence, she was finding it hard to think, to find words other than those he wanted her to say. Egwene seemed to be quite clearheaded, and she even snapped at him when he tried to just walk away from her. Plus she didn't say anything that she didn't mean to say, or reveal any important things to him, like she would have if she was under his influence.

 

Egwene was clearheaded because she wasn't resisting what the Pattern required, or even what Rand wanted. The dizziness afterward has been described in the text as the physical symptom experienced by one who has been caught up in a ta'veren's needs. The text really is pretty unambiguous.

 

 

As far as I remember not once has anyone been able to truly resist the ta'veren effect and I don't think it's even possible. In my opinion the effect is determined by three factors. How strong the ta'veren is, whether the ta'veren is struggling against the will of the pattern or is submitting to it and in some way by the soul of the ta'veren. If it is tainted like Rand was before VoG the balance is skewed.

That was the case when Tuon refused Rand. Back then he was at his darkest and the influence the DO had over him is what made Tuon decide against him.

 

So if the current Rand, who has embraced the light and who is the strongest ta'veren in existance is following the will of the pattern by breaking the seals which I'm inclined to believe is true then I doubt anyone in the world who isn't directly touched by the DO can refuse him. Willpower means nothing in front of a ta'veren like Rand.

 

Yeah if you look back at when he met with Tuon, she was right at the edge of breaking, and then recovered when she noticed the darkness around Rand.

 

Sanderson said it was her personal willpower and he was and is as Ta'veren as ever.

Q: After Rand has channeled the True Power, he has a dark cloud around him. When he meets with Tuon after this, she manages to resist his ta’veren pull. Is this because the True Power has reduced his ta’veren mojo?

A: The reason she manages to resist is that she has a lot of willpower. Rand is just as ta’veren as ever.

 

Well of course it was her willpower. I'm not saying that the DO's influence suddenly tuned down Rand's tavereen effect. I'm saying it scared the crap out of Tuon which allowed her to to find the will within herself to resist his tavereen effect.

[USURP888]

To date only Tuon has been able to resist Rand. Egwene clearly was under the Ta'veren effect when they met in Tar Valon. The dizziness is the proof of it.

 

Egwene is planning an alliance with the windfinders and the Aiel but there was no formal pact as yet. Though I do not like Egwene, I think she is a great AS leader, but she's clearly not the leader of the whole of Randland.

 

Siuan and Moiraine's intervention pushed Rand away more than it helped, it took Moiraine realizing that she cannot manipulate Rand before he accepted her. Egwene is not surrendering to the will of the pattern ( that rand is the DR ) like what Moiraine learned to do.

[USURP888]

sorry double post.

[David Selig]

To date only Tuon has been able to resist Rand. Egwene clearly was under the Ta'veren effect when they met in Tar Valon. The dizziness is the proof of it.

Back in LoC Egwene was able to resist Rand's ta'veren effect.

 

LoC, Ch. 17

 

He leaned forward intently. “I know she’s with Aes Sedai. You told me those Aes Sedai support me, or might. Are they afraid of me? I will take oath to stay away from them, if they are. Egwene, I mean to give Elayne the Lion Throne and the Sun Throne. She has claim to both; Cairhien will accept her as quickly as Andor does. I need her, Egwene.”

 

Egwene opened her mouth—and realized that she was about to tell him all she knew about Salidar. Barely in time she clamped her teeth shut so hard her jaws ached, and opened herself to saidar. The sweet feel of life, so strong it overwhelmed everything else, seemed to help; slowly the urge to talk began to ebb.

 

He sat back with a sigh, and she stared at him wide-eyed. It was one thing to know he was the strongest ta’veren since Artur Hawkwing, but quite something else to become caught up in it herself. It was all she could do not to hug herself and shiver.

[Kahsm]

To date only Tuon has been able to resist Rand. Egwene clearly was under the Ta'veren effect when they met in Tar Valon. The dizziness is the proof of it.

 

Egwene is planning an alliance with the windfinders and the Aiel but there was no formal pact as yet. Though I do not like Egwene, I think she is a great AS leader, but she's clearly not the leader of the whole of Randland.

 

Siuan and Moiraine's intervention pushed Rand away more than it helped, it took Moiraine realizing that she cannot manipulate Rand before he accepted her. Egwene is not surrendering to the will of the pattern ( that rand is the DR ) like what Moiraine learned to do.

 

Tuon was clearly effected since she said comments on how her thoughts were slow. She just had the will to deny him that particular request. Nowhere does it state that Tuon is immune, just that she had the will to deny him that particular thing.

 

And Moiraine saved Rand's life MANY times. She did not "surrender to the will over the pattern", that is ridiculous. I guess Nynaeve is responsible for destroying the pattern because she stopped Rand from destroying the borderlander army, which must have been "the will of the pattern" because Rand wanted to do it.

 

Edit: to add to what David Selig said.

 

I'm not even convinced Egwene was influenced at the meeting at all. Because she did what she felt was right and exactly what he expected her to do. If someone's already willing to do what you want on their own accord, your influence is irrelevant. I suspect, given all the evidence we have that Egwene is extremely strongly willed (quote almost all of TGS), she probably could deny Rand something if she felt as strongly about it as Tuon did.

[randsc]

The question of how strong-willed a person is is not relevent to resisting ta'veren.

 

Surely, Verin would have to be considered strong-willed?

 

And yet, try as she might, where did she end up?

 

The Wheel weaves, and the lives of men and women are merely threads. This is a deterministic universe we're dealing with.

 

If Tuon (or Egwene, or anyone else) was able to resist, it was because the Pattern was able, at that time, to tolerate two different possible outcomes.

[randsc]

 

I'm not even convinced Egwene was influenced at the meeting at all. Because she did what she felt was right and exactly what he expected her to do. If someone's already willing to do what you want on their own accord, your influence is irrelevant. I suspect, given all the evidence we have that Egwene is extremely strongly willed (quote almost all of TGS), she probably could deny Rand something if she felt as strongly about it as Tuon did.

 

Then, what? Low blood sugar?

 

She was dizzy for a reason, or, at least, we were told about her dizziness for a reason.

[MasterAblar]

 

I'm not even convinced Egwene was influenced at the meeting at all. Because she did what she felt was right and exactly what he expected her to do. If someone's already willing to do what you want on their own accord, your influence is irrelevant. I suspect, given all the evidence we have that Egwene is extremely strongly willed (quote almost all of TGS), she probably could deny Rand something if she felt as strongly about it as Tuon did.

 

Yeah, that's basically what I thought. Egwene seems perfectly capable of acting like she did without the tavereen influence. Still there is that dizziness at the end. Personally I've always wondered if that wasn't Rand influencing her the tiniest bit to make sure she didn't try to stop him from leaving. Just the way they met eyes then. And Egwene took some time to make her decision.

Rand probably wouldn't want to force his way out unless he has to.

[Kahsm]

 

I'm not even convinced Egwene was influenced at the meeting at all. Because she did what she felt was right and exactly what he expected her to do. If someone's already willing to do what you want on their own accord, your influence is irrelevant. I suspect, given all the evidence we have that Egwene is extremely strongly willed (quote almost all of TGS), she probably could deny Rand something if she felt as strongly about it as Tuon did.

 

Then, what? Low blood sugar?

 

She was dizzy for a reason, or, at least, we were told about her dizziness for a reason.

 

She was caught in it for sure, just like Tuon was. Tuon was opposed to him and managed to will her way out of being forced into something she was adamantly against. Egwene, was already quite willing to follow Rand's intentions of opposing his breaking of the seals and amass allies to help her do it. So I don't see how relevant his Ta'veren-ness is in convincing someone to do something they're already likely to do on their own accord.

 

Now if he demanded that Egwene surrender the staff and stole to him, I'm not convinced his Ta'veren-ness would be enough to make her do that.

[MasterAblar]

 

I'm not even convinced Egwene was influenced at the meeting at all. Because she did what she felt was right and exactly what he expected her to do. If someone's already willing to do what you want on their own accord, your influence is irrelevant. I suspect, given all the evidence we have that Egwene is extremely strongly willed (quote almost all of TGS), she probably could deny Rand something if she felt as strongly about it as Tuon did.

 

Then, what? Low blood sugar?

 

She was dizzy for a reason, or, at least, we were told about her dizziness for a reason.

 

She was caught in it for sure, just like Tuon was. Tuon was opposed to him and managed to will her way out of being forced into something she was adamantly against. Egwene, was already quite willing to follow Rand's intentions of opposing his breaking of the seals and amass allies to help her do it. So I don't see how relevant his Ta'veren-ness is in convincing someone to do something they're already likely to do on their own accord.

 

Now if he demanded that Egwene surrender the staff and stole to him, I'm not convinced his Ta'veren-ness would be enough to make her do that.

 

I doubt the wheel would let him.

[anotherfingolfin]

I always read Ta'veren-ness as being a sort of stars-aligning to make stuff happen sort of thing. In addition Tuon's considerable willpower, I got the feeling that it didn't happen because Rand was consciously trying to use it, to force the Ta'veren effect, which, is just not how luck/chance- no matter how amped up- works.

[MasterAblar]

I always read Ta'veren-ness as being a sort of stars-aligning to make stuff happen sort of thing. In addition Tuon's considerable willpower, I got the feeling that it didn't happen because Rand was consciously trying to use it, to force the Ta'veren effect, which, is just not how luck/chance- no matter how amped up- works.

 

It worked for him against the Sea Folk and he was consciously using it.

[anotherfingolfin]

I always read Ta'veren-ness as being a sort of stars-aligning to make stuff happen sort of thing. In addition Tuon's considerable willpower, I got the feeling that it didn't happen because Rand was consciously trying to use it, to force the Ta'veren effect, which, is just not how luck/chance- no matter how amped up- works.

 

It worked for him against the Sea Folk and he was consciously using it.

 

Oh. Right. Could you help me out with a quote? I haven't the foggiest even as to when exactly in the text this happened. Was he trying to force it, or was he just aware that it could and was working for him the way he wanted?

[yoniy0]

Frankly, I only fault Egwene for not questioning WHY Rand said what he did the way he did. It's obvious to us that he wanted her to rally an opposition ('I'm going to release the DO' -'Why? We must discuss this' -'Just because. Don't worry, we will. Meet me in a month, I'll listen then'), but she couldn't get past her feeling that he's being bullheaded just because he enjoys it to realize his behavior's very fishy, with the world's fate at stake.

[MasterAblar]

I always read Ta'veren-ness as being a sort of stars-aligning to make stuff happen sort of thing. In addition Tuon's considerable willpower, I got the feeling that it didn't happen because Rand was consciously trying to use it, to force the Ta'veren effect, which, is just not how luck/chance- no matter how amped up- works.

 

It worked for him against the Sea Folk and he was consciously using it.

 

Oh. Right. Could you help me out with a quote? I haven't the foggiest even as to when exactly in the text this happened. Was he trying to force it, or was he just aware that it could and was working for him the way he wanted?

 

It's chapter 34 of aCoS:

"Yes but there is the matter of the Bargain." That word was plainly capitalized in Harine's tone. "The Jendai Prophecy says you will bring us to glory, and all the seas of the world will be ours. As we give to you, you must give to us. If I do not make the Bargain well, Nesta will hang me naked in the rigging by my ankles and call the First Twelve of Clan Shodein to name a new Wavemistress." a look of utter horror stole across her face as those words came out of her mouth, and her black eyes went wider and wider by the word with disbelief. Her Windfinder goggled at her, and Derahand Taval tried so hard not to, their eyes fastened to the table, that it seemed their faces might break.

And suddenly, Rand understood. Ta'veren. He had seen the effects, the sudden moments when the least likely thing happened because he was near, but he had never known what was going on before until it was finished. Easing his legs as best he could, he leaned his arms on the table. "the Atha'an Miere will serve me, Harine. That is given."

"Yes, we will serve you, but-" Harine half-reared out her chair, spilling her tea. "What are you doing to me, Aes Sedai?" she cried trembling. "This is not fair bargaining!"

 

So it's kind of a little bit of both. He became aware that it was working and then consciously used it.

[MasterAblar]

Frankly, I only fault Egwene for not questioning WHY Rand said what he did the way he did. It's obvious to us that he wanted her to rally an opposition ('I'm going to release the DO' -'Why? We must discuss this' -'Just because. Don't worry, we will. Meet me in a month, I'll listen then'), but she couldn't get past her feeling that he's being bullheaded just because he enjoys it to realize his behavior's very fishy, with the world's fate at stake.

 

Yeah, I always thought it was odd how Egwene, who out-manipulated the entire Hall numerous times, didn't once wonder why Rand was being so evasive.