The Dark One will just be sealed

[herid]

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern.

...

The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Claireducky reporting

Brandon: Everything has a thread, not just souls. Even a stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern.

 

I say those two quotes combined is all we need to say for sure that Fain/Mordeth amalgam can never affect the Creator or the Dark One. The same can be said of Rand, Moridin, Slayer, Mat, Tuon and everybody else with threads in the Pattern. Nothing & noone coming from within the Pattern can affect either of those 2 Beings.

as I said, I disagree. The quote says the DO and the Creator are outside the Pattern and are not governed by it. but the Bore is a hole in the Pattern that allows interaction both ways. that is proved inbook by LT and the companions touching the DO directly. In any case, it's quite clear that you are quite set in your opinion and I'm not going to change it so I'll leave it at that. I've made my point and you have made yours. I'll let the others decide as they will and have their say.

[WhiskyJack]

If there was no Bore, then yes,it's impossible for someone from inside the pattern to interact with DO. I think that's what RJ was alluding to.

RJ & the readers were aware of the Bore, so it doesn't change anything. The Dark One & the Creator aren't affected by the Pattern. Period.

 

 

Er..then how was Bore created in first place? If you cannot "reach" DO from inside the pattern, how do create a hole in his prison which obviously exists outside the pattern? Obviously the Bore was not created by DO itself.

[Nightstrike]

RJ specifically said otherwise. I trust in RJ. He ruled the WoT world, so I go by his words. Word by word.

 

Er..then how was Bore created in first place?

What difference does it make? The Bore does not affect the DO. The DO lives unperturbed with or without any Bore.

[WhiskyJack]

RJ specifically said otherwise. I trust in RJ. He ruled the WoT world, so I go by his words. Word by word.

 

Er..then how was Bore created in first place?

 

What difference does it make? The Bore does not affect the DO. The DO lives unperturbed with or without any Bore.

 

 

What difference does it make? The obvious one! DO's prison was built by Creator itself and this is a prison that DO cannot break on it's own! The very fact that he is about to get out means someone from outside it''s prison has helped him in one way or another. No it's not the Creator so who could it be?

[Nightstrike]

What difference does it make? The obvious one! DO's prison was built by Creator itself and this is a prison that DO cannot break on it's own! The very fact that he is about to get out means someone from outside it''s prison has helped him in one way or another. No it's not the Creator so who could it be?

I don't think it's a "prison" for the Dark One himself. It's just a barrier that keeps him from destroying the Wheel. It may be seen as a "prison" for those within the Wheel, but I don't think it perturbes the Dark One. Although he may be frustrated that he can't destroy what the Creator has made. He's evil that way.

[WhiskyJack]

And DO doesn't live a happy live. It is inside a cage. Bore is means to an end. It wants to get free and probably wants to payback the Creator. So Bore's presence is extremely importance to DO.

[The Fallen One]

Nightstrike, if nothing inside the Pattern can affect the Dark One, how did Saidin touch him to create a seal in AoL?

It didn't affect the Dark One. It affected the Bore.

 

It directly says that Saidin touching the Dark One is the reason that Saidin became tainted in the books. I believe it was from the "Lews Therin" voice in Rand's head. You can argue that it could have just been the maddness talking, but I would say that it was pretty safe to assume that most of the things that Rand's Lew Therin pesonality told him in a calm manner were at least mostly true.

It certainly was what Brandon thought that LTT was likely to think, but it does not say that it affected the dark one in any way.

 

LTT seemed to think that the hundred companions weaves directly touched the Dark One during the sealing. True, this may not have any direct affect on the Dark One it does prove that something produced by people inside the Pattern can touch something outside of the pattern, which IMO is just a short step away from being able to affect something outside the pattern.

 

I am sure that Brandon would not just insert an idea that is about something so pivotal without pulling it directly from the information left RJ.

[WhiskyJack]

What difference does it make? The obvious one! DO's prison was built by Creator itself and this is a prison that DO cannot break on it's own! The very fact that he is about to get out means someone from outside it''s prison has helped him in one way or another. No it's not the Creator so who could it be?

I don't think it's a "prison" for the Dark One himself. It's just a barrier that keeps him from destroying the Wheel. It may be seen as a "prison" for those within the Wheel, but I don't think it perturbes the Dark One. Although he may be frustrated that he can't destroy what the Creator has made. He's evil that way.

 

 

 

You do realize that not only book explicitly says that DO is inside a prison, if he were free to roam, he would taken his war directly to Creator instead of wasting his time on stupid planets? Also you are making the assumption that pattern is so powerful that while all this time DO is trying to "destroy" it, he has barely made a dent and it's mortal humans who have done more damage to pattern If DO is this pathetic, why believe he can destroy the wheel.

[WhiskyJack]

Nightstrike, if nothing inside the Pattern can affect the Dark One, how did Saidin touch him to create a seal in AoL?

It didn't affect the Dark One. It affected the Bore.

 

It directly says that Saidin touching the Dark One is the reason that Saidin became tainted in the books. I believe it was from the "Lews Therin" voice in Rand's head. You can argue that it could have just been the maddness talking, but I would say that it was pretty safe to assume that most of the things that Rand's Lew Therin pesonality told him in a calm manner were at least mostly true.

It certainly was what Brandon thought that LTT was likely to think, but it does not say that it affected the dark one in any way.

 

LTT seemed to think that the hundred companions weaves directly touched the Dark One during the sealing. True, this may not have any direct affect on the Dark One it does prove that something produced by people inside the Pattern can touch something outside of the pattern, which IMO is just a short step away from being able to affect something outside the pattern.

 

I am sure that Brandon would not just insert an idea that is about something so pivotal without pulling it directly from the information left RJ.

 

 

Seals were considered anchor points(focus point?). So patch was basically like a suspension bridge and seals acted as vertical suspenders. Now the "patch" was nothing more than weaves of Saidin(?) or hanging cables anchored around these seals/towers. Now at the moment of creation (the cables/patch), through channelers DO was able to reach Saidin itself and able to taint it but it couldn't stop the creation of patch itself and once patch was finished, the weaves were tied, cutting DO from perpetually touching the Saidin.

[Nightstrike]

You do realize that not only book explicitly says that DO is inside a prison, if he were free to roam, he would taken his war directly to Creator instead of wasting his time on stupid planets? Also you are making the assumption that pattern is so powerful that while all this time DO is trying to "destroy" it, he has barely made a dent and it's mortal humans who have done more damage to pattern If DO is this pathetic, why believe he can destroy the wheel.

Yes, I do realize that's what everybody calls it. It certainly seems a prison to all humans. I don't think the DO is particularly bothered, though.

[Eichhörnchen]

I get what you're saying, Eichhörnen and others and I know RJ mentioned their opposite and mutual-exclusive existence. What I have been mulling over for some time privately, is the phylosophical idea that evil can not be killed by evil. In the Neverending Story this idea is simplistically represented by the destruction of the Evil Queen who has no heart. She is said to be 'hollow'. All efforts to destroy her with conventional means (aka: fighting her) have failed. The only thing that succeeded in the end was for the protagonist to bring her in contact with the exact opposit of her hollowness, namely he filled her up with wishing her to have a heart.

 

Another thing that made me mull this over, is that it was established that the DO is the Creator's equal and direct opposit. And there is a difference between 'Fain' the mortal human (no matter how corrupted) and 'Mordeth' the immortal energy born from the hatred of mortal humans. As some of you have pointed out, Fain (even while being possessed by Mordeth) remains a part of the Pattern. ONLY the Creator and the DO stand outside the Pattern. Therefore I find it strange that so many people attribute powers to Mordeth that are akin or even above those of the DO and thus making Mordeth the DO's nemisis. If he were truly that much of a threat to the DO, more even than Rand, it stands to reason that the DO would focuss on Mordeth's destruction and come back to the light forces later since in this setup Mordeth is the more imminent threat. But the DO doesn't do that that we can see.

 

Meanwhile, Mordeth, being filled of this hatred towards the Shadow, is more focussedon killing Rand than the DO. Shadowspawn are no more killed in Shadar Logoth than any human walking there. They are equally chased and killed by the mist once it is allerted to their presence. That shadowspawn fear the place is no wonder, since very little in the world has an equal destructive power against them while being unable to fight back against it. The fiercest, most deadly warriors from any human culture still always fall short to the deadly force of the mist in Shadar Logoth so there is no comparison in the way of one being more freightening than the other in the minds of the shadowspawn. It's logical that this would be Shadar Logoth. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Mordeth's hatred is higher towards them than towards any human. The hatred of Mordeth was born from a hatred against the Shadow, but has since then grown in pure hatred towards everything. He even hates himself and delights in his own pain at times. It's a self-destructive force that destroys purely for the pleasure of destruction. The DO has a plan to dominate, Mordeth doesn't want to dominate. He merely wants to kill.

 

I'm not saying that Mordeth will be doing the DO's bidding, that is impossible. But a person can serve his enemy's purpose even while completely opposing that enemy. Again, this is from a phylosophical point of view. Evil is served in many ways, and one consistency in evil is that it is as destructive to the one serving it as to those opposing it. (Tinker's phylosophy). It doesn't matter 'who' is harmed, so long as the 'deed' of doing evil is done.

 

I believe (and perhaps it is wishfull thinking, I grant you fully) that this line of thinking 'sometimes to defeat evil a greater or newer evil is needed' is precisely the danger the Tinkers' phylosophy warns against. For to replace one evil with another is not serving the Light in any way. You can not defeat darkness by adding more darkness to it (or by replacing it with another darkness). The only way to defeat it is by lighting a light in to it (symbolical).

 

And that is why I'm playing with the idea that the two will merge and then be defeated by the confrontation of the 'light' (again symbolically). The light being the opposit of the essence of evil. Love versus hate, that sort of thing.

 

 

I disagree. The greatest bane to an evil force is the emergence of an even more decadent greater evil force. Two similar forces cannot allow each other to co-exist, it destroys the natural ennui as we are constantly confronted with in nature and philosophy. It's why the opposite sides of a magnet will attract each other, yet the same sides will repel each other. It is why Aridhol came to the conclusion that the only way to defeat the Shadow is to become greater, harder and fiercer than the Shadow itself, perhaps this is the age where Aridhol finally exacts it's vengeance against the Shadow for all of the latter's grievances against humanity. Albeit at a very steep price as the fate of Aridhol into Shadar Logoth and Mordeth imply.

 

Anything which results in the utter destruction of the Shadow cannot possibly do the Shadows bidding. That is the personal crusade Mordeth is pushing for, albeit the remnants of the Fain persona are also crying for the blood of Rand Al'Thor.

 

A merge is also ludicrous when considering that the two forces in question are more at odds than the Light is with the Shadow. The power of Aridhol or Mordeth is the pure manifestation of unadulterated hatred, contempt and disgust at every fiber of the Shadow. Every single mean justifies the end if it ends in the destruction of the Shadow. That is the ideology behind the people of Aridhol before they fused into a collective supernatural wave of hate.

 

The fundamental difference is that the Light is content with merely sealing away the Shadow. The very nature and character of Mordeth would allow nothing but the complete destruction of the Shadow without compromise.

[WhiskyJack]

I get what you're saying, Eichhörnen and others and I know RJ mentioned their opposite and mutual-exclusive existence. What I have been mulling over for some time privately, is the phylosophical idea that evil can not be killed by evil. In the Neverending Story this idea is simplistically represented by the destruction of the Evil Queen who has no heart. She is said to be 'hollow'. All efforts to destroy her with conventional means (aka: fighting her) have failed. The only thing that succeeded in the end was for the protagonist to bring her in contact with the exact opposit of her hollowness, namely he filled her up with wishing her to have a heart.

 

Another thing that made me mull this over, is that it was established that the DO is the Creator's equal and direct opposit. And there is a difference between 'Fain' the mortal human (no matter how corrupted) and 'Mordeth' the immortal energy born from the hatred of mortal humans. As some of you have pointed out, Fain (even while being possessed by Mordeth) remains a part of the Pattern. ONLY the Creator and the DO stand outside the Pattern. Therefore I find it strange that so many people attribute powers to Mordeth that are akin or even above those of the DO and thus making Mordeth the DO's nemisis. If he were truly that much of a threat to the DO, more even than Rand, it stands to reason that the DO would focuss on Mordeth's destruction and come back to the light forces later since in this setup Mordeth is the more imminent threat. But the DO doesn't do that that we can see.

 

Meanwhile, Mordeth, being filled of this hatred towards the Shadow, is more focussedon killing Rand than the DO. Shadowspawn are no more killed in Shadar Logoth than any human walking there. They are equally chased and killed by the mist once it is allerted to their presence. That shadowspawn fear the place is no wonder, since very little in the world has an equal destructive power against them while being unable to fight back against it. The fiercest, most deadly warriors from any human culture still always fall short to the deadly force of the mist in Shadar Logoth so there is no comparison in the way of one being more freightening than the other in the minds of the shadowspawn. It's logical that this would be Shadar Logoth. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Mordeth's hatred is higher towards them than towards any human. The hatred of Mordeth was born from a hatred against the Shadow, but has since then grown in pure hatred towards everything. He even hates himself and delights in his own pain at times. It's a self-destructive force that destroys purely for the pleasure of destruction. The DO has a plan to dominate, Mordeth doesn't want to dominate. He merely wants to kill.

 

I'm not saying that Mordeth will be doing the DO's bidding, that is impossible. But a person can serve his enemy's purpose even while completely opposing that enemy. Again, this is from a phylosophical point of view. Evil is served in many ways, and one consistency in evil is that it is as destructive to the one serving it as to those opposing it. (Tinker's phylosophy). It doesn't matter 'who' is harmed, so long as the 'deed' of doing evil is done.

 

I believe (and perhaps it is wishfull thinking, I grant you fully) that this line of thinking 'sometimes to defeat evil a greater or newer evil is needed' is precisely the danger the Tinkers' phylosophy warns against. For to replace one evil with another is not serving the Light in any way. You can not defeat darkness by adding more darkness to it (or by replacing it with another darkness). The only way to defeat it is by lighting a light in to it (symbolical).

 

And that is why I'm playing with the idea that the two will merge and then be defeated by the confrontation of the 'light' (again symbolically). The light being the opposit of the essence of evil. Love versus hate, that sort of thing.

 

 

I disagree. The greatest bane to an evil force is the emergence of an even more decadent greater evil force. Two similar forces cannot allow each other to co-exist, it destroys the natural ennui as we are constantly confronted with in nature and philosophy. It's why the opposite sides of a magnet will attract each other, yet the same sides will repel each other. It is why Aridhol came to the conclusion that the only way to defeat the Shadow is to become greater, harder and fiercer than the Shadow itself, perhaps this is the age where Aridhol finally exacts it's vengeance against the Shadow for all of the latter's grievances against humanity. Albeit at a very steep price as the fate of Aridhol into Shadar Logoth and Mordeth imply.

 

Anything which results in the utter destruction of the Shadow cannot possibly do the Shadows bidding. That is the personal crusade Mordeth is pushing for, albeit the remnants of the Fain persona are also crying for the blood of Rand Al'Thor.

 

A merge is also ludicrous when considering that the two forces in question are more at odds than the Light is with the Shadow. The power of Aridhol or Mordeth is the pure manifestation of unadulterated hatred, contempt and disgust at every fiber of the Shadow. Every single mean justifies the end if it ends in the destruction of the Shadow. That is the ideology behind the people of Aridhol before they fused into a collective supernatural wave of hate.

 

The fundamental difference is that the Light is content with merely sealing away the Shadow. The very nature and character of Mordeth would allow nothing but the complete destruction of the Shadow without compromise.

 

Are you saying that an evil from tiny city in a tiny world is superior to an entity that basically rivals Creator, a being that is capable of creating unimaginable number of universes, each universe containing trillions of stars and 100s of trillions of worlds one of which is Randland? I think you might be bit of the SCALE

[The Fallen One]

I get what you're saying, Eichhörnen and others and I know RJ mentioned their opposite and mutual-exclusive existence. What I have been mulling over for some time privately, is the phylosophical idea that evil can not be killed by evil. In the Neverending Story this idea is simplistically represented by the destruction of the Evil Queen who has no heart. She is said to be 'hollow'. All efforts to destroy her with conventional means (aka: fighting her) have failed. The only thing that succeeded in the end was for the protagonist to bring her in contact with the exact opposit of her hollowness, namely he filled her up with wishing her to have a heart.

 

Another thing that made me mull this over, is that it was established that the DO is the Creator's equal and direct opposit. And there is a difference between 'Fain' the mortal human (no matter how corrupted) and 'Mordeth' the immortal energy born from the hatred of mortal humans. As some of you have pointed out, Fain (even while being possessed by Mordeth) remains a part of the Pattern. ONLY the Creator and the DO stand outside the Pattern. Therefore I find it strange that so many people attribute powers to Mordeth that are akin or even above those of the DO and thus making Mordeth the DO's nemisis. If he were truly that much of a threat to the DO, more even than Rand, it stands to reason that the DO would focuss on Mordeth's destruction and come back to the light forces later since in this setup Mordeth is the more imminent threat. But the DO doesn't do that that we can see.

 

Meanwhile, Mordeth, being filled of this hatred towards the Shadow, is more focussedon killing Rand than the DO. Shadowspawn are no more killed in Shadar Logoth than any human walking there. They are equally chased and killed by the mist once it is allerted to their presence. That shadowspawn fear the place is no wonder, since very little in the world has an equal destructive power against them while being unable to fight back against it. The fiercest, most deadly warriors from any human culture still always fall short to the deadly force of the mist in Shadar Logoth so there is no comparison in the way of one being more freightening than the other in the minds of the shadowspawn. It's logical that this would be Shadar Logoth. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Mordeth's hatred is higher towards them than towards any human. The hatred of Mordeth was born from a hatred against the Shadow, but has since then grown in pure hatred towards everything. He even hates himself and delights in his own pain at times. It's a self-destructive force that destroys purely for the pleasure of destruction. The DO has a plan to dominate, Mordeth doesn't want to dominate. He merely wants to kill.

 

I'm not saying that Mordeth will be doing the DO's bidding, that is impossible. But a person can serve his enemy's purpose even while completely opposing that enemy. Again, this is from a phylosophical point of view. Evil is served in many ways, and one consistency in evil is that it is as destructive to the one serving it as to those opposing it. (Tinker's phylosophy). It doesn't matter 'who' is harmed, so long as the 'deed' of doing evil is done.

 

I believe (and perhaps it is wishfull thinking, I grant you fully) that this line of thinking 'sometimes to defeat evil a greater or newer evil is needed' is precisely the danger the Tinkers' phylosophy warns against. For to replace one evil with another is not serving the Light in any way. You can not defeat darkness by adding more darkness to it (or by replacing it with another darkness). The only way to defeat it is by lighting a light in to it (symbolical).

 

And that is why I'm playing with the idea that the two will merge and then be defeated by the confrontation of the 'light' (again symbolically). The light being the opposit of the essence of evil. Love versus hate, that sort of thing.

 

 

I disagree. The greatest bane to an evil force is the emergence of an even more decadent greater evil force. Two similar forces cannot allow each other to co-exist, it destroys the natural ennui as we are constantly confronted with in nature and philosophy. It's why the opposite sides of a magnet will attract each other, yet the same sides will repel each other. It is why Aridhol came to the conclusion that the only way to defeat the Shadow is to become greater, harder and fiercer than the Shadow itself, perhaps this is the age where Aridhol finally exacts it's vengeance against the Shadow for all of the latter's grievances against humanity. Albeit at a very steep price as the fate of Aridhol into Shadar Logoth and Mordeth imply.

 

Anything which results in the utter destruction of the Shadow cannot possibly do the Shadows bidding. That is the personal crusade Mordeth is pushing for, albeit the remnants of the Fain persona are also crying for the blood of Rand Al'Thor.

 

A merge is also ludicrous when considering that the two forces in question are more at odds than the Light is with the Shadow. The power of Aridhol or Mordeth is the pure manifestation of unadulterated hatred, contempt and disgust at every fiber of the Shadow. Every single mean justifies the end if it ends in the destruction of the Shadow. That is the ideology behind the people of Aridhol before they fused into a collective supernatural wave of hate.

 

The fundamental difference is that the Light is content with merely sealing away the Shadow. The very nature and character of Mordeth would allow nothing but the complete destruction of the Shadow without compromise.

 

Are you saying that an evil from tiny city in a tiny world is superior to an entity that basically rivals Creator, a being that is capable of creating unimaginable number of universes, each universes containing trillions of stars and 100s of trillions of worlds one of which is Randland? I think you might be bit of the SCALE

 

Whisky Jack, I know that was partially tongue-in-cheek, but I do not think that anyone on the thread has argued that Fain is any match for the Dark One. I think the majority of people who think Fain will replace/kill/or otherwise harm the Dark One thinks that it will be by chance not by Fain actually winning any sort of showdown against the Dark One, who is at this point obviously more powerful.

[Nightstrike]

Fain/Mordeth has absolutely nothing in common with the Dark One. I see no similarities at all. Fain is crazy, he is mortal, he has a physical body, he is part of the Pattern, he can't channel, he is affected by the Pattern, and so on.

 

Will Rand replace the Creator?

Will Moghedien become Nae'blis?

Will Mat replace the Dragon?

Will Moridin replace Mordeth?

Will Fain replace the Dark One?

...

The answers are no, no, no, no, no...

[Mystica]

I can see we're talking aside of each other, since I seem to fail to explain what I mean properly. All I am considering, is that 'evil' is evil. One devil replacing another devil doesn't eliminate 'evil' (using the word devil as a recognisable reference for the sake of clarity - I hope). Evil itself is served, whether the serving is done by one devil or the other doesn't matter.

 

But anyway.... you seem convinced of your idea on this subject, which may very well be the way things will be. But the concept of a 'bigger' evil replacing a minor evil in order to get rid of evil is (in my view) impossible.

[WhiskyJack]

But in The Chronicles of Riddick, Riddick kills Lord Marshall! So sometimes evil can only be destroyed by another kind of evil

[Nightstrike]

Fain/Mordeth has absolutely nothing in common with the Dark One. I see no similarities at all. Fain is crazy, he is mortal, he has a physical body, he is part of the Pattern, he can't channel, he is affected by the Pattern, and so on.

 

Will Rand replace the Creator?

Will Moghedien become Nae'blis?

Will Mat replace the Dragon?

Will Moridin replace Mordeth?

Will Fain replace the Dark One?

...

The answers are no, no, no, no, no...

Heh. I'll have to modify my answer somewhat here. If the Dragon is turned, then I guess some people will have to "fill in" for the Dragon soul in some ways. Although I still think that Mat will never actually become "the Dragon soul".

[Eichhörnchen]

I can see we're talking aside of each other, since I seem to fail to explain what I mean properly. All I am considering, is that 'evil' is evil. One devil replacing another devil doesn't eliminate 'evil' (using the word devil as a recognisable reference for the sake of clarity - I hope). Evil itself is served, whether the serving is done by one devil or the other doesn't matter.

 

But anyway.... you seem convinced of your idea on this subject, which may very well be the way things will be. But the concept of a 'bigger' evil replacing a minor evil in order to get rid of evil is (in my view) impossible.

 

 

Reality without evil is impossible. Something will always step up to replace the void or balance the disturbance.

[Mystica]

that's a good point too. Which brings me back to what I said earlier, which is that both the DO and the Mordeth energy 'serve' the same master (aka: evil). We are used to seeing the DO as the source of evil, the personification of it. While in truth, he may merely be a (extremely high powerful) servant of it. In like way that would make the Creator the servant of the Light (or good, if we go with evil instead of Shadow/Dark).

 

It's all a bit semantics, of course, but for me it does make for some fun (and sometimes puzzling or frustrating) musings.

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

This actually raises quite a few questions, like how the lives of others would have been affected if Fain's thread had rolled without 'unwittingly sidestepping the Pattern. What would have happened with Toram Riatin? What direction would the trip to Falme have taken without him? If his purposes weren't intended to be how they are, how would the Pattern have filled these holes and what course would it have taken to come up with the same resolution?

 

In what ways, exactly, has he sidestepped the pattern? It is obvious that Fain, as a person, peddler etc, had (and still has) a thread in the Pattern, so it is not likely he exists as an entity outside it. The whole Shadar Logoth/Mashadar/Mordeth thing has implications and outcomes that run through most of the 3rd Age, with a few of those outcomes being fairly critical to the present situation in Randland.

 

For mine, I believe that one 'sidestep' has been the integration of DO evil and SL evil. Perhaps the tricks he can do, using the two evils combined is considered to be intrinsically impossible within the guidelines of the Pattern. I don't know.

 

However, I certainly can't see him diving into the Bore and driving the dagger between the DO's shoulder blades for the big kill. And I see Moridin's comment about the stupidity of Rand's statement being ratification that the Creator/DO is a yin/yang thing and coexistence is a basic requirement. Lanfear may well have been deluded when she told Rand they could supplant the DO with the Choedan Kal. The Forsaken have been wrong before.

[Stitch]

The very premise of such a clearcut good/evil divide between creator/dark one is something I personally find rather simplistic, even childish.

 

We have Galad being held up as an example of someone who sees things in moral absolutes, yet is constantly vilified for this and his mother tells him off for it and the idea of grey tones, and even of NON-greytone colours is introduced as a lens to examine morality (that people arent just good or evil). The idea that the 'bad' people are all dark friends is routinely upheld in the book, that somehow the dark one is responsible for that...

 

'If there is evil in this world, it lurks in the hearts of man.' Edward D.Morrison - Pretty much sums it up for me.

 

As for whether the dark one will be sealed away... personally I dont think so, but nor do I think even Rand is capable of 'killing' the dark one... instead I think they will attempt to say that the dark one isnt really evil but he/she/it is actually the Creator who has somehow been tainted (probably by people's dark thoughts or whatever)

[Southpaw89]

The Dark ONe will be sealed by the help of men and women working together. It's part of the revelation scene Rand has in TGS. He wants to fix what he/Lews Therin failed in the past when he only used men to try and seal.

[Nightstrike]

However, I certainly can't see him diving into the Bore and driving the dagger between the DO's shoulder blades for the big kill. And I see Moridin's comment about the stupidity of Rand's statement being ratification that the Creator/DO is a yin/yang thing and coexistence is a basic requirement. Lanfear may well have been deluded when she told Rand they could supplant the DO with the Choedan Kal. The Forsaken have been wrong before.

How can anyone dive through the Bore? The Bore exists everywhere... How can the DO be affected by the Pattern, when RJ told us he can't? The DO does not even have shoulder blades. The DO is stronger than the Wheel, and Fain is so much less than Shadar Logoth.

[The Fallen One]

How can anyone dive through the Bore? The Bore exists everywhere... How can the DO be affected by the Pattern, when RJ told us he can't? The DO does not even have shoulder blades. The DO is stronger than the Wheel, and Fain is so much less than Shadar Logoth.

 

Just want to argue one point in your post that I believe is just wrong. How is Fain anything less than Shadar Logoth. First, Mordeth was confined to Shadar Logoth and Fain is not. Second, the mist in Shadar Logoth just killed things while the mist that Fain Controls lets him control Trollocs as well as kill them. Third, Fain may be mad, but he seems to have a lot of control of his powers while the mist in Shadar Logoth seemed to just wonder towards anything living. In conclusion, Fain is pretty much an upgraded version of Shadar Logoth's power plus a little bit of the Dark One's power.

[WhiskyJack]

How can anyone dive through the Bore? The Bore exists everywhere... How can the DO be affected by the Pattern, when RJ told us he can't? The DO does not even have shoulder blades. The DO is stronger than the Wheel, and Fain is so much less than Shadar Logoth.

 

Just want to argue one point in your post that I believe is just wrong. How is Fain anything less than Shadar Logoth. First, Mordeth was confined to Shadar Logoth and Fain is not. Second, the mist in Shadar Logoth just killed things while the mist that Fain Controls lets him control Trollocs as well as kill them. Third, Fain may be mad, but he seems to have a lot of control of his powers while the mist in Shadar Logoth seemed to just wonder towards anything living. In conclusion, Fain is pretty much an upgraded version of Shadar Logoth's power plus a little bit of the Dark One's power.

 

 

True power of Shadar Logoth comes from that Mist, not Fain. Both (Fain and Mordeth before) are just an instrument for that Mist. Their "individual" powers mean nothing.