The Dark One will just be sealed

[Thorgan]

Morning

 

Found this in theoryland interview archive:

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless. [And with any luck, that should quiet all of you 'Straight Line of Time' pests! - Raina]

 

Pretty straight forward. There is nothing that makes this age special.

Rand won't kill the Dark One or permanently imprison him or anything of the like.

The Dark One won't win either (doh).

 

Seems kinda important since there is a lot of speculation around here that is only possible if this age is special.

[Terez]

Yeah, that's been a pretty common argument for the last several years, but Rand's crazy ideas in TGS got people talking about it again, and they have various ways of arguing around it.

[maradon]

One word as to why this age is unique: Fain.

[The Fallen One]

What if the Dark One is killed in every 3rd age and replaced? The quote does not really kill the argument, because none of us knows what exactly happens at the end of the third age.

[WhiskyJack]

1)Replaced by what? What holds the power to unmake reality besides Creator?

2) If he can be killed, why even put him in a prison? Men don't need DO for evil.

[Barid Bel Medar]

bah, there will be those who will argue that the DO will be killed etc...

 

The DO is on par with the Creator, the creator cannot destroy the DO, not Rand nor Fain can do anything if the creator cannot.

 

ALl I have to say is I quote Ishamael/Moridin when Rand tells him he will kill the DO.

 

I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement.

 

Edit: for those that argue the case of Rand brining it up in tGS. First, we can hardly trust tGS Rand, he is pretty much lost in the woods. Then, ToM Rand, LTT integrated and such, isnt trying to kill the DO, he is trying to seal him away. Most likely because he realised the magnitude of the stupidity in his earlier statment.

[The Fallen One]

1)Replaced by what? What holds the power to unmake reality besides Creator?

2) If he can be killed, why even put him in a prison? Men don't need DO for evil.

 

1) Fain would be the only candidate for replacing the Dark One

2) That is a really good argument. Lol.

[WhiskyJack]

I have no way of validating this but I read this statement, around the time ToM came out, on this very forum: Amount of balefire required to kill DO will destroy creation itself. It can't be done.

 

Now I have no idea where this came from so it might be total BS but considering what DO is, it sounds plausible.

[The Fallen One]

bah, there will be those who will argue that the DO will be killed etc...

 

The DO is on par with the Creator, the creator cannot destroy the DO, not Rand nor Fain can do anything if the creator cannot.

 

ALl I have to say is I quote Ishamael/Moridin when Rand tells him he will kill the DO.

 

I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement.

 

We do not know anything about the Creator other than he created the world and started the Wheel of Time. We have no idea if he even cares about what happens to Randland in the least. We have been told that he imprisoned the Dark One at the beginning of time. So, to say the Dark One is on par with the creator is really just an assumption on our part, which is only backed up by the fact that the theme of the series seems to be that there is a balance to everything. In fact, since the Dark One is imprisoned and the creator is not, that could very easily be evidence that the DO is the lesser of the two entities.

 

Not saying that I am for or against the theory that the Dark One can be killed, just saying that there are arguments that can be made for it that do make sense. I happen to like the theory that Fain will replace the Dark One, and like to play Devil's Advocate for it, but I do not think I actually believe it.

 

As for Moridin's quote, he does not say that it cannot be done, just that it is extremely stupid. Also, consider the source.

[Nightstrike]

We do not know anything about the Creator other than he created the world and started the Wheel of Time. We have no idea if he even cares about what happens to Randland in the least. We have been told that he imprisoned the Dark One at the beginning of time. So, to say the Dark One is on par with the creator is really just an assumption on our part, which is only backed up by the fact that the theme of the series seems to be that there is a balance to everything. In fact, since the Dark One is imprisoned and the creator is not, that could very easily be evidence that the DO is the lesser of the two entities.

RJ implied that he did care.

 

Not saying that I am for or against the theory that the Dark One can be killed, just saying that there are arguments that can be made for it that do make sense. I happen to like the theory that Fain will replace the Dark One, and like to play Devil's Advocate for it, but I do not think I actually believe it.

I disagree. I see no reason at all to assume that he can be killed. Fain has a mortal body, and he is absolutely nothing like the DO - not in any sense. I see no likeness between the two of them at all.

[WhiskyJack]

Well even if DO can be killed, I doubt Fain or Rand has that kind of power. That dude is still locked up and with a small hole is unraveling the pattern itself. All over the world. Possibly all the worlds in this universe. What mortal can match that! We have seen Rand counteracting that power in his immediate surrounding (at very small scale). Now by that only you can compare their relative strength. And one knife or arrow will finish Fain (Rand should have killed that guy in Far Madding). They don't stack up against DO. Remember Demi goes to SG and DO speaks to him directly (all of it in caps). Perhaps when it is free, all it has to do is to speak and everyone's head will simply explode.

[Barid Bel Medar]

bah, there will be those who will argue that the DO will be killed etc...

 

The DO is on par with the Creator, the creator cannot destroy the DO, not Rand nor Fain can do anything if the creator cannot.

 

ALl I have to say is I quote Ishamael/Moridin when Rand tells him he will kill the DO.

 

I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement.

 

We do not know anything about the Creator other than he created the world and started the Wheel of Time. We have no idea if he even cares about what happens to Randland in the least. We have been told that he imprisoned the Dark One at the beginning of time. So, to say the Dark One is on par with the creator is really just an assumption on our part, which is only backed up by the fact that the theme of the series seems to be that there is a balance to everything. In fact, since the Dark One is imprisoned and the creator is not, that could very easily be evidence that the DO is the lesser of the two entities.

 

Not saying that I am for or against the theory that the Dark One can be killed, just saying that there are arguments that can be made for it that do make sense. I happen to like the theory that Fain will replace the Dark One, and like to play Devil's Advocate for it, but I do not think I actually believe it.

 

As for Moridin's quote, he does not say that it cannot be done, just that it is extremely stupid. Also, consider the source.

 

sorry, I should have been more clear, but you are mistaken.

 

1. Moridin doesnt say it is stupid to try, he says you dont know how stupid you sound saying you can defeat the DO. But Ill grant you the source. Anyway, I wasnt using the quote as evidence, I jsut quoted it because it reflected my own sentiments on the matter.

 

2. The Creator and the DO are counterparts.

 

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

 

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

[The Fallen One]

Well even if DO can be killed, I doubt Fain or Rand has that kind of power. That dude is still locked up and with a small hole is unraveling the pattern itself. All over the world. Possibly all the worlds in this universe. What mortal can match that! We have seen Rand counteracting that power in his immediate surrounding (at very small scale). Now by that only you can compare their relative strength. And one knife or arrow will finish Fain (Rand should have killed that guy in Far Madding). They don't stack up against DO. Remember Demi goes to SG and DO speaks to him directly (all of it in caps). Perhaps when it is free, all it has to do is to speak and everyone's head will simply explode.

 

Valid points. It would be quite the long shot if it did happen and would have to be written really well to feel right.

 

We do not have a whole lot of information on Fain at this point. It is possible that he has become a lot harder to kill than he once was.

[herid]

Morning

 

Found this in theoryland interview archive:

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless. [And with any luck, that should quiet all of you 'Straight Line of Time' pests! - Raina]

 

Pretty straight forward. There is nothing that makes this age special.

Rand won't kill the Dark One or permanently imprison him or anything of the like.

The Dark One won't win either (doh).

 

Seems kinda important since there is a lot of speculation around here that is only possible if this age is special.

This is a strong quote but RJ himself did contradict it later to a degree. he did say that Fain is unique to this age and never happened before.

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

Fain's powers seem to be growing exponentially and while it's certainly a stretch I would not completely rule out Fain killing the DO and taking his place.

If Rand (a mere mortal after all) can defeat the DO then maybe Fain can too. He doesn't think much of it himself.

 

bah, there will be those who will argue that the DO will be killed etc...

 

The DO is on par with the Creator, the creator cannot destroy the DO, not Rand nor Fain can do anything if the creator cannot.

we don't know that the Creator can not do this. we know that he will not do it which is a different thing. According to RJ the creator takes no active part in anything after creating the pattern.

 

ALl I have to say is I quote Ishamael/Moridin when Rand tells him he will kill the DO.

 

I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement.

 

I always understood that line in terms of "there can not be light without shadow". We are told that explicitly in ToM. There has to be something/someone who plays the role of the DO but it could just possibly be Fain.

As I said I don't think it very likely but I would not discout the possibility altogether.

[Nightstrike]

The Shadar Logoth concept could have existed before. It probably did. Mordeth (someone like him) probably existed before. The Dark One & the Creator aren't influenced by the Pattern. Shadar Logoth is of the Pattern.

[WhiskyJack]

Well even if DO can be killed, I doubt Fain or Rand has that kind of power. That dude is still locked up and with a small hole is unraveling the pattern itself. All over the world. Possibly all the worlds in this universe. What mortal can match that! We have seen Rand counteracting that power in his immediate surrounding (at very small scale). Now by that only you can compare their relative strength. And one knife or arrow will finish Fain (Rand should have killed that guy in Far Madding). They don't stack up against DO. Remember Demi goes to SG and DO speaks to him directly (all of it in caps). Perhaps when it is free, all it has to do is to speak and everyone's head will simply explode.

 

Valid points. It would be quite the long shot if it did happen and would have to be written really well to feel right.

 

We do not have a whole lot of information on Fain at this point. It is possible that he has become a lot harder to kill than he once was.

 

No we don't. But Fain's power is connected to Mashadar and I am guessing that's the height of Fain's power. So just put Mashadar against DO. We have two scenes where Mashadar has gotten it's ass kicked. One was Rand/Moridin balefiring it in Shadar Logoth and another was Rand alone in Cariehein. So baelfire can destroy Mashadar if you pump enough of it. Another time we see Mashadar taking on taint of DO both were equally matched. From this, we can deduce that DO still has edge. Even if Mashadar becomes a world devouring entity, Rand probably could have balefired it using Choden Kal and Mashadar cannot grow any bigger than that. Hard to see Fain achieving such greatness when he is in blight. I truly believe that Fain will die at the hand of SH since SH is a new charterer too (before or after he kills Rand is up for debate).

[Nightstrike]

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

Fain has a thread in the Pattern. Fain is affected by the Pattern, and he is part of the Pattern. The Dark One has no thread in the Pattern, and he is not affected by the Pattern. The Dark One can destroy the Wheel & the Pattern. The Dark One can destroy Fain & everything else.

 

What Fain side-stepped is the "Pattern of the Ages", not the Pattern itself. Every age is repeated, and that forms the "Pattern of the Ages". The Pattern is ever changing, and now Fain (not Shadar Logoth, or Mordeth) is one of those changes.

[WhiskyJack]

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

Fain has a thread in the Pattern. Fain is affected by the Pattern, and he is part of the Pattern. The Dark One has no thread in the Pattern, and he is not affected by the Pattern. The Dark One can destroy the Wheel & the Pattern. The Dark One can destroy Fain & everything else.

 

What Fain side-stepped is the "Pattern of the Ages", not the Pattern itself. Every age is repeated, and that forms the "Pattern of the Ages". The Pattern is ever changing, and now Fain (not Shadar Logoth, or Mordeth) is one of those changes.

 

 

How interesting. Atleast dozen people here have tried to me tell that everything is pattern's will and you cannot do anything about it.

 

 

P.S: Nicely put comrade. Fain is unique for this age but still bound to pattern.

[herid]

 

 

What Fain side-stepped is the "Pattern of the Ages", not the Pattern itself. Every age is repeated, and that forms the "Pattern of the Ages". The Pattern is ever changing, and now Fain (not Shadar Logoth, or Mordeth) is one of those changes.

That's certainly not what RJ said in that quote. and AFAIK he never had separate notions of the "Pattern of the Ages" and the Pattern. There is just one Pattern which is both.

[Nightstrike]

BWB:

The Pattern that is woven of men's lives is only one reality, part of a greater Pattern woven of each and every possible reality. But between the weave of this Great Pattern are spaces, and it is there that the ancient believed that Tel'aran'rhiod exists.

->one pattern is part of another pattern.

[WhiskyJack]

So he is living in TAR now;) What about Slayer? Is he in between too?

[Nightstrike]

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

->Fain/Mordeth amalgam existed before 2001, therefore he was part of the Pattern.

 

So he is living in TAR now;) What about Slayer? Is he in between too?

Heh. There are so many patterns.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- I think of time in this world as fixed circular, but with a drifting variation. There are slight differences in the Pattern each time through so that if you thought of the Pattern as a tapestry and held up two successive weaves, you couldn’t see any differences from a distance, only close up, but the more time turnings between tapestries, the more changes are apparent. But the basic Pattern always remains the same.

 

BWB:

For each Age there is a separate and unique Pattern, the Pattern of the Age, which forms the substance of reality for that Age.

 

BWB:

Noone inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave.

[Eichhörnchen]

1)Replaced by what? What holds the power to unmake reality besides Creator?

2) If he can be killed, why even put him in a prison? Men don't need DO for evil.

 

1) Fain would be the only candidate for replacing the Dark One

2) That is a really good argument. Lol.

 

 

Why would Fain replace the dark one? How does this even make an inkling of sense? Fain is being possessed by the spirit of a force that feels a hatred so deep for the shadow that it is the anti-thesis of the DO in this reality. Aridhol only became the way it did due to the malice of the population against the shadow and being lead by a charismatic man who bespoke on them the terrors and doom of the Shadow. In the end following the absolutist ideology that to defeat the shadow one must be harder than the shadow. The only way to combat the shadows hate is with more hate.

 

It's why the souls of Aridhol combined into a collective wave of malice known as Mashadar. Which coincidentially at the moment is moving north towards the heart of the shadow murdering countless shadowspawn along the way.

 

Hardly what one would expect of an heir to the shadow. In all honesty the Mashadar will dissolve and the souls of Aridhol will finally rest in peace once the Shadow has been defeated.

[b3arz3rg3r]

About the nature of the wheel itself. Like Nightstrike's quotes indicated just because each age repeats itself doesn't mean that each repetition is the same. There are a couple of core fixtures which occur every time. The DO gets found and his prison breached, he tries to break the pattern, the Dragon faces him which causes another Breaking but ultimately the DO gets sealed and forgotten until he is found again. Aside from those I don't think anything is set in stone.

 

I don't know why RJ thinks the Creator would set things up this way, but in my opinion the most logical explanation is that the DO is supposed to be a challenge for mankind. If WoT theology has any basis in fact I don't think the Creator couldn't have built a prison which mankind can't break through (Triple negative XD). So he must have intended for it to be possible. Now the question is what does the Creator hope to accomplish by such a challenge and perhaps Rand already gave us the answer in VoG. He does it to give each soul chances to do better in their life or lives. If that is true perhaps with each revolution the souls can evolve to a higher state, perhaps until they finally reach some sort of Nirvana, but also with each revolution the stakes get higher as the DO learns from his mistakes. Well, too bad we won't ever find out.

 

By that train of thought obviously the DO can't be killed, because it would rob the chances of mankind's ascension.

[herid]

 

 

BWB:

For each Age there is a separate and unique Pattern, the Pattern of the Age, which forms the substance of reality for that Age.

ok, that's an interesting quote. still, I don't see it changing much about Fain. As RJ said he sidestepped the Pattern. That opens all kinds of possibilities even if they are not very likely and I don't see the distinction between the Pattern of the Ages and the Pattern as being relevant.

 

 

 

BWB:

Noone inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave.

well, we know that this last one is false. Rand (who is certainly inside the Pattern) almost did just that at the end of TGS. he chose not to but he certainly had the means to destroy the Pattern completely and for good.