Gay? As in Male?

[Dbob]

So, I don't have a ton of time to post, so I didn't know about this. Is there really a gay man in TOM? We all know there are lesbians pretty much everywhere in the series, but I've never seen nary a mention of a gay guy, I could be confused of course. It's possible it just flew over my head, but then the lesbians didn't, so what's going on?

 

(Homo-paranoid disclaimer, I am not gay) But it would be cool to have an overt, unapologetic, non-stereotypical, extremely overt gay man who kicks ass - just like the gay women in this series.

 

Frankly, I've read TOM a couple times now, and had no idea that one of the guys is supposed to be gay. Am I missing something, am I wrong?

[Terez]

Brandon said that the passage which makes his sexuality clear was moved to AMOL. It's probably Androl.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Androl is a distinct possibility, but I think its more likely Algarin. Now known as Emarin, his brothers name.

 

 

Edit: cant remember if his wife died or if he had a wife at all. If so, im with Terez, it would be Androl.

 

Its got to be one of the two.

[sandoz12]

Personally I think its Taim:) That's why he has never liked Aes Sedai and why he has his 'favourites'.

[Goldstar]

Then why would he ogle at Elayne?

[sandoz12]

Then why would he ogle at Elayne?

You think gay men are incapable of admiring the female form?

[Dbob]

Well, as an avid reader of fantasy fiction, I would like to think that if this guy shows up, it won't be as an afterthought. Which frankly is pretty much guaranteed since no gay man has ever showed up until the last book.

 

Here's to groundbreaking, let's hope the fantasy genre in the future encompasses without subterfuge or apology the entire spectrum of human experience. Hell, if we, who embrace the possibilities of imagination can't do that, who can?

[b3arz3rg3r]

I honestly couldn't care less about the sexuality of some minor character and wouldn't regard it as groundbreaking in any way. I'm sure that unless it's really spelled out I'll probably read straight over it without even noticing it until I visit here and see the thread "So-and-so is gay". In my opinin fantasy is supposed to be entertainment and not a social critique.

 

If you want to read about homosexuality in fantasy try reading Mercedes Lackey and her like. Her stories are full of them.

[Terez]

I honestly couldn't care less about the sexuality of some minor character and wouldn't regard it as groundbreaking in any way. I'm sure that unless it's really spelled out I'll probably read straight over it without even noticing it until I visit here and see the thread "So-and-so is gay". In my opinin fantasy is supposed to be entertainment and not a social critique.

In my opinion, having homosexual characters in your story doesn't automatically amount to 'social critique', and furthermore, all fantasy is social critique in one way or another. I'm not sure why you would regard this as different, other than the fact that most authors pretend like male homosexuality doesn't exist. RJ didn't - he said it's normal in the WoT world.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I honestly couldn't care less about the sexuality of some minor character and wouldn't regard it as groundbreaking in any way. I'm sure that unless it's really spelled out I'll probably read straight over it without even noticing it until I visit here and see the thread "So-and-so is gay". In my opinin fantasy is supposed to be entertainment and not a social critique.

In my opinion, having homosexual characters in your story doesn't automatically amount to 'social critique', and furthermore, all fantasy is social critique in one way or another. I'm not sure why you would regard this as different, other than the fact that most authors pretend like male homosexuality doesn't exist. RJ didn't - he said it's normal in the WoT world.

 

Of course having homosexual characters doesn't amount to a social critique by itself I should have put up the quote of Dbob's post, because I was referring to his post and especially that line:

Here's to groundbreaking' date=' let's hope the fantasy genre in the future encompasses without subterfuge or apology the entire spectrum of human experience.[/quote']

 

I figure most fantasy authors make no mention of male homosexuality since for one they don't make any mention of the sexuality of most of their characters in their books, WoT is by far more extensive than most fantasy afterall, and moreover because fantasy is often set medieval settings where homosexuality had to be hidden. By the way I don't think female homosexuality is really that much more common than male homosexuality in fantasy. I think there is little on homosexuality in most books in general

[sandoz12]

I figure most fantasy authors make no mention of male homosexuality since for one they don't make any mention of the sexuality of most of their characters in their books, WoT is by far more extensive than most fantasy afterall, and moreover because fantasy is often set medieval settings where homosexuality had to be hidden. By the way I don't think female homosexuality is really that much more common than male homosexuality in fantasy. I think there is little on homosexuality in most books in general

 

Have you read any of the Greek classics? While I admit that predates medieval times, just because something has been set in the past doesn't mean that homosexuality had to be hidden or wasn't written about.

 

Heterosexuality doesn't need to be mentioned because it's just assumed. In LotR for example Tolkien didn't need to explicitly say Aragon, Faramair, Eowyn etc were heterosexual because people would just assume it. So therefore to show that homosexual people exist in a fantasy world (which RJ said they do exist in the the wot world)it must be explicitly stated or people will just assume everyone to be heterosexual.

[Kal11]

Personally I think its Taim:) That's why he has never liked Aes Sedai and why he has his 'favourites'.

 

 

It is guaranteed to not be Taim. Sanderson said it was not a character specified to be gay by RJ, that he was working it in to balance out the story more in what he felt was correcting an oversight in the lack of a gay character. He would not take that liberty with a major character like Taim that could majorly effect the way people view his part of the story. He is the type of character that would have extensive notes about him, and if his sexual proclivities were unusual I am sure it would hav ebeen illustrated in the character sketches and notes done by RJ. It may be a fairly well known or frequently seen secondary character although Androl seems to be the most popular and sensible candidate.

[sandoz12]

Personally I think its Taim:) That's why he has never liked Aes Sedai and why he has his 'favourites'.

 

 

It is guaranteed to not be Taim. Sanderson said it was not a character specified to be gay by RJ, that he was working it in to balance out the story more in what he felt was correcting an oversight in the lack of a gay character. He would not take that liberty with a major character like Taim that could majorly effect the way people view his part of the story. He is the type of character that would have extensive notes about him, and if his sexual proclivities were unusual I am sure it would hav ebeen illustrated in the character sketches and notes done by RJ. It may be a fairly well known or frequently seen secondary character although Androl seems to be the most popular and sensible candidate.

 

Yes - you are perfectly right. I was putting Taim out there humourously but I always forget how that doesn't translate well in text.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I figure most fantasy authors make no mention of male homosexuality since for one they don't make any mention of the sexuality of most of their characters in their books, WoT is by far more extensive than most fantasy afterall, and moreover because fantasy is often set medieval settings where homosexuality had to be hidden. By the way I don't think female homosexuality is really that much more common than male homosexuality in fantasy. I think there is little on homosexuality in most books in general

 

Have you read any of the Greek classics? While I admit that predates medieval times, just because something has been set in the past doesn't mean that homosexuality had to be hidden or wasn't written about.

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I was talking about how most of the fantasy books written take place in a medieval european setting. They use medieval weaponry, they often live in a feudalistic society and so on. So isn't it natural that the society and the treatment of homosexuality often mirrors how it was back then or rather how the author images they were back then. And that makes homosexuality something which is rarely talked about.

So what's that got to do with greek classics?

 

Heterosexuality doesn't need to be mentioned because it's just assumed. In LotR for example Tolkien didn't need to explicitly say Aragon, Faramair, Eowyn etc were heterosexual because people would just assume it. So therefore to show that homosexual people exist in a fantasy world (which RJ said they do exist in the the wot world)it must be explicitly stated or people will just assume everyone to be heterosexual.

 

I disagree. I just assume there are homosexuals because there are humans and with humanity while heterosexuality is the norm, there is always a homosexual minority. They just don't feature in the story or atleast their sexuality doesn't feature in the story afterall they don't run around carrying a sign which says "I'm gay" or just have to throw themselves at the next attractive person of their gender to display that they are. If there's a gay rogue/warrior/wizard/priest character of some sort what necessity is there for him or her to display it unless it's a main character? The role of him or her is to do the thieving/smiting/wizarding/preaching. Sure there can be a casual mention of it somewhere, but really in that case usually it just disappears five seconds after you read it with the other unimportant character descriptions like what kind of hairstyle this or that innkeeper has or what the colour of the dress this or that lady is wearing right now.

As for the main cast of a story it's often less than twenty people and it's really no surprise that in such a low, statistically irrelevant number there aren't any homosexuals.

 

 

Finally about LotR, that story has so little romance I didn't waste a thought on anyone's sexual orientation. Most of them were pretty asexual to me.

[Ogrelin]

Homosexuals have a stigma on them placed on them by various religions in our time, if there were no holy bibles and Korans we would have a entirely different view on homosexuality imho. Back in the ancient Rome and Greece homosexuality wasn't stigmatized to the degree we see today.

 

We have seen or heard nothing of this intolerance in Randland.

[Shalon Casbin]

I am kind of interested to see how it plays out. I've always assumed since the women had pillow friends of the same sex, so would some of the men; even if not mentioned.

 

 

I hope it's Rand's dad. He would fit the bill, never re-married, never kids of his own, a man of war and secrets. But to be more realistic, Androl is probably it...although Logain would be a fun one too :)

[cookiecrisp]

I hope it's Rand and he decides to add Taim to his harem of incredibly arrogant and unbearable people plus Min.

[Sid]

I think we can safely assume it's not Logain.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think we can safely assume it's not Logain.

 

Who knows? Perhaps he made that brown Aes Sedai he's sleeping with wear an illusion which makes her look like Galad.

[Shalon Casbin]

finally, a proper use for Illusion #approve

[Dbob]

I honestly couldn't care less about the sexuality of some minor character and wouldn't regard it as groundbreaking in any way. I'm sure that unless it's really spelled out I'll probably read straight over it without even noticing it until I visit here and see the thread "So-and-so is gay". In my opinin fantasy is supposed to be entertainment and not a social critique.

In my opinion, having homosexual characters in your story doesn't automatically amount to 'social critique', and furthermore, all fantasy is social critique in one way or another. I'm not sure why you would regard this as different, other than the fact that most authors pretend like male homosexuality doesn't exist. RJ didn't - he said it's normal in the WoT world.

 

Of course having homosexual characters doesn't amount to a social critique by itself I should have put up the quote of Dbob's post, because I was referring to his post and especially that line:

Here's to groundbreaking' date=' let's hope the fantasy genre in the future encompasses without subterfuge or apology the entire spectrum of human experience.[/quote']

 

I figure most fantasy authors make no mention of male homosexuality since for one they don't make any mention of the sexuality of most of their characters in their books, WoT is by far more extensive than most fantasy afterall, and moreover because fantasy is often set medieval settings where homosexuality had to be hidden. By the way I don't think female homosexuality is really that much more common than male homosexuality in fantasy. I think there is little on homosexuality in most books in general

 

Well, the thing is, that Jordan did make a point of putting explicitly homosexual characters in the books, they’re just all women. That in and of itself is a social critique. None of the references to lesbianism is essential to the plot. It’s not necessary to the story, so by that reasoning, why include it? He included it specifically because he was making a point.

 

Then there is the absence of including gay men. That says something also – probably that like most straight guys, we’re more comfortable thinking about female homosexuality than male. That’s just a fact, and I suspect a lot of the guys who argue that there’s no reason to see it (male homosexuality,) because we know it’s there, have part of the uncomfortable feelings we all get driving that on some level.

 

The sexuality of characters in fantasy novels is readily apparent, what fantasy authors don’t generally write about is the sexual act. Every time a mercenary ogles a barmaid, the author is making the characters sexuality readily apparent, why include that, and yet it’s pretty standard stuff. Every time a Princess is sold off in marriage, or runs off with the stable boy, the author is making her sexuality readily apparent. There a thousands of ways that we make our sexuality apparent in novels and life that have nothing to do with having sex, and that’s just the overt stuff. Parents at a PTA meeting are making their sexuality readily apparent.

 

I don’t have a problem with gay people, in fact, I firmly believe that people are people and we should all try to respect each other. So it’s kind of nice to see some representation of them. Yes we all know they are there, but some of us have to be reminded now and then because gayness is just not on the radar in my life. Frankly unless you point it out, I’m not reading any book thinking in my head that somewhere in this world are gay men. It’s not something that really occurs to me unless the author brings it to my attention – and I know I’m not alone in that.

 

What’s the point? I don’t know, maybe that I can deal with a little overt gay maleness, and I didn’t express myself clearly, the gay guy here is clearly an afterthought – I mean, he shows up way at the end under a different author. Kudos to Sanderson for writing him in, but that’s not what I meant by groundbreaking. I was thinking more of the lesbians. WOT was the first series I ever read that dealt with this issue upfront, and non-condemnatory like that. I can’t help but think there weren’t too many bestselling authors doing anything similar in the beginning.

 

I suspect that putting gay people up front in your books is a risky move that publishers aren't very fond of.

[mb]

As a caution:: There were threads about this started by the site moderators; each of those have been locked for some time now.

 

 

Like others told, the passage has been moved to Memory of Light.

[Dbob]

Really? Why?

[capuga]

Really? Why?

 

It's a polarizing topic. People on both sides were crossing the line and arguments were going around in circles. Mods were getting a ton of PMs with complaints. However, sift through the drivel and there are some interesting arguments. You should be able to find the threads a few pages back.

[Dbob]

Thanks Mark. I appreciate the heads up.