Question about Taim

[NitroS]

Hello, there are several theories over who is taim whether its demandred moridin etc with the so called aiel comment, let the lord of chaos rule black and red colours etc. When reading the Q/A with RJ he would normally answer the more direct questions with RAFO, but why was he so quick to rule out that it wasnt demandred, i also read that alot of fans perceieved that RJ found out that all the fans worked out it was demandred so he changed his plans for taim, but then he answered saying he tried to do this with fans discovering theories but its too hard, so he stopped doing it.

 

My question is is why was he so direct with shutting down the demandred theory wouldnt it have been better to RAFO it and keep the fans thinking its demandred and then suprise everyone by it being someone else? Do you think he changed it? My last question is did anyone ever ask at any Q/A if moridin was Taim (hard to be true with the soul resurrection etc)and if there was a direct answer?

 

thanks

[JKN-SW]

I think the reason he was so direct about it was that it was so obvious that taim was Demandred. Had his answer been the usual RAFO, everone would have "known" Taim = Demandred. Mostly, his RAFO answers were more about things that were discussed and open for different theories, or am I wrong?

 

No I don't think he changed it. It's not the kind of thing I would expect him to do. And he was much too "sneaky" to "reveal" Demandreds whereabouts so openly and then change when people got it. After all, he said that Asmodeans killer was obvious, even to a casual observer. If he wanted to keep things secret, it would be hidden in a much, much more devious way.

[David Selig]

I think the reason he was so direct about it was that it was so obvious that taim was Demandred. Had his answer been the usual RAFO, everone would have "known" Taim = Demandred.

After WH, everyone knew Taim can't be Demandred except the desperate supporters of the theory who didn't want to admit they had been wrong. Demandred couldn't recognise Flinn at the Cleansing - the first Asha'man he tested for the ability to channel. He also was really surprised that an old looking man can channel, which makes no sense if he was Taim, since a lot of the Asha'man are old.

 

Jordan was probably annoyed that people kept asking him about Taimandred even though he has made it clear in the books this theory is impossible, so he denied it outright.

[NitroS]

yea im not a big supporter of the theory was just wondering thanks, and judging by taim i dont think he could bear getting ordered around by rand.

[mbuehner]

After WH, everyone knew Taim can't be Demandred except the desperate supporters of the theory who didn't want to admit they had been wrong Jordan changed his mind.

 

fixed

[David Selig]

I don't think so. Taimandred never made much sense to me even using only the evidence before WH. The DO wanted to keep Rand alive since the start of LoC. Demandred is notorious for his pathological hatred of LTT and really couldn't be trusted to keep his temper in check if he had to pretend to be a subordinate of LTT's current reincarnation. Ordering him to impersonate Taim and to obey Rand's orders for the most part is too dumb even by the low standards of the Shadow forces.

[mbuehner]

I disagree- by that logic Demandred would have been unable to help himself from launching an attack on Rand at some moment of weakness regardless of proximity. Considering how many of the other Forsaken did just that (to their sorrow generally), I'd say that proves that Demandred has more self-discipline than the others, making him an ideal candidate. He was the one who passed the 'Let the lord of chaos rule' message and never seemed particularly upset about it. Demandred seems to be a patient man, as long as he gets to kill LTT in the end I doubt he'll cross the DO.

 

I think there is almost undeniable evidence that Taim was meant to be Demandred before WH... not the least of which being Demandred kneeling in the pit of doom at the very end of LOC saying 'Have I not done well' when the biggest event in the world is Dumai's Well. What else could he be talking about, sneaking into the kingship of murandy off screen? Aside from that his mannerisms and the direct parellels of serving under LTT that drove him to the shadow in the first place are tough to shrug off imo. AT BEST you could argue that Jordan was very intentionally laying a false trail, but if so why ruin the big reveal at The Cleansing? Just to mess with internet posters? If you're going to lay such an elaborate ref herring I assume you want the payoff to be important instead of off hand.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Might wanna work on your undeniable evidence part, if you're trumpeting the sole line of "Have I not done well" as your trump card.

 

That phrase doesn't suggest or confirm that he had anything to do with D.Wells, at all. Neither does it do the same for any other known event - which does not mean by virtue of whimsy that you can point to that one-liner as undeniable evidence that Demandred was meant to be Taim, because we aren't granted any omniscience towards Demandred's situation.

 

...For all we know, with that one-liner he could have meant he scored a sweet two for one deal at Denny's.

 

Besides, we know RJ had the ending to the series all fixed up & ready to go before he got down to business. We know Demandred's going to play a big role in those happenings. That being said it's more than a bit on the silly side to suggest that the author changed courses halfway through on the basis that readership "caught on" to somebody's non-alias.

 

Taim isn't Demandred. Taim wasn't meant to be Demandred, Geeeeet over it. Common now.

[capuga]

It's completely and utterly ridiculous to think that RJ changed his mind because some fans on the message boards figured out the Taim was Demandred. First, he would never allow the fans to dictate his story or such a significant plot point. Its his story and he tells it how he wants. Secondly, in the grand scheme of things not that many fans had actually "figured it out". You have to remember that the people posting on these fansites are a small, small fraction of the overall readership of the series. And even among that small fraction of fans not everyone believed this theory. So if Taim was Demandred it would have still been a surprise to the majority of the readers. Third, there have been plenty of other mysteries that fans have guessed correctly (Mesaana was Danelle, Graendal killed Asmo, Mat would lose an eye, etc...) and the story was not changed just to surprised those fans.

[mbuehner]

So i expect you have some explanation for why an entire book ended with Demandred kneeling in the pit of doom that apparently has yet to make a lick of sense. Yeah, maybe Jordan decided to end a book with Demandred wasting the Dark Ones time bragging about Dennys coupons (or pick whatever other trivial task you'd like that apparently occurred entirely off screen and has never been remotely alluded to since), and maybe i'm a Chinese jet pilot. Are there some other instances you can point to where Jordan set up a highlighted scene (such as the final paragraphs of a book) but never explained it after this much time... much less revealed it to be trivial in retrospect? There seems to be an astonishing non-interest in the taimandred haters in just what would make the Dark One laugh for the only time in the series.

[mbuehner]

First, he would never allow the fans to dictate his story or such a significant plot point.

 

We've got a paradox here. We know that in Winters Heart Jordan went out of his way TWICE to demonstrate that Demandred was not Taim, and he did it specifically to kill that theory floating around the internet (and Jordan did indeed pay a lot of attention to internet theorizing, i can provide the quotes if you insist).

 

So its hard for me to swallow the notion that Jordan would never change his books because of what theories were going around on the internet when we know he did change his books because of what theories were going around on the internet.

[capuga]

So i expect you have some explanation for why an entire book ended with Demandred kneeling in the pit of doom that apparently has yet to make a lick of sense. Yeah, maybe Jordan decided to end a book with Demandred wasting the Dark Ones time bragging about Dennys coupons (or pick whatever other trivial task you'd like that apparently occurred entirely off screen and has never been remotely alluded to since), and maybe i'm a Chinese jet pilot. Are there some other instances you can point to where Jordan set up a highlighted scene (such as the final paragraphs of a book) but never explained it after this much time... much less revealed it to be trivial in retrospect? There seems to be an astonishing non-interest in the taimandred haters in just what would make the Dark One laugh for the only time in the series.

 

He wasn't highlighting a scene, he was highlighting an entire book. Demandred's job was to sow chaos. The entire book is about various things around Randland becoming chaotic. Presumably, Demandred had a hand in a lot of that. It's his overall job of sowing chaos that he believes he has done well at. He wasn't asking for praise for Dumai's Wells specifically. That scene doesn't even read as something related to a specific event.

[capuga]

First, he would never allow the fans to dictate his story or such a significant plot point.

 

We've got a paradox here. We know that in Winters Heart Jordan went out of his way TWICE to demonstrate that Demandred was not Taim, and he did it specifically to kill that theory floating around the internet (and Jordan did indeed pay a lot of attention to internet theorizing, i can provide the quotes if you insist).

 

So its hard for me to swallow the notion that Jordan would never change his books because of what theories were going around on the internet when we know he did change his books because of what theories were going around on the internet.

 

A theory that he was surprised anyone believed and that he had no intention of them thinking. He also felt that Asmo's killer should have been easier to figure out and when the fans couldn't he said he added additional clues. Adding additional clues to support things you already have in the books to make it easier for the fans to see is a much different scenerio than altering your plot to trick a small fraction of hardcore fans and their pet theory.

[mbuehner]

It's his overall job of sowing chaos that he believes he has done well at

 

Ok. So what did he do exactly? All of the Forsaken were tasked with sewing chaos. You're theory is that the book ends with Demandred being congratulated for some unspecified chaos sewing... assumedly unrelated to the biggest bit of chaos in the book? And lets not forget it was stated that it was Demandred (and osan gar's) job to watch Rand. Or do you have some other instance of chaos that would foot the bill?

[capuga]

It's his overall job of sowing chaos that he believes he has done well at

 

Ok. So what did he do exactly? All of the Forsaken were tasked with sewing chaos. You're theory is that the book ends with Demandred being congratulated for some unspecified chaos sewing... assumedly unrelated to the biggest bit of chaos in the book? And lets not forget it was stated that it was Demandred (and osan gar's) job to watch Rand. Or do you have some other instance of chaos that would foot the bill?

 

We don't know what he did exactly. That's one of the many mysteries of Demandred. But we also don't know that he had anything to do with Dumai's Wells. Nor does that scene at SG read as if Demandred is refering to Dumai's Wells. And even if he was responsible for it, it in no way proves that Taim is Demandred. It could mean that he ordered Taim to Dumai's Wells. It could mean that he manipulated Taim into being where he wanted. Or any myriad of other explanations. It also doesn't invalidate any of the other points I previously made as to why is doesn't make any sense to think that RJ actually changed his story.

 

Yes, there is some evidence that Taim could have been Demandred. Not the overwhelming evidence that some people like to believe but I can see how certain points could be put together to believe that theory. Had it been true the adherents to the theory could have patted themselves on the back for their cleverness at seeing the clues. But the theory was wrong. RJ said it was wrong and that he never intended Taim to be Demandred. I choose not to call RJ a liar, especially when as I pointed out in my first post that there are plenty of reasons to take him at his word. So once the theory was debunked the evidence can be seen as unintentional superficial similarities or an intention red herring. I'm sorry that the theory was wrong but this Taim=Demandred stuff just needs to die already. We have RJ's word on the matter and in book confirmation. I don't know why people can't just let this go.

[David Selig]

I disagree- by that logic Demandred would have been unable to help himself from launching an attack on Rand at some moment of weakness regardless of proximity. Considering how many of the other Forsaken did just that (to their sorrow generally), I'd say that proves that Demandred has more self-discipline than the others, making him an ideal candidate. He was the one who passed the 'Let the lord of chaos rule' message and never seemed particularly upset about it. Demandred seems to be a patient man, as long as he gets to kill LTT in the end I doubt he'll cross the DO.

It's a lot easier for Demandred to control his hatred from afar than if he had been forced to be Rand's subordinate, meet with him and follow his orders on a daily basis. Placing him under Rand and expecting him to keep his pathological hatred is a huge risk.

 

I think there is almost undeniable evidence that Taim was meant to be Demandred before WH... not the least of which being Demandred kneeling in the pit of doom at the very end of LOC saying 'Have I not done well' when the biggest event in the world is Dumai's Well. What else could he be talking about, sneaking into the kingship of murandy off screen? Aside from that his mannerisms and the direct parellels of serving under LTT that drove him to the shadow in the first place are tough to shrug off imo. AT BEST you could argue that Jordan was very intentionally laying a false trail, but if so why ruin the big reveal at The Cleansing? Just to mess with internet posters? If you're going to lay such an elaborate ref herring I assume you want the payoff to be important instead of off hand.

All of Taimandred evidence is really circumstantial, hardly undeniable. He could well have had a hand at Dumai's Wells without being Taim, just by being the Forsaken in charge of overseeing him for example.

 

Besides, we know that the risky plan Demandred presented to the Forsaken in the Prologue of LoC and about which Mesaana thought "It could hand them everything" was not that he would impersonate Taim and start training channellers for Rand.

Later on we see in Graendal's PoV

LoC, Ch. 6

 

"If there were some way to discover where Demandred and Semirhage had placed themselves, it might be possible to work out what they intended to do. They had not trusted her with that.".

 

Graendal was present at the meeting in the Prologue. So it's clear that the DO had a big plan at the time which didn't include Demandred impersonating Taim.

[mbuehner]

Graendal was present at the meeting in the Prologue. So it's clear that the DO had a big plan at the time which didn't include Demandred impersonating Taim.

 

Thats the same weird reasoning as above- ie 'Because Graendal was at the meeting she would know who Demandred was impersonating, hence he couldn't have been Taim.' But we know Graendal WAS at the meeting AND she didn't know who Demandred was impersonating, Taim or otherwise.

 

We've all been over the evidence for years, the seal conveniently turning up, Bashere not able to recongnize Taim, the 'so-called Aiel' comment, the obvious mannerisms (and funny how all the current 'who is demandred' theories include the same mannerisms to rule in otherwise entirely unsuitable suspects like Charlz Guybon based on that alone. But drawing that conclusion with Taim was somehow improper), the anger at being rewarded and subordinated given his history. Either Taim was at one time Demandred, or it was an intentional red herring, or Taim (and Demandred) has a bunch of stuff about him that simply makes no sense even as affectations.

 

So do I think Jordan was lying about Taim originally being Demandred? Yes, I think Jordan was lying. It was his prerogative to protect his story, I have no problem with it.

[Kahsm]

*cough* I'll just leave this here... with an arrow pointing at Kahsm's comment #60

http://theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=121&theo=2761

[capuga]

Graendal was present at the meeting in the Prologue. So it's clear that the DO had a big plan at the time which didn't include Demandred impersonating Taim.

 

Thats the same weird reasoning as above- ie 'Because Graendal was at the meeting she would know who Demandred was impersonating, hence he couldn't have been Taim.' But we know Graendal WAS at the meeting AND she didn't know who Demandred was impersonating, Taim or otherwise.

 

We've all been over the evidence for years, the seal conveniently turning up, Bashere not able to recongnize Taim, the 'so-called Aiel' comment, the obvious mannerisms (and funny how all the current 'who is demandred' theories include the same mannerisms to rule in otherwise entirely unsuitable suspects like Charlz Guybon based on that alone. But drawing that conclusion with Taim was somehow improper), the anger at being rewarded and subordinated given his history. Either Taim was at one time Demandred, or it was an intentional red herring, or Taim (and Demandred) has a bunch of stuff about him that simply makes no sense even as affectations.

 

So do I think Jordan was lying about Taim originally being Demandred? Yes, I think Jordan was lying. It was his prerogative to protect his story, I have no problem with it.

 

Protect his story from who? The 300 or so hardcore fans that posted on fansites supporting this theory? Honestly, how many people are regular posters on the fansites and believed this theory? Probably less than 500. There are 10s of thousands of readers of this series. Why change an important plot point in your series because of what amounts to a handful of fans? And again, if they were going to change the plot anytime a group of fans guessed things then why didn't they change Mesaana as Danelle, Graendal killed Asmo, etc. Those theories had just as much support as Taim=Demandred.

 

There are hundreds of theories out there and many of them have at least as strong of evidence as this one does. But when they turn out to be wrong the supporters just go "Oh well, I guessed that one wrong" and move on. It seems to be that this is the only theory where the supporters either go A:) RJ is a liar (which is both rude and not supported by any evidence that he actually lied in any of his interviews) or B:) I was not wrong about my pet theory, I was just so clever that RJ had to actually change his plot because I'm so smart. It comes across as either rude or pompous. The theory was wrong. Let it go.

[Suttree]

Protect his story from who? The 300 or so hardcore fans that posted on fansites supporting this theory?

 

LOL good call Mark.

 

So do I think Jordan was lying about Taim originally being Demandred? Yes, I think Jordan was lying. It was his prerogative to protect his story, I have no problem with it.

 

Shhhhhh!!! Good God man don't you know they are listening. You're right, it was all one big conspiracy but you DO NOT want Team Jordan to find out you've caught on...

[David Selig]

Thats the same weird reasoning as above- ie 'Because Graendal was at the meeting she would know who Demandred was impersonating, hence he couldn't have been Taim.' But we know Graendal WAS at the meeting AND she didn't know who Demandred was impersonating, Taim or otherwise.

Who says he's impersonating anyone? My point is that the big plan (which could hand the Shadow everything according to Mesaana) Demandred announced in the Prologue of LoC was not "I will become Taim" but something else (he was using balefire on a mass scale, or overseeing his minion Taim, or whatever) and this was planned by Jordan, not changed after the fans came up with Taimandred. This gives an explanation for the "Have I not done well, Great Lord" scene in the LoC epilogue which doesn't require Taimandred.

 

And as Mark Grayson said, most fans guessed right the identity of Mesaana, Moridin and Cyndane (back when those were debatable) and the Asmodean killer ended up being the most popular suspect too. If Jordan cared much about people guessing right, he'd have changed some of those too.

[Guest Czechs In The M'Hael]

I have been convinced for a while that both False Dragons were very important to the way the ending plays out, I have a very open mind with regard to Taim. He does have some very fishy Forsaken references, however as of ToM I think he might literally be a puppet for Moridin, like Graendal used a bird as a puppet with the True Power.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i half remember an RJ quote where he says taim, don't pronounce it tame, that guy was never tame. . . and other things that point to taim himself never being a good guy.

[Guest Czechs In The M'Hael]

Yeah, I just wonder if Taim basically signed up for the Dark and after Moridin briefs him Taim be like "This is fun, being a puppet. These Ashaman scared of me and I dont even have to do all the scaring" kinda thing. Like he gets to reap some of Moridins rewards without doing the hard work, although knowing that he is under control, but just loving every second of it.

 

Or something.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i'd see him as a willing participant in the evil he perpetrates. but i dunno, there could always be a puppet-hole.