How was it that Rand had so much power in VoG?

[WhiskyJack]

 

Egwene read his face? oh come on! Women don't know jack about men channeling, but she can read Rand's strength? Yes his face was cocky, he doesn't have to know he can break it, just act like it. How would Rand even know he could break it? Even LTT couldn't break it as he said in Rand's mind. But yes yes, you say this PARTICULAR incarnation of Rand's soul is somehow greater than the infinite various other incarnations from past turnings of the wheel. But here's a quote about judging strength:

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure Egwene's feeling was not at all related to Rand's channeling strength. Remember, he was shielded by 2 circle not one.

 

Her actual quote: "There's something about him. I...I had the sense...."

 

She didn't say how "strong" he had become. She wasn't not talking about his channeling ability.

[ironisles]

This is all fiction, people do realize that don't they? I have a feeling that..

 

This thread has ceased to make sense long time ago. Now we are discussing special Saidin and Egwene's feeling.

 

Over on the TrekBBS argue still over TOS, and it's been out for about 45 years now. Not much difference here I suppose heh.

[Entreri]

 

Egwene read his face? oh come on! Women don't know jack about men channeling, but she can read Rand's strength? Yes his face was cocky, he doesn't have to know he can break it, just act like it. How would Rand even know he could break it? Even LTT couldn't break it as he said in Rand's mind. But yes yes, you say this PARTICULAR incarnation of Rand's soul is somehow greater than the infinite various other incarnations from past turnings of the wheel. But here's a quote about judging strength:

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure Egwene's feeling was not at all related to Rand's channeling strength. Remember, he was shielded by 2 circle not one.

 

Her actual quote: "There's something about him. I...I had the sense...."

 

She didn't say how "strong" he had become. She wasn't not talking about his channeling ability.

 

Exactly, it is plainly evident to most people.

 

Women are far better at reading expressions than men. Similar situation occured when Rand Cadusane was sure that Rand could stop her heart without using the OP, by bending the Pattern.

 

It is true that this may not necessarily require greater strength, but after the peformance at Maradon, his strength may have increased beyond what LTT was capable of.

 

What this person does no realize is the DR is the Creator's Champion, not another mere human.

 

*Yawns*

[Kahsm]

 

Egwene read his face? oh come on! Women don't know jack about men channeling, but she can read Rand's strength? Yes his face was cocky, he doesn't have to know he can break it, just act like it. How would Rand even know he could break it? Even LTT couldn't break it as he said in Rand's mind. But yes yes, you say this PARTICULAR incarnation of Rand's soul is somehow greater than the infinite various other incarnations from past turnings of the wheel. But here's a quote about judging strength:

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure Egwene's feeling was not at all related to Rand's channeling strength. Remember, he was shielded by 2 circle not one.

 

Her actual quote: "There's something about him. I...I had the sense...."

 

She didn't say how "strong" he had become. She wasn't not talking about his channeling ability.

 

Exactly, it is plainly evident to most people.

 

Women are far better at reading expressions than men. Similar situation occured when Rand Cadusane was sure that Rand could stop her heart without using the OP, by bending the Pattern.

 

It is true that this may not necessarily require greater strength, but after the peformance at Maradon, his strength may have increased beyond what LTT was capable of.

 

What this person does no realize is the DR is the Creator's Champion, not another mere human.

 

*Yawns*

First, WhiskyJack did not support you, he just clarified that her statement didn't mention strength. But of course to break a shield you need a certain strength, so she "sensed" he was strong enough (you claim). She didn't have to put a number to it. And of course I say that she has no way of doing that. What she "sensed" was Rand being so cocky and unconcerned that he was where he was, shielded twice, and it didn't bother him. He was simply certain no one would hurt him, not that they couldn't. And that poise caused Egwene to think if she tried he could do something about it. It's like the bully who doesn't know how to fight. He just acts tough and no one takes him on because they assume he could back up his attitude.

 

And oh my god you actually believe Rand COULD stop a heart by will alone?! He didn't even SAY he could do it, he asked her if she THOUGHT he could, and she just didn't call his bluff *facepalm* I think the quote is something like, "do you not believe I could will you heart to stop and the pattern would oblige me?"

 

Clearly I will get nowhere with you if you even believe things that aren't even stated in any way, shape, or form. Next you'll be saying that Rand has infinite channeling ability and could channel forever.

[Entreri]

 

Egwene read his face? oh come on! Women don't know jack about men channeling, but she can read Rand's strength? Yes his face was cocky, he doesn't have to know he can break it, just act like it. How would Rand even know he could break it? Even LTT couldn't break it as he said in Rand's mind. But yes yes, you say this PARTICULAR incarnation of Rand's soul is somehow greater than the infinite various other incarnations from past turnings of the wheel. But here's a quote about judging strength:

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure Egwene's feeling was not at all related to Rand's channeling strength. Remember, he was shielded by 2 circle not one.

 

Her actual quote: "There's something about him. I...I had the sense...."

 

She didn't say how "strong" he had become. She wasn't not talking about his channeling ability.

 

Exactly, it is plainly evident to most people.

 

Women are far better at reading expressions than men. Similar situation occured when Rand Cadusane was sure that Rand could stop her heart without using the OP, by bending the Pattern.

 

It is true that this may not necessarily require greater strength, but after the peformance at Maradon, his strength may have increased beyond what LTT was capable of.

 

What this person does no realize is the DR is the Creator's Champion, not another mere human.

 

*Yawns*

First, WhiskyJack did not support you, he just clarified that her statement didn't mention strength. But of course to break a shield you need a certain strength, so she "sensed" he was strong enough (you claim). She didn't have to put a number to it. And of course I say that she has no way of doing that. What she "sensed" was Rand being so cocky and unconcerned that he was where he was, shielded twice, and it didn't bother him. He was simply certain no one would hurt him, not that they couldn't. And that poise caused Egwene to think if she tried he could do something about it. It's like the bully who doesn't know how to fight. He just acts tough and no one takes him on because they assume he could back up his attitude.

 

And oh my god you actually believe Rand COULD stop a heart by will alone?! He didn't even SAY he could do it, he asked her if she THOUGHT he could, and she just didn't call his bluff *facepalm* I think the quote is something like, "do you not believe I could will you heart to stop and the pattern would oblige me?"

 

Clearly I will get nowhere with you if you even believe things that aren't even stated in any way, shape, or form. Next you'll be saying that Rand has infinite channeling ability and could channel forever.

 

I have provided evidence, you have provided what? Exactly. So we are done.

 

Me? Cadsuane, the most experienced AS and probably the most capable in 3000 years knew it to be so.

Hint, DR affecting the apple trees (life) when he turned to Light side of the Force, compare that to when went Vader.

 

I suggest you RAFO once book 14 comes around or ask Sanderson. He spells it out in book 13, but you may not be comprehending.

[XXX]

 

First, WhiskyJack did not support you, he just clarified that her statement didn't mention strength. But of course to break a shield you need a certain strength, so she "sensed" he was strong enough (you claim). She didn't have to put a number to it. And of course I say that she has no way of doing that. What she "sensed" was Rand being so cocky and unconcerned that he was where he was, shielded twice, and it didn't bother him. He was simply certain no one would hurt him, not that they couldn't. And that poise caused Egwene to think if she tried he could do something about it. It's like the bully who doesn't know how to fight. He just acts tough and no one takes him on because they assume he could back up his attitude.

 

And oh my god you actually believe Rand COULD stop a heart by will alone?! He didn't even SAY he could do it, he asked her if she THOUGHT he could, and she just didn't call his bluff *facepalm* I think the quote is something like, "do you not believe I could will you heart to stop and the pattern would oblige me?"

 

Clearly I will get nowhere with you if you even believe things that aren't even stated in any way, shape, or form. Next you'll be saying that Rand has infinite channeling ability and could channel forever.

 

 

Wrong..it is like the bully who in normal circumstances can destroy you so you are extra careful as you do not know what else he can do except for the fact that he is much stronger.

 

The Cadusone scene was kickass...it did not matter if she believed that Rand could or could not stop her heart by will. She knew that he could and would kill her easily. It is a small step from that to how he was going to do it. I think that was scene Cads finally realized the power Rand actually had.

[Entreri]

 

First, WhiskyJack did not support you, he just clarified that her statement didn't mention strength. But of course to break a shield you need a certain strength, so she "sensed" he was strong enough (you claim). She didn't have to put a number to it. And of course I say that she has no way of doing that. What she "sensed" was Rand being so cocky and unconcerned that he was where he was, shielded twice, and it didn't bother him. He was simply certain no one would hurt him, not that they couldn't. And that poise caused Egwene to think if she tried he could do something about it. It's like the bully who doesn't know how to fight. He just acts tough and no one takes him on because they assume he could back up his attitude.

 

And oh my god you actually believe Rand COULD stop a heart by will alone?! He didn't even SAY he could do it, he asked her if she THOUGHT he could, and she just didn't call his bluff *facepalm* I think the quote is something like, "do you not believe I could will you heart to stop and the pattern would oblige me?"

 

Clearly I will get nowhere with you if you even believe things that aren't even stated in any way, shape, or form. Next you'll be saying that Rand has infinite channeling ability and could channel forever.

 

 

Wrong..it is like the bully who in normal circumstances can destroy you so you are extra careful as you do not know what else he can do except for the fact that he is much stronger.

 

The Cadusone scene was kickass...it did not matter if she believed that Rand could or could not stop her heart by will. She knew that he could and would kill her easily. It is a small step from that to how he was going to do it. I think that was scene Cads finally realized the power Rand actually had.

 

 

Cadusane: "Against all logic, she looked into his eyes and knew that if she didn't leave, she would die".

 

With Rand's dark aura, he was causing harmful events all around him (Cadsuane discussion with a contact goes into detail). Think of it as the opposite of when he went to the Light side of Force.

 

Some people just can't admit when they are wrong.

[WhiskyJack]

 

Egwene read his face? oh come on! Women don't know jack about men channeling, but she can read Rand's strength? Yes his face was cocky, he doesn't have to know he can break it, just act like it. How would Rand even know he could break it? Even LTT couldn't break it as he said in Rand's mind. But yes yes, you say this PARTICULAR incarnation of Rand's soul is somehow greater than the infinite various other incarnations from past turnings of the wheel. But here's a quote about judging strength:

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure Egwene's feeling was not at all related to Rand's channeling strength. Remember, he was shielded by 2 circle not one.

 

Her actual quote: "There's something about him. I...I had the sense...."

 

She didn't say how "strong" he had become. She wasn't not talking about his channeling ability.

 

Exactly, it is plainly evident to most people.

 

Women are far better at reading expressions than men. Similar situation occured when Rand Cadusane was sure that Rand could stop her heart without using the OP, by bending the Pattern.

 

It is true that this may not necessarily require greater strength, but after the peformance at Maradon, his strength may have increased beyond what LTT was capable of.

 

What this person does no realize is the DR is the Creator's Champion, not another mere human.

 

*Yawns*

 

 

I want to add that circle of 13 Aes Sedai thing applies only to WEAKEST Aes Sedai. It's a sure way to shield any channeler. But 3 forsaken strength female channeler could have shielded LTT (it's in the books somewhere). So 13 Nynaeve in link is not same as 13 weakest Aes Sedai in link. 13 Nynaeve is overkill times 4.

 

the actual conversation:

 

The Sitters pulled themselves to their feet, shaken. Silviana leaned down. “You’re right, Mother. He can’t be allowed to break the seals. But what are we to do? If you won’t hold him captive…” “I doubt we could have held him,” Egwene said. “There’s something about him. I…I had the sense he could have broken that shield without a struggle.”

 

IS she talking about "one circle"? Is that the assumption? He was shielded twice. And she could have always asked for "reinforcement" if her sole aim was to contain him. She could have called for all women of WT. Remember the impact Rand had on all Aes Sedai except Eqwene. I think they would have simply dropped the shield if he had asked. Afterall, breaking a shield goes beyond pure strength. Putting a shield is an art and so is breaking. Asmodean could not break shield from Lanfear even after she had left it tied. Nynaeve was unable to break one cast by a Kin (weak compared to Nynaeve). If Rand truly has enough strength to break an active shield of even 1 circle without a "struggle", I truly fill cheated in Maradon. If LTT cannot break one weakest possible 13 in a circle shield and Rand can break 2 (NOT the weakest Aes Sedai I bet, Rand should atleast have 10 time the strength LTT. Atleast. And with that he should have been able to melt Blight. I feel cheated.

 

I am also assuming that Rand was not holding the True source when all this was going down. You don't even need a circle to hold down a man when he is not channeling. Rand couldn't break shield held by 6 individual women when he was cut off from TS in tLoTC. That would make it even more difficult for "new Rand" to break a active shield held by 13 women, twice (or even one) Is he really like 10 times stronger than LTT now? 20?

 

Sorry for the rant. My point is that it would require way too much power to knock down even 26 women when you are cut of from TS and Rand didn't live up to that kind of strength in Maradon.Yes, I went there;) Remember in AoL, the insane male Aes Sedai were able to kill 10s of thousands and raze cities and these were not DR and they did it laughing.

[Entreri]

 

Egwene read his face? oh come on! Women don't know jack about men channeling, but she can read Rand's strength? Yes his face was cocky, he doesn't have to know he can break it, just act like it. How would Rand even know he could break it? Even LTT couldn't break it as he said in Rand's mind. But yes yes, you say this PARTICULAR incarnation of Rand's soul is somehow greater than the infinite various other incarnations from past turnings of the wheel. But here's a quote about judging strength:

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure Egwene's feeling was not at all related to Rand's channeling strength. Remember, he was shielded by 2 circle not one.

 

Her actual quote: "There's something about him. I...I had the sense...."

 

She didn't say how "strong" he had become. She wasn't not talking about his channeling ability.

 

Exactly, it is plainly evident to most people.

 

Women are far better at reading expressions than men. Similar situation occured when Rand Cadusane was sure that Rand could stop her heart without using the OP, by bending the Pattern.

 

It is true that this may not necessarily require greater strength, but after the peformance at Maradon, his strength may have increased beyond what LTT was capable of.

 

What this person does no realize is the DR is the Creator's Champion, not another mere human.

 

*Yawns*

 

 

Women cannot know channeling strength of men. Eqwene had no way of knowing what Rand can/cannot do based purely on strength. You missed my point.

 

 

Egwene know's how strong Rand was and his capabilities as a noob channeler (Egwene and Elayne were shielded at once, book 4), she was amazed at his Power, the ability to split weaves that many ways.

 

Egwene senses are heightened compared to other women, being a Dreamwalker, I certainly would not have dismissed her perception that he could break through the shield (neither did her Keeper). Add that to Rand's expression...and his other accomplishements and abilties in book 13. The DR of book 13 has moved beyond the capabilities of a mere mortal and likely beyond his capabilities in AoL.

 

Logain, Aes Sedai in Salidar: "if 5 held his shield (Logain's) he may have broken through".

 

Moghidien: "Men are stronger"

Asmodean...Rahvin's comment about overwhelming Lanfear and Grandael...etc

 

For a particular man, sure. But we are talking about Rand here.

 

The Chosen are well aware of the capabilities of the opposite sex.

[WhiskyJack]

One more point I remember, fight in Maradon lasted for hours. You can hold Choden Kal level OP in your body but for how long? Is endurance related to strength in channeling? Rand just didn't channel enormous amount of OP and killed all shadownspawn in one hit (something he did against Seanchan using Callandor) . Now that would be extraordinary. He channeled way way less OP and did it for hrs. He beat them by endurance, not by raw strength. His raw strength would have been meaningless if he had lasted 10 minutes. He would have lost. Now you are free to make any assumptions from this.

[WhiskyJack]

 

Egwene read his face? oh come on! Women don't know jack about men channeling, but she can read Rand's strength? Yes his face was cocky, he doesn't have to know he can break it, just act like it. How would Rand even know he could break it? Even LTT couldn't break it as he said in Rand's mind. But yes yes, you say this PARTICULAR incarnation of Rand's soul is somehow greater than the infinite various other incarnations from past turnings of the wheel. But here's a quote about judging strength:

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure Egwene's feeling was not at all related to Rand's channeling strength. Remember, he was shielded by 2 circle not one.

 

Her actual quote: "There's something about him. I...I had the sense...."

 

She didn't say how "strong" he had become. She wasn't not talking about his channeling ability.

 

Exactly, it is plainly evident to most people.

 

Women are far better at reading expressions than men. Similar situation occured when Rand Cadusane was sure that Rand could stop her heart without using the OP, by bending the Pattern.

 

It is true that this may not necessarily require greater strength, but after the peformance at Maradon, his strength may have increased beyond what LTT was capable of.

 

What this person does no realize is the DR is the Creator's Champion, not another mere human.

 

*Yawns*

 

 

Women cannot know channeling strength of men. Eqwene had no way of knowing what Rand can/cannot do based purely on strength. You missed my point.

 

 

Egwene know's how strong Rand was and his capabilities as a noob channeler (Egwene and Elayne were shielded at once, book 4), she was amazed at his Power, the ability to split weaves that many ways.

 

Egwene senses are heightened compared to other women, being a Dreamwalker, I certainly would not have dismissed her perception that he could break through the shield (neither did her Keeper). Add that to Rand's expression...and his other accomplishements and abilties in book 13. The DR of book 13 has moved beyond the capabilities of a mere mortal and likely beyond his capabilities in AoL.

 

Logain, Aes Sedai in Salidar: "if 5 held his shield (Logain's) he may have broken through".

 

Moghidien: "Men are stronger"

Asmodean...Rahvin's comment about overwhelming Lanfear and Grandael...etc

 

For a particular man, sure. But we are talking about Rand here.

 

The Chosen are well aware of the capabilities of the opposite sex.

 

Er.. what?Power of a noob channeler? Rand was able to channel more than Aginor as a noob channeler! Being noob simply means you don't know what to do with all that power. It doesn't mean that you actually have the strength of a baby and you will eventually end up being a linebacker! Eqwene also CANNOT measure the strength of shield held by a circle. It doesn't work like that. Powers don't add up. And some simply are better at one thing and bad at others. Why isn't Rand going around healing everyone? This has nothing to do with being "noob". Rand was able to block a gateway while being a noob and yet couldn't break 6 soft point shield. You are strong in something and you are weak at something. This is not body building where if you exercise enough, you will look like Arnold!

 

 

Eqwene has "heightened" sense to sense strength of male channelers because she is a dreamwalker? I am speechless here.

 

Logain's scence actually goes against you!!! Rand was absolutely helpless against 6 soft shield (not a circle) while Logain showed better aptitude at breaking, as the scene implies. This only proves that Raw power doesn't go that far in breaking shield.

 

Hold on, I don't remember it but could you show me quote where it says that Rahvin could have taken down Lanfear? And this makes no sense. Circle of 13 doesn't work like that! Thats the lesson Asmodean was trying to teach Rand. You don't add the power of individual Aes Sedai. Otherwise they would always lose against Rand. And yeh, we are talking about Rand. I would have hoped that this GOD Rand would simply raise his hand and poof, half million bad guys are dead. Didn't happen. He channeled for hrs!

 

And where do you get things like chosen are well aware of strength of other sex? There was this scene where Graendel muses that Sermihage might be strongest of the pack (Semirhage/Demandred/Messana). How come?

 

P.S: Sorry if I come off as a dick. You could be totally right about.. things. I just cannot believe it though. It's like we are reading two different series

[Kahsm]

 

First, WhiskyJack did not support you, he just clarified that her statement didn't mention strength. But of course to break a shield you need a certain strength, so she "sensed" he was strong enough (you claim). She didn't have to put a number to it. And of course I say that she has no way of doing that. What she "sensed" was Rand being so cocky and unconcerned that he was where he was, shielded twice, and it didn't bother him. He was simply certain no one would hurt him, not that they couldn't. And that poise caused Egwene to think if she tried he could do something about it. It's like the bully who doesn't know how to fight. He just acts tough and no one takes him on because they assume he could back up his attitude.

 

And oh my god you actually believe Rand COULD stop a heart by will alone?! He didn't even SAY he could do it, he asked her if she THOUGHT he could, and she just didn't call his bluff *facepalm* I think the quote is something like, "do you not believe I could will you heart to stop and the pattern would oblige me?"

 

Clearly I will get nowhere with you if you even believe things that aren't even stated in any way, shape, or form. Next you'll be saying that Rand has infinite channeling ability and could channel forever.

 

 

Wrong..it is like the bully who in normal circumstances can destroy you so you are extra careful as you do not know what else he can do except for the fact that he is much stronger.

 

The Cadusone scene was kickass...it did not matter if she believed that Rand could or could not stop her heart by will. She knew that he could and would kill her easily. It is a small step from that to how he was going to do it. I think that was scene Cads finally realized the power Rand actually had.

 

 

Cadusane: "Against all logic, she looked into his eyes and knew that if she didn't leave, she would die".

 

With Rand's dark aura, he was causing harmful events all around him (Cadsuane discussion with a contact goes into detail). Think of it as the opposite of when he went to the Light side of Force.

 

Some people just can't admit when they are wrong.

 

Because he said he would kill her. Then he insinuated he could stop her heart to drive the point home. That does not mean he can do it. Cadsuane believes he could and would have killed her, but she does not say, suggest, or hint, by what method he would have done that. And even if she did believe he could stop her heart by will alone, which she probably did, it still doesn't mean he actually can! It only means she was scared -- as was his goal. Very possibly by Ta'veren manipulation (something we know actually exists).

 

Given how Rand is still manipulating people (Egwene) I don't see why you all take every suggestion as fact with zero evidence that it's even possible. He never did it, he never tried to do it. The only time he mentioned it was when he was obviously trying to intimidate someone into leaving his presence, and it worked.

 

Answer me this: Imagine for a moment a powerful male channeler with lots of knowledge, like Taim, but one most likely out of his mind insane, and he said the same threat with the same serious face. A lot of average people would believe it. Then add being Ta'veren to that, and even more people would believe it. Then add being the Dragon Reborn to that, and you could likely convince Cadsuane it's true. How would she know otherwise?

 

The apple trees bloomed because the dragon is one with the land, Cadsuane is not the land. If he was one with everything alive, why on earth would he have raised the Choden kal when he went to kill the borderlanders? He could just have willed them all to die. Them, the forsaken, and all the shadowspawn. And since we know even inanimate objects in the world have a thread, I guess he could have manipulated all reality like TAR. That's what you're suggesting to me? Despite the fact we never saw him do anything of the like.

 

I don't really have to admit I'm wrong, because I'm not really trying to prove he's still bound by the channeling laws (though I believe he is), I'm just refuting your 'evidence' you claim demonstrates he's unique. So if it turns out he is as godly as you claim and can just will all the forsaken to drop dead because even Moridin has a thread, then it doesn't mean I'm wrong, I can still claim there was no factual evidence until that point, just anecdotes from PoVs who don't have the expertise or knowledge to make that call.

 

You guys on the other hand, if his channeling turns out to still be within the limits as we understand them, will quite simply be wrong because you refuse to admit your facts, are not facts! You have anecdotal evidence at best, and I'm hesitant to call it that. It might barely be foreshadowing.

 

For example, outside Shadar Logoth in TEotW there's a scene where they fight Trollocs and Mat is caught with a noose. After the fight he RJ specifically mentions how he "removes the noose and rubs his neck". If you claimed that as factual evidence he'd be hung in a future book, you'd be nuts. And from my perspective, that's similar to how you're approaching all these tidbits from tGS and TOM

[Entreri]

 

Egwene read his face? oh come on! Women don't know jack about men channeling, but she can read Rand's strength? Yes his face was cocky, he doesn't have to know he can break it, just act like it. How would Rand even know he could break it? Even LTT couldn't break it as he said in Rand's mind. But yes yes, you say this PARTICULAR incarnation of Rand's soul is somehow greater than the infinite various other incarnations from past turnings of the wheel. But here's a quote about judging strength:

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure Egwene's feeling was not at all related to Rand's channeling strength. Remember, he was shielded by 2 circle not one.

 

Her actual quote: "There's something about him. I...I had the sense...."

 

She didn't say how "strong" he had become. She wasn't not talking about his channeling ability.

 

Exactly, it is plainly evident to most people.

 

Women are far better at reading expressions than men. Similar situation occured when Rand Cadusane was sure that Rand could stop her heart without using the OP, by bending the Pattern.

 

It is true that this may not necessarily require greater strength, but after the peformance at Maradon, his strength may have increased beyond what LTT was capable of.

 

What this person does no realize is the DR is the Creator's Champion, not another mere human.

 

*Yawns*

 

 

Women cannot know channeling strength of men. Eqwene had no way of knowing what Rand can/cannot do based purely on strength. You missed my point.

 

 

Egwene know's how strong Rand was and his capabilities as a noob channeler (Egwene and Elayne were shielded at once, book 4), she was amazed at his Power, the ability to split weaves that many ways.

 

Egwene senses are heightened compared to other women, being a Dreamwalker, I certainly would not have dismissed her perception that he could break through the shield (neither did her Keeper). Add that to Rand's expression...and his other accomplishements and abilties in book 13. The DR of book 13 has moved beyond the capabilities of a mere mortal and likely beyond his capabilities in AoL.

 

Logain, Aes Sedai in Salidar: "if 5 held his shield (Logain's) he may have broken through".

 

Moghidien: "Men are stronger"

Asmodean...Rahvin's comment about overwhelming Lanfear and Grandael...etc

 

For a particular man, sure. But we are talking about Rand here.

 

The Chosen are well aware of the capabilities of the opposite sex.

 

Er.. what?Power of a noob channeler? Rand was able to channel more than Aginor as a noob channeler! Being noob simply means you don't know what to do with all that power. It doesn't mean that you actually have the strength of a baby and you will eventually end up being a linebacker! Eqwene also CANNOT measure the strength of shield held by a circle. It doesn't work like that. Powers don't add up. And some simply are better at one thing and bad at others. Why isn't Rand going around healing everyone? This has nothing to do with being "noob". Rand was able to block a gateway while being a noob and yet couldn't break 6 soft point shield. You are strong in something and you are weak at something. This is not body building where if you exercise enough, you will look like Arnold!

 

 

Eqwene has "heightened" sense to sense strength of male channelers because she is a dreamwalker? I am speechless here.

 

Logain's scence actually goes against you!!! Rand was absolutely helpless against 6 soft shield (not a circle) while Logain showed better aptitude at breaking, as the scene implies. This only proves that Raw power doesn't go that far in breaking shield.

 

Hold on, I don't remember it but could you show me quote where it says that Rahvin could have taken down Lanfear? And this makes no sense. Circle of 13 doesn't work like that! Thats the lesson Asmodean was trying to teach Rand. You don't add the power of individual Aes Sedai. Otherwise they would always lose against Rand. And yeh, we are talking about Rand. I would have hoped that this GOD Rand would simply raise his hand and poof, half million bad guys are dead. Didn't happen. He channeled for hrs!

 

And where do you get things like chosen are well aware of strength of other sex? There was this scene where Graendel muses that Sermihage might be strongest of the pack (Semirhage/Demandred/Messana). How come?

 

P.S: Sorry if I come off as a dick. You could be totally right about.. things. I just cannot believe it though. It's like we are reading two different series

 

Males gain OP strength by leaps. Women gain OP strength gradually. We know for a fact that Rand has no gained his full OP strength in book 4(Rand's POV refers to this in book 6, Prologue I believe). So in book 4 confrontation with Egwene and Elayne, Rand as a "noob" channeler has not gained his full strength.

 

Egwene is well aware of the OP strength of 13 AS linked. Any AS is aware of this. Standard pratice to hunt men, 13 AS linked, 6 to maintain the shield. Obviously the strenght in a circle is not additive as stated many times in the series. A circle of 13 could be 90%, 95% of its individual members. Aes Sedai, the Chosen are aware that nobody can break a shield held by 13 AS, it is "impossible".

 

As seen throughout the series "impossible" things have been proven very possible (even death can be healed, Shai'tan has shown this, according to Rand he could with the CK, would not be surprised if Nyaneve finds a way...possibly even time travel via say worm hole).

 

You are misunderstanding, I was not stating that Egwene's heigtened sense would enable her to sense saidin, but to better judge the situation.

 

Logain scenario shows that yes, female Aes Sedai are well aware of men's capabilities and yet Egwene was certain Rand would break the shield without any struggle. Raw strength is most important factor in breaking a shield but it may not be the only factor...this new type of Power that Rand is wielding could may allow this. Generally, in order to shield someone holding the Power, you have to be much stronger. This holds true in breaking a shield (one exception was Nyaneve being shielded by a much much weaker Sea Folk, book 7).

 

Book 5, Rahvin said either of the men would overwhelm Lanfear, but the women would link. Men are much stronger in the Power, as stated by RJ. Strenght in OP = determines ability to shield and hold a shield, the raw power/size/scope of a Weave to a large extent etc. The Chosen are well aware of the full capabilities of men and women. Greatest things in AoL were done by combining saidin and saidar.

 

Grandael muses about who is the most dangerous of the pack, which she coins as "strongest", even then eventually she realizes that it is Demandred. Clearly in a one-on-one face-to-face confronation, Demandred would be the favourite against any female, including Lanfear, and almost any male (excluding Ishamael and LTT/Rand, both of whom are stronger). That is why none of the females ever dared to face off against LTT, meanwhile Ishamael, Aginor, Sammael etc fought him directly (outside of TAR).

[Entreri]

 

First, WhiskyJack did not support you, he just clarified that her statement didn't mention strength. But of course to break a shield you need a certain strength, so she "sensed" he was strong enough (you claim). She didn't have to put a number to it. And of course I say that she has no way of doing that. What she "sensed" was Rand being so cocky and unconcerned that he was where he was, shielded twice, and it didn't bother him. He was simply certain no one would hurt him, not that they couldn't. And that poise caused Egwene to think if she tried he could do something about it. It's like the bully who doesn't know how to fight. He just acts tough and no one takes him on because they assume he could back up his attitude.

 

And oh my god you actually believe Rand COULD stop a heart by will alone?! He didn't even SAY he could do it, he asked her if she THOUGHT he could, and she just didn't call his bluff *facepalm* I think the quote is something like, "do you not believe I could will you heart to stop and the pattern would oblige me?"

 

Clearly I will get nowhere with you if you even believe things that aren't even stated in any way, shape, or form. Next you'll be saying that Rand has infinite channeling ability and could channel forever.

 

 

Wrong..it is like the bully who in normal circumstances can destroy you so you are extra careful as you do not know what else he can do except for the fact that he is much stronger.

 

The Cadusone scene was kickass...it did not matter if she believed that Rand could or could not stop her heart by will. She knew that he could and would kill her easily. It is a small step from that to how he was going to do it. I think that was scene Cads finally realized the power Rand actually had.

 

 

Cadusane: "Against all logic, she looked into his eyes and knew that if she didn't leave, she would die".

 

With Rand's dark aura, he was causing harmful events all around him (Cadsuane discussion with a contact goes into detail). Think of it as the opposite of when he went to the Light side of Force.

 

Some people just can't admit when they are wrong.

 

Because he said he would kill her. Then he insinuated he could stop her heart to drive the point home. That does not mean he can do it. Cadsuane believes he could and would have killed her, but she does not say, suggest, or hint, by what method he would have done that. And even if she did believe he could stop her heart by will alone, which she probably did, it still doesn't mean he actually can! It only means she was scared -- as was his goal. Very possibly by Ta'veren manipulation (something we know actually exists).

 

Given how Rand is still manipulating people (Egwene) I don't see why you all take every suggestion as fact with zero evidence that it's even possible. He never did it, he never tried to do it. The only time he mentioned it was when he was obviously trying to intimidate someone into leaving his presence, and it worked.

 

Answer me this: Imagine for a moment a powerful male channeler with lots of knowledge, like Taim, but one most likely out of his mind insane, and he said the same threat with the same serious face. A lot of average people would believe it. Then add being Ta'veren to that, and even more people would believe it. Then add being the Dragon Reborn to that, and you could likely convince Cadsuane it's true. How would she know otherwise?

 

The apple trees bloomed because the dragon is one with the land, Cadsuane is not the land. If he was one with everything alive, why on earth would he have raised the Choden kal when he went to kill the borderlanders? He could just have willed them all to die. Them, the forsaken, and all the shadowspawn. And since we know even inanimate objects in the world have a thread, I guess he could have manipulated all reality like TAR. That's what you're suggesting to me? Despite the fact we never saw him do anything of the like.

 

I don't really have to admit I'm wrong, because I'm not really trying to prove he's still bound by the channeling laws (though I believe he is), I'm just refuting your 'evidence' you claim demonstrates he's unique. So if it turns out he is as godly as you claim and can just will all the forsaken to drop dead because even Moridin has a thread, then it doesn't mean I'm wrong, I can still claim there was no factual evidence until that point, just anecdotes from PoVs who don't have the expertise or knowledge to make that call.

 

You guys on the other hand, if his channeling turns out to still be within the limits as we understand them, will quite simply be wrong because you refuse to admit your facts, are not facts! You have anecdotal evidence at best, and I'm hesitant to call it that. It might barely be foreshadowing.

 

For example, outside Shadar Logoth in TEotW there's a scene where they fight Trollocs and Mat is caught with a noose. After the fight he RJ specifically mentions how he "removes the noose and rubs his neck". If you claimed that as factual evidence he'd be hung in a future book, you'd be nuts. And from my perspective, that's similar to how you're approaching all these tidbits from tGS and TOM

 

I am not going to read all that. I have made by point and provided evidence.

 

Wait for book 14.

[WhiskyJack]

I give up. Collected gems though..

 

You are misunderstanding, I was not stating that Egwene's heigtened sense would enable her to sense saidin, but to better judge the situation.

 

 

As seen throughout the series "impossible" things have been proven very possible (even death can be healed, Shai'tan has shown this, according to Rand he could with the CK, would not be surprised if Nyaneve finds a way...possibly even time travel via say worm hole).

 

Grandael muses about who is the most dangerous of the pack, which she coins as "strongest", even then eventually she realizes that it is Demandred.

The Chosen are well aware of the full capabilities of men and women

 

female Aes Sedai are well aware of men's capabilities

 

So in book 4 confrontation with Egwene and Elayne, Rand as a "noob" channeler has not gained his full strength.

 

Clearly in a one-on-one face-to-face confronation, Demandred would be the favourite against any female, including Lanfear,

[Entreri]

I give up. Collected gems though..

 

You are misunderstanding, I was not stating that Egwene's heigtened sense would enable her to sense saidin, but to better judge the situation.

 

 

As seen throughout the series "impossible" things have been proven very possible (even death can be healed, Shai'tan has shown this, according to Rand he could with the CK, would not be surprised if Nyaneve finds a way...possibly even time travel via say worm hole).

 

Grandael muses about who is the most dangerous of the pack, which she coins as "strongest", even then eventually she realizes that it is Demandred.

The Chosen are well aware of the full capabilities of men and women

 

female Aes Sedai are well aware of men's capabilities

 

So in book 4 confrontation with Egwene and Elayne, Rand as a "noob" channeler has not gained his full strength.

 

Clearly in a one-on-one face-to-face confronation, Demandred would be the favourite against any female, including Lanfear,

 

Your surrender is accpeted.

 

In closing:

 

I think you are being a bit dense on purpose. Female AS are aware of what it takes to hold a man (13 and 6 rule).

 

Clearly we have seen "impossible" things being accomplished and will see more in book 14.

 

Are you disputing Rand is a noob channeler and has not gained his full strenght in book4? If so you would wrong.

 

And of course male and females of AoL, having worked together, know the strength and capbialities of the opposite sex. Example in this Age: Merise says that Narisham is growing stronger.

 

Demandered is certainly >> Lanfear. Much stronger in the Power, more skilled (since he 2nd most accomplished man in AoL, since he is "almost" LTT). Anyone that questions this delusional. Among the Chosen, Demandred is second only to Ishamael.

 

I suggest you re-read Gradael's PoV.

[WhiskyJack]

I give up. Collected gems though..

 

You are misunderstanding, I was not stating that Egwene's heigtened sense would enable her to sense saidin, but to better judge the situation.

 

 

As seen throughout the series "impossible" things have been proven very possible (even death can be healed, Shai'tan has shown this, according to Rand he could with the CK, would not be surprised if Nyaneve finds a way...possibly even time travel via say worm hole).

 

Grandael muses about who is the most dangerous of the pack, which she coins as "strongest", even then eventually she realizes that it is Demandred.

The Chosen are well aware of the full capabilities of men and women

 

female Aes Sedai are well aware of men's capabilities

 

So in book 4 confrontation with Egwene and Elayne, Rand as a "noob" channeler has not gained his full strength.

 

Clearly in a one-on-one face-to-face confronation, Demandred would be the favourite against any female, including Lanfear,

 

Your surrender is accpeted.

 

In closing:

 

I think you are being a bit dense on purpose. Female AS are aware of what it takes to hold a man (13 and 6 rule).

 

Clearly we have seen "impossible" things being accomplished and will see more in book 14.

 

Are you disputing Rand is a noob channeler and has not gained his full strenght in book4? If so you would wrong.

 

And of course male and females of AoL, having worked together, know the strength and capbialities of the opposite sex. Example in this Age: Merise says that Narisham is growing stronger.

 

Demandered is certainly >> Lanfear. Much stronger in the Power, more skilled (since he 2nd most accomplished man in AoL, since he is "almost" LTT). Anyone that questions this delusional. Among the Chosen, Demandred is second only to Ishamael.

 

I suggest you re-read Gradael's PoV.

I agree. I have never met someone who can....think this much.

 

I am pretty sure if RJ rose from grave and called you wrong, you will still keep repeating the same thing

[WhiskyJack]

Actual quotes from RJ And Brandon:

 

Brandon confirmed to me post signing last summer that RJ had nothing to compare male vs. female strength. He kept two separate systems, one for women and one for men.- Linda

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.- RJ

 

There's whole lot of stuff taken from RJ on http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/04/male-forsaken-and-their-strength-in.html

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

Fascinating read.

[iChuk]

Dear goodness. After reading through this entire thread, I realize it's come down to a power struggle, but with only one guy fighting. Surrender, really? In the end, it doesn't really matter who's right or not, and it certainly can't be proven for another nine months, give or take. I thought these threads were supposed to promote discussion, to get people to perhaps consider evidence they hadn't seen before or just look at it in a different way. I hadn't realized it's a contest. Do you get a medal or something for collecting the most 'surrenders'?

 

For a while, it was a good solid debate between theories, then it degenerated and now... it's disappointing to have spent all this time reading it just to find it like this.

[Elan Tedronai]

lolololol

 

when push came to shove rand could not break the AS shield in book 6. His alter ego Lews therin confirmed what we all knew. 13 AS can shield anyone and you need 6 to maintain it. The Tamyrlin has said that. Now unless you are going to tell me that rand aka lews therin is now lews therin 2.0 with powers that surpass his previous age (ridiculous by the way) and actually broke through a shield then it is all hogwash.

 

we need evidence, cold hard evidence not assumptions from characters other than lews therin aka rand.

[WhiskyJack]

lolololol

 

when push came to shove rand could not break the AS shield in book 6. His alter ego Lews therin confirmed what we all knew. 13 AS can shield anyone and you need 6 to maintain it. The Tamyrlin has said that. Now unless you are going to tell me that rand aka lews therin is now lews therin 2.0 with powers that surpass his previous age (ridiculous by the way) and actually broke through a shield then it is all hogwash.

 

we need evidence, cold hard evidence not assumptions from characters other than lews therin aka rand.

 

 

You don't know anything. Egwene, being a dreamwalker, is sensitive to things like that. She felt that Rand is so strong now (what with her able to measure his strength), that he could have broken 2 circles by channeling this new fancy saidin.

 

If you don't believe all this, you are dense

 

 

Yes, the fact that Rand basically "requested" his mentor to save enough saidar for a gateway when they were going to Far Madding can simply be ignored. We all know that he could have overpowered that ter'angreal in FM but he was just playing!

[Elan Tedronai]

lolololol

 

when push came to shove rand could not break the AS shield in book 6. His alter ego Lews therin confirmed what we all knew. 13 AS can shield anyone and you need 6 to maintain it. The Tamyrlin has said that. Now unless you are going to tell me that rand aka lews therin is now lews therin 2.0 with powers that surpass his previous age (ridiculous by the way) and actually broke through a shield then it is all hogwash.

 

we need evidence, cold hard evidence not assumptions from characters other than lews therin aka rand.

 

 

You don't know anything. Egwene, being a dreamwalker, is sensitive to things like that. She felt that Rand is so strong now (what with her able to measure his strength), that he could have broken 2 circles by channeling this new fancy saidin.

 

If you don't believe all this, you are dense

 

 

Yes, the fact that Rand basically "requested" his mentor to save enough saidar for a gateway when they were going to Far Madding can simply be ignored. We all know that he could have overpowered that ter'angreal in FM but he was just playing!

 

 

like i said, we need proof. cold hard proof. not assumption, gut feeling, hair on the back of neck etc.

 

i base my theory on fact that rand could not break through a shield. Lews therin didnt think it was possible either.

 

And you are basing yours on an assumption made by egwene.

[WhiskyJack]

lolololol

 

when push came to shove rand could not break the AS shield in book 6. His alter ego Lews therin confirmed what we all knew. 13 AS can shield anyone and you need 6 to maintain it. The Tamyrlin has said that. Now unless you are going to tell me that rand aka lews therin is now lews therin 2.0 with powers that surpass his previous age (ridiculous by the way) and actually broke through a shield then it is all hogwash.

 

we need evidence, cold hard evidence not assumptions from characters other than lews therin aka rand.

 

 

You don't know anything. Egwene, being a dreamwalker, is sensitive to things like that. She felt that Rand is so strong now (what with her able to measure his strength), that he could have broken 2 circles by channeling this new fancy saidin.

 

If you don't believe all this, you are dense

 

 

Yes, the fact that Rand basically "requested" his mentor to save enough saidar for a gateway when they were going to Far Madding can simply be ignored. We all know that he could have overpowered that ter'angreal in FM but he was just playing!

 

 

like i said, we need proof. cold hard proof. not assumption, gut feeling, hair on the back of neck etc.

 

i base my theory on fact that rand could not break through a shield. Lews therin didnt think it was possible either.

 

And you are basing yours on an assumption made by egwene.

 

Not me actually . Besides there is difference between getting cut off while holding the Saidin and being held on 6 point shield when you are not touching the source. Once you are cut of from the source, it will simply be impossible to break 1 circles of 13 channelers, let alone 2. The power required could easily melt blight and possibly still every Aes Sedai holding the shield. Rand didn't display any such power in Maradon.

[XXX]

Actual quotes from RJ And Brandon:

 

Brandon confirmed to me post signing last summer that RJ had nothing to compare male vs. female strength. He kept two separate systems, one for women and one for men.- Linda

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.- RJ

 

There's whole lot of stuff taken from RJ on http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/04/male-forsaken-and-their-strength-in.html

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

Fascinating read.

 

That is interesting but it does not reflect what happens in the books. Rand/Ishy are the strongest males alive while Lanfear is strong as a female can be. In the battle at the dock..Jordan has confirmed that if Rand had listened to LTT he could have beaten Lanfear(who was also using an extermely powerful angreal almost a sa'angreal)..and among the forsaken no one(including Lanfear) has dared to confront Ishy. So either Rand/Ishy are so uniquely powerful that the

"Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree."

does not apply to them or there is an inconsistency in the books.

[WhiskyJack]

^^Can you post the quote from Jordan? Lanfear had an angreal (don't remember it being so powerful that it was like a sa'angreal) and so did Rand. I don't think Lanfear had a Sa'angreal because Sa'angreal can give way too much power to a person (multiplying their power like 10 times or more). Even a woman with "zero" power could have beaten LTT with a Sa'angreal. Besides at that time Rand was not at his full potential so if he was the one channeling less power and he was capable of beating Lanfear due to knowledge of LTT, does it not prove that power isn't everything? Exactly what Jordan was trying to say? Was LTT the most skilled channeler? Perhaps. He did a man with same strength twice.

 

 

Jordan's quote emphasizes the idea of skill over brute force since opposite sexes cannot see each others weave. I don't know about Ishy or why he matters but it seems Aginor had fought LTT and met him stroke for stoke in Hall of Servants as he claimed in first book.