Bin Laden dead

[JKN-SW]

It's big news in Sweden too, of course. Most agree the world is better without him, but that his death, on the other hand, won't bring any dramatic changes. Many comment that his ideas were already obolete in the muslim world and that the revolutions in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt is the new focus, with hopes of a peacful change towards democracy.

As to him beeing killed instead of taken prisoner, just like on this board the opinions differ. Some think it would have been more civilzed with a capture and trial, others have no issue with it.

And, finally, there are warnings that security in short term could be worse, with individuals wanting revenge on the western countries.

[yoniy0]

Well, here's a thought. Proverbs 24:17 says "Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth". Watching scenes of celebrations in the streets does make me uneasy. The free world should never be deterred from pursuing justice, but nor should it succumb to the same moral standards Bin Laden embodied.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I read in the papers that this operation gathered a lot of steam as President Obama turned his personal attention to it over the past few weeks. Somebody upthread said that it's all glory for the military officers and politicians don't play a part. They couldn't be more wrong.

 

A huge and long overdue victory for America, with big props to the Navy and to the Obama Administration. Navy's gonna be holding this one over the heads of the other service branches for a while, and all those Obama haters are going to need some Alka-Seltzer for sure. =)

[Rufae]

JUST RELEASED! OSAMA BIN LADEN DEATH PHOTO!!!

 

 

[yoniy0]

Somebody upthread said that it's all glory for the military officers and politicians don't play a part. They couldn't be more wrong.

I said it. Well, sort of. I said 'typically', since no one (who doesn't have clearance) can tell for sure how this operation came about. But from what I know of the process, I stand by what I said.

And, in case you're wondering, I'm not an 'Obama-hater'. Nor a fan. I'm not an American to begin with, so the question's kind of moot.

As for this being a "huge victory", I won't repeat what I said on that. Suffice it to say that it is in fact a huge victory from some respects (such as domestic - and to a lesser extent, foreign - PR), but the jury's still out on the long-term effects.

Regardless, it had to be done, and it was no small feat. Kudos to those who had a hand in the planning and execution of this operation, and congratulations to all you Americans (and Brits and Canadians, I should say) out there.

[Visar Falmaien]

I would like to offer my opinion about two issues here.

 

As far as capturing Osama bin Laden and giving him a trial, from what I've heard (though this is probably far from reliable) they most likely tried to get him to surrender. But this is bin Laden. If he knew that he was about to be taken he would have resorted to any means to avoid it, including suicide.

 

I've heard of a story of him using a woman as a body shield and they had to take both of them out. Not sure how true that is that's just what I've heard. Another thought came to mind that he might have committed suicide before they got to him, and concealed the manner of his demise. Ultimately, his death was caused by U.S. troops aided by CIA intelligence. Whether they did it themselves or not doesn't really matter to me, and if he killed himself, would you really blame them for wanting to take credit instead?

 

Why don't we have photos and proof yet? Why don't we have his body paraded around the U.S.?

 

As for the former, I'm sure they did make sure it was really him. However, protecting the citizens who were involved in the operation (keeping them strictly anonymous) is of critical importance at this time when we're not really sure what the long term implications of his death will mean as far as the continuation of groups like Al'Qaeda.

 

As for the body, I think giving his corpse the attention that it certainly does not deserve would defeat the point. Yes, he was a mass murderer or involved in 9/11 (at least he took credit for it). Why should we treat him like a Roman Consul or Caesar would treat a captured enemy? Julius Caesar parading Vercingetorix around in his triumph comes to mind. A public spectactle for propaganda and then a quiet execution later. We're no longer in roman times, and we no longer need to put corpses on display. It's barbarous and pointless.

 

I think that the way they dealt with the corpse was right. They certainly didn't want to offend Middle Eastern allies or countries in seeing if anyone would bury him on their soil (which would be seen as an insult). They also wouldn't want to do something barbarous and grotesque with the body (like parading it around) which would also insult those countries. And I think to a great extent any public display of his corpse would give him too much attention that he does not deserve. Rather, let history forget his body (completely decomposed on the sea floor somewhere eaten by ze lampreys/hagfish, not sure if the sharks would touch him lol), his ideals, and what he stood for, and move on.

 

That's my thought anyway. Glad he's gotten rid of, let's keep going and focus on more important things, like trying to get more U.S. troops home if possible.

[Red2111]

Winterwinds, Visar ... you guys have alot of words of wisdom in those two posts.

 

about the body. the vengeful part of me (the blood thristy part at learning he was dead) would have preferred to humilate not only him while he was alive, but also his body after he went through a long painful death. its a sadistic satisfaction, a way to feel that the needless deaths he's caused (starting all the way back in 1993 under Clinton) finally had justice. but as the news of his death, and the reality of it (that nothing has relaly changed except tensions are higher) makes the logical part kick in and that vengeful monster in me sink back into the depths.

 

Visar, you make alot of good points considering the treatment of his bodie; the not giving his body any more attention that it diserves. i suspect he would have atucally wanted his body paraded around liek a trophy, especially since your right in that all it would do would be to temporarily satisfy blood thirsty wants like mine. it certaintly wouldn't do our troops good, which is the most important aspect of this entire war, so i'm revising my opinion of that.

 

 

I read in the papers that this operation gathered a lot of steam as President Obama turned his personal attention to it over the past few weeks. Somebody upthread said that it's all glory for the military officers and politicians don't play a part. They couldn't be more wrong.

 

A huge and long overdue victory for America, with big props to the Navy and to the Obama Administration. Navy's gonna be holding this one over the heads of the other service branches for a while, and all those Obama haters are going to need some Alka-Seltzer for sure. =)

 

Emu, i'm a bit biased when it comes to Obama; unlike yiniy0, i've made it plain on the subject that i neither like the man that he is (through his actions), nor do i agree with his agenda and i trust him less than i do most politicans which is saying something.

 

 

first, you have your facts scewed about this operation gaining steam. the operation for finding bin laden has had the same steam since 9/11. even when we went into Iraq. while the main military's forces were preoccupied with iraq; we still had the CIA, Delta Forces & other Intel orginaizations focusing on finding and either killing or capturing that monster in Afgahnastan & Pakistan.

 

the president, both Obama & Bush only got briefs on it (a report to say heres what we've done), they didn't do any real work towards getting this goon. no more than a supervisor of a job actually does the work of the employees. you say it picked up steam just these past weeks when Obama turned his attention to it, correct. well let me ask you something, seeing as they've known Osama was in that compound since August 2010, shouldn't Obama have turned his attention then to Bin Laden, rather than waiting for when he was gearing up for re-election and his polle numbers were down? but we forget, Obama was already pre-occupied in August 2010 with pushing his infamous Healthcare dibacole down our throats, and at that point, his poll numbers were just fine. so excuse me while i don't give him much credit for moving this operation along considering he's sat on it for burn near a flaming year. (yes i just cussed using WoT words, 2 points to me for being a geek!!)

 

 

majority of the glory does go to the CIA, the guys at GITMO, the Navy officers, and the Military on a whole; not to mention the civilians which put their lives and the lives of their familes at great risk to out those goons over there. without those people, not only would we not have the intell to capture & kill all of these terrorists, but our country would be defenseless. unless you think a politican can talk a terrorist into giving up. so give credit where it's due, and realize that this isn't all Obama's glory (the public perception will put him at the forfront)

 

 

i notice you also left out that this is a victory of the Bush Administration; as the intel that lead to finding out where Osama was since 2006 came from advanced interigation techniques used by the guards at GITMO on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in 2007. it was only a single piece of information, one of many that the CIA had to put together to get the outcome we had Sunday; but considering the atmosphere of "Blam Bush" is still previlant, even though i don't like the man 100% nor agree with him, i do hate to see people leave out his part in securing bin ladens deaht and the demise of al quada eventually.

[Feral]

Well, here's a thought. Proverbs 24:17 says "Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth". Watching scenes of celebrations in the streets does make me uneasy. The free world should never be deterred from pursuing justice, but nor should it succumb to the same moral standards Bin Laden embodied.

 

I have to agree with this. This is why I would have prefered him to be arrested and tried, so the difference between his ways and our ways would have been highlighted. For it to be justice, he should have been dealt with coldly and without predjudice. To have him shot just like that and then all the celebrations...just makes it seem more like revenge. Gah I worded that badly brain's not working.

[Red2111]

Visary, i moved your post to the Bin Laden topic in the D&D forum located here since it was becoming more political in nature. i've also posted my response there as well

[Feral]

They just said on the news that he was unarmed, but "resisting". How does that work? So he could have been taken alive...

[yoniy0]

They just said on the news that he was unarmed, but "resisting". How does that work? So he could have been taken alive...

Yes, my news said he was shot twice, once in the chest and once in the head. That doesn't really sound like they wanted him alive either.

[Feral]

Just thought if he was unarmed then why the heck was his wife (who he was supposedly using as a human shield) shot? Or maybe that didn't happen quite as it was reported at first either? Honestly with something like this I'd have thought the American gouvernment would have laid out all the facts clearly straight away.

[Elend]

Yes, but that doesn't mean everything they publish is true. In this example, one officer could be putting his own spin on the orders he saw (like, if the mission's priority was to preserve their forces over taking him alive, which in the situation meant he would most likely be killed), or he might even be speaking from hearsay. Needless to say, whoever it was decided to make a reporter privy to what has to be either secret or false information, which should lead us to - at the very least - question his character.

 

I was just clarifying that Reuters is an old and respected news agency, as Red had never heard of them before.

 

Winterwinds, Visar ... you guys have alot of words of wisdom in those two posts.

 

about the body. the vengeful part of me (the blood thristy part at learning he was dead) would have preferred to humilate not only him while he was alive, but also his body after he went through a long painful death. its a sadistic satisfaction, a way to feel that the needless deaths he's caused (starting all the way back in 1993 under Clinton) finally had justice. but as the news of his death, and the reality of it (that nothing has relaly changed except tensions are higher) makes the logical part kick in and that vengeful monster in me sink back into the depths.

 

Visar, you make alot of good points considering the treatment of his bodie; the not giving his body any more attention that it diserves. i suspect he would have atucally wanted his body paraded around liek a trophy, especially since your right in that all it would do would be to temporarily satisfy blood thirsty wants like mine. it certaintly wouldn't do our troops good, which is the most important aspect of this entire war, so i'm revising my opinion of that.

 

 

I read in the papers that this operation gathered a lot of steam as President Obama turned his personal attention to it over the past few weeks. Somebody upthread said that it's all glory for the military officers and politicians don't play a part. They couldn't be more wrong.

 

A huge and long overdue victory for America, with big props to the Navy and to the Obama Administration. Navy's gonna be holding this one over the heads of the other service branches for a while, and all those Obama haters are going to need some Alka-Seltzer for sure. =)

 

Emu, i'm a bit biased when it comes to Obama; unlike yiniy0, i've made it plain on the subject that i neither like the man that he is (through his actions), nor do i agree with his agenda and i trust him less than i do most politicans which is saying something.

 

 

first, you have your facts scewed about this operation gaining steam. the operation for finding bin laden has had the same steam since 9/11. even when we went into Iraq. while the main military's forces were preoccupied with iraq; we still had the CIA, Delta Forces & other Intel orginaizations focusing on finding and either killing or capturing that monster in Afgahnastan & Pakistan.

 

the president, both Obama & Bush only got briefs on it (a report to say heres what we've done), they didn't do any real work towards getting this goon. no more than a supervisor of a job actually does the work of the employees. you say it picked up steam just these past weeks when Obama turned his attention to it, correct. well let me ask you something, seeing as they've known Osama was in that compound since August 2010, shouldn't Obama have turned his attention then to Bin Laden, rather than waiting for when he was gearing up for re-election and his polle numbers were down? but we forget, Obama was already pre-occupied in August 2010 with pushing his infamous Healthcare dibacole down our throats, and at that point, his poll numbers were just fine. so excuse me while i don't give him much credit for moving this operation along considering he's sat on it for burn near a flaming year. (yes i just cussed using WoT words, 2 points to me for being a geek!!)

 

 

majority of the glory does go to the CIA, the guys at GITMO, the Navy officers, and the Military on a whole; not to mention the civilians which put their lives and the lives of their familes at great risk to out those goons over there. without those people, not only would we not have the intell to capture & kill all of these terrorists, but our country would be defenseless. unless you think a politican can talk a terrorist into giving up. so give credit where it's due, and realize that this isn't all Obama's glory (the public perception will put him at the forfront)

 

 

i notice you also left out that this is a victory of the Bush Administration; as the intel that lead to finding out where Osama was since 2006 came from advanced interigation techniques used by the guards at GITMO on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in 2007. it was only a single piece of information, one of many that the CIA had to put together to get the outcome we had Sunday; but considering the atmosphere of "Blam Bush" is still previlant, even though i don't like the man 100% nor agree with him, i do hate to see people leave out his part in securing bin ladens deaht and the demise of al quada eventually.

 

The reason the operation took so long from when the intelligence was obtained has to do with deciding what to do. Whether we like it or not Osama bin Laden was not the only thing going on around this time. Health care had nothing to do with it since it had already passed by the time the intel came in (a few months prior actually). They didn't even completely decide on a small raid without Pakistani support or knowledge until something like March and, considering the compound had been around since 2005, I think most were pretty confident he'd still be there for the time.

 

Further, if he'd done it for re-election, wouldn't it behoove him to do it in October of 2012? Politically this will not be a major issue and will get him a temporary bump of around 8-9 points in approval ratings. Not exactly a smart move politically speaking.

 

No one is forgetting the military in this. Pretty much every public statement (that I've seen at least) and every person I've personally interacted with has first put the intelligence gathering and military first (I've not followed this extremely closely though, and I've seen some dumb comments from both right and left on blogs). Crediting President Obama is not a flawed thing to do, though. He did a politically risky thing in ordering this raid- think of how it'd have gone down if the entire thing failed. I can promise you every single conservative news source would be all over it with Carter comparisons. Hell, the President overrode most of his cabinet once or twice when it came to what to do (apparently what they wanted to do was bomb it, which wouldn't allow for easy kill confirmation and would probably make it more difficult for Pakistan to brush everything off due to possible civilian casualties).

 

As for whether the enhanced interrogation techniques had anything to do with it, no one really knows except for people that aren't talking. I'd not really be surprised, though.

 

ETA: What I'm really interested in is the content of the hard-drives from the premise. Gotta be full of juicy stuff.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

As far as capturing Osama bin Laden and giving him a trial, from what I've heard (though this is probably far from reliable) they most likely tried to get him to surrender. But this is bin Laden. If he knew that he was about to be taken he would have resorted to any means to avoid it, including suicide.

 

The latest information is that they did try, but not very hard, and once bin Laden's wife rushed the sailors they shot and killed bin Laden. That sounds like a story with some holes in it, so I'm hopeful that more complete information will be forthcoming. In the meantime, it sounds like capturing him alive was not considered to be preferable to capturing him dead.

 

I've heard of a story of him using a woman as a body shield and they had to take both of them out. Not sure how true that is that's just what I've heard.

 

The reports are that she put herself between them on her own initiative. Again, that's just the latest. It's not necessarily the whole truth.

 

Another thought came to mind that he might have committed suicide before they got to him, and concealed the manner of his demise.

 

They talked about a gun wound above his eye. That makes suicide unlikely, and in any event the authorities have nothing to gain from doctoring the story in that way.

 

Why don't we have photos and proof yet?

 

The government is being very secretive about releasing photos, and I think it's because of the martyrdom value, like you mentioned. Just killing bin Laden is going to increase terrorist activity against us in the short term. Putting out photos of bin Laden will add up to more American lives lost. However, given the public demand for a photo I think it's inevitable that they'll eventually release a few.

 

Why don't we have his body paraded around the U.S.?

 

Because that would be a disgusting display of barbaric savagery, just like you said. We're not tribalists who killed an enemy chief. We're Americans who brought a terrorist to justice. That doesn't warrant a parade. It warrants somber appreciation.

 

~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

Emu, i'm a bit biased when it comes to Obama; unlike yiniy0, i've made it plain on the subject that i neither like the man that he is (through his actions), nor do i agree with his agenda and i trust him less than i do most politicans which is saying something.

 

That does say something, yes.

 

'

first, you have your facts scewed about this operation gaining steam. the operation for finding bin laden has had the same steam since 9/11. even when we went into Iraq. while the main military's forces were preoccupied with iraq; we still had the CIA, Delta Forces & other Intel orginaizations focusing on finding and either killing or capturing that monster in Afgahnastan & Pakistan.

 

I read a lot of news, from multiple sources. I even know about tiny, obscure little international news agencies like Reuters. If my facts are ever screwed it's only because the entire news media has it wrong.

 

Do you mean to say you aren't aware that President Obama made it an anti-terrorism priority to get bin Laden? His administration had a big initiative toward this goal.

 

Do you mean to say you don't remember that candidate Obama promised during the election campaign that he would unilaterally send troops into Pakistan to get bin Laden if he had actionable intelligence to support such a move? Ultimately, that's exactly what happened.

 

The events of recent days began last August. That's when the steam began to build, and it really took hold once we had gathered enough intelligence to plausibly get an idea of where bin Laden was. President Obama's personal involvement in recent weeks pushed it over the top.

 

There is an element of luck here, being the initial tip that set all of these events in motion. That tip might as easily have come during the Bush administration. But it didn't, and Bush gave up on bin Laden after getting bogged down in Iraq, making it very unlikely that we would get bin Laden on Bush's watch unless he were delivered into our hands. You're right that our national security apparatus continued the search for him, but it ceased to be a political priority. Bush himself said as much, preferring to focus on the more nebulous threat of "terrorism" as opposed to actual, individual terrorists who killed our people.

 

well let me ask you something, seeing as they've known Osama was in that compound since August 2010, shouldn't Obama have turned his attention then to Bin Laden, rather than waiting for when he was gearing up for re-election and his polle numbers were down? but we forget, Obama was already pre-occupied in August 2010 with pushing his infamous Healthcare dibacole down our throats, and at that point, his poll numbers were just fine.

 

The 2012 presidential campaign doesn't begin in earnest until winter 2011-2012. It doesn't begin at all until the 2010 congressional elections in November 2010. August 2010 comes before either of those periods. Obama was not gunning for reelection. You're suggesting that he waited, as if the only thing of interest to him was winning elections, as if he had no desire to see America's worst terrorist enemy brought to justice. Aside from being offensive, that's just plain wrong. He could have taken the edge off the trouncing given to the Dems in November 2010 by ordering the attack on bin Laden before that election.

 

Did it really not occur to you to consider that it may simply have taken all this time for our intelligence to get a solid idea of where bin Laden was? Did you never stop to consider that launching a military operation on foreign soil is a very serious action that falls just short of being an act of war? We needed to know that it was bin Laden, for sure, before going in there.

 

Other things you got wrong: The healthcare bills were signed in March 2010, well before August 2010. Obama's poll numbers have been essentially flat since the start of 2010, including the healthcare reform signing, the November elections, and the attack on bin Laden a few days ago.

 

If you want to be taken seriously by people who take politics seriously, you need to be well-informed. Using bad information (and poor grammar) to support fringe political views makes you look more like a sideshow in these conversations than an honest participant. As a moderator (!), you owe it to yourself and this community to set a better example.

 

i notice you also left out that this is a victory of the Bush Administration; as the intel that lead to finding out where Osama was since 2006 came from advanced interigation techniques used by the guards at GITMO on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in 2007.

 

You are misinformed. KSM gave interrogators a name, attached to one of bin Laden's trusted couriers. It was not the individual's true name, nor did KSM give information about the courier's location. It was essentially a useless lead.

 

Even if it had been a useful lead, it would have come at the deplorable expense of torture. Enlightened countries do not torture. Anybody. Ever. To fall short of that value not only erodes our ethical integrity as a leader of nations. It also exposes us to retributive torture on our captured troops and citizens.

[Red2111]

Elend, Emu; becuase the convo is likely to turn into a political debate i've opened a new thread in the D&D for us to continue this line of discussion. i encourage others to post there thoughts there as well

 

 

They just said on the news that he was unarmed, but "resisting". How does that work? So he could have been taken alive...

Yes, my news said he was shot twice, once in the chest and once in the head. That doesn't really sound like they wanted him alive either.

 

reports here in the US have been and remain that he was shot twice in the left side of his face near his eye. now events surrounding when & why he was shot do seem to keep changing

[Kivam]

They just said on the news that he was unarmed, but "resisting". How does that work? So he could have been taken alive...

Yes, my news said he was shot twice, once in the chest and once in the head. That doesn't really sound like they wanted him alive either.

 

Actually, that makes it sound more like he was actually doing something that got him shot - a chest wound and a head wound means he was probably shot by two different people at roughly the same time (not the same guy twice in different locations); if two of the attack team both simultaneously decided he needed to be shot . . . odds are something he did provoked that decision.

[Massive]

Not necessarily true. The mozambique drill (two to the chest, one to the head) is pretty common training in the US military. Sometimes it happens the head shot comes first, lol.

[Feral]

They they said it was a standard thing, the second shot was to make sure he was dead.

[Red2111]

apparently one of OBL's daughters witnessed the entire thing. My link

 

 

i don't think it's hit the main stream media yet, i could only find a few places online that mention it. apparently, shes claiming US forces shot OBL after they captured him.

 

 

thoughts on this? how do you think the US will respond.

 

 

theres also reports of a pakistan civillian who watched and twittered the entire mission while it went down. but i can't seem to find any articles on that.

 

 

heres another article written for the AP on how they tracked down OBL too My link

[Red2111]

heres some news reports on OBL and how they foudn him as well

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X96LXweqaYE&feature=related

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVq7DuxiamQ&feature=relmfu

[Feral]

I did read that one of his daughters witnessed the shooting. I think it said she was only 12, which is horrible. It's the wife that got shot I really feel sorry for though. For all we know she might have been forced into marrying him and she might not have shared his radical ideas.

[Red2111]

if she was used as a human shield, i feel sorry for her; but if she attacked our troops by trhowing herself at them to protect that SOB, more than likely she believed the same garbage as OBL.

 

 

i agree abotu the 12 yr old. seeing a death is bad enough, but witnessing a family member being killed (even OBL) isn't someting i'd wish on anyone. i hope she can overcome it mentally and is able to return to her family.

[Feral]

The article I saw said she "ran at" them, but that doesn't mean she was definitely trying to attack the soldiers. If someone was trying to use me as a human shield, I'd run, and I presume the soldiers had them cornered so the only direction to run in would be towards the soldiers. Oh well guess we'll never know, and that probably goes for a lot of the details of how it really happened.

[yoniy0]

When in a hostile environment, you must assume everyone you see a potential hostile combatant. A hand-grenade in her pocket could've took out an entire squadron. I don't find it hard to understand in the least, why she had to be shot (in the leg, and she did survive).

[Majsju]

I can hardly believe that people here seem to actually think that capturing bin Ladin was ever an option. Whatever fairlytales that might leak out, the operation was an exectution.

 

Seriously, no matter what Obama claims in front of the ca<meras, the order was Shoot to kill. There is simply no way anyone in the yank adminsitration would ever allow bin Ladin to sit down and give his version of what has happened, because of the extremely inconvenient things he would have to say.