Light Vs Dark - A Draw?

[yoniy0]

Just so we're all perfectly clear - this thread has seen some obscene language in the last page. We will not tolerate anyone expressing themselves in that manner, and so I urge you all to remain civilized even when the discussion doesn't go as you might like.

This is probably a good place to commend Nightstrike for how he reacted. Good on you.

[AnimusMessor]

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

So from this I think we can agree that the soul of LTT isnt ALWAYS the DR and that the DR alternates from different Heroes. Just throwin it out there.

[UncleButcher1980]

I added a poll for fun.

[Nightstrike]

I added a poll for fun.

In the context of what Ishy told Rand & Sammael, then I'd say "the champion" is the Dragon soul. But, under those events when Dragons are turned (like they tried with Lews Therin), then I'd think you could call other people "champions of the Light".

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i never would have predicted consensus. very nice.

[Nightstrike]

i never would have predicted consensus. very nice.

 

(Not exactly consensus, though.)

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

still, very nice.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, well, I gather the poll is about what Ishy talked about? So maybe I'll answer "yes" anyway... If it's not what Ishy talked about, then I don't know.

[Entreri]

One champion and he has never turned to the Shadow. The Creator's champion is always the strongest and he has never needed a replacement.

[UncleButcher1980]

I added a poll for fun.

In the context of what Ishy told Rand & Sammael, then I'd say "the champion" is the Dragon soul. But, under those events when Dragons are turned (like they tried with Lews Therin), then I'd think you could call other people "champions of the Light".

 

 

Do you mean other people simply assume the mantle of Champion rather than being spun out by the Wheel?

[Nightstrike]

Do you mean other people simply assume the mantle of Champion rather than being spun out by the Wheel?

I assume that "The Champion of the Light" is Ishy's own name for all that. I don't know what to call it when others fight for the light.

[UncleButcher1980]

Do you mean other people simply assume the mantle of Champion rather than being spun out by the Wheel?

I assume that "The Champion of the Light" is Ishy's own name for all that. I don't know what to call it when others fight for the light.

 

 

Ok, it's just I was thinking earlier that if the Champion turned to the Shadow the Wheel would then spin out the Dragon soul, which could result in the draw Robert Jordan mentioned. Of course, that would only make sense if the two were ever separate people (or souls). But I took what you said to mean if the Dragon soul was ever turned, say if Rand is turned, then maybe Mat or Perrin or whoever could take up the mantle of Champion, but out of necessity rather than the Wheel commanding events.

[Puny]

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

 

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

 

 

This quote implies that the dragon soul is bound to the Horn and the Wheel. It implies that the dragon soul is spun out at the will of the Pattern. It also implies that the Dragon soul can be born in another Age but not show any Dragon-ness...because it wouldn´t fit that Age, as in the same dragon soul but all the qualities that would define him as a dragon soul are hidden, or sealed off. Maybe in an Age where there is no channeling for example.

When the dragon soul doesnt work for some reason or the Pattern doesn´t think it´s time yet, I do think the Pattern spins out other CoL. The dragon soul is a CoL but not the only one.

[Nightstrike]

This quote implies that the dragon soul is bound to the Horn and the Wheel. It implies that the dragon soul is spun out at the will of the Pattern. It also implies that the Dragon soul can be born in another Age but not show any Dragon-ness...because it wouldn´t fit that Age, as in the same dragon soul but all the qualities that would define him as a dragon soul are hidden, or sealed off. Maybe in an Age where there is no channeling for example.

When the dragon soul doesnt work for some reason or the Pattern doesn´t think it´s time yet, I do think the Pattern spins out other CoL. The dragon soul is a CoL but not the only one.

Other "champions", yes (if it's not an official title... probably not), but was that what Ishy talked about with Rand & Sammael?

[UncleButcher1980]

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

 

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

 

 

This quote implies that the dragon soul is bound to the Horn and the Wheel. It implies that the dragon soul is spun out at the will of the Pattern. It also implies that the Dragon soul can be born in another Age but not show any Dragon-ness...because it wouldn´t fit that Age, as in the same dragon soul but all the qualities that would define him as a dragon soul are hidden, or sealed off. Maybe in an Age where there is no channeling for example.

When the dragon soul doesnt work for some reason or the Pattern doesn´t think it´s time yet, I do think the Pattern spins out other CoL. The dragon soul is a CoL but not the only one.

 

 

 

Yes that makes a lot of sense. I think the Dragon soul has certainly been the Champion in this Third Age and the Age of Legends, but perhaps in other Ages has taken a back seat in proceedings, and only appeared when the Horn called it, or whatever called Heroes before the Horn existed.

[Nightstrike]

Ok, it's just I was thinking earlier that if the Champion turned to the Shadow the Wheel would then spin out the Dragon soul, which could result in the draw Robert Jordan mentioned. Of course, that would only make sense if the two were ever separate people (or souls). But I took what you said to mean if the Dragon soul was ever turned, say if Rand is turned, then maybe Mat or Perrin or whoever could take up the mantle of Champion, but out of necessity rather than the Wheel commanding events.

I don't know about that. Maybe some character in the series would call them champions? And maybe they would perform some functions similar to the Dragon?

[coolpool]

Hey, just finished reading threw the thread and voted no in the poll.

Like reading through the quotes that have been convienently found and numrousliy repeted (so i dont need to repete them)and.. I got to say like that i thought that the champion of the light changes per age depending on the circomstances like (pease excuss the spelling it is like 11pm and i'm drowsy and i can't spell normally anyway). Like that gets around some of the contradictions with the RJ qoutes says that the dragon has never gone over but the champion has like. The only way this could be true was if there was different champions.. now if the dragons sole has never gone over to the shadow then no wonder the DO wants him on his side like cos you know (can't explain what im thinking.. but it would be bad like cos he has never gone over before and.. if he want over then the world would probally be screwed... i hope you get what i mean like) so right now the dragon is the lights champion but that doesn't mean he allways is. Like with the samael thing i think the nightshadow guy or nightstalker guy or something like that keeps saying that the dragon is the only champion (i think, i dont read the names and it gets confusion whos agueing what so soz if i get it wrong)..., Samael doen't remeber the previous lives, and he is going on what he thinks the dragon is... and right like now he is the champion of the light... but going on RJ quotes, there are implications of other champions and so in like the 5 age for exapmle, the dragon probally wont be the lights champion... if there even need to be a champion also That wouldn't be fair for the wheel to constantly spin him out to suffer 2nd age then get mentally tourchered every 3rd age etc. He would be seriously distured in the TAR as a hero of the horn if he had all these bad experiences without some sort of rest bite... i hope i havn't repeted what others have basically said but that is just what i think and agree with the other people who have said simular things previously.....

[Puny]

Sure that some dude in the series/world could call them CoL.. but would that make them one? Or does the Pattern need to actively spin them out? I don´t think that other CoL could perform similar things to the Dragon Soul. The Dragon Soul is the Dragon Soul and he is spun out for a reason. As sure as the Hero of Destruction (Shivan?) is spun out when the Wheel wills it, and she has her qualities the Dragon Soul has hers, that make the Dragon Soul what it is.

 

Or maybe I´m misunderstanding...

[UncleButcher1980]

I don't know about that. Maybe some character in the series would call them champions? And maybe they would perform some functions similar to the Dragon?

 

Yes, that's what I meant by out of necessity. Someone, or many people, could be champions but not Champions, or the Champion.

 

Incidentally, does anyone know where the name Champion of the Light originated? I know 'Creator's champion is mentioned in the books but I don't think that is.

[Nightstrike]

Incidentally, does anyone know where the name Champion of the Light originated? I know 'Creator's champion is mentioned in the books but I don't think that is.

The fan who asked RJ a question wrote and asked if Ishy had told Rand the truth when he said that "the champion of the light" had gone over in the past.

 

(That's probably where that exact phrasing came from.)

[UncleButcher1980]

But in the book Ishmael didn't use that phrase did he? I don't have the books to check right now.

 

 

Just seen your edit, so probably a fan-coined phrase.

[Suttree]

Even though RJ was clear he never intended to explore it, I wonder out of the the Heroes of the Horn which one was the "female Dragon" he said we saw at Falme.

 

Thus Spake the Creator - The Dragon

If the Wheel needs a female Dragon, then it would weave in *insert female dragon name here*. Probably because of the blank faces he was getting he then added, you can find her in the scene where Mat blows the Horn...

[aaron11]

I don't understand why any of you are taking Rand's statements for fact. They were made in the second book, at which time Rand knew pretty much nothing about the DR, and he has yet to hear voices from LTT. His denial that the DR's soul has never turned to the shadow are the same as Luke's denial that Vader was his father... The DR and the Champion of the Light are the same soul. That being said doesn't mean that there aren't other souls that fight the shadow near the same level that the DR's soul fights, but is not the same soul. You guys are fighting over semantics...

[Terez]

Yeah, and the argument collapses at the point where the Champion of Light question dealt with what Ishamael said to Rand (which didn't include the terminology). So the statement refers to Rand's soul either way. Add that to the fact that Brandon has said that Rand's and Ishamael's souls are often woven together kinda like Birgitte and Gaidal are. I wonder if they would be destined to meet in Ages when the Dark One is forgotten and tightly locked up.

 

So, Rand is always the Champion. At first when RJ was asked about the female Dragon, he said he never intended to explore that. And then I think he realized that the women were annoyed that a woman could never be the savior of mankind, so he threw in the hero seen at Falme, whoever she was. From RJ's perspective, I'm thinking he figured that being the savior of mankind was a job no sane person would actually want, so he didn't see it as being terribly sexist that it was always a man. I think he felt the same way about soldiering for the most part, as it made clear time and again in Rand's approach to dealing with everything from Deira to the Maidens, and even Lanfear. And then you have Elayne's Guards.

[Puny]

I don't understand why any of you are taking Rand's statements for fact. They were made in the second book, at which time Rand knew pretty much nothing about the DR, and he has yet to hear voices from LTT. His denial that the DR's soul has never turned to the shadow are the same as Luke's denial that Vader was his father... The DR and the Champion of the Light are the same soul. That being said doesn't mean that there aren't other souls that fight the shadow near the same level that the DR's soul fights, but is not the same soul. You guys are fighting over semantics...

 

I think I must reread that part cause I was sure that Rand had a flashback/vision of all his lifes, thus making him certain. I know that the DR soul and the CoL can are the same soul, but I also think that the are other CoL besides the DR soul. The Dragon Soul is ONE soul and always will be, but the Champion of Light title can be inherited by many souls as I see it. As stated previous the DR soul doesn´t always incarnate as the DR soul with those specific qualities.

 

I think Amaterasu or something similar like that was to be the female Dragon version.