Ishamael / Ba'alzamon question

[Shamus]

I did a brief search, but did not see the answer to this question. Sorry if it's redundant.

 

I just finished reading book 1 and I looked up Ba'alzamon on encyclopaedia-wot.org; it says he is Ishamael. Does that mean that Ba'alzamon is not the dark one? or is Ishamael another name for the dark one? Thanks for any help.

[Luckers]

Ba'alzamon is a name in the the Trolloc tongue meaning Heart of the Dark. Either they gave it to Ishamael and the Light, not knowing Ishamael was still free, got confused and took it to mean the Dark One or it was originally a name for the Dark One that Ishamael appropriated, in either case the figure we have seen in the books as Ba'alzamon is in fact the Forsaken Ishamael, not the Dark One.

[Shamus]

Thanks for the reply.

 

So, it appears that Ba'alzamon/Ishamael was impersonating the dark one. Wouldn't that generally piss the dark one off? I wonder if there are any concequences to that.

[Whitestar]

I don't think he was actually impersonating the Dark One. It's just that after being half imprissoned and half outside for so long his physical appearance changed. It's not his fault that because of it he got confused for the Dark One. Easy mistake to make thought besides, I don't think the Dark One would mind people thinking he's free and reaking havoc. Seems to me that the more people who see the Dark One as running around free, the more people who might potential switch over to the Dark Side (for lack of a better expression).

 

By the way does anyone have any theories on why Ishy's appearance changed so much over the years? Personally I think it's because his true body got a bit FUBAR'ed from being half in and half out, so he a 'little' modification was in order. Any other theories or thoughts on that?

[Luckers]

It is possible that Ba'alzamon never applied to the Dark One... that it was always referring to Ishamael, and that the Light got things confused.

 

The change to his appearence resulted from long term use of the True Power.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think he half thought he was the Dark One, or rather, that the Dark One's will had overtaken his to such an extent that they were not wholly separate, mentally. He has been consistently described as insane, and is the only person alive who has ever used the True Power consistently, and he has done it for thousands of years. There are indications that extended use of the True Power results in a certain loss of individual will, and that Ishamael, especially in the first three books, is in the advanced stages of that. In a very real sense, he may have been not much more than an extension of the Dark One, mentally.

 

With regards to the title "Ba'alzamon", it was a title first applied by Trollocs to the leader of the Shadow's forces during the Trolloc Wars. This was almost certainly Ishamael, but in subsequent years the title became associated with the Dark One, mostly because very few people had any indication that Ishamael was partially free in a cyclical pattern.

[Kaznen]

He never said he was the DO. When ever Rand called him that Ishy would laugh at him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hence my caveat in this sentence:

 

I think he half thought he was the Dark One, or rather, that the Dark One's will had overtaken his to such an extent that they were not wholly separate, mentally.

 

I added emphasis to point out the caveat. Ishamael knew or some level that he was not Shai'tan, but they had ceased to be wholly separate, in my opinion.

[Mystica]

Yeah, he never said he was the DO. It was always assumed by the members of the Light (Rand for one, Moiraine actually pointed out to him at some point not to be daft after Rand said he had slain the DO).

 

He also never said anything to the contrary, thus inhancing the fear people would have of him. He is the Betrayer of Hope, after all. (I think... that was him right? Time to read the series again)

 

 

As for the True Source, isn't Moridin using it exclusively now? Yet he doesn't have the same appearance as Ishy did.

 

Maybe it's a combination of half-in/half-out for centuries with the use of the true source.

 

(still can't figure out where in the world that True Source comes from. If it comes from the DO, it seems like a weird name to give it as I would automatically assume anything 'true' would belong to the light. Ok, I know.... I need a drink).

[Kaznen]

Mordin hasn't been using the TP for thousands of years.

[TheDiceAgain...]

It's not the True Source, it's the True Power. Probably a name given to it by the forces of Shadow to kind of match up with the users of the True Source (Saidin and Saidar).

 

As to his appearance, the flaming eyes are the result of prolonged use of the True Power, sort of a really advanced case of the saa.

[Mystica]

Aha, ok, thanks for that clarification.

 

*hands Kaznen and Dicy some brew*

[Jellybelly]

As for the True Source, isn't Moridin using it exclusively now? Yet he doesn't have the same appearance as Ishy did.

 

RJ has stated that the flaming eyes and mouth is an advanced stage of the saa. Thus, Moridin is on his way to developing the flaming body cavities right now. It probably takes a while, though.

 

And the True Power is a name used by the Forsaken, not by the Light. It is not a true name in an absolute sense. I doubt very many other than Darkfriends would use the term in anything other than an ironic fashion. I believe Lews Therin refers to it as "their so-called True Power." Compare this with how the Forsaken refer to themselves as "the Chosen."

[KaptainKaos]

Good clarification Jellybelly, but in reply to the statement from Kaznen about Ishamael not using the True Power for thousands of years, it is obvious Ishamael/Moridin has been using the True Power almost exclusively since the Age of Legends which is about three thousand years.

[Gentled Ben]

in reply to the statement from Kaznen about Ishamael not using the True Power for thousands of years, it is obvious Ishamael/Moridin has been using the True Power almost exclusively since the Age of Legends which is about three thousand years.

 

He said that by way of explaining why Moridin doesn't show the advaced stages of saa (flaming orifices) that Ishamael did.

[Jellybelly]

True enough, but he has only spent something like a hundred and twenty of those three thousand years outside of the Dark One's prison. We have every reason to believe that, as time does not pass deep within the Bore, he would not be accumulating three thousand years' worth of True Power poisoning while trapped. Only slightly above one hundred.

 

That being said, the effects of the True Power are probably irreversible, so whether or not he has refrained from using the True Power for thousands of years the damage would in all probability already be done.

[Gentled Ben]

Well, however long or often the TP must be used in order to advance from black dots to flames, it apparently takes longer than what we've seen with Moridin, and I think that's essentially what Kaznen was driving at. Namely, the Ishy soul hasn't used the TP in the Moridin body long enough for Moridin to sport the flaming orifices that we loved so well in the Ishy/Ba'alzamon body. The effects may well be cumulative and irreversible, but they're obviously not transferable from one body to the next.

[KaptainKaos]

My bad Moridin hasn't been using the True Power for thousands of years in terms of under that name and bodily form but Ishamael who is Moridin has been using the True Power since the Age of Legends the effects of using the True Power as Ben said just didn't transfer with Ishamael as his soul did into the bodily form of Moridin. This still means that even though Ishamael gets to start over in a new body, Moridin, he meaning Ishamael/Moridin has still been using the True Power since the Age of Legends. Also we can only estimate how much the saa were advanced while Ishamael was in the bore assuming he was ever in the bore. This comes from our knowledge that Balthamel and Aginor were both close enough to touching the world that they could see what was happening so how close to touching the world was Ishamael if he could go in and out (could he affect the world with his True Power from within the Bore?). Plus it isn't known for sure how long or how many times Ishamael was able to be out of the Bore at any specific time or how much he used the True Power while he was out. The only thing we know for sure is about how long Ishamael has been channeling the True Power in the form of Moridin and its effects so far on that body. Personally I don't see how the any of the Forsaken thinks the eventual effects of using the True Power are so bad. If you are going to be a bad guy why not have endless caverns of flame instead of regular mouth and eyes... seems like they would all strive to have that characteristic just to scare the hell out of people.

[Gentled Ben]

Personally I don't see how the any of the Forsaken thinks the eventual effects of using the True Power are so bad. If you are going to be a bad guy why not have endless caverns of flame instead of regular mouth and eyes... seems like they would all strive to have that characteristic just to scare the hell out of people.

 

They don't like it because it's so addictive, and there are hints that it drives one insane, or worse. They certainly keep alluding to a price that's to be paid for it's use, one that's apparently much steeper than that of Saidin/Saidar. But yeah, I thought he looked cool, too. Besides, if Lanfear hadn't been a hot kisser before, she certainly would be with the advanced stages of saa! :P