Saidin not fully cleansed

[moroten]

I ahve this theory that saidin isnt fully cleansed, due to 2 reasons.

 

1. Padan fain and the dagger. Both of them carries the taint of shadar logoth.

 

2. The wound in Rand's side also contain the taint.

 

So untill these 2 things are removed I dont think it is fully cleansed and perhaps there is a risk that the taint will be fully restored. Especially if Padan fain survives the last battle, then he can do what Mordeth once did.

[Gentled Ben]

The taint from Shadar Logoth, which is the same taint that's in Rand's side, is not the same taint that affected Saidin. The taint from Shadar Logoth was a post-Breaking, and therefore, post Saidin-taint phenomenon. Shadar Logoth, or Aridhol as it was known then, destroyed itself during the Trolloc Wars, roughly 1000 years after Saidin had been tainted.

 

The taint that is in Rand's side is the same taint as Shadar Logoth because the wound that taints him came from the dagger of Shadar Logoth. The other, older wound, came from Ishamael at Falme. Ishamael uses the True Power, not Saidin, so the old wound isn't tainted with the Saidin taint, either. Whatever it is in that old wound that keeps bothering him comes from the True Power, which can only be channelled with the DO's express consent, and which is not tainted, so far as we know.

 

One good reason to believe that Saidin is indeed completely clean is that LTT says so in Rand's head. He says that it's "Clean again. Blessedly clean," or some such. If you make me go find the quote, I'll happily do it, but it'll take me a day or two.

 

The taint that affected Saidin came from the DO during the sealing of the Bore at the end of the AOL more than 3000 years ago.

 

I'm not sure that either wound can really said to be tainted, anyway. What they share has been described as a "darkness," and the two darknesses fight one another because even though Aridhol was destroyed by an evil, it was an evil that was utterly opposed to the evil of the DO.

[Ilyena]

I havn't reread the books in quite some time, so bear with me, but wasn't their some issues with Saidar a little while after the cleansing? And if it was just the Do affecting things (like I originally believed) then how come Saidan hasn't been affected?

[moroten]

The taint from Shadar Logoth' date=' which is the same taint that's in Rand's side, is not the same taint that affected Saidin. The taint from Shadar Logoth was a post-Breaking, and therefore, post Saidin-taint phenomenon. Shadar Logoth, or Aridhol as it was known then, destroyed itself during the Trolloc Wars, roughly 1000 years after Saidin had been tainted.

 

The taint that is in Rand's side is the same taint as Shadar Logoth because the wound that taints him came from the dagger of Shadar Logoth. The other, older wound, came from Ishamael at Falme. Ishamael uses the True Power, not Saidin, so the old wound isn't tainted with the Saidin taint, either. Whatever it is in that old wound that keeps bothering him comes from the True Power, which can only be channelled with the DO's express consent, and which is not tainted, so far as we know.

 

One good reason to believe that Saidin is indeed completely clean is that LTT says so in Rand's head. He says that it's "Clean again. Blessedly clean," or some such. If you make me go find the quote, I'll happily do it, but it'll take me a day or two.

 

The taint that affected Saidin came from the DO during the sealing of the BORE at the end of the AOL more than 3000 years ago.

 

I'm not sure that either wound can really said to be tainted, anyway. What they share has been described as a "darkness," and the two darknesses fight one another because even though Aridhol was destroyed by an evil, it was an evil that was utterly opposed to the evil of the DO.[/quote']

 

So explain to me why the removal of the taint of shardar logoth remove the taint from saidin? These two are defenitly connected in some way.

 

Mat got healed and seemed healed but they wernt sure if he was FULLY healed.

This can concern LTT aswell. Saidin fells clean but a small part can still feel rotten and wont be felt until it have had time to grow sizeabal again.

[Luckers]

The taint in Shaidar Logoth is antithetical to the taint in saidin, something Rand noticed whilst fighting Sammael. When Rand squeezed the taint out of saidin he funneled it into Shaidar Logoth where it met its 'opposite' and the two mutually destroyed each other. Thats what that giant black bubble was.

 

As for Mat. It seems more likely to me that that was Suine trying to keep a leashe on Mat. If he thought he might still need healing it provided a control point for her. and since there is always a chance they screwed up she could say it in the way she did without the First Oath kicking in.

 

No, it seems incredibly unlikely that saidin has not been completely cleansed.

 

I havn't reread the books in quite some time, so bear with me, but wasn't their some issues with Saidar a little while after the cleansing? And if it was just the Do affecting things (like I originally believed) then how come Saidan hasn't been affected?

 

That has effected only tied off weaves... the keepings and the wards. We havn't seen any wards woven of saidin. It also has not effected all the wards--recall that the wards on the chain towers remain strong. It seems to be an effect of the strain the Dark One is placing on the pattern. Recall that all of these weakenings deal with decay and vermin and creatures of the Dark One getting past wards they should not. Wards such as the one on the chain towers remain strong, but the wards to keep out Rats and crows, as well as the keepings to stop decays and keep out weevils all fail.

[Gentled Ben]

So explain to me why the removal of the taint of shardar logoth remove the taint from saidin? These two are defenitly connected in some way.

That wasn't quite what happened at the end of WH. Don't feel bad; I had to re-read it myself to better grasp what had happened, and I'm a native english-speaker. :)

 

What happened when Rand cleansed Saidin at Shadar Logoth is that he made a tube of Saidar, kind-of like a funnel, if you will. He put the narrow end of the funnel (funnel isn't the best example, but it's the one I'll use) over Shadar Logoth, and poured Saidin through the "top" of it. The Saidar "funnel" compressed the Saidin (because the two halves of the power repel each other), squeezed it, that is, to a point of separating the taint from it. It basically wrang the taint out of it like wringing out a damp cloth. The taint from saidin went into the ruined city of Shadar Logoth. He used Shadar Logoth a lot like you would use a pan to catch the old oil in your car during an oil change.

 

Eventually, the taint either became compressed to the point of critical mass and exploded in something of a Big Bang, or it reacted with the evil of Shadar Logoth, or both, but the end result was that of the taint from Saidin and Shadar Logoth both being vaporized. They were both destroyed, the taint on Saidin, and the city of Shadar Logoth, but he never cleansed Shadar Logoth of the evil that had destroyed it 2000 years ago, per se, other than by wiping the place off the face of the Earth. Destroying Shadar Logoth wasn't what he was trying to do; it just occured as a consequence of his actions. He used it like a toxic waste dump. That was the only reason he chose Shadar Logoth--he thought it would be a good place to dump all of the poison corrupting Saidin. Does that make sense?

 

Edit: Ah, I see that Luckers and I were writing our responses at the same time. I didn't see his post until I entered mine. What he says makes sense as to why Rand chose Shadar Logoth. Yay! I learned something. :)

[TheDiceAgain...]

A couple of holes I'll try and fill before anyone asks:

 

Q) If Shadar Logoth is gone, why does Rand's second wound still not heal?

 

A) Becuase Padan Fain is still alive and the dagger still exists. RJ said, in his blog I believe, that as long as a single pebble from the place formerly known as Aridhol exists, the taint from that place will remain. Cadsuane even mentions that Damer Flinn is surprised that it is still there after the cleansing. So until Fain is dead and the dagger destroyed, Rand's second wound will never heal.

 

Q) If the taint on Saidin is gone why does Rand's first wound still pain him?

 

A) I'll agree with Gentled Ben on this one with a couple of additions. I believe the taint on Saidin was the True Power, or at least a residue of it. My theory goes something like this; the Dark One struck back at the Hundred Companions using his power source (The True Power) because "he" cannot touch the True Source. Since the Hundred Companions were all male, only Saidin was being used at the time and as a result, there was a lack of balance and only it was tainted. If the Female Aes Sedai of the "Fateful Concord" were part of the attack, Saidin would not have been tainted because again, we know from multiple sources that the greatest accomplishments with the One Power required both Saidin and Saidar. If Saidar were used in the weave to seal the DO, it probably would have succeeded fully and there would be no taint.

We also know through multiple PoV's that the True Power causes madness even with direct permission of the DO. I believe that because the True Power and the True Source are anethema to each other, the True Power in the DO's counterstrike reacted like oil poured into water, it floated on top and caused an "oil slick", if you will. The reason that Rand's wound still pains him even though the taint itself is gone is that he has the connection to the only living True Power user in the world, Moidin/Ishy. Once the connection is broken, or Moridin/Ishy is really dead, the wound will finally heal. Or at least that's my theory...

 

Dice

[Luckers]

The taint on saidin is completely different in terms of description, use and effect. The True Power feels good, it becomes addictive. The Taint feels bad, it is repulsive. The True Power can be drawn and channeled. The Taint... for lack of anything else, simply cannot be. All it does is exist, it doesn't have any effect except its inherent nature. It can be woven to cause something. And finally the Taint with long term use drives a person insane, and causes their body to rot, whilst the True Power causes addiction, and damage to the eyes, potentially it might cause madness, though in truth Ishy's madness may be completely unconnected It is certainly not an insanity that is comprable to that caused by the Taint.

 

The Taint, also, is drawn away from the Forsaken as well, indicating that were they to touch it it would have the same effect on them as it does on everyone else. The True Power requires the Dark Ones permission, but it is not, in and of itself, dangerous in that sense to the channeler.

 

In conclusion, i dont see the taint and the true power being the same thing.

[moroten]

So explain to me why the removal of the taint of shardar logoth remove the taint from saidin? These two are defenitly connected in some way.

That wasn't quite what happened at the end of WH. Don't feel bad; I had to re-read it myself to better grasp what had happened' date=' and I'm a native english-speaker. :)

 

What happened when Rand cleansed Saidin at Shadar Logoth is that he made a tube of Saidar, kind-of like a funnel, if you will. He put the narrow end of the funnel (funnel isn't the best example, but it's the one I'll use) over Shadar Logoth, and poured Saidin through the "top" of it. The Saidar "funnel" compressed the Saidin (because the two halves of the power repel each other), squeezed it, that is, to a point of separating the taint from it. It basically wrang the taint out of it like wringing out a damp cloth. The taint from saidin went into the ruined city of Shadar Logoth. He used Shadar Logoth a lot like you would use a pan to catch the old oil in your car during an oil change.

 

Eventually, the taint either became compressed to the point of critical mass and exploded in something of a Big Bang, or it reacted with the evil of Shadar Logoth, or both, but the end result was that of the taint from Saidin and Shadar Logoth both being vaporized. They were both destroyed, the taint on Saidin, and the city of Shadar Logoth, but he never cleansed Shadar Logoth of the evil that had destroyed it 2000 years ago, per se, other than by wiping the place off the face of the Earth. Destroying Shadar Logoth wasn't what he was trying to do; it just occured as a consequence of his actions. He used it like a toxic waste dump. That was the only reason he chose Shadar Logoth--he thought it would be a good place to dump all of the poison corrupting Saidin. Does that make sense?

 

Edit: Ah, I see that Luckers and I were writing our responses at the same time. I didn't see his post until I entered mine. What he says makes sense as to why Rand chose Shadar Logoth. Yay! I learned something. :)[/quote']

 

Well this was a really good explanation, thanks.

[Gentled Ben]

You're welcome! This morning, however, while re-reading that chapter, I noticed that the taint imploded rather than exploded. :oops: Like I said earlier though, I found the taint-cleansing process to be a bit confusing, myself.

[Trib4l]

It's better that it imploded, otherwise we would have wound up with another six chapters in WH of people taking simultaneous baths to wash of the Aridhol-Taint goo.

[Gentled Ben]

Oh, and undoubtably with the introduction of seven or eight new characters! :P

[emilyisme]

The taint on saidin is completely different in terms of description, use and effect. The True Power feels good, it becomes addictive. The Taint feels bad, it is repulsive. The True Power can be drawn and channeled. The Taint... for lack of anything else, simply cannot be. All it does is exist, it doesn't have any effect except its inherent nature. It can be woven to cause something. And finally the Taint with long term use drives a person insane, and causes their body to rot, whilst the True Power causes addiction, and damage to the eyes, potentially it might cause madness, though in truth Ishy's madness may be completely unconnected It is certainly not an insanity that is comprable to that caused by the Taint.

 

The Taint, also, is drawn away from the Forsaken as well, indicating that were they to touch it it would have the same effect on them as it does on everyone else. The True Power requires the Dark Ones permission, but it is not, in and of itself, dangerous in that sense to the channeler.

 

In conclusion, i dont see the taint and the true power being the same thing.

 

It might be that the Taint behaves differently to the True Source because the Dark One hasn't given permission to use it. This could explain the repulsive feeling of the Taint while letting it still be the True Source. Not saying this is what i really think (i'm not one to commit to opinions that i'm not sure are right), i just thought of it.

[Luckers]

No, the Forsaken had permission to use it, and it was still drawn away from them. Concider Sammael's thoughts on it, how the Dark Ones protection acted like a shield against a storm of filth.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The taint on saidin and the True Power are inherently different, because the True Power existed in a time when the taint did not (ie during the Age of Legends/War of the Power). Lews Therin knew about it from before he went insane, and passed that knowledge onto Rand, either consciously or more likely, subconsciously. So, since the True Power pre-dates the taint, they are not the same.

 

 

The taint may be an effect of the True Power on saidin, because the True Power is described as being drawn directly from the Dark One, and it was the Dark One whose counterstroke caused the taint. But they are not one and the same.

[Gentled Ben]

So, since the True Power pre-dates the taint, they are not the same.

I agree that they're not the same, but I don't follow your reasoning. If, for example, I had some sugar in my cupboard before you filled your gas tank, and then, I spiked the tank with sugar, thereby tainting the gasoline in it and ruining the engine, the gas would still be tainted with sugar. The fact that the sugar existed before the gas was tainted with it would have no bearing on the fact that the gas is, indeed, tainted by the sugar. You wouldn't think, "Since the sugar existed in Gentled Ben's cupboard before I bought that tank of gas, my gasoline couldn't possibly be tainted by Gentled Ben's sugar. They (Gentled Ben's sugar and whatever ruined the gas in my tank) are therefore inherently different."

[TheDiceAgain...]

If anything, the fact that the True Power pre-dates the taint argues that there at least might be a connecton between the two. By definition, something must exist before it used to foul something else (see Gentled Ben's sugar and gas analogy).

 

I would also disagree that just because it does not feel the same, doesn't meant that the taint automatically has nothing to do with the True Power. We know that the True Power has poth physical and mental effects upon those that use it, even when they have the expressed permission of the Dark One (the saa and eventually flaming mouth and eyes, increasing insanity). Even Moridin admits there is a price, though he never says exactly what it is and doesn't much care anyway. A possible reason that the TP is more adictive and is accompanied by a sense of euphoria is that the DO wants it that way, to mask all of the nasty things that it is doing to the user. Alot like cocaine, crack, heroine (pick your drug of choice)....

 

I'm not saying that I'm completely right here, but it seems to make sense. Imagine if there were a version of cocaine or crack that was manipulated in some way to remove the euphoria. All you are left with are the nasty side effects. That's kind of what I believe the taint to be, a distillation of the essence of the Dark One. That's one reason why I used the word residue in my post. No one is trying to channel the taint, therefore the "expressed permission" stipulation doesn't really apply. Rather, they are trying to fight their way through it to get to the pure Saidin underneath and ebing poisoned by the essence of the Dark One and his power in the process.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The taint may be an effect of the True Power on saidin, because the True Power is described as being drawn directly from the Dark One, and it was the Dark One whose counterstroke caused the taint. But they are not one and the same.

 

I have just quoted myself in order to show you that I already said what you have just said. I said the True Power and the taint were not the same thing, but I also said (see above) that the True Power could be the cause of the taint. Being the cause of something, and actually being that thing, are two different states.

 

The taint is not the True Power.

The True Power could have caused the taint, however.

 

In fact, since the True Power is power drawn dirstly from the Dark One, not from some type of "Source", it could be said that anything the Dark One does is done with the True Power. In that sense, the taint has to have been caused by the True Power, because the Dark One caused it.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Well alright then, I guess we are agreed. It's actually somewhat disappointing. I like being able to get up on my high horse and play the pedantic teacher to all of you arrogant young pups.... :lol: :shock: :lol:

[RobertAlexWillis]

Out of curiousity, how old do you think I am?

[TheDiceAgain...]

I couldn't rightly say, nor was I really trying to. I was being sarcastic and attempting to make a joke. As to real age, I know that Luckers is quite a bit younger than I am, and I believe Ben is as well. As a point of reference, I'm 32...

[RobertAlexWillis]

:lol: ... you old fart. I'm 30.

[Gentled Ben]

I got ten years on ya, Dice; I was born in '64, but I'm glad that my maturity level comes through in my posts. :P

[TheDiceAgain...]

Alright so now I've got egg on my face, but that's okay, I still love to play the arrogant, pedantic, holier-than-thou type. So there! :P :D

[Thor]

I am still worried that the taint in the Ways might flow back into Saidin.