From the Dark to the Light

[Hemis AlRhoid]

I think Lanfear is being underestimated. We've seen her darker nature. She can be very viscous. She has stood before the Dark One and has been resurrected by it. Something it would not do if it didn't think she was dedicated. Her plea to Rand smells of a trap. The Shadow has remarked on his weakness towards women several times, I'm guessing this is their ploy to exploit it.

 

I really don't see any of the Forsaken having a reversal of their beliefs. As to which one would be likely to betray the Shadow, that would be Moghedien. She would do anything for her own survival.

[John E. Kelley]

I have to be honest, if any of them revert, I would think it would be Moridin for the following reason:

 

Of all of the Forsaken, Moridin seems to be the only one that didn't turn due to a desire for power / immortality.

As a philosopher / deep thinker, it seems he turned because of despair or realization that all of this confict was entirely futile. If the Wheel is totally cicular, and everything will "come back around", I think he finally realized that the victory of the Light or the Dark is entirely temporary. Neither the Creator nor the DO can triumph for all time. And a temporary victory will only last for an Age or two, never for all time. So what could possibly be the point in a victory when you know that you will have to fight this exact same battle over and over again. Ishamael / Moridin it seems isn't really worried about whether one side triumphs over the other, he just appears to want it all to END. The futility of the entire struggle is just a waste of time to him imo. But if Rand can find an end to this cosmic battle once and for all, I think that he would be the first to sign on. Ishy has never seemed to me to be a 100% EVIL player in this saga to me. He has always seemed to be more of a fatalist to me, and it looks like he always just wanted an end to this endless struggle. Again, the references to the fact that everyone has always made a big deal about the fact that he has always had such "deep thoughts" and that he has always been such a philosopher and thinker leads me to believe that if someone could bring a resolution to this, that he would work towards that end, no matter who brought it about.

 

To defend that theory, I would like to point out that regardless of whether Rand is LTT or not, when the series began, Rand was still a very weak and an untutored channeler, and if logic is any indication, Ishy should have been able to absolutely CRUSH him in any kind of a conflict, at the very least until Rand began his study under Asmo. Even if Rand was the Creators champion, it is absolutely illogical to believe that he could best the DO's champion unless Ishy harbored a deep belief that maybe, just maybe, he could finally reach the resolution he was so deeply longing for. Ishy was such a powerful channeler that there was no way (in a realistic situation) that Rand could defeat him. Not a chance. And I realize that in a fictional story that we are intended to suspend disbelief, but c'mon, there is only so much we can be expected to overlook. Sure, Rand had Callendor in the last encounter between them, but there is no way that Ishy wasn't aware of the powers Rand possesed, nor the power of Prophecy Rand was wielding at that particular moment. He knew what he was getting himself into, he knew the consequences, and he entered that fight anyways. Ishy may be many, many things, insane among them, but he has never, ever been stupid. I believe he entered that fight knowing that there was a good chance that he may be killed, but I also think he entered it with a strong sense of hope, knowing that his ultimate desire may be fulfilled. Whether he himself (as the Dark Ones champion) or Rand won in Tear, he just wanted it over.

 

Also backing this idea up, when Rand and Moridin met in the dream in tGS, Moridin seemed to hesitate, just slightly, when Rand told him that his ultimate plan was to slay Shai'tan, to slay the DO. He eventually told him that he couldn't comprehend the "stupidity of his statement", but the hesitation was still there, as if he was actually considering the possibility. And also, when Dem and the Asha'men were commanded to "kill him", Ishydin was much less interested in killing Rand, only that "all in his possesion be brought to me." Lanfear had already told Rand that with the CK, that the DO and the Creator both could be destroyed. What else would Ishy want if that were true?

 

Now, I really don't think that Ishy will be the one to defect, I really don't, only if beacause in fantasy literature, there is usually (but not always) an ultimate battle between the Dark and the Light. So far in the WoT, Ishydin and Rand are the respective parts of what is equated with good vs. evil. But as I've said, I don't consider Isydin evil, only without hope. Maybe Rand convinces him that there is a possibilty of ending everything without the DO winning. Maybe not. I do believe that Fain could easily fill the void if Ishydin sees the light. We've all seen redemption as a main theme with regards to the characters in Randland, so who knows?

 

Still, that being said, I still see a Rand vs. Ishydin plot as unavoidable. But I still have to say, I don't think that Ishy is a truly evil figure, only one that has lost hope, given in to despair, is totally weary of the eternal fight, and the most likely to see the error of his ways. Especially if Rand can show him that he has a solution to finally end it all. And if Rand can end this eternal fight, whether the Creator or the DO wins, I think that Ishydin will back whichever solution brings this about. It just seems to me as if his character is tired more than anything else.

[Eichhörnchen]

who do you think is most likely to turn from the dark side to the light? Moridin, Cyndane (Lanfear), Graendal, or none? State why you think so since there is some evidence (for some more than others) for at least one of the above people.

 

I tremble with rage at the absence of Demandreds name!!!!!!!

 

Rand: *captures Demandred* Eyyyy old buddy! So remind me, why did you go Dark again?

Demandred: Because I was second to you, and I was born a day after you.

Rand: Interesting. You are second to Ishamael, and you were re-inserted after he was.

Demandred: I couldnt help him coming back first!

Rand: You couldnt help being born after me either.

Demandred: ... I see.

Rand: Seriously, your reasons for turning sound really wrong. Have you ever considered the possibility that you were 13x13ed?

Demandred: Never!

Rand: So if my colleague here had figured out an anti-13x13 weave it would have no affect on you, right? Then surely you would sit there and take the weave like a man.

Demandred: Yeah ok theres no need, I been an idiot. Moridin has this fortress in the Blight and is stealing your Ashaman... by 13x13... Damn I been an idiot!

 

Hah! I love this.

 

I actually think Moridin is a likely contender though. I seem to recall that Brandon intimated that Demandred would be playing a pretty big role, and what's bigger than Nae'blis after Moridin has gone through his own Veins of Gold moment?

 

Meh. Moridin turning good is more wishful thinking though. Way too much True Power usage, methinks. But it'd be pretty awesome. He may go all Darth Vaderish and, whilst dying, reveal to Rand something very crucial for sealing the Dark One, I guess.

 

 

Moridin is however the only Forsaken who is arguably not evil in the finer sense of the word. Elan Tedronai/Ishamael/Moridin was an ideologue who was among the first to swear to the "Great Lord" purely out of philosophical convictions. His nihilism and disgust at the eternal fruitless repetition of reality lead him to swear to the only force capable of ending the circular nature of time. I suppose a perverted "give me liberty or death" attitude coupled with a sober realization that from a sheer reasonable approach the DO would prevail in the end.

 

To elaborate on my "not evil," statement. He didn't join out of greed, hate or other base negative reasons. Nor so far as we could read did he indulge in needless cruelties or savor in suffering/torment as many other Forsaken were privy to.

[noynaert@gmail.com]

There is one thing distinguishes Moridin from most other characters. He understands that the DO's plan is destroy everything. He knows that the promise of immortality is bogus. He knows all that the best that he can hope for is to rule for a short time before everything ends. I don't recall any of the other Forsaken recognizing it. I'm not sure if major darkfriends or Forsaken will turn to the light, but I would think that recognizing that all is lost and that they have been sold a bill of goods would be one reason for turning coat.

[MarkDiLillo]

I just realized that we already know that there is a high probability that Moridin will turn to the light in some form. The two becoming one pretty much assures this. Unless we completely misinterpret how this prophecy plays out, it is almost guaranteed that Moridin and Rand somehow merge. They are either going to merge into nothing and end their existence, merge into something evil, or merge into something good. The merge into nothing has some possibility, but the merge into evil has a low probability of occuring. IMO, the highest probability is that they will merge into something good...lending credence that Moridin is a past champion of the light that was turned to the shadow. Or perhaps, he is a shadow of Rand himself somehow.

 

Technically, when they merge...assuming the outcome is a good being....Moridin will have gone to the light.

 

And then there is the whole Lanfear thing which I think is pretty obvious. That dream being some kind of trap just doesn't fit with anything. Furthermore, it is pretty absurd for the shadow to think that Rand will show any sort of loyalty towards Mierin.

[Eichhörnchen]

I just realized that we already know that there is a high probability that Moridin will turn to the light in some form. The two becoming one pretty much assures this. Unless we completely misinterpret how this prophecy plays out, it is almost guaranteed that Moridin and Rand somehow merge. They are either going to merge into nothing and end their existence, merge into something evil, or merge into something good. The merge into nothing has some possibility, but the merge into evil has a low probability of occuring. IMO, the highest probability is that they will merge into something good...lending credence that Moridin is a past champion of the light that was turned to the shadow. Or perhaps, he is a shadow of Rand himself somehow.

 

Technically, when they merge...assuming the outcome is a good being....Moridin will have gone to the light.

 

And then there is the whole Lanfear thing which I think is pretty obvious. That dream being some kind of trap just doesn't fit with anything. Furthermore, it is pretty absurd for the shadow to think that Rand will show any sort of loyalty towards Mierin.

 

 

Interesting phrasing with always stating "come to the light." From what I understand of Ishamael his views on good and evil are their subjective and arbitrary nature, there is no good or evil no light or dark. There is only existentialism and emptiness, however the concept of the wheel makes a mockery of this through it's forced servitude of repetition. Hence his opposition to anything that promotes the constant continuation, whether it is through the essence behind the bore or the essence supposedly behind the pattern.

 

He doesn't seem to be a conflicted figure caught between good and evil. For him good or evil hold no meaning and are shallow words behind an empty facade. Even moreso because due to constant rebirth through the nature of the wheel and pattern does a concept such as death even hold any meaning? If you murder someone, they're not dead. They're in stasis until they're brought back into existence.

 

Even if Ishamael/Moridin/Elan were to put his lot in with Rand, I doubt one could argue that he converted to the light or even sought redemption as so much as he finally sought the final answer to the question that lead him down the path he embarked on so many ages ago. It is apparent enough throughout the book that for someone who supposedly is fighting for a specific side, Elan/Ishamael/Moridin does seem to follow a rather strange path.

[MarkDiLillo]

I just realized that we already know that there is a high probability that Moridin will turn to the light in some form. The two becoming one pretty much assures this. Unless we completely misinterpret how this prophecy plays out, it is almost guaranteed that Moridin and Rand somehow merge. They are either going to merge into nothing and end their existence, merge into something evil, or merge into something good. The merge into nothing has some possibility, but the merge into evil has a low probability of occuring. IMO, the highest probability is that they will merge into something good...lending credence that Moridin is a past champion of the light that was turned to the shadow. Or perhaps, he is a shadow of Rand himself somehow.

 

Technically, when they merge...assuming the outcome is a good being....Moridin will have gone to the light.

 

And then there is the whole Lanfear thing which I think is pretty obvious. That dream being some kind of trap just doesn't fit with anything. Furthermore, it is pretty absurd for the shadow to think that Rand will show any sort of loyalty towards Mierin.

 

 

Interesting phrasing with always stating "come to the light." From what I understand of Ishamael his views on good and evil are their subjective and arbitrary nature, there is no good or evil no light or dark. There is only existentialism and emptiness, however the concept of the wheel makes a mockery of this through it's forced servitude of repetition. Hence his opposition to anything that promotes the constant continuation, whether it is through the essence behind the bore or the essence supposedly behind the pattern.

 

He doesn't seem to be a conflicted figure caught between good and evil. For him good or evil hold no meaning and are shallow words behind an empty facade. Even moreso because due to constant rebirth through the nature of the wheel and pattern does a concept such as death even hold any meaning? If you murder someone, they're not dead. They're in stasis until they're brought back into existence.

 

Even if Ishamael/Moridin/Elan were to put his lot in with Rand, I doubt one could argue that he converted to the light or even sought redemption as so much as he finally sought the final answer to the question that lead him down the path he embarked on so many ages ago. It is apparent enough throughout the book that for someone who supposedly is fighting for a specific side, Elan/Ishamael/Moridin does seem to follow a rather strange path.

 

I agree entirely, but there is one part where we see hints otherwise. When Graendal is meeting with him she specifically states that he remembers the pain his turning to the shadow cost him and it implies that he was once very much like Rand in terms of virtues.

[WhiskyJack]

Except for Moridin, all other turned to darkness for power and immortality. You cannot "save" these people or trust them.

[chuckievi]

Cyndane is going to have a hard time turning back to the light with the mind trap owning her presently. If somehow Rand got his hand (pun intended) on it, then maybe she could turn. Otherwise Moridin owns her in more way than one.