multiple Dreamers among the Forsaken

[herid]

BS fired this zinger earlier today on twitter:

BrandSanderson

This might be old news, but people keep asking me about it. Yes there ARE Dreamers among the Forsaken. Male and female. #wotrr

 

Southpaw2014

@BrandSanderson one male AND one female Forsaken are dreamers?

 

BrandSanderson

@Southpaw2014 There are multiple dreamers. At least one male and at least one female.

I tried asking him if he really meant Dreamers and not dreamwalkers but he didn't respond. There was a lot of discussion about Ishy possibly being a Dreamer. He certainly seems to know things about the future. But has there been any evidence of any other Forsaken having prophetic Dreams? I can't think of a single one.

[mb]

3 of the 13 seem to be at least Dream Walkers. Ishamael/Moridin, Lanfear/Cyndane, Moghedien.

 

Though the books do not show any of them having prophetic dreams, each 3 are probably also Dreamers.

[herid]

3 of the 13 seem to be at least Dream Walkers. Ishamael/Moridin, Lanfear/Cyndane, Moghedien.

 

Though the books do not show any of them having prophetic dreams, each 3 are probably also Dreamers.

I agree that they are likely dreamwalkers but I haven't seen any evidence that either Lanfear or Moggy are Dreamers. At least I can't think of anything pointing to that.

[Finnssss22]

Makes sense, Obviously Ishy is the male and cancels my thoughts of him only having the talent of Foretelling. Although it doesn't rule out that he has both either.

 

Lanfear seems the first choice for the female. Moggy could be too but even in her PoV's, she only believes that she is better in TAR than Lanfear. She mentions nothing about actual dreams.

[Terez]

Anaiya mentioned that Dreaming and Foretelling were linked and that maybe Egwene would have the Foretelling, too, but not sure if that was reality or legend. I'm not so sure that Moghedien's lack of thought about Dreams is relevant. It's hard to see how she could compare their talents in that area anyway.

[Finnssss22]

Anaiya mentioned that Dreaming and Foretelling were linked and that maybe Egwene would have the Foretelling, too, but not sure if that was reality or legend. I'm not so sure that Moghedien's lack of thought about Dreams is relevant. It's hard to see how she could compare their talents in that area anyway.

 

We've had enough Moggy PoV's with no mention of dreams to assume she doesn't have the talent.

Compare that to Lanfear who mentions it numerous times.

If there's one thing the Forsaken PoV's have been good for, it's been them telling themselves and bragging to anyone else that will listen what their strengths and talents are.

If Moggy was strong in the dream, she WOULD of told us heh.

 

The only thing Moggy has said is about her belief that she can do things in TAR than Lanfear can only dream of.

 

Good point on Anaiya and makes sense.

I definitely believe Ishy can foretell and that book is his.

[Terez]

Anaiya mentioned that Dreaming and Foretelling were linked and that maybe Egwene would have the Foretelling, too, but not sure if that was reality or legend. I'm not so sure that Moghedien's lack of thought about Dreams is relevant. It's hard to see how she could compare their talents in that area anyway.

 

We've had enough Moggy PoV's with no mention of dreams to assume she doesn't have the talent.

I disagree. None of them - not Moghedien, not Lanfear, not Moridin - ever mention it in POV, and we've had nearly as much POV time from Moridin as from Moghedien. None of them had any particular reason to think about it.

 

People argued Sheriam wasn't Black Ajah with the same reasoning, by the way.

[KefkaPalazzo]

Demandred is a dreamwalker, too. He had a short (5 or 6 sentence) POV that showed that he was spying on Elayne in TAR. It was in book 5 or 6, IIRC.

[Terez]

There's a difference between Dreaming and Dreamwalking. All of the Forsaken can do the latter.

[Finnssss22]

Anaiya mentioned that Dreaming and Foretelling were linked and that maybe Egwene would have the Foretelling, too, but not sure if that was reality or legend. I'm not so sure that Moghedien's lack of thought about Dreams is relevant. It's hard to see how she could compare their talents in that area anyway.

 

We've had enough Moggy PoV's with no mention of dreams to assume she doesn't have the talent.

I disagree. None of them - not Moghedien, not Lanfear, not Moridin - ever mention it in POV, and we've had nearly as much POV time from Moridin as from Moghedien. None of them had any particular reason to think about it.

 

People argued Sheriam wasn't Black Ajah with the same reasoning, by the way.

 

 

Lanfear claims Dreams as hers, right to Moridin's face.

She enters not only Rand's but also Perrin's dreams.

 

When has Moggy ever done anything in someone else's dreams or even hinted at doing it.

 

The Sheriam argument is moot, her PoV's were always open to interpretation and wasn't overly proud of her decision to go to the Shadow, she would never brag about it, even to herself. Her regret is plain at the end.

Moggy has no such qualms and is proud of everything, "bragging" about anything she can do as often as possible to others as well to herself.

No, if she was a Dreamer, we would of known imo.

[mb]

Actually, just the 3 seem able to enter without channeling. The others I take need to do a Gateway to enter Telaranrhiod.

[Terez]

There is a difference between being a prophetic Dreamer and being able to access someone's dreams. Two totally different things. Even Aran'gar can do the latter, and she sucks at it pretty badly.

 

Again, no reason at all for Moghedien to reveal in her thoughts that she is a Dreamer. It hasn't been relevant to anything in her POVs so far.

[Finnssss22]

There is a difference between being a prophetic Dreamer and being able to access someone's dreams. Two totally different things. Even Aran'gar can do the latter, and she sucks at it pretty badly.

 

Again, no reason at all for Moghedien to reveal in her thoughts that she is a Dreamer. It hasn't been relevant to anything in her POVs so far.

 

 

No reason for Moggy to reveal she can do things in TAR that Lanfear can only dream of either but she did.

 

Fair enough though but what about Lanfear making it into Rand's heavily warded dreams at the end of ToM?

You believe that was with Moridin's help then?

[xiophen]

Demandred is a dreamwalker, too. He had a short (5 or 6 sentence) POV that showed that he was spying on Elayne in TAR. It was in book 5 or 6, IIRC.

 

His POV blurb specifically states he opened a gateway to normal space

[Terez]

Fair enough though but what about Lanfear making it into Rand's heavily warded dreams at the end of ToM?

You believe that was with Moridin's help then?

Indeed - or maybe not even her at all. It seems that Moridin was unaware that he could access Rand's dreams through the link until Rand accessed his in TGS. And then he started planning, of course.

[Finnssss22]

Fair enough though but what about Lanfear making it into Rand's heavily warded dreams at the end of ToM?

You believe that was with Moridin's help then?

Indeed - or maybe not even her at all. It seems that Moridin was unaware that he could access Rand's dreams through the link until Rand accessed his in TGS. And then he started planning, of course.

 

 

Perhaps but it still doesn't get us any closer to who the female forsaken Dreamer is.

 

You seem to disagree with it being Lanfear so are we to assume you believe it to be Moggy then or one that is already dead?

(Graendal seems highly unlikely.)

[Terez]

As I said before, I think Ishamael/Moridin, Cyndane/Lanfear, and Moghedien are the best bets.

 

Edit: I thought I said it before, but apparently I only did on Twitter and Facebook. IMO all three are likely based on Brandon's comment. He certainly doesn't restrict the number of them, so I don't see any reason to choose between Moghedien and Lanfear.

[Finnssss22]

As I said before, I think Ishamael/Moridin, Cyndane/Lanfear, and Moghedien are the best bets.

 

Edit: I thought I said it before, but apparently I only did on Twitter and Facebook. IMO all three are likely based on Brandon's comment. He certainly doesn't restrict the number of them, so I don't see any reason to choose between Moghedien and Lanfear.

 

That's fair and he also doesn't necessarily say they all still live either.

[Terez]

The word 'are' seems to imply they still live. And knowing that those three are the most likely Dreamers, then that makes sense.

[Cybertrolloc]

Isn't because he's currently rereading the series.

 

Which kinda sucks, because my only other candidate not mentioned so far is Be'lal per Alviarian, who might be dead for Brandon by now :)

 

Ishy and Lanfear are good bets per the early series. Offhand, not much else comes to mind.

 

Dreaming: what current Aes Sedai call things TaR/dream related. Dreamwalking: what Aiel call same, points for being a cooler name. Have the forsaken used another term (can't recall one offhand)?

[Thorgan]

The only thing Moggy has said is about her belief that she can do things in TAR than Lanfear can only dream of.

Is it really written like that?

 

Because that is very ironic since all they are doing is pretty much dreaming.

 

(Not really relevant to discussion)

[icspots]

Not that this isn't what the site is for, but anything we come up with is just a guess. We have Perrin's observations about the forsaken meeting in TAR on the ways-esk bridges and at that point we see Ishy, Bel'al and Rahvin for the men. Later we see Asmodeon with Lanfear while she's playing with Rand, and even later we see Demandred spying on Elayne. Demandred is the only one we see using a gateway to enter/leave TAR, any of the others could have just slept their way in. We also have the conference that Brigitte takes Perrin to, but I can't remember who was at that one..... have we ever seen Sammael in TAR?

 

Oh on an aside I also feel like Lanfear is the female dreamer but I bring up an interesting point from the books. At one point (I think it's in TDR) when Perrin's in TAR he sees an archway leading into a room with white hangings and the most beautiful woman ever through the arch who looks surprised to see him. This is obviously Lanfear, though when she notices him the door inside the arch turns sideways and winks out like a gateway. Why would Lanfear need to use a gateway to enter TAR? Does she just do it so she's more powerful there (since from Moggy's POV you're more powerful in the flesh)?

[Sharaman]

There aren't too many Chosen alive are there? Just Moridin, Demandred, Cyndane, Moggy, Graendal, Mesaana. If at least one of each gender is a Dreamer, Moridin looks more likely than Demandred and Cyndane/ Moggy look more likely than Graendal.

OTOH if Brandon means the original 13, the choices widen quite a lot.

[Nightstrike]

Oh on an aside I also feel like Lanfear is the female dreamer but I bring up an interesting point from the books. At one point (I think it's in TDR) when Perrin's in TAR he sees an archway leading into a room with white hangings and the most beautiful woman ever through the arch who looks surprised to see him. This is obviously Lanfear, though when she notices him the door inside the arch turns sideways and winks out like a gateway. Why would Lanfear need to use a gateway to enter TAR? Does she just do it so she's more powerful there (since from Moggy's POV you're more powerful in the flesh)?

That's a possible reason. Plus, you probably can't always be asleep when you need to enter.

[Terez]

Again people, there is a difference between Dreaming and Dreamwalking. All of the Forsaken can enter Tel'aran'rhiod - Demandred notes in LOC that anyone who can channel can be trained to do this and weaned off the ter'angreal. Probably only the most Talented of them - Moghedien, Lanfear, and Ishamael - actually have prophetic dreams.