The Black Tower Dreamspike

[username13]

....so.... we're not going with the standard idea that since Egwenes AS's aren't allowed into BT they're simply not within the range of the DS?

[Sharaman]

Nyn Travels in/ out to claim Lan's Bond at a time when the DSpike in BT is already in use.

I don't believe that's true. According to one timeline I've seen she Traveled there a day before Pevara finds out that she can no longer Travel out of it (which is the day the guards have been put on post at the perimeter). Perrin's trial occurs soon after, and only then does he remove the DM that was keeping him in place (until then Grady couldn't have tried to Travel back home). I'm not sure if we have concrete evidence on when Rand finds out it's in place.

 

It can be placed quite easily from internal evidence in the intersection of ToM narratives, using VoG as a reference point.

The book isn't nearby, so what follows is an approximation.

First, Moridin tells Graendal, that the other D-Spike "is being put to good use" and that, we know is pre-VoG because of Perrin's Timeline. So, the BT DS usage was implemented before he gave G the second D-Spike. (We also know this anyhow from the fact that we've been told by the author that the BT timeline is supposed to behind the rest.) Second, we know that the BT D-Spike is still in use around the time Rand arrives at FoM, which is VoG + almost a month.

So the BT has been cut off from well before VoG.

 

Nyn Travels to the camp outside BT, post VoG. Actually around VoG plus 4 or 5 days. Rand returns from DM, spends one-two days in Tear, is told by Nyn that's she's been called to the WT, etc. Nyn is tested, goes and claims Lan's bond on the same night.

 

Perrin's timeline can be fixed because we know when he was on DM at VoG; we know when he has the trial, returns to his camp, when he breaks the D-Spike, and moves to Caemlyn, etc.

From Perrin's Timeline,we know Grady attempts to go to the BT and can't.

 

Unless you assume that Nyn got to the camp, during some short time-interval when for whatever reason, coincidentally, the D-Spike was deactivated, she was definitely there during the period when the BT D-Spike is active.

 

 

Taim may have had the DS already but there is nothing showing it was active before the walls were completed.

What would be the point otherwise?

We are told the walls are completed and traveling has been cut off at the same time. It was not a coincidence.

Moridin says "It is being put to good use" not "will be put to good use". That's well before VoG.

[yoniy0]

Moridin says "It is being put to good use" not "will be put to good use". That's well before VoG.

He does at that, but I don't agree with your interpretation of what it means. The plans were already in place to use it, and perhaps it was already in Taim's hands as well, but it doesn't mean that the time was right to activate it just yet.

 

By the way, @Finnssss (I think it was you, but perhaps it was @herid?), the wall around the BT's perimeter wasn't finished when Taim assigned men to it. It's the Ashaman on call that make it impregnable, not the stones. And that was the time he activated the DS and started converting folks at a high rate, I think; it all fits together.

[Thor]

What I don't get is the practicality of having a dreamspike at the BT. Is it to stop an attack? Or just to stop people escaping?

 

But neither of those make sense. People can still attack it by traveling to just outside the dreamspike, and it's kind of a waste to use something like the dreamspike to keep those aes sedai and ashaman in.

[Finnssss22]

Moridin says "It is being put to good use" not "will be put to good use". That's well before VoG.

He does at that, but I don't agree with your interpretation of what it means. The plans were already in place to use it, and perhaps it was already in Taim's hands as well, but it doesn't mean that the time was right to activate it just yet.

 

By the way, @Finnssss (I think it was you, but perhaps it was @herid?), the wall around the BT's perimeter wasn't finished when Taim assigned men to it. It's the Ashaman on call that make it impregnable, not the stones. And that was the time he activated the DS and started converting folks at a high rate, I think; it all fits together.

 

Yep, you're right, the wall still isn't finished but I'm not sure the guard towers were until Taim assigned men to them.

Either way, you nailed it on the head, the DS was not activated until those towers were being manned and the guard doubled at night.

Only makes sense really, as you said, it fits.

[Sharaman]

What I don't get is the practicality of having a dreamspike at the BT. Is it to stop an attack? Or just to stop people escaping?

 

But neither of those make sense. People can still attack it by traveling to just outside the dreamspike, and it's kind of a waste to use something like the dreamspike to keep those aes sedai and ashaman in.

 

It does offer a tactical edge- an invasion force cannot Travel within the perimeter of the D-Spike. So, you can guard key installations, receive a warning of assault,etc. Keeping the Ashaman/ AS inside is a bonus but the original purpose is to create a Travel-free safe zone,

 

In terms of timelines, I still don't have the book (ToM) around but anybody who does can check the following.

Timeline 1)

Taim received his D-Spike and was, according to Moridin, putting it to good use (present tense) before Graendal received her DS.

We know G received her DS before Tam left Perrin for Tear because Slayer experimented one night and Perrin=Hopper, Grady-Neald saw it, before Tam left.

Tam left for Tear at Vog minus 2 nights.

Rand jumped to Ebou Dar after assaulting Tam,spent a night there, and then went to DM.

Perrin destroyed the DS around 7-8 days after VoG and then Travelled to Caemlyn after fighting a battle and Travelling initially to Whitebridge.

By the Caemlyn Trip, the BT DS is definitely working. (Grady looks West I think towards the BT, which might help the map-makers.)

 

Timeline 2)

Nyn went to the WT around VoG plus 4 or 5 days. She was tested and then Travelled to the camp outside the BT and took Lan's bond and Travelled back.

(She saw partially completed walls.)

 

Putting those two timelines together:

That's definitely after Taim received the DS and started putting it to use, according to Moridin.

Nyn makes her trip to the camp around 4-5 days before Grady Travels with Perrin to Caemlyn and Grady finds he can't Travel to the BT.

So Nyn goes to the BT around 8 days minimum, after Taim received the DS, unless Moridin lied to G for some obscure reasons.

 

Timeline 3)

The BT timeline is much more vague - there's no obvious way to relate it directly to Perrin/ Nyn.

In Leather Working, Androl's Gates are working - this is not quite one month after "Emarin" arrived, with Logain.

When we catch up with Pevara, the Gates have stopped working inside the BT perimeter. We don't know when this is.

BTW, the walls are still incomplete at that stage, just that Taim has posted guards every 50 metres.

When Androl tries opening a Gate unsuccessfully, it seems to be a couple of days later than the Pevara PoV. He makes a reference to the "plump Red" creating a scene at a guard post after the lockdown.

 

Timeline 4)

The next catchup is just prior to Rand meeting the Borderlanders - around VoG+27/28 days. Rand orders Naeff to find Logain and gate to near the BT, disguise himself, etc.

 

 

I'm assuming that given that the first major weave Ashaman learn is Travelling, it's reasonable to think the DS has been in pretty constant operation. Otherwise, somebody from the BT, either AS or Ashaman would have Travelled out.

This means the BT has been cut off for around 35-odd days by the time, Rand meets the Borderlanders.

Elayne has been cheerfully using Gates all through that period. So has Perrin near Caemlyn. So did Nyn to go to the rebel camp just poutside the BT perimeter.

Androl only tries to check inside the perimeter (obviously since he can't get out).

All good reasons for thinking that the DS interdicts Travel only the inside of the BT perimeter wall. Whether Taim has deliberately set a small radius or that is the max radius, we don't know.

 

There is one puzzling inconsistency at least, that I remember.

Perrin's PoV when he goes to meet Elayne at Caemlyn suggests he is going to check out the BT in TAR due to Grady's non-Gateway problem.

We next see Perrin saying goodbye to Mat when Mat i off to ToG and Perrin "sees" Rand with the Borderlanders - so approx VoG +27/28.

 

This should be a fair number of days later than Perrin's meeting with Elayne. While we don't know exactly how long she took to get around to chatting to him, we do know Mat took a while to prepare for the ToG trip, and we know Elayne pushed off to Carhein, etc, and settled affairs there, before she went to FoM.

There's no thoughts in Perrin's PoV when he sees off Mat that centre on the BT. So we don't know if he went there in TAR or not. That is odd.

[Pilz]

Well it (conbined with the wall) protects them from the attack on Caemlyn and it prevents the Aes Sedai and good Ashaman from assisting against the attack.

[Finnssss22]

What I don't get is the practicality of having a dreamspike at the BT. Is it to stop an attack? Or just to stop people escaping?

 

But neither of those make sense. People can still attack it by traveling to just outside the dreamspike, and it's kind of a waste to use something like the dreamspike to keep those aes sedai and ashaman in.

 

It does offer a tactical edge- an invasion force cannot Travel within the perimeter of the D-Spike. So, you can guard key installations, receive a warning of assault,etc. Keeping the Ashaman/ AS inside is a bonus but the original purpose is to create a Travel-free safe zone,

 

In terms of timelines, I still don't have the book (ToM) around but anybody who does can check the following.

Timeline 1)

Taim received his D-Spike and was, according to Moridin, putting it to good use (present tense) before Graendal received her DS.

We know G received her DS before Tam left Perrin for Tear because Slayer experimented one night and Perrin=Hopper, Grady-Neald saw it, before Tam left.

Tam left for Tear at Vog minus 2 nights.

Rand jumped to Ebou Dar after assaulting Tam,spent a night there, and then went to DM.

Perrin destroyed the DS around 7-8 days after VoG and then Travelled to Caemlyn after fighting a battle and Travelling initially to Whitebridge.

By the Caemlyn Trip, the BT DS is definitely working. (Grady looks West I think towards the BT, which might help the map-makers.)

 

Timeline 2)

Nyn went to the WT around VoG plus 4 or 5 days. She was tested and then Travelled to the camp outside the BT and took Lan's bond and Travelled back.

(She saw partially completed walls.)

 

Putting those two timelines together:

That's definitely after Taim received the DS and started putting it to use, according to Moridin.

Nyn makes her trip to the camp around 4-5 days before Grady Travels with Perrin to Caemlyn and Grady finds he can't Travel to the BT.

So Nyn goes to the BT around 8 days minimum, after Taim received the DS, unless Moridin lied to G for some obscure reasons.

 

Timeline 3)

The BT timeline is much more vague - there's no obvious way to relate it directly to Perrin/ Nyn.

In Leather Working, Androl's Gates are working - this is not quite one month after "Emarin" arrived, with Logain.

When we catch up with Pevara, the Gates have stopped working inside the BT perimeter. We don't know when this is.

BTW, the walls are still incomplete at that stage, just that Taim has posted guards every 50 metres.

When Androl tries opening a Gate unsuccessfully, it seems to be a couple of days later than the Pevara PoV. He makes a reference to the "plump Red" creating a scene at a guard post after the lockdown.

 

Timeline 4)

The next catchup is just prior to Rand meeting the Borderlanders - around VoG+27/28 days. Rand orders Naeff to find Logain and gate to near the BT, disguise himself, etc.

 

 

I'm assuming that given that the first major weave Ashaman learn is Travelling, it's reasonable to think the DS has been in pretty constant operation. Otherwise, somebody from the BT, either AS or Ashaman would have Travelled out.

This means the BT has been cut off for around 35-odd days by the time, Rand meets the Borderlanders.

Elayne has been cheerfully using Gates all through that period. So has Perrin near Caemlyn. So did Nyn to go to the rebel camp just poutside the BT perimeter.

Androl only tries to check inside the perimeter (obviously since he can't get out).

All good reasons for thinking that the DS interdicts Travel only the inside of the BT perimeter wall. Whether Taim has deliberately set a small radius or that is the max radius, we don't know.

 

There is one puzzling inconsistency at least, that I remember.

Perrin's PoV when he goes to meet Elayne at Caemlyn suggests he is going to check out the BT in TAR due to Grady's non-Gateway problem.

We next see Perrin saying goodbye to Mat when Mat i off to ToG and Perrin "sees" Rand with the Borderlanders - so approx VoG +27/28.

 

This should be a fair number of days later than Perrin's meeting with Elayne. While we don't know exactly how long she took to get around to chatting to him, we do know Mat took a while to prepare for the ToG trip, and we know Elayne pushed off to Carhein, etc, and settled affairs there, before she went to FoM.

There's no thoughts in Perrin's PoV when he sees off Mat that centre on the BT. So we don't know if he went there in TAR or not. That is odd.

 

 

Someone already pointed it out but I'll repeat it. I think you're giving far too much emphasis on Mordy's statement about the DS being put to good use inferring that it's already activated.

You have gone to great pains to show what doesn't make sense based on this.

So what makes more sense, that inferring the DS is already active is flawed or that the other 5-6 instances you mention are?

Occam's razor my friend, the DS at the BT is simply not active as early as you believe it to be and everything miraculously makes sense all of a sudden.

 

It was not activated until the the BT lockdown went into effect, again, what would be the point otherwise?

I have it going live a little less than a week before Rand's deadline, the last week in June.

That fits with Pevara/Androl's, Nynaeve's, Rand's and Perrin's timelines.

[Sharaman]

What doesn't make sense about the timeline I've suggested?

The only odd note is that Perrin doesn't seem to have investigated it, at the time when he said he would.

 

I agree that the physical lockdown and the DS activation should have occurred simultaneously.

But why could the BT lockdown not have happened at the time Moridin handed the DS over to Taim?

The Pevara-Androl timelines don't contain any info/ discrepancies that suggests that the lockdown occurred later.

 

In any event, Caemlyn was clearly not affected during a period while the DS was active.

Nor do we have reason to believe anywhere outside the perimeter was affected.

[Finnssss22]

What doesn't make sense about the timeline I've suggested?

The only odd note is that Perrin doesn't seem to have investigated it, at the time when he said he would.

 

I agree that the physical lockdown and the DS activation should have occurred simultaneously.

But why could the BT lockdown not have happened at the time Moridin handed the DS over to Taim?

The Pevara-Androl timelines don't contain any info/ discrepancies that suggests that the lockdown occurred later.

 

In any event, Caemlyn was clearly not affected during a period while the DS was active.

Nor do we have reason to believe anywhere outside the perimeter was affected.

 

Because Nynaeve wouldn't of been able to travel there when she did and if it was activated when you believe, we're talking about at least a week, if not two before Rand even took off.

Perrin's timeline doesn't even catch up to the end of tGS until chapter 30.

That's a long ass time to go unnoticed and very, very unlikely.

[yoniy0]

What I don't get is the practicality of having a dreamspike at the BT. Is it to stop an attack? Or just to stop people escaping?

 

But neither of those make sense. People can still attack it by traveling to just outside the dreamspike, and it's kind of a waste to use something like the dreamspike to keep those aes sedai and ashaman in.

You don't think that trapping several hundreds of Ashaman and tens of AS where they cannot escape and subsequently converting as many as possible to the Shadow warrants the use of a Dreamspike? Seems to me that it's a pretty big enterprise.

 

@Sharaman, you think it more likely that Moridin's comment means the DS was already activated but it was set to affect the BT grounds alone, and @Finnssss and myself believe it more likely that the radius was set to include its surroundings but it was only activated once the lockdown came into effect. It seems we'll have to agree to disagree. The timeline post KoD is indeed very ambiguous, but here is a link to two attempts made based on Steven Cooper's chronology.

[Byzantine279]

We don't know exactly how dreamspikes work, it is entirely possible that they can shield areas of different sizes, why make a massive shield and alert people outside of the BT what is going on just by virtue of them being within miles of the BT?

[Sharaman]

What doesn't make sense about the timeline I've suggested?

The only odd note is that Perrin doesn't seem to have investigated it, at the time when he said he would.

 

I agree that the physical lockdown and the DS activation should have occurred simultaneously.

But why could the BT lockdown not have happened at the time Moridin handed the DS over to Taim?

The Pevara-Androl timelines don't contain any info/ discrepancies that suggests that the lockdown occurred later.

 

In any event, Caemlyn was clearly not affected during a period while the DS was active.

Nor do we have reason to believe anywhere outside the perimeter was affected.

 

Because Nynaeve wouldn't of been able to travel there when she did and if it was activated when you believe, we're talking about at least a week, if not two before Rand even took off.

Perrin's timeline doesn't even catch up to the end of tGS until chapter 30.

That's a long ass time to go unnoticed and very, very unlikely.

 

Nyn was outside the perimeter of the BT walls. She would have been able to go there, if the DS only affects the area within the wall-perimeter, whether by accident or design.

I know when Perrin's timeline catches up- the "long ass" timeline as you describe it, works out to about 30-odd days, as I stated above.

It didn't go unnoticed - it's mentioned by those who know.

Who else would you expect to make a fuss about it?

The people inside BT can't get out. Of those outside, only the Ashaman who try to Travel in, know and they've remarked on it.

The Rebels wouldn't notice, if they're not interdicted, which makes it all the more likely that Taim wouldn't interdict them.

It may seem unlikely but there's no internal contradiction in the textual evidence.

It's always possible Brandon made mistakes in that BT timeline, as he did with Mat.

[yoniy0]

We don't know exactly how dreamspikes work, it is entirely possible that they can shield areas of different sizes, why make a massive shield and alert people outside of the BT what is going on just by virtue of them being within miles of the BT?

Oh, I agree that the area this one shields differs from what Perrin experienced. At least in the case that the DS is located inside the BT. I've said as much when discussing Caemlyn. I just find it very hard to believe Taim wouldn't want to trap the (former) rebel AS as well. And I disagree with Sharaman that there's evidence to the contrary (Nynaeve's trip there only works if you accept his premiss that the DS was activated at the time Moridin lent the second DS to Graendal).

[herid]

I agree with Finnssss and yoniy0. When Moridin tells to Graendal that the other dreamspike is being put to good use that doesn't have to mean that the dreamspike is active right that moment. It could easily mean that it's positioned in the BT and is to be activated when it's deemed prudent. that's only logical and resolves all the contradictions which would arise otherwise. The only issue is the dreamspike effective radius. It does seem likely from everything we've seen that it can be adjusted. It was likely maxed out when Slayer was trying to trap Perrin but when it was originally activated at the BT they might have not wanted to alert Elayne. However, as I said above I think the time for secrecy is pretty much over. the invasion of Caemlyn is starting and Taim is converting people to the shadow almost openly. @yoniy0 I was wrong when I said that the wall is complete, thanks for the correction. but it's sufficiently complete to peg people inside in using the guard towers.

 

I expect Taim should reveal his true colors completely openly quite soon and he might increase the dreamspike radius to the max when he does. My original question was about trying to figure out how much ground that would cover. It will definitely cover the rebel Aes Sedai camp and I do believe it will cover a good piece of Caemlyn too but likely not Mat's camp.

 

BTW, @ Finnssss I believe a month in Randlands is 28 days not 3 weeks which is 30 days.

[Finnssss22]

 

BTW, @ Finnssss I believe a month in Randlands is 28 days not 3 weeks which is 30 days.

 

 

Yep good call, 28 is right.