Ishamael and Moridin

[malpka]

My first post here :)

I couldn't stop myself from posting it but why everybody seem so sure that Moridin is actually Ishamael?

Didn't read any authors comments so if it is stated by any of them then please let me know.

For me actually it seems way more likely that it will be revived Lews Therin?

 

 

 

 

PS Sorry for my English I am not native speaker.

[Kadere]

Read this article.

[malpka]

I do not argue that Moridin is Watcher or Wanderer only that Ishamael is Moridin.

There isn't any definite confirmation in the books, contrary to other Forsaken, he is the one which noboady is sure about.

Other Forsaken either think or are almost sure about it.

Only real recognition we have from Rand, when he meet him in dream (btw he doesn't her Lews Therin there), but Rand recognize him only as the one he killed in Tear (aka Ishamael), and there is something what bugging me since DR (heh how many years is that) Rand killling Baalzamoon in Tear then we (and Rand) are explained that it wasn't in fact Baalzamoon, but propably other Forsaken. Egwene state that she think it was Ishamael based on prophecy Verin told her about. She says that it was something about name, covered by name (read it in polish and while ago so not going to translete it back from polish and memory anyway is the nuber of names which matter), however when Verin Read her this prophecy we read name covered by name, inside name (or similiar however there are definitly 3 names, not something translation can Change).

To make it simple: Rand recognize him as Ishamael because he was told so, not because he remember him.

There are other things as well like since the very beggining everybody state he looks similiar to Rand, Moridin state he doesn’t know what would happen if they kill one another.

Beside that that would free Ishamael to be Taim which seems reasonable (Taim doesn’t really fit as someone from this age)

[b9anders]

I do not argue that Moridin is Watcher or Wanderer only that Ishamael is Moridin.

There isn't any definite confirmation in the books, contrary to other Forsaken, he is the one which noboady is sure about.

Other Forsaken either think or are almost sure about it.

Only real recognition we have from Rand, when he meet him in dream (btw he doesn't her Lews Therin there), but Rand recognize him only as the one he killed in Tear (aka Ishamael), and there is something what bugging me since DR (heh how many years is that) Rand killling Baalzamoon in Tear then we (and Rand) are explained that it wasn't in fact Baalzamoon, but propably other Forsaken. Egwene state that she think it was Ishamael based on prophecy Verin told her about. She says that it was something about name, covered by name (read it in polish and while ago so not going to translete it back from polish and memory anyway is the nuber of names which matter), however when Verin Read her this prophecy we read name covered by name, inside name (or similiar however there are definitly 3 names, not something translation can Change).

To make it simple: Rand recognize him as Ishamael because he was told so, not because he remember him.

There are other things as well like since the very beggining everybody state he looks similiar to Rand, Moridin state he doesn’t know what would happen if they kill one another.

Beside that that would free Ishamael to be Taim which seems reasonable (Taim doesn’t really fit as someone from this age)

 

It is blatantly obvious. Rand calls him Ishamael in the dream they meet in, Moridin retorts "I am known as Moridin, now." Later in the same conversation, he calls him Elan, Ishamael's name prior to turning to the shadow. They talk about how he came back from the dead, Moridin gives the same old talk about the endless turning of the wheel and how the DO will end everything that all the other forsaken are utterly blind to. Classic Ishamael trash talk.

 

As well, in earlier books, the watcher contemplates how he has had millennia to master the arts of warcraft Sammael so prided himself on. Only one guy around with that kind of longevity and that is Elan Morin Tedronai. Aka Ishamael, aka Ba'alzamon aka Moridin.

[malpka]

Actually I belive it looked like that

-...Isch...

- That is not my name. My name is Moridin now.

That leave marigin for author to claim somebody else as Moridin (hope You get what I mean kinda hard to dress it in words)

As for calling him Elan, well, why would he correct? especially with all the :

You never know everything and most of what you know is wrong- talk in some of the books( dont remember where exactly it was)

Classic Ishamael trash talk.

Ultimate goal seems to be quite similiar to some madman voice in Rand head.

As for your point about millenia to master war arts, there really can be any number explanations easy for autor to pull off.

Blatantly obvious - that's the problem, it seems so obvious and never is actually confirmed.

[b9anders]

There is obvious to the point of suspicion and then there is blatantly obvious to the point of established fact.

 

This is the latter. Lews Therin does not exist as an independent entity. He was reborn as Rand al Thor and the two are now perfectly integrated.

[David Selig]

The older version of the WoTFAQ (Pre-KoD) explains it well:

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.2_forsaken2/1.2.3_moridin.html

[malpka]

As I said in my second post (third on this page) we dont know for sure that Balzamoon was played by Ishamael, pretty much all stated in linked article fits both Ishameael and Lews Therin, assuming later playing Balzamoon.

Additionally we know that Dark One wanted Lews Therin to be on his (Dark One) side (and death would make Lews Therin easily convertable), so making him Nae'Blis is even more reasonable than Ishamael.

 

PS Sorry if it is coming through messy I am at work right now :)

[Terez]

My first post here :)

I couldn't stop myself from posting it but why everybody seem so sure that Moridin is actually Ishamael?

RJ called it an 'open secret' several years ago.

[capuga]

As I said in my second post (third on this page) we dont know for sure that Balzamoon was played by Ishamael, pretty much all stated in linked article fits both Ishameael and Lews Therin, assuming later playing Balzamoon.

Additionally we know that Dark One wanted Lews Therin to be on his (Dark One) side (and death would make Lews Therin easily convertable), so making him Nae'Blis is even more reasonable than Ishamael.

 

PS Sorry if it is coming through messy I am at work right now :)

 

How can Moridin be LTT when LTT's soul has been reborn in Rand al'Thor? That's why he is the "Dragon Reborn". As to Ishy, Ba'alzamon, and Moridin - Sorry, but there is no doubt on this. Moridin is Ishy. Others have provided links to the evidence. Rand and Moridin's conversation in the dream was just the final confirmation and shouldn't leave any doubt.

[malpka]

Therez thank you. that's exactly kind of confirmation I have been looking for.

Mark Grayson sorry but about links to evidence, did you read all my posts?

[Thor]

Morridin is Ishamael, end of story. If you don't believe, then don't believe, nobody is forcing you to.