Egwene and the Tower

[Puny]

I´m rereading the series and one thing I´ve been wondering about is where Egwene´s passion for the Tower and all thing Aes Sedai comes from? I know it´s pointed out that she has this thirst for knowledge and I can buy that that´s a motivator to a certain degree. She is strong in the Power and everyone says that she will be a great Aes Sedai if she just studies. But she is adamant to reunite the Tower, she wants to keep the Oaths (even though she knows what it does to the Aes Sedai) and she doesn´t seem to care for her friends, she just views them as tools to further her agenda, to make the tower whole. One early example of her attitude is when she told Nyn to back down in FoH this is what she is thinking the second time she is to visit Nyn in the dreamworld:

 

"Guiltily, she realized as she turned a page that she was looking forward to seeing Nynaeve tonight. Not because Nynaeve was a friend, but because she wanted to see if the effects had lingered. If Nynaeve tugged at her braid, she would arch a cool eyebrow at her and...Light, I hope it´s held. If she lets out about that jaunt, Amys and Bair and Melaine will take turns skinning me, if they don´t just tell me to go." p 378

 

I´m sure there are many more. Nyn as always been said to have a passion for healing, she was a Wisdom in TR and I think that her arc is flows very... naturally. But in my mind Egwene´s doesn´t fit. Why does she feels so strongly for the tower? One thing my bf said was that she just recently have discovered the White Tower (has it been two years since she first set foot in the Tower?) and that she is somewhat overenthusiastic, cause she has found purpose in her life... but I don´t think that is reason enough. Any thoughts on this?

[Sleeper]

She's a chameleon. When she was among the Aiel she became Aiel, when she was among Aes Sedai she became Aes Sedai. That's one reason I dislike her so much, she's become so fully Aes Sedai that she's begun to embody the traits that make Aes Sedai so worthless.

 

It also could have to do with the fact she got elected Amyrlin, an Amyrlin's pretty much got to be obsessed with the Tower.

[Puny]

. That's one reason I dislike her so much, she's become so fully Aes Sedai that she's begun to embody the traits that make Aes Sedai so worthless.

+1

 

I think that´s why I dislike her too. Instead of her changing the way of the Aes Sedai and the Tower, she is becoming like them. But her being an chameleon, I dk. I just feel that Egwene´s arc doesn´t seem to develop as it... should. Her interest and passion for the Aes Sedai seems constructed and not genuine. And I was honestly thinking that her time in the Waste, learning about ji´e´toh would change her or make her see things differently, so that she would bring about change for the Aes Sedai.

 

I dk maybe I just don´t like Egwene for some weird reason... cause I just thought of, that I never expected Rand to be all about honor and obligation when he was with the Aiel, but maybe that was because he was destined to change the Aiel. I mean, Dark Rand goes around bossing people, ordering his friends about and sees people as means to an end, yet I don´t feel ... hate or huge disliking for him, as I do with Egwene. I´m lost

[Sleeper]

. That's one reason I dislike her so much, she's become so fully Aes Sedai that she's begun to embody the traits that make Aes Sedai so worthless.

+1

 

I think that´s why I dislike her too. Instead of her changing the way of the Aes Sedai and the Tower, she is becoming like them. But her being an chameleon, I dk. I just feel that Egwene´s arc doesn´t seem to develop as it... should. Her interest and passion for the Aes Sedai seems constructed and not genuine. And I was honestly thinking that her time in the Waste, learning about ji´e´toh would change her or make her see things differently, so that she would bring about change for the Aes Sedai.

 

I dk maybe I just don´t like Egwene for some weird reason... cause I just thought of, that I never expected Rand to be all about honor and obligation when he was with the Aiel, but maybe that was because he was destined to change the Aiel. I mean, Dark Rand goes around bossing people, ordering his friends about and sees people as means to an end, yet I don´t feel ... hate or huge disliking for him, as I do with Egwene. I´m lost

True, Egwene's obsession with the Tower does seem strange on second thought.

 

As to Rand, the reason you probably don't feel hate or dislike for him is probably the same reason I don't, because his actions make sense in context. He's been thrust into this role he's not prepared for, had to endure the worst kinds of treatment, and has been manipulated, hunted, and hated. It makes sense for him to attempt to harden himself from the world, you empathize with him.

 

With Egwene, it's different.

[Suttree]

I think that´s why I dislike her too. Instead of her changing the way of the Aes Sedai and the Tower, she is becoming like them. \

 

Although I agree with some of the things mentioned, to be fair she has already brought about a great deal of change within the Aes Sedai structure and has plans for much more.

[Sleeper]

I think that´s why I dislike her too. Instead of her changing the way of the Aes Sedai and the Tower, she is becoming like them. \

 

Although I agree with some of the things mentioned, to be fair she has already brought about a great deal of change within the Aes Sedai structure and has plans for much more.

She may have, but there are some critical parts that she hasn't touched. Namely, the 3 Oaths. I know she originally intended to change them, but was convinced by Siuan. However, the 3 Oaths is still something that I think needs to be fixed.

 

Additionally, I'm not entirely sure but I don't think she's doing anything about the way Aes Sedai hierarchy works. Strength in the Power shouldn't dictate social standing.

[AshaShan]

Egwene has always been power hungry. IMO her obsession with the White Tower began when she became Amyrlin and is based on the simple fact that anything that furthurs its agenda and expands its power base now expands and furthurs hers. If she had been a learner rather than a sparker and had somehow been made a top der'suldam she would be equally obsessed with expanding the glory of the Seanchan Empire.

[Puny]

 

Additionally, I'm not entirely sure but I don't think she's doing anything about the way Aes Sedai hierarchy works. Strength in the Power shouldn't dictate social standing.

 

From what I´ve seen up until ToM she has done a great deal to strengthen her own power, like that the Amyrlin needs to be present at certain meeetings. I know that when they met the Kin, I think it was Egwene, I may be wrong, that commented on how they seemed to have another hierarchy regarding who does the decision-making, they did it by age.

I agree that strength in the Power shouldn´t dictate social standing, I´m sure the Aes Sedai has missed alot of opportunities because they have listened too much to Aes Sedai who were strong in the Power but maybe not so strong/knowlegable in other areas. The Aiel society and the Wise Ones are respected on equal level even if some of them can´t channel. I do understand her work for the Tower to be united before TG, but... it´s how she does it. She has brought about change, but not in the most important things.

 

What if she keeps the 3 oaths and when TG is over, if channeling is still possible then, the Asha´man will live twice or three times as long as the Aes Sedai? That would further the imbalance between them. (abit OT I know)

 

So basically she has this passion for the Tower because... she is ambitious? Or maybe she is just determined not to be a puppet for the other Aes Sedai, thus forcing her to care more for the Tower then a normal woman that has been with the Tower for 2 years would.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I agree with most of the above posts.

 

I can't see how Egwene's history has led her to the place she is now and made her a kind of person she is.

 

I think that either she is a kind of person whose way of thinking and motives I am unable to comprehend, or her arc is just badly written.

I think that whereas for Rand, RJ had his own experiences (especially of war)to build on, he lacked such experience and understanding in case of Egwene.

 

On the other hand, many female readers identify with Egwene and love her, so maybe it is me who don't understand her.

[Phelix]

I'm going to ramble a bit here, so please don't worry...

 

I think a key aspect to understanding Egwene is that she has never had a unique, personal identity. She was Egwene, the Mayor's Daughter. Egwene, Nynaeve's Apprentice. Egwene, the girl who would marry Rand when they were old enough. She was never just Egwene. Each step she took was toward trying to find her own identity. Becoming apprenticed to the Wisdom takes her out from under her mother and father's authority. Setting her sights on a young man who will inherit a good plot of land far from where her family currently lives will give her distance and room to grow into her own role.

 

When Moiraine came to take Rand, Mat, and Perrin away, Egwene wanted to go along because it was another way to step apart from the people who have always defined her. On that trip, though, she fell back into those habits by allowing Moiraine to define her. She stopped following Two Rivers traditions, and started aping Moiraine because Moiraine was a much bigger role to fill and gave Egwene more room to grow.

 

We see this again in the Tower as she works hard to be the best Novice, and as she demands to be treated like an equal to Nynaeve the moment they are both Accepted. If Nynaeve treats her as less than an equal, it threatens how Egwene defines herself... as an Accepted. Again, when she is with the Aiel, she redefines herself by the people around her, finding a larger, new role she can fill.

 

I think part of her problem is the fact that of all the people who were taken from Emond's Field, she's the only "normal" one. Rand, Mat, and Perrin are all ta'veren, even if it took time to notice it around the weaker two. There was something "special" about all three of them, and Egwene was being left behind.

 

She has set herself, since the beginning, to either guide or counter Rand. First, she was trying to help him, trying to Heal him, trying to teach him to channel, but he grew more quickly than she did and in different areas than she did. He was the Dragon Reborn, the car'a'carn, and he was reshaping the world... she couldn't match that. When she was selected to be Amyrlin, albeit a puppet, she finally had the room to grow to a stature that matched Rand's. The Amyrlin is the most important woman in the world, surely in that role, she could balance Rand.

 

In this capacity, it's almost like the push/pull of saidin and saidar... they are both working toward the same goals, but are pushing and pulling against each other as much as they are pushing toward their goal.

 

Egwene is quite codependent. She needs to be supported and acknowledged, and when people don't support her, when they don't acknowledge her, she flounders and lashes out. When they do support her, acknowledge her in whatever role she is currently playing, she showers them with affection and praise.

 

 

Now, having written all of that, I enjoy Egwene as a character. I like to read her chapters, and tend to get where she's coming from... I still think the girl has some emotional issues she needs to work through.

[Senexx]

And anyone would want to one up Nynaeve the way she treated Emond's Field as Wisdom.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I'm going to ramble a bit here, so please don't worry...

 

I think a key aspect to understanding Egwene is that she has never had a unique, personal identity. She was Egwene, the Mayor's Daughter. Egwene, Nynaeve's Apprentice. Egwene, the girl who would marry Rand when they were old enough. She was never just Egwene. Each step she took was toward trying to find her own identity. Becoming apprenticed to the Wisdom takes her out from under her mother and father's authority. Setting her sights on a young man who will inherit a good plot of land far from where her family currently lives will give her distance and room to grow into her own role.

 

When Moiraine came to take Rand, Mat, and Perrin away, Egwene wanted to go along because it was another way to step apart from the people who have always defined her. On that trip, though, she fell back into those habits by allowing Moiraine to define her. She stopped following Two Rivers traditions, and started aping Moiraine because Moiraine was a much bigger role to fill and gave Egwene more room to grow.

 

We see this again in the Tower as she works hard to be the best Novice, and as she demands to be treated like an equal to Nynaeve the moment they are both Accepted. If Nynaeve treats her as less than an equal, it threatens how Egwene defines herself... as an Accepted. Again, when she is with the Aiel, she redefines herself by the people around her, finding a larger, new role she can fill.

 

I think part of her problem is the fact that of all the people who were taken from Emond's Field, she's the only "normal" one. Rand, Mat, and Perrin are all ta'veren, even if it took time to notice it around the weaker two. There was something "special" about all three of them, and Egwene was being left behind.

 

She has set herself, since the beginning, to either guide or counter Rand. First, she was trying to help him, trying to Heal him, trying to teach him to channel, but he grew more quickly than she did and in different areas than she did. He was the Dragon Reborn, the car'a'carn, and he was reshaping the world... she couldn't match that. When she was selected to be Amyrlin, albeit a puppet, she finally had the room to grow to a stature that matched Rand's. The Amyrlin is the most important woman in the world, surely in that role, she could balance Rand.

 

In this capacity, it's almost like the push/pull of saidin and saidar... they are both working toward the same goals, but are pushing and pulling against each other as much as they are pushing toward their goal.

 

Egwene is quite codependent. She needs to be supported and acknowledged, and when people don't support her, when they don't acknowledge her, she flounders and lashes out. When they do support her, acknowledge her in whatever role she is currently playing, she showers them with affection and praise.

 

 

Now, having written all of that, I enjoy Egwene as a character. I like to read her chapters, and tend to get where she's coming from... I still think the girl has some emotional issues she needs to work through.

 

It is a very good post, but I don't agree that in her role as the Amyrlin Egwene either could or should balance Rand.

 

There were hundreds of Amyrlins in history. There is only one Dragon Reborn.

The Amyrlin is the leader of only one organization, even if important one. She's essentially an administrator and a politician.

The DR is a metaphysical saviour of the world, chosen by the Pattern.

Rand has been of the first line of battle with DO from book 1. Egwene has spent lot of time on either personal development (Aiel training, Aes Sedai training) or Aes Sedai politics. Her role in fighting the DO, although still significant, was definitely smaller (also smaller than Nynaeve's).

DR has many "special powers" or traits -LTT memories, ta'veren nature, links with Moridin, Aiel markings, prophesized destiny. Egwene has nothing of the sort (ok, maybe Dreaming Talent could be counted here). She is a strong, clever person -such as many others in the book.

 

I agree that RJ set her to be a conterpoint to Rand in the final books , similar to Saidin/Saidar thing. I just don't think that her character development adequately explains why she ends in that place. RJ could e.g. make her a second, female Dragon, who would be a target for Lanfear just like Rand was a target for Ishamael. He didn't though, and so DR pays all the prices and fights most of the fights, and suddenly in TGS there is Egwene who sees herself as equally entitled to lead in the Last Battle.

I don't want to take anything away from Egwene- she has certainly earned her status as the Amyrlin, but her recent role as DR's counterpoint is IMHO not justified and inconsistent with previous books.

[Phelix]

It is a very good post, but I don't agree that in her role as the Amyrlin Egwene either could or should balance Rand.

 

There were hundreds of Amyrlins in history. There is only one Dragon Reborn.

The Amyrlin is the leader of only one organization, even if important one. She's essentially an administrator and a politician.

The DR is a metaphysical saviour of the world, chosen by the Pattern.

Rand has been of the first line of battle with DO from book 1. Egwene has spent lot of time on either personal development (Aiel training, Aes Sedai training) or Aes Sedai politics. Her role in fighting the DO, although still significant, was definitely smaller (also smaller than Nynaeve's).

DR has many "special powers" or traits -LTT memories, ta'veren nature, links with Moridin, Aiel markings, prophesized destiny. Egwene has nothing of the sort (ok, maybe Dreaming Talent could be counted here). She is a strong, clever person -such as many others in the book.

 

I agree that RJ set her to be a conterpoint to Rand in the final books , similar to Saidin/Saidar thing. I just don't think that her character development adequately explains why she ends in that place. RJ could e.g. make her a second, female Dragon, who would be a target for Lanfear just like Rand was a target for Ishamael. He didn't though, and so DR pays all the prices and fights most of the fights, and suddenly in TGS there is Egwene who sees herself as equally entitled to lead in the Last Battle.

I don't want to take anything away from Egwene- she has certainly earned her status as the Amyrlin, but her recent role as DR's counterpoint is IMHO not justified and inconsistent with previous books.

 

I'm going to cautiously disagree.

 

There has been one Amyrlin Seat over the 3,000 years since the Breaking... just many women have claimed it. The Amyrlin is supposed to represent all channeling in the Westlands, and because that's where most of the story takes place they get to step up and represent the world at large.

 

The Dragon Reborn, while a metaphysical tool of the pattern, is also a man. A human. If he were suddenly launched to the greatest heights without any opposition, then he would stand more risk of becoming a horrible tyrant or doing something incredibly foolish and dooming everyone.

 

In the metaphysical, the DR is standing in for the chaotic energy of saidin. It's rough, wild, and very hard to contain... just like male channelers are in general, and the DR in specific, in this Age. There is no structure or form guiding them. Generally, they want to, and try to, do good, but it's each one on their own doing everything with the best of their ability. The White Tower, and the Amyrlin, represent the opposite. They have an equally strong power, but it is rigidly controlled. There is form. There is process.

 

Egwene, as an individual, doesn't match up to or balance the Dragon at all. The Amyrlin Seat of the White Tower, though, is the natural balance... or at least, the best one we've got. Now, the fact that Egwene has gone and invested her personal self worth into the position is just another aspect of her lack of a unique identity. If the girl was herself first, she wouldn't try so hard to be what she expects people want her to be.

 

Egwene and Siuan, and perhaps even Elaida, all had this problem. They were young women being given an immense step up in power, and were expected to behave in certain ways. They generally lost the ability to be individuals. It's a problem anyone faces when they take over as the head of an organization, especially a powerful one.

 

I notice that the strong individuals in the series all shudder at the thought of being called to be Amyrlin. Moiraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve... these women have a personal identity (Nyn less so) that is well formed and it would be a significant sacrifice to give it up to be the monolithic Amyrlin Seat.

 

And I'm rambling again....

[Puny]

 

 

I'm going to cautiously disagree.

 

There has been one Amyrlin Seat over the 3,000 years since the Breaking... just many women have claimed it. The Amyrlin is supposed to represent all channeling in the Westlands, and because that's where most of the story takes place they get to step up and represent the world at large.

 

The Dragon Reborn, while a metaphysical tool of the pattern, is also a man. A human. If he were suddenly launched to the greatest heights without any opposition, then he would stand more risk of becoming a horrible tyrant or doing something incredibly foolish and dooming everyone.

 

In the metaphysical, the DR is standing in for the chaotic energy of saidin. It's rough, wild, and very hard to contain... just like male channelers are in general, and the DR in specific, in this Age. There is no structure or form guiding them. Generally, they want to, and try to, do good, but it's each one on their own doing everything with the best of their ability. The White Tower, and the Amyrlin, represent the opposite. They have an equally strong power, but it is rigidly controlled. There is form. There is process.

 

Egwene, as an individual, doesn't match up to or balance the Dragon at all. The Amyrlin Seat of the White Tower, though, is the natural balance... or at least, the best one we've got. Now, the fact that Egwene has gone and invested her personal self worth into the position is just another aspect of her lack of a unique identity. If the girl was herself first, she wouldn't try so hard to be what she expects people want her to be.

 

Egwene and Siuan, and perhaps even Elaida, all had this problem. They were young women being given an immense step up in power, and were expected to behave in certain ways. They generally lost the ability to be individuals. It's a problem anyone faces when they take over as the head of an organization, especially a powerful one.

 

I notice that the strong individuals in the series all shudder at the thought of being called to be Amyrlin. Moiraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve... these women have a personal identity (Nyn less so) that is well formed and it would be a significant sacrifice to give it up to be the monolithic Amyrlin Seat.

 

And I'm rambling again....

This is gonna be abit long.. sorry

 

The reason the Dragon was under opposition was that he as a male channeler doomed to go mad was feared, he is the very symbol of destruction to come in a world, where humankind believe that when the Dragon is reborn, the end of times will be near. Thus even the idea of the DR is frightening, let alone the actual man walking around wielding the Power.

And Rand was heading towards disaster, but mostly cause he was trying to be something he was never meant to be- a weapon. He had a huge identity crisis, which manifested in LTT. Due to his epiphany about his own true nature he managed to grow - he is fulfilling his potential, finding his true nature as the DR.

 

Saidin´s nature is chaos, fighting for controll... domination. That doesn´t mean to that every male channeler is gonna be crazy and in himself be dominating and crazy.

Saidar´s nature is order, submitting to gain controll. That doesn´t mean that every female channeler is as pushover, ready to submit. Saidin and saidar are just two parts of the Source, each counterbalancing the other, yet equally important. The Source is like a huge river where some waterflows are calm, passing by slowly while other waters are gushing forward, pulling things with it, but they are still the SAME waters, just manifested differently.

 

The White Tower has been a natural powersource, most women who could channel were sent there, saidar was not tainted and the AS have been skilled manipulators, mediators, healers... they have found ways to be in people´s lives, everpresent. I agree with Phelix that the reason Egwene has a problem is because she has lost her ability to be an individual.. or rather she has lost herself, but that happened before she ever was an Amyrlin.

But that´s not her fault entirely... the WT as an organization is very conservative and set in it´s ways.

 

And part of WT doctrine IS to loose yourself and become something else; Aes Sedai. They need to have certain guidelines and rules cause they are a huge organisation, but the reason the Tower will fall if it doesn´t change and that includes Egwene is that is chained under it´s own ideas of what the White Tower is, how an Aes Sedai should behave, how the Power is to be used.

The Black Tower on the other hand hasn´t had a history of preservation or boundaries, so they are free to grow, explore and change.

 

Egwene is busy living up to the ideal of what the Tower should be and how the Aes Sedai should behave. Even the Ajah are an example of this, making each Aes Sedai in each Ajah behave according to the traditions to each Ajah when more freedom from the Ajahs would further the growth of each Aes Sedai and also the knowledge of all the Aes Sedai. I hope that Egwene will find her own identity and path in being an Amyrlin, and that she will be able to break free from tradition.

 

As Phelix said.. if she until now has been defining herself with everyone from farmers, to Aiel to Aes Sedai, it´s time for her now to start redefining herself. I hope the small changes she has done in the Tower is a way for her to show her OWN indentity as an Amyrlin and not just a way for her to strenghten her position as Amyrlin. She needs to do changes for her own sake and for what she sees will be good... not for what the idolized Amyrlin would see as good.

She needs to fill her epmty vessel or identity with herself and nothing else.

 

I agree to an extent that Egwene tries so hard to be the Amyrlin, the symbol, that she forgets to be Egwene the human also. But IMO the AS needs the Asha´man as a counterbalance. For 3000 years the AS have run the world, and now they are on the brink of loosing that power. I hope that both the AS and the Asha´man will work together or at least balance each other out when TG is over. Another way to balance things out is to have the next Age forget all about the power and DO... but I hope that is for another age.

[Guest PiotrekS]

 

I'm going to cautiously disagree.

 

There has been one Amyrlin Seat over the 3,000 years since the Breaking... just many women have claimed it. The Amyrlin is supposed to represent all channeling in the Westlands, and because that's where most of the story takes place they get to step up and represent the world at large.

 

The Dragon Reborn, while a metaphysical tool of the pattern, is also a man. A human. If he were suddenly launched to the greatest heights without any opposition, then he would stand more risk of becoming a horrible tyrant or doing something incredibly foolish and dooming everyone.

 

In the metaphysical, the DR is standing in for the chaotic energy of saidin. It's rough, wild, and very hard to contain... just like male channelers are in general, and the DR in specific, in this Age. There is no structure or form guiding them. Generally, they want to, and try to, do good, but it's each one on their own doing everything with the best of their ability. The White Tower, and the Amyrlin, represent the opposite. They have an equally strong power, but it is rigidly controlled. There is form. There is process.

 

Egwene, as an individual, doesn't match up to or balance the Dragon at all. The Amyrlin Seat of the White Tower, though, is the natural balance... or at least, the best one we've got. Now, the fact that Egwene has gone and invested her personal self worth into the position is just another aspect of her lack of a unique identity. If the girl was herself first, she wouldn't try so hard to be what she expects people want her to be.

 

Egwene and Siuan, and perhaps even Elaida, all had this problem. They were young women being given an immense step up in power, and were expected to behave in certain ways. They generally lost the ability to be individuals. It's a problem anyone faces when they take over as the head of an organization, especially a powerful one.

 

I notice that the strong individuals in the series all shudder at the thought of being called to be Amyrlin. Moiraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve... these women have a personal identity (Nyn less so) that is well formed and it would be a significant sacrifice to give it up to be the monolithic Amyrlin Seat.

 

And I'm rambling again....

 

And another good post

 

If I understand your argument correctly, you argue that even though Egwene as a person does not have enough authority to conteract or balance the Dragon, it is the institution that she emodies that has this power and authority. And you make an analogy to Saidin-more chaotic, individualistic, cursed for many ages - and Saidar- more collective, calmer but not weaker, its usage bound by rules and institutionalized.

 

It is a very interesting argument and it seems possible to me that RJ might have looked at it in similar fashion.

 

I still have a few problems:

1. DR is hardly chaotic now (ToM). It is Egwene who seems to be more irrational and her support among the female channelers-even Aes Sedai themselves-is far from universal.

2. The Amyrlin can hardly pretend to be the leader of all the Saidar-wielding channelers in the world and the Last Battle is a world-scale entreprise. Tuon's military assets are probably stronger than Egwene's, including channeling. There are also Wise Ones, Windfinders, the Kin and folks from Shara.

3. If I'm not mistaken, LTT also held a institutional position of power (First among the Servants, who wore the Ring of Tamyrlin). It could be argued that as a leader of pre-breaking united Aes Sedai his position was somewhat superior to that of current Amyrlin, who leads only one half of the organisation greatly diminished in power, authority, wisdom, public trust and respect.

4. Even if the Amyrlin has a good claim to influencing world affairs as such, the Dragon is a tool "made" specifically for the Last Battle. Amyrlin's mission is more comprehensive, but DR's is more important and specific. It is difficult to hit the nails better than the hammer

 

I like your analysis of Egwene's personality very much I wonder if RJ wanted to write her like that, or whether he really thought that a tendency to engage in everything you do wholeheartedly and without any reservations is personality enough.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Ok, I'll post now that see this isn't just another one of a hundred, "I hate Egween (or insert dominant female character of your choice)", because I've banned myself from posting to those thread. Simply not worth my time.

 

First let me get this out of the way, I love the character Egween has become and really didn't like the adventure seeking little girl that left EF.

 

With that said, I agree with a lot of what has been posted and disagree with some. This is my take on why I think Egween has such a devotion to the White Tower.

 

As I said she left EF seeking adventure, but would have left anyway because she wanted to be a Wisdom. She has a really strong drive or ambition like a lot if people have pointed out. Then she meets Moraine and learns that she can become AS. At that point, she has a new goal, but still with the views of a 16 year old girl. It's something she wants because it would be fun or adventurous.

 

It isn't until she learns toh from the Wise Ones. Up until the point where she admits to the WOs and meets her toh for lying to them about being AS I really didn't like herr very much.

 

Her time with the WOs was supposed to be just about learning the world of dreams, but it was the time with them that changed her from a girl to a young women.

 

All of the two rivers characters are head strong, strong willed, and have a strong sense of devotion to duty or doing the right thing. Combine that with her time with the WOs and then having the SAS set her up as a puppet Amrylin and you can understand why she threw herself into doing the best job she could.

 

She believes the WT will play an important role in TG and the time after TG. She also new that the WT had to face TG as one Tower and couldn't be divided and until that happened she really couldn't turn her attentions to TG. Kind of like building a race strategy before you have a race car.

 

She isn't power hungry as people think she is. She isn't mean to her friends. She is simply devoted to doing what she thinks is best for the world.

[David Selig]

This has always seemed somewhat forced to me. Egwene bought the whole White Tower ideology and mentality way too quickly after only several months of training and a few months as Amyrlin. And she hasn't even grown up in a place where the Aes Sedai have a good reputation, in fact it was clearly the opposite, as we can see throughout EOTW. Now it's all about the Tower for her, everything else is a very distant second. She barely ever thinks about Two Rivers and her family, which strikes me as unnatural. Her behaviour and thinking is of someone who's been Aes Sedai for decades, not months.

[Phelix]

This is gonna be abit long.. sorry

 

The reason the Dragon was under opposition was that he as a male channeler doomed to go mad was feared, he is the very symbol of destruction to come in a world, where humankind believe that when the Dragon is reborn, the end of times will be near. Thus even the idea of the DR is frightening, let alone the actual man walking around wielding the Power.

And Rand was heading towards disaster, but mostly cause he was trying to be something he was never meant to be- a weapon. He had a huge identity crisis, which manifested in LTT. Due to his epiphany about his own true nature he managed to grow - he is fulfilling his potential, finding his true nature as the DR.

 

Saidin´s nature is chaos, fighting for controll... domination. That doesn´t mean to that every male channeler is gonna be crazy and in himself be dominating and crazy.

Saidar´s nature is order, submitting to gain controll. That doesn´t mean that every female channeler is as pushover, ready to submit. Saidin and saidar are just two parts of the Source, each counterbalancing the other, yet equally important. The Source is like a huge river where some waterflows are calm, passing by slowly while other waters are gushing forward, pulling things with it, but they are still the SAME waters, just manifested differently.

 

The White Tower has been a natural powersource, most women who could channel were sent there, saidar was not tainted and the AS have been skilled manipulators, mediators, healers... they have found ways to be in people´s lives, everpresent. I agree with Phelix that the reason Egwene has a problem is because she has lost her ability to be an individual.. or rather she has lost herself, but that happened before she ever was an Amyrlin.

But that´s not her fault entirely... the WT as an organization is very conservative and set in it´s ways.

 

And part of WT doctrine IS to loose yourself and become something else; Aes Sedai. They need to have certain guidelines and rules cause they are a huge organisation, but the reason the Tower will fall if it doesn´t change and that includes Egwene is that is chained under it´s own ideas of what the White Tower is, how an Aes Sedai should behave, how the Power is to be used.

The Black Tower on the other hand hasn´t had a history of preservation or boundaries, so they are free to grow, explore and change.

 

Egwene is busy living up to the ideal of what the Tower should be and how the Aes Sedai should behave. Even the Ajah are an example of this, making each Aes Sedai in each Ajah behave according to the traditions to each Ajah when more freedom from the Ajahs would further the growth of each Aes Sedai and also the knowledge of all the Aes Sedai. I hope that Egwene will find her own identity and path in being an Amyrlin, and that she will be able to break free from tradition.

 

As Phelix said.. if she until now has been defining herself with everyone from farmers, to Aiel to Aes Sedai, it´s time for her now to start redefining herself. I hope the small changes she has done in the Tower is a way for her to show her OWN indentity as an Amyrlin and not just a way for her to strenghten her position as Amyrlin. She needs to do changes for her own sake and for what she sees will be good... not for what the idolized Amyrlin would see as good.

She needs to fill her epmty vessel or identity with herself and nothing else.

 

I agree to an extent that Egwene tries so hard to be the Amyrlin, the symbol, that she forgets to be Egwene the human also. But IMO the AS needs the Asha´man as a counterbalance. For 3000 years the AS have run the world, and now they are on the brink of loosing that power. I hope that both the AS and the Asha´man will work together or at least balance each other out when TG is over. Another way to balance things out is to have the next Age forget all about the power and DO... but I hope that is for another age.

 

I like a lot of what you put down here, Logain's pet.

 

And another good post

 

If I understand your argument correctly, you argue that even though Egwene as a person does not have enough authority to conteract or balance the Dragon, it is the institution that she emodies that has this power and authority. And you make an analogy to Saidin-more chaotic, individualistic, cursed for many ages - and Saidar- more collective, calmer but not weaker, its usage bound by rules and institutionalized.

 

It is a very interesting argument and it seems possible to me that RJ might have looked at it in similar fashion.

 

I still have a few problems:

1. DR is hardly chaotic now (ToM). It is Egwene who seems to be more irrational and her support among the female channelers-even Aes Sedai themselves-is far from universal.

2. The Amyrlin can hardly pretend to be the leader of all the Saidar-wielding channelers in the world and the Last Battle is a world-scale entreprise. Tuon's military assets are probably stronger than Egwene's, including channeling. There are also Wise Ones, Windfinders, the Kin and folks from Shara.

3. If I'm not mistaken, LTT also held a institutional position of power (First among the Servants, who wore the Ring of Tamyrlin). It could be argued that as a leader of pre-breaking united Aes Sedai his position was somewhat superior to that of current Amyrlin, who leads only one half of the organisation greatly diminished in power, authority, wisdom, public trust and respect.

4. Even if the Amyrlin has a good claim to influencing world affairs as such, the Dragon is a tool "made" specifically for the Last Battle. Amyrlin's mission is more comprehensive, but DR's is more important and specific. It is difficult to hit the nails better than the hammer

 

I like your analysis of Egwene's personality very much I wonder if RJ wanted to write her like that, or whether he really thought that a tendency to engage in everything you do wholeheartedly and without any reservations is personality enough.

 

 

1. the DR is inherently chaotic. All of the prophecies speak of him destroying to build, sundering bonds, and the like. Yes, now in ToM he is zen-budha-Jesus-Rand... but he is still creating chaos. Look at the tizzy he caused when he visited the Tower.

2. Up until recently, the Tower thought that the Seafolk sent all their channelers to them to be trained; they thought that any woman put out stopped channeling; and for some reason it never occured to them that the Aiel would have channelers too. So, until recently, the Amyrlin spoke for all publicly known channelers... and now that Egwene knows the others exist, she is building bridges to those groups, connecting them to the tower, and starting to speak for them too.

3. Yes, LTT was the head of the Aes Sedai organization in the AoL, but he was opposed strongly by a legislative style body that frequently countered LTT's desires. His plan to use the 7 seals was opposed by this body, which prefered to use the Choden Kal to seal away the DO and his territories until a better plan could be found. LTT's position was very much analagous to the Amyrlin's current position.

4. True, the DR is a single purpose tool... at least, that was Rand's thinking when he was trying to be hard. He did not think about what would come after or what came before. Now that he's not hard, he's realized he has to be more than just a hammer.

 

I also wonder if I'm not just projecting what I want to see in Egwene, or if RJ meant us to read what I'm reading there. We'll never know though... *sigh*

[Puny]

1. I used to believe that Rand was all about chaos, that was the image that he projected and we´d seen so far, up until ToM. True the prophecies speak of breaking ties that bind: The Dragon will

 

"shatter the world with his coming and make it anew"

 

"the world will scream in the pain of salvation"

 

"order burns to clear his path"

 

"As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men"

 

And true, when he announced himself he did cause alot of chaos, in countries that supported him, in countries that opposed him, in fighting the Forsaken. But more then chaos it is about change. And change can be done without chaos. I think DarkRand acted according to him being a weapon, crushing opposition, and uniting by force. There is a prophecy about the dragon being one with the land. If the dragon is caotic, stern, hard and unyielding so is the Rand, so Rand Sedai finding himself actually heals the land itself and brings about change without chaos. To me change is change.. chaos is people reacting to change. You can take change calmly, or react to it wildly. Rand bringing chaos to the Tower, is people reacting to him and the changes he brings, and their reaction they can choose.

 

2. I dk if I like the fact that the AS now know about the Kin, Seafolk and so on. The key point in my mind is that Egwene is to build bridges and not bonds, connecting them to the Tower I guess is alright, but connecting shouldn´t be controlling. Her starting to speak for them ( I dk what, cause Ive only read ToM-prologue) but in my mind the AS need to learn humility, and they should not speak for every channeler. It has been shown that Wise Ones, Kin and so on have other knowledge unknown to AS, other ways and their way can be as "right" as the AS way. I would like to see the Tower as a center of knowledge and guidance.. not controll.

 

3. I don´t have much to say about that, lol.

 

4. Yep, Rand has realized that he can´t be the hammer, that isn´t beneficial to what he wants to do and to what he has changed into. I´m just waiting for Egwene to change and grow =)... hopefully she will.

 

We are all projecting some things into what we are reading, it´s only human. And that´s why we have these fascinating discussions =)

[Sleeper]

2. I dk if I like the fact that the AS now know about the Kin, Seafolk and so on. The key point in my mind is that Egwene is to build bridges and not bonds, connecting them to the Tower I guess is alright, but connecting shouldn´t be controlling. Her starting to speak for them ( I dk what, cause Ive only read ToM-prologue) but in my mind the AS need to learn humility, and they should not speak for every channeler. It has been shown that Wise Ones, Kin and so on have other knowledge unknown to AS, other ways and their way can be as "right" as the AS way. I would like to see the Tower as a center of knowledge and guidance.. not controll.

Exactly. RJ's shown that the WT is not necessarily superior to other channeling factions in knowledge and ability. Wise Ones wove some flows better than Aes Sedai and Windfinders are much better than Aes Sedai at handling weather and Air, even damane are better at weaponized flows, but the WT is still set on controlling these factions. I don't like that about Aes Sedai, actually, I hate that about Aes Sedai, it's very much a reflection of my own personality. I hate people who claim authority without deserving it.

[Elan Tedronai]

Is this the same Egwene that told off everyone when she assumed the leadership of aes sedai? is this the same egwene that told silviana that attitudes to men have to change now that saidin is clean?

 

i guess i read a different book. Because the OP sounds like egwene has morphed into elaida mark 2

[Puny]

I´m only on book 5 yet, but I will look into these things when I catch up. (Dk what OP means) I never meant her to sound like Elaida, although like Elaida Egwene hasn´t changed her view of what Aes Sedai are and should be in regards to the Asha´man, the people of Randland and the view of channelers not connected to the WT. She may have told Silviana this but has she acted on it?

 

As I can´t remember the details and cause I´m in the middle of the reread I´ll have to wait until I get to the parts where Eg is the Amyrlin until I have more info. Don´t want to say something that is totally wrong just because I can´t remember certain things.

[Sharaman]

Essentially Halima placed a subtle compulsion on Egwene to make her obsessed with the Tower and "encouraging" her to use the OR.

H hadn't yet got around to making Eg "interested" in Halima and in appointing H as her temporal advisor. Obviously Halima was making the kind of play that Mordeth did in Aridhol and Ishamel with Hawkwing.

[Byzantine279]

That was debunked, Shara, she changed her mind of her own free will, though she wasn't thinking straight. I wonder how the Aes Sedai would react if you told them they are halving their lifespans.

[David Selig]

Egwene told them exactly that at the end of CoT and they were like "We don't care, we need the Oaths and would rather die than retire into the Kin". At least that's what Romanda said, the others were so shocked of the suggestion that they didn't say anything.