The Way's

[Angelhydes]

Just a quick warning here there will be spoiler here that comes at the end of Tower's of Midnight...just to let you know.

 

So I have all the books on audio and while waiting for a new book to come out I relisten to the books currently I'm on The Shadow Rising. The Trollocs have just finished their first attack on the town, and Perrin worries that there could be Tens of Thousands of trollocs out there. To witch Verin says is unlikely basicly stating that moving that many trollocs through the ways would draw the Black Wind like fly's to honey. After that my brain suddenly flashed forward to the last book when at the end Olver (not sure on the spellings sorry) accidently open's Verin's letter and it's discovered that a large host of Trollocs are moving through the ways to attack Ceamlin, and I started to wonder are the Ways clean now.

 

The Ways haven't even been opened, by a charecter in the books since The Shadow Rising, the closet thing I can recall is when Rand went to Shadar Logoth and wove a trap around the Way Gate there. I have wondered though if the Way's were cleaned after Rand cleansed the Male half of the Power. It the books it was speculated that the Ways grew dark because they were created with the male half of the power.

 

How many Trollocs would it take to burn Ceamlin, even if there are just 500 Trollocs that's still alot of Trollocs to move through the Ways at once and somehow I suspect there might be more then 500 I could be wrong. That's alot of trollocs to move through the Ways and not draw The Black Wind, so I it makes suspect that the taint is gone. I could be wrong but I was wondering if you all had thoughts to.

[Luckers]

The Ways were not cleaned by the Cleansing of saidin. RJ has confirmed this. However, in KoD roughly 100,000 Trollocs were moved through the ways in a period of no more than 28 days. Under Machin Shin's old school functions that is just as impossible as had they moved through all at once.

 

However, Machin Shin is no longer following its old school functions. Since encountering Fain in tEotW Machin Shin has undergone a slow period of change up until we last see it in book four. Since then a lot of time has passed for it to continue to change.

 

Irrespective, whatever caused this, Machin shin is not doing its job, and has not been doing it since KoD at the latest. Hence the invasion of Caemlyn is supported by prior activity in the books.

[yoniy0]

However, in KoD roughly 100,000 Trollocs were moved through the ways in a period of no more than 28 days.

That's assuming 'Sammael''s trollocs were the ones to attack Rand in Tear, but I agree that Machin Shin has been acting up since TEotW. I wonder what would happen if regular people tried using the Ways. Perhaps we'll RAFO.

[herid]

It's really not clear what exactly is going on with Machin Shin. True, it has been behaving strangely after encountering Fain, yet it seeming behaved as it should when Perrin traveled to Two Rivers in TSR and also when Isam was bringing Trollocs there. It's possible that there is a way to deal with it which involves channeling that Verin doesn't know about. When Linadrin was taking the girls to Falme via Ways in TGH she alludes to this

“You will not so much as think of the Source unless I tell you to,” Liandrin said sharply. “Why, if one such as you tried to channel here, in the Ways, you might well go as mad as a man. You have not the training to deal with the taint of those men who made this. If the Black Wind appears, I will deal with it.” She pursed her lips, studying a lump of white cheese. “Moiraine does not know so much as she thinks.”

-TGH, Ch 39

 

Also, when the Forsaken learn that someone took a hundred thousand Trollocs into the Ways in KoD they want to know who it was but none of them bat an eye at the fact that so many Trollocs are getting through the Ways at once.

[Sharaman]

The Ways were made long after the Forsaken were locked away. Except for Ishamel. And even during the Trolloc Wars when Ishy was active, the Ways were inaccessible to the Shadow because there were wards against s-Spawn and they were still clean.

Machin shin, wards fading away, corruption from saidin taint etc, all occurred relatively recently.

So it's not so likely that the Forsaken know too much about the Ways. Agree that Liandrin's statement and confidence she can handle Machin is mysterious but she wasn't put to the test. She may only think she can handle Machin Shin.

[mb]

I recall someone quoting Robert Jordan telling that the Forsaken could monitor the world to some degree during their bondage.

They seemed to know enough about the Ways to not wonder what Moridin was saying.

 

 

Part of Machin Shin's behavior seems related to Fain's Rand-tracing ability.

[herid]

The Ways were made long after the Forsaken were locked away. Except for Ishamel. And even during the Trolloc Wars when Ishy was active, the Ways were inaccessible to the Shadow because there were wards against s-Spawn and they were still clean.

Machin shin, wards fading away, corruption from saidin taint etc, all occurred relatively recently.

So it's not so likely that the Forsaken know too much about the Ways. Agree that Liandrin's statement and confidence she can handle Machin is mysterious but she wasn't put to the test. She may only think she can handle Machin Shin.

Those are good points. Still, the Forsaken and/or some Black Ajah knowing how do deal with Machin Shin can not be ruled out. Ishy at least would be familiar with the Ways and he could have told the others. Liandrin could certainly be wrong about the Ways but so could Verin and Moiraine. we don't know for sure.

[Muad Cheade]

The Ways were not cleaned by the Cleansing of saidin. RJ has confirmed this. However, in KoD roughly 100,000 Trollocs were moved through the ways in a period of no more than 28 days. Under Machin Shin's old school functions that is just as impossible as had they moved through all at once.

 

However, Machin Shin is no longer following its old school functions. Since encountering Fain in tEotW Machin Shin has undergone a slow period of change up until we last see it in book four. Since then a lot of time has passed for it to continue to change.

 

Irrespective, whatever caused this, Machin shin is not doing its job, and has not been doing it since KoD at the latest. Hence the invasion of Caemlyn is supported by prior activity in the books.

QFT

[yoniy0]

I recall someone quoting Robert Jordan telling that the Forsaken could monitor the world to some degree during their bondage.

Aginor and Balthamel alone (discounting Ishamael, naturally) could do that.

[Luckers]

However, in KoD roughly 100,000 Trollocs were moved through the ways in a period of no more than 28 days.

That's assuming 'Sammael''s trollocs were the ones to attack Rand in Tear, but I agree that Machin Shin has been acting up since TEotW. I wonder what would happen if regular people tried using the Ways. Perhaps we'll RAFO.

 

Well, I don't really think its that huge of an assumption, but yeah, I suppose it hasn't been categorically established.

 

QFT

 

What does this mean?

[Mr Ares]

However, in KoD roughly 100,000 Trollocs were moved through the ways in a period of no more than 28 days.

That's assuming 'Sammael''s trollocs were the ones to attack Rand in Tear, but I agree that Machin Shin has been acting up since TEotW. I wonder what would happen if regular people tried using the Ways. Perhaps we'll RAFO.

 

Well, I don't really think its that huge of an assumption, but yeah, I suppose it hasn't been categorically established.

 

QFT

What does this mean?

QFT means quoted for truth. It's what people put when they want to signal agreement with something, but have nothing new to add.

[Luckers]

Aaahhh. I have learned something!

[Finnssss22]

Aaahhh. I have learned something!

 

Hahaha! Reminds me of when I finally figured who the hell this OP person was everyone kept referring to

[Byzantine279]

Well, we know for a fact that the taint and Shadar Logoth destroyed one another. Machin Shin is a product of the taint and it was touched by a product of Shadar Logoth. Perhaps the change that Fain started in it led to its destruction.

[yoniy0]

Good thinking. But I think more likely he's subsumed it (which will explain why it was waiting for Rand during TGH). Perhaps all of those trollocs coming out of the Ways are now under his control? Scary.

[Val Mickey]

An idea on mostly impossible side - What if all (or at least some of) the taint has leaked into the Ways via the Gate and turned it into a fully TP zone, subsuming Machin Shin?

[Luckers]

Good thinking. But I think more likely he's subsumed it (which will explain why it was waiting for Rand during TGH). Perhaps all of those trollocs coming out of the Ways are now under his control? Scary.

 

The Black Wind opposes Fain's interests--it blocks Rand's passage through the Ways, and Fain wanted him to follow him to Toman Head.

 

More likely is that the Black Wind absorbed something of Fain's connection to Rand.

[yoniy0]

The Black Wind opposes Fain's interests--it blocks Rand's passage through the Ways, and Fain wanted him to follow him to Toman Head.

Yeah, I thought of that, but perhaps Fain didn't want him to follow right after. Perhaps he needed time to prepare a trap. After all, Rand and co. just narrowly missed Fain in Toman Head, and they ended up actually losing time the way they got there (though the portal-stone-travel did have the fortunate result of keeping Mat alive in the time it took for them to get there).

[Byzantine279]

No Yoniy0, its rather clear from his point of view (4 months later) that he wanted Rand to follow immediately after, and expected him to only be a few hours or many days behind him at the most. Waiting 4 months angered him greatly.

 

Perhaps the Black Wind absorbed his connection to Rand and his hate for rand, while disregarding his plan to kill him and instead tried it itself.

[yoniy0]

its rather clear from his point of view (4 months later) that he wanted Rand to follow immediately after, and expected him to only be a few hours or many days behind him at the most.

Ah, you are correct. TGH34 makes it clear that Fain expected Rand to follow after in a few days. Thanks. I've had hell looking up that sentence, though (and I still suspect that's not the PoV you referred to), so please try to include quotes in the future.

[Byzantine279]

I wish i could, but I don't have the books with me. :(

[Luckers]

This could indicate that a confrontation between Fain (with his Mashadar cloak) and Machin Shin could be brewing--note the ways Machin Shin has been increasingly able to push the boundary between the Ways and this world....

[Lupy]

If Machin Shin broke out of the ways, what form would it take?

[yoniy0]

If Machin Shin broke out of the ways, what form would it take?

Like a black cloud which stirs the air around it, I suppose:

He did not find himself looking at the other side of the walled square, but neither did he see the dull silver reflection he remembered. The space between the opening gates was a black so dark it seemed to make the night around it lighter. The pitch-blackness oozed out between the still-moving gates.

[...]

the grass stirred in ripples toward the walls, and dirt swirled up, sucked into the air. And in the wind a thousand insane voices seemed to cry, ten thousand, overlapping, drowning each other.

[...]

but Machin Shin was a part of the Ways; it could not leave them. Only it was flowing into the night, and the Black Wind called his name.

[...]

He hurled it all at the black bulge, standing out a full span from the Waygate, now.

[...]

in the heart of that darkness bloomed a coruscating fountain of light.

The Black Wind shrieked, ten thousand wordless howls of agony. Slowly, giving way inch by reluctant inch, the bulge lessened; slowly the oozing reversed, back into the still-open Waygate.

[FarShainMael]

Is Machin Shin a sort of relative to the black clouds we see in TGS Prologue?