I think the 'Finns can only...

[LemonPastie]

see the memories of the future.

 

I saw someone mention this in a thread a few weeks ago and there was no discussion around the fact but after recently reading Mat's first trip through the doorway I'm pretty set on the idea.

 

The basic outline of the trip is;

Mat heads through says howdy to his guide and they set off

the walk for a while

Mat threatens his guide

Mat gets dropped off in the room with pillars

Mat then outlines the story so far

Mat goes on to ask his first question

Things heat up and Mat asks his other questions and gets kicked out

 

We have heard that the Finn's ability isn't related to Min's ability to 'see glimpses of the pattern', so we can rule out the Finn's seeing the pattern itself. However, I believe when Mat first got into that room, the finns could see the rest of his life, but nothing up to the point he got there. This theory would also explain why Mat doesn't have any memories given to him of being a child, and a lot of memories of dying.

 

When Mat went to the TOG, the Finn's could then only see from that point on for him, although they had already experienced the intervening time on his previous trips. Maybe they held Moiraine because they knew Mat would be back for her and would give them his eye, if they had killed her, he wouldn't have given them all that raw emotion.

 

So... do the Finn's only see the future 'memories'?

[Byzantine279]

If they could be certain of the future they would not have attempted to stop him, since he was certain to escape (as he DID) and they lost several of their own trying to stop him. They seem to have some form of limited precognition. They might be able to "see" the past of the people who enter their realm, but it wouldn't be recorded since it seems to be like a video tape, you might know what happened ebfore you turned it on, but someone you give the tape to will only know what happened afterwords.

[FarShainMael]

'Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face' KOD36). This was one of Mat's memories, of someone whose dying view was of HW. Mat also remembers other deaths, and concludes that since those memories could not possibly have been collected from the person entering through the gateway, the 'finns must have been looking through their 'specimen's' eyes; and therefore through his own eyes. Whether it's that or whether it's because the 'finns foresaw the man's death when he entered, I don't know. Interesting, though.

[killuliu]

'Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face' KOD36). This was one of Mat's memories, of someone whose dying view was of HW.

 

I actually don't think so (and I think it was pointed out in the books): Mat remember's Hawking's face, not from other people's memories, but from his own memories of Falme: he summoned Hawking using the Horn, and thus has actually seen him. But this was a bit offtopic :)

 

And it has been said, that the future can be changed, and thus it is impossible that Finns could see the absolute future, as it doesn't exist. The world depends on one's choices and it can't really be predicted.

[Majsju]

 

 

And it has been said, that the future can be changed, and thus it is impossible that Finns could see the absolute future, as it doesn't exist. The world depends on one's choices and it can't really be predicted.

 

By that logic, we should also throw Foretellings, Dreams, Perrins T'A'R "windows" and Mins viewings out the window. Which would include throwing out the Karaethon Cycle. Something that would radically change some of the key parts of the story.

[killuliu]

By that logic, we should also throw Foretellings, Dreams, Perrins T'A'R "windows" and Mins viewings out the window. Which would include throwing out the Karaethon Cycle. Something that would radically change some of the key parts of the story.

 

But they are not absolute future (well actually, Min's viewings are pretty close): one doesn't know when it will happen, exactly how and they are really hard to understand. Prophecies and Dreaming (in which I include Perrin's "windows") are more like glimpses of the most likely future (Rand could have been killed (and most likely was in other worlds) before he could have fulfilled any prophecies) and are not that specific. And think of the three rings: they gave glimpses of (all) possible futures, not just one, so that indicates that one can decide and thus change the future (of that one world). Of course, for the sake of the story, all of the prophecies will come true (most at least), but still there is a chance that they would not: what if Rand would have chosen Lanfear during the scene in Cairhien's docks, as Moiraine saw in the rings he could? Then most of the prophecies would have remained unfulfilled and the future would have been very different.

 

And prophecies, Min's viewings etc. don't take sides on how things will happen. They just claim that things will happen. For example, if Min sees that someone will die, he doesn't know when or how, so that's not really specific. Also the prophecies speak like "On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man." so it doesn't really tell much: how did the maiden get to the slopes, did she just walk from the Wastes, would there happen to be a war with aiels at the same time and she would just happen to be pregnant and give birth when they are next to the mountain? So one really can't know how and when the prophecy will be fulfilled before it has been fulfilled and maybe not even then (there are lots of prophecies that have been fulfilled, and then afterwards noticed "Oh, I have actually fulfilled that already").

 

But if Finns could know the person's whole life before it happens, they could tell exactly what he is going to do and when, and that would pretty much ruin the freedom of choice in the WoT universe.

I don't have any better theory of the Finns, and I kind of like this, but I think this theory has its problems :)

 

A thought occurred: would it be possible that in this world, the freedom of choice doesn't exist? Would it be so, that in the big picture, there is a freedom of choice, but when it comes to single world, its fate is already decided? There would be billions of worlds to account for every single possible choice. Then when person goes to meet Finns, they actually see what life has for him/her, as it is decided beforehand. But that would only be true for that person in that world, if Mat of any other world would visit Finns, he would get very different answers.

But then again, I think the portal stones would cause some problems with this, but I missed the thought of it, and I'm running out of time for now :)

[herid]

see the memories of the future.

 

I saw someone mention this in a thread a few weeks ago and there was no discussion around the fact but after recently reading Mat's first trip through the doorway I'm pretty set on the idea.

 

The basic outline of the trip is;

Mat heads through says howdy to his guide and they set off

the walk for a while

Mat threatens his guide

Mat gets dropped off in the room with pillars

Mat then outlines the story so far

Mat goes on to ask his first question

Things heat up and Mat asks his other questions and gets kicked out

 

We have heard that the Finn's ability isn't related to Min's ability to 'see glimpses of the pattern', so we can rule out the Finn's seeing the pattern itself. However, I believe when Mat first got into that room, the finns could see the rest of his life, but nothing up to the point he got there. This theory would also explain why Mat doesn't have any memories given to him of being a child, and a lot of memories of dying.

 

When Mat went to the TOG, the Finn's could then only see from that point on for him, although they had already experienced the intervening time on his previous trips. Maybe they held Moiraine because they knew Mat would be back for her and would give them his eye, if they had killed her, he wouldn't have given them all that raw emotion.

 

So... do the Finn's only see the future 'memories'?

I think that's a wrong interpretation. There are two kinds of Finns. Aelfinn can see the future and answer questions. But they were not the ones that gave Mat his memories. He got those from Eelfinn who fulfill wishes. To satisfy your theory we need to assume that they can see future as well. This is not implied anywhere and I consider it very unlikely that the Finn abilities would be duplicated in such a way. I'm sure Mat is right and the Finns establish a connection with people who come along and can see through their eyes till their deaths.

'Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face' KOD36). This was one of Mat's memories, of someone whose dying view was of HW.

 

I actually don't think so (and I think it was pointed out in the books): Mat remember's Hawking's face, not from other people's memories, but from his own memories of Falme: he summoned Hawking using the Horn, and thus has actually seen him. But this was a bit offtopic :)

 

that's wrong. this is specifically mentioned in the scene where the subject comes up.

Tuon let out a long breath that did not sound won over in the slightest. “Do you remember Hawkwing’s face, Toy?” Mistress Anan blinked in surprise, and Selucia sat up on the bed frowning. At him. Why would she frown at him? Tuon just continued to look at him, hands folded in her lap, as cool and collected as a Wisdom at Sunday.

 

Mat’s smile felt frozen. Light, what did she know? How could she know anything? He lay beneath the burning sun, holding his side with both hands, trying to keep the last of life from leaking out and wondering whether there was any reason to hold on. Aideshar was finished, after this day’s work. A shadow blotted the sun for an instant, and then a tall man in armor crouched beside him, helmet tucked under his arm, dark deep-set eyes framing a hooked nose. “You fought well against me today, Culain, and many days past,” that memorable voice said. “Will you live with me in peace?” With his last breath, he laughed in Artur Hawkwing’s face. He hated to remember dying. A dozen other encounters skittered through his mind, too, ancient memories that were his, now. Artur Paendrag had been a difficult man to get along with even before the wars started.

-CoT, Ch 3

[killuliu]

that's wrong. this is specifically mentioned in the scene where the subject comes up.

Tuon let out a long breath that did not sound won over in the slightest. “Do you remember Hawkwing’s face, Toy?” Mistress Anan blinked in surprise, and Selucia sat up on the bed frowning. At him. Why would she frown at him? Tuon just continued to look at him, hands folded in her lap, as cool and collected as a Wisdom at Sunday.

 

Mat’s smile felt frozen. Light, what did she know? How could she know anything? He lay beneath the burning sun, holding his side with both hands, trying to keep the last of life from leaking out and wondering whether there was any reason to hold on. Aideshar was finished, after this day’s work. A shadow blotted the sun for an instant, and then a tall man in armor crouched beside him, helmet tucked under his arm, dark deep-set eyes framing a hooked nose. “You fought well against me today, Culain, and many days past,” that memorable voice said. “Will you live with me in peace?” With his last breath, he laughed in Artur Hawkwing’s face. He hated to remember dying. A dozen other encounters skittered through his mind, too, ancient memories that were his, now. Artur Paendrag had been a difficult man to get along with even before the wars started.

-CoT, Ch 3

 

I stand corrected :) I somehow have always assumed that would have been one of Mat's own memories, but no :D

[Majsju]

I think we are using different definitions of what absolute future means in the context of the books.

 

The way RJ has set this up, key events are set in stone, but people have a degree of freedom when it comes to how to reach these events. And all the ways to see the future, including the finns, are focusing on key events.

For example, Mat would always have gone to Rhuidean and entered the doorway. He would always have found himself commanding a small force that would later grow into his private army. He would always have found himself stuck in Ebou Dar, he would always have kidnapped Tuon, and then released her. And so on. But he would have had some freedom in how to reach these events.

 

And then, there is of course what Tam told Rand - You may not always be able to chose what to do, but you can always chose why you do it.

[FarShainMael]

'Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face' KOD36). This was one of Mat's memories, of someone whose dying view was of HW.

 

I actually don't think so (and I think it was pointed out in the books): Mat remember's Hawking's face, not from other people's memories, but from his own memories of Falme: he summoned Hawking using the Horn, and thus has actually seen him. But this was a bit offtopic :)

 

Look back at CoT3:

She{Tuon} asks if he remembers Hawkwing's face and Selucia stares at him.1 Mat remembers Hawkwing defeating Culain in Aldeshar, but he lies, saying no.

 

Edited: Herid got there first!

And it's not really OT. Mat thought that the 'finns were looking through his eyes. It's equally possible they gave him 'future memories'.

[herid]

 

And it's not really OT. Mat thought that the 'finns were looking through his eyes. It's equally possible they gave him 'future memories'.

sorry, what do you mean by 'future memories'?

NM, I was being dense. I guess you mean this in the sense of the original poster meant.

[FarShainMael]

Of course.

[Finnssss22]

I think one must also take into consideration that we're not talking about a linear timeline here either, it's circular.

 

We don't don't know how long the Finns live, nor do we know exactly how time passes for them.

Maybe they aren't seeing the future at all, maybe they have seen the wheel turn many times before and are relating what they have already seen.

How many times have the Finns seen the 3rd age go by?

 

"The wheel of time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."

[yoniy0]

Are they omniscient, then? Or does the Gambler, the Son of Battles, always marry the 'Daughter of the Nine Moons'? RJ seemed to hint that the minutia of each 3rd Age changes from turn to turn, such as geopolitical situation, and in particular the titles in use.

[Finnssss22]

Are they omniscient, then? Or does the Gambler, the Son of Battles, always marry the 'Daughter of the Nine Moons'? RJ seemed to hint that the minutia of each 3rd Age changes from turn to turn, such as geopolitical situation, and in particular the titles in use.

 

Calling Mat the Gambler or the Son of Battles is not the same as calling Tuon the Daughter of the Nine Moons though.

The Gambler/Son of Battles is what he is known as through every age. Tuon, The Daughter of the Nine Moons is simply what she goes by in this turning of the Wheel, no different than the name Mat Cauthon.

Recognizing who The Gambler/Son of Battles will marry and then relating that info in a form/name he would know in this turning is not an unreasonable assumption imo.

[yoniy0]

My intention was that, having identified Mat (I didn't want to refer to him by his name, which undoubtedly changes over the ages), they couldn't have known the title of his destined wife, unless they have means of spying on Randland (hence my use of the term 'omniscient'). Not if they merely remember past turnings.

[Finnssss22]

My intention was that, having identified Mat (I didn't want to refer to him by his name, which undoubtedly changes over the ages), they couldn't have known the title of his destined wife, unless they have means of spying on Randland (hence my use of the term 'omniscient'). Not if they merely remember past turnings.

 

Gotcha and yeah we just don't know enough to confirm or deny either theory.

I'm not saying that I even endorse this theory, it's just something that has gone through my mind before and never been able to dismiss from being a possibility.

[killuliu]

I think we are using different definitions of what absolute future means in the context of the books.

 

The way RJ has set this up, key events are set in stone, but people have a degree of freedom when it comes to how to reach these events. And all the ways to see the future, including the finns, are focusing on key events.

For example, Mat would always have gone to Rhuidean and entered the doorway. He would always have found himself commanding a small force that would later grow into his private army. He would always have found himself stuck in Ebou Dar, he would always have kidnapped Tuon, and then released her. And so on. But he would have had some freedom in how to reach these events.

 

And then, there is of course what Tam told Rand - You may not always be able to chose what to do, but you can always chose why you do it.

 

But we know there is at least one world (and I think someone once said there are worlds for every possible decision (so the amount of worlds would grow in exponential scale) where Trollocs won the Trolloc war, and that nothing lives in that world (besides those Seanchan creatures which's name I can't remember) and so the Dragon couldn't be reborn in that world and no prophecies could be fulfilled (though they were foreseen, as they were foreseen before the Trolloc wars, weren't they?). But I don't really know, I need to think about this tomorrow when I have too much time :D

[SylvanFox]

Maybe the Daughter of the Nine Moons isn't always a royal title.

[Sharaman]

About the Finns, I'd say

1) They can extract and record memories and keep a link to such visitors to download the future experiences of those who've visited Finnland - evidence Mat's memories of people dying in other locations. But it's probable that the download occurs after the person's death, or in real-time, not before it all happens.

 

2) They can see bits and pieces of the futures of those who visit them - not necessarily of the entire WoTland sequence of events, or even of everything in that person's life. Note that the Finn predictions for Mat at Tear ended with Mat's sacrifice of his eye. He's already fulfilled the lot - the Finn predictions don't make it clear whether he will actually manage to save the World; just that he will give up "1/2 the light" for that purpose.

 

3) Their actions in trying to stop him ought not to occur if they knew he was predestined to escape ToG. This suggests that they don't see the entire future timeline of even those who visit them - they probably download it as it happens in realtime or later, after that person's death.

[EvilSocrates]

I actually figured that the 'Finns get access to your memories in real-time as their part of the bargain for getting your three questions using the "treaty" doorways. They seem to sniff around in your head while you are there regardless, but they must get something more than that to agree to the red-doorway treaty, given how, ahem, hard a bargain they drive if you are there through the ToG. My guess: they get to sniff around after you leave too in exchange.

[mb]

So... do the Finn's only see the future 'memories'?

That scene where Moiraine mentions the terangreal seems to indicate that the Aelfinn could see past/present/future.

 

 

And it has been said, that the future can be changed, and thus it is impossible that Finns could see the absolute future, as it doesn't exist. The world depends on one's choices and it can't really be predicted.

Like that other poster, I would put Aelfinn predictions in the same category as Dreams/Foretellings/Viewings/etc.

Such events cannot be prevented by the person's choices. Only Pattern's destruction can prevent Prophecy.

Though person's choices could probably change the when/where/why/how of fulfillment, maybe even the what/who; but never the "if".

[killuliu]

Like that other poster, I would put Aelfinn predictions in the same category as Dreams/Foretellings/Viewings/etc.

Such events cannot be prevented by the person's choices. Only Pattern's destruction can prevent Prophecy.

Though person's choices could probably change the when/where/why/how of fulfillment, maybe even the what/who; but never the "if".

 

But we know there is at least one world (and I think someone once said there are worlds for every possible decision (so the amount of worlds would grow in exponential scale) where Trollocs won the Trolloc war, and that nothing lives in that world (besides those Seanchan creatures which's name I can't remember) and so the Dragon couldn't be reborn in that world and no prophecies could be fulfilled (though they were foreseen, as they were foreseen before the Trolloc wars, weren't they?). But I don't really know, I need to think about this tomorrow when I have too much time :D

 

But ok, it might be that the prophecies are world dependent, again it comes down to what "absolute future" is. And the first quote of mine was just to disagree with that the Finns could see the whole life of the person (which would be seeing the absolute future)

[yoniy0]

BTW we should be careful when bunching Dreams along with the rest. Mostly they're just of "possible futures", and sometimes they only show you things about the present (as in Egwene getting a current tally of the Forsaken, for example).

[Din]

We have heard that the Finn's ability isn't related to Min's ability to 'see glimpses of the pattern', so we can rule out the Finn's seeing the pattern itself.

“Should I go home to help my people?” he asked finally.

Three sets of slitted eyes lifted from him - reluctantly, it seemed - and studied the air above his head.

Finally the woman on the left said, “You must go to Rhuidean.”

As soon as she spoke their eyes all dropped to him again,