Probably a beginner's question (about how the cyclical timeline works)

[Kestrel]

Also, I wanted to repeat Dan's suggestion, that you seemed to have brushed off. The creation of the Pattern and the Wheel (if they indeed were created) could've happened outside of time itself, making it unnecessary that they'd have a beginning. The past may well be infinite as well as the future.

I haven't brushed it off at all. I've merely pointed out that it is not possible for the Wheel to exist outside of Time.

 

Here's why: In order for motion to exist, in order for change to exist, Time must also exist. I WAS over there, now I AM here, and soon I WILL BE elsewhere. Without Time, the concept of changing position, or changing direction, or even revising the ideas in my head, would be completely meaningless.

 

The Wheel turns. The Wheel has motion. The Wheel changes position in an orderly fashion, transiting sequentially through the seven ages. The motion of the Wheel is inseparable from the Wheel itself. Turning is part of the inherent nature of the Wheel. It was in the Second Age, now it is the Third Age, and it will be in the Fourth Age. Past - present - future. Time.

 

If the Wheel existed outside of Time it could not turn, because there would be nowhere -no past- to turn from, and nowhere -no future- to turn to. And yet the Wheel does turn. It always has turned from the moment it was created.

 

Therefore, the Wheel is dependent upon the existence of Time, and can not exist outside of Time.

 

If you don't quite understand the concept, don't fret too much. It is very difficult sometimes, when you are used to seeing everything from one perspective (such as past-present-future), to imagine things from a completely different perspective.

 

In truth, I've found that folks who spend less time imagining alternative possibilities tend to be very strong in another excellent characteristic: dependable consistency. The world need both types of people, the dreamers to expand our horizons, and the consistent performers to keep everything functioning in an orderly fashion.

[yoniy0]

Wow, okay. Nobody suggested that the Wheel or Pattern exist outside of time. Only that the Creator might, and that the act of creation was likewise conducted. Time created along with the Wheel (indeed, without the Wheel, what meaning does time have?), hence there is no 'moment of creation' in time, and it can span backwards endlessly.

[Bluedust9]

If you don't quite understand the concept, don't fret too much. It is very difficult sometimes, when you are used to seeing everything from one perspective (such as past-present-future), to imagine things from a completely different perspective.

 

In truth, I've found that folks who spend less time imagining alternative possibilities tend to be very strong in another excellent characteristic: dependable consistency. The world need both types of people, the dreamers to expand our horizons, and the consistent performers to keep everything functioning in an orderly fashion.

 

Damn, you come off sounding awful here. Good job.

[Vermillion]

If you don't quite understand the concept, don't fret too much. It is very difficult sometimes, when you are used to seeing everything from one perspective (such as past-present-future), to imagine things from a completely different perspective.

 

In truth, I've found that folks who spend less time imagining alternative possibilities tend to be very strong in another excellent characteristic: dependable consistency. The world need both types of people, the dreamers to expand our horizons, and the consistent performers to keep everything functioning in an orderly fashion.

 

Damn, you come off sounding awful here. Good job.

 

We our bound to the concept of time because our existence is bound to the motion of time. If time didn't exist and didn't move neither would we essentially. The creator just is no beginning and end. And the creator I assume did everything at once if that's how you put it because he exist outside of time.

 

He created a seemless infinite loop of 7 age turnings that was created all at the moment of creation. That means time moves forward on Randland but the events and all infinite all happened at once at the same time.

[Bluedust9]

If you don't quite understand the concept, don't fret too much. It is very difficult sometimes, when you are used to seeing everything from one perspective (such as past-present-future), to imagine things from a completely different perspective.

 

In truth, I've found that folks who spend less time imagining alternative possibilities tend to be very strong in another excellent characteristic: dependable consistency. The world need both types of people, the dreamers to expand our horizons, and the consistent performers to keep everything functioning in an orderly fashion.

 

Damn, you come off sounding awful here. Good job.

 

We our bound to the concept of time because our existence is bound to the motion of time. If time didn't exist and didn't move neither would we essentially. The creator just is no beginning and end. And the creator I assume did everything at once if that's how you put it because he exist outside of time.

 

He created a seemless infinite loop of 7 age turnings that was created all at the moment of creation. That means time moves forward on Randland but the events and all infinite all happened at once at the same time.

 

I just meant it sounded very condescending.

[Vermillion]

If you don't quite understand the concept, don't fret too much. It is very difficult sometimes, when you are used to seeing everything from one perspective (such as past-present-future), to imagine things from a completely different perspective.

 

In truth, I've found that folks who spend less time imagining alternative possibilities tend to be very strong in another excellent characteristic: dependable consistency. The world need both types of people, the dreamers to expand our horizons, and the consistent performers to keep everything functioning in an orderly fashion.

 

Damn, you come off sounding awful here. Good job.

 

We our bound to the concept of time because our existence is bound to the motion of time. If time didn't exist and didn't move neither would we essentially. The creator just is no beginning and end. And the creator I assume did everything at once if that's how you put it because he exist outside of time.

 

He created a seemless infinite loop of 7 age turnings that was created all at the moment of creation. That means time moves forward on Randland but the events and all infinite all happened at once at the same time.

 

I just meant it sounded very condescending.

 

I wasn't directing my post at you. I just adding to the conversation.

[Kestrel]

We our bound to the concept of time because our existence is bound to the motion of time. If time didn't exist and didn't move neither would we essentially. The creator just is no beginning and end. And the creator I assume did everything at once if that's how you put it because he exist outside of time.

 

He created a seemless infinite loop of 7 age turnings that was created all at the moment of creation. That means time moves forward on Randland but the events and all infinite all happened at once at the same time.

You've got it right.

 

To the Creator, who is outside of Time, everything just "is." That which Randlanders perceive as the turnings of the Wheel are, in the Creator's perspective, simply one motionless blip. Yet the Creator (and the Dark One also) has the ability to reach inside that "blip" and interact with the World of the Wheel.

 

What gnaws at the Dark One (who is also outside of Time) is this simple fact: The "blip" exists, and inside that "blip" are Time and a turning Wheel. The "blip" is what the Dark One wishes to not exist. Why? Maybe the Dark One just doesn't like being upstaged. Maybe pondering the paradox between "outside of time" and "inside of Time" gives the Dark One a first-class migrane headache. Maybe the Dark One can't abide that "overstretched" feeling he gets when he crosses the border of the "blip", feels his shoulder being dislocated when he grabs the land, and gets his chin whacked by the turning Wheel cogs. Who knows?

 

The difference between the World of the Wheel and the world we live in is that in Randland everything eventually returns back to its original state with only slight variations, again and again and again. A limited few of the Randlanders including Rand himself are able to perceive this and remember past lives. To ordinary Randlanders the world seems to be much like ours; life and Time appear to travel in a straight line with no recollection of previous lives and no tangible certainty of future lives. Any "life" beyond the ordinary time/life-perspective of an ordinary Randlander is a mere theological exercise.

[yoniy0]

What gnaws at the Dark One (who is also outside of Time)

Not so:

EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.

And you might consider phrasing yourself differently. There's no right or wrong here, at least not that any of us can definitely know. There's only what we think and believe.

[Kestrel]

What gnaws at the Dark One (who is also outside of Time)

Not so:

EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.

And you might consider phrasing yourself differently. There's no right or wrong here, at least not that any of us can definitely know. There's only what we think and believe.

Perhaps not, but there is such a thing as getting misleading impressions when taking quotes out of context. The full text of what you quoted is this:

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.

 

What the Dark One was saying was that since Rahvin's death occurred within Time, with Time's one-way forward flow interrupted by balefire, he could not retrieve Rahvin's soul. The Dark One was saying he could not travel backwards to the moment before the balefiring and alter the past.

 

For evidence that the Creator and the Dark One exist outside of Time, I'd suggest this item posted by Barid:

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

You're free to disagree with me, of course. But I'll stick to the way I've phrased my arguments.

[yoniy0]

What the Dark One was saying was that since Rahvin's death occurred within Time, with Time's one-way forward flow interrupted by balefire, he could not retrieve Rahvin's soul. The Dark One was saying he could not travel backwards to the moment before the balefiring and alter the past.

Actually, RJ went on record saying that the reason BF usually prevents the DO from transmigrating a soul is because he has to be ready to grab it the moment it's freed, but BF makes the subject pass before it hits him/her. Therefore His words most likely mean exactly what they seem to - that He cannot step outside of time (that is, try to grab the soul at the moment it's actually freed, since back then he didn't yet know that it will get BFed).

 

For evidence that the Creator and the Dark One exist outside of Time, I'd suggest this item posted by Barid:

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

They are outside of the Pattern, which isn't the same as outside of time.

 

Naturally, you may disagree if you choose to. I merely strive to change your mind by way of offering evidence.

[Kestrel]

They are outside of the Pattern, which isn't the same as outside of time.

 

Naturally, you may disagree if you choose to. I merely strive to change your mind by way of offering evidence.

Then we shall agree to disagree on some of the conclusions.

 

There are three potential realms of existence. I think I can comfortably say that in RJ's universe which requires opposites and duality, the Creator and the Dark One must both be members of the same realm.

-- Realm #1: Outside of both Time and the Wheel, a realm where the Creator and the Dark One are greater than everything else, including Time, and Time is a creation of the Creator (This is where I have been arguing from)

-- Realm #2: Inside of Time but outside of the Wheel, a realm where Time is independent of (and possibly greater than) the Creator and the Dark One, but where they are dependent on and bound by Time, a realm where the Creator and the Dark One are greater than the Wheel, but not greater than than Time (which appears to be what you are saying)

-- Realm #3: Inside of both Time and the Wheel

 

Absent an input from RJ, which he is not likely to provide anytime soon, I think we have come to an impasse. Rather than endlessly rehashing our arguments, I shall simply thank you for posting so that we may leave the discussion as friends.

[yoniy0]

Yeah, okay. I just want to say that I think you're making a mistake by confusing the Wheel with the Pattern. Neither the Creator nor the Dark One are part of the Pattern, this we know according to Verin's and RJ's quotes. The Wheel weaves the Pattern, but in itself isn't part of it either, as far as I understands. Since it does turn, after a fashion, we must assume that it exists within time. Perhaps the DO exists in a similar manner, or perhaps He didn't used to but then the Creator Bound him that way. Or, perhaps the Creator exists within time as well, making it unlikely that the Pattern has an infinite past.