Dreaming and strength in Spirit

[Taura-Tierno]

I've seen lots of references on various boards and communities that Egwene must be strong in Spirit, since she's a Dreamer, and Dreaming "is a thing of Spirit", as Moiraine put it. Is that true? I cannot recall it being mentioned in the books that she's strong in Spirit. That she's strong in Earth, yes. That she "hardly has to think twice" when using Water and Air. But not really anything about Spirit.

 

Have I forgotten something? Or is it just an assumption people make, that Dreaming means you're strong in Spirit? Unless there's something to quantify it, it seems as, as Dreaming is not even a Talent restricted to channelers.

[herid]

Moiraine is definitely not an expert on the issue. The Aiel dreamwalkers are though. Dreamwalking is not related to the OP for sure. Dreaming itself likely isn't either. Egwene comments on this in CoS Ch 10 after meeting the Wise Ones.

 

Aes Sedai called this Dreaming, and the women who could do it Dreamers, all long dead but her, yet it had no more to do with the One Power than dreamwalking did.

 

At this point Egwene is a trained Dreamer and a dreamwalker so I assume this is what the Aiel dreamwalkers told her and in this case I would take their opinion over Moiraine's.

 

In fact we have a more definite proof of this. Avi told Rand about a dream the dreamwalkers had about him

 

Bair and Amys dreamed of you cutting the wetlands in two with a sword

-LoC, Ch 19

 

Since Bair can't channel that proves that Dreaming is not related to OP.

[MasterAblar]

Moiraine is definitely not an expert on the issue. The Aiel dreamwalkers are though. Dreamwalking is not related to the OP for sure. Dreaming itself likely isn't either. Egwene comments on this in CoS Ch 10 after meeting the Wise Ones.

 

Aes Sedai called this Dreaming, and the women who could do it Dreamers, all long dead but her, yet it had no more to do with the One Power than dreamwalking did.

 

At this point Egwene is a trained Dreamer and a dreamwalker so I assume this is what the Aiel dreamwalkers told her and in this case I would take their opinion over Moiraine's.

 

In fact we have a more definite proof of this. Avi told Rand about a dream the dreamwalkers had about him

 

Bair and Amys dreamed of you cutting the wetlands in two with a sword

-LoC, Ch 19

 

Since Bair can't channel that proves that Dreaming is not related to OP.

 

I'd also add that if dreaming was a thing of spirit, then Rand should be pretty talented in it, as he is super strong in spirit. As he does not seem to have any talent in dreaming, spirit apparently doesn't have much, or anything at all, to do with dreaming.

[Sharaman]

Spirit is the only thing that can be channeled by somebody who is asleep but not in TAR.

In TAR, everything can be channeled.

A Dreamwalker is somebody who can enter TAR without channeling - Perrin for instance, is a Dreamwalker and so presumably are Elyas and Noam.

A Dreamer is somebody who has prophetic dreams (which are not in TAR) - again, Bair and Perrin, who cannot channel, can both Dream.

[Finnssss22]

Spirit is the only thing that can be channeled by somebody who is asleep but not in TAR.

In TAR, everything can be channeled.

A Dreamwalker is somebody who can enter TAR without channeling - Perrin for instance, is a Dreamwalker and so presumably are Elyas and Noam.

A Dreamer is somebody who has prophetic dreams (which are not in TAR) - again, Bair and Perrin, who cannot channel, can both Dream.

 

Not sure if you want to go as far as calling Perrin an actual Dreamwalker, we have no evidence that he can find others dreams or enter them.

[PhoenixUK]

I think moiraine's reference can be explained as meaning that the type of channeling required to enter the world of dreams is spirit - dreaming terangreal that need channeling use spirit to work. the hedgehog that trapped faile used a burst of spirit to activate and trap her. But yes, her knowledge of Dreaming was limited. Clearly Dreaming does not require channeling in all instances. Egwene while shielded by Black Ajah in Tear was still able to access TAR via the stone ring, and as others mention, there are Wise One Dreamers who cannot channel.

[rand4747]

Spirit is the only thing that can be channeled by somebody who is asleep but not in TAR.

In TAR, everything can be channeled.

A Dreamwalker is somebody who can enter TAR without channeling - Perrin for instance, is a Dreamwalker and so presumably are Elyas and Noam.

A Dreamer is somebody who has prophetic dreams (which are not in TAR) - again, Bair and Perrin, who cannot channel, can both Dream.

 

Not sure if you want to go as far as calling Perrin an actual Dreamwalker, we have no evidence that he can find others dreams or enter them.

 

 

Perrin could probably learn to do that if he was taught, not that any female dreamwalker ever would

[mb]

Moiraine's comment, I guess it is this one::

"I have remembered the little I know of what connects a carved hedgehog with Spirit. The carving is a ter'angreal last studied by Corianin Nedeal, the last Dreamer the Tower had. The Talent called Dreaming is a thing of Spirit, Perrin. It is not a thing I have ever studied; my Talents lie in other ways. I believe that Zarine has been trapped inside a dream, perhaps even the World of Dreams, Tel'aran'rhiod. All that is her is inside that Dream. All. A Dreamer sends only a part of herself. If Zarine does not return soon, her body will die. Perhaps she will live on in the dream. I do not know."

Dragon Reborn Chapter 53

[PhoenixUK]

 

 

Perrin could probably learn to do that if he was taught, not that any female dreamwalker ever would

Exactly. He can enter TAR, manipulate it, and sees "windows" in TAR which lead to the same kind of foretellings that other Dreamers see. He's not that far off being a Dreamer.

[Sharaman]

Spirit is the only thing that can be channeled by somebody who is asleep but not in TAR.

In TAR, everything can be channeled.

A Dreamwalker is somebody who can enter TAR without channeling - Perrin for instance, is a Dreamwalker and so presumably are Elyas and Noam.

A Dreamer is somebody who has prophetic dreams (which are not in TAR) - again, Bair and Perrin, who cannot channel, can both Dream.

 

Not sure if you want to go as far as calling Perrin an actual Dreamwalker, we have no evidence that he can find others dreams or enter them.

 

 

Perrin could probably learn to do that if he was taught, not that any female dreamwalker ever would

He can enter their nightmares and he does have prophetic dreams. Ticks all the boxes I think.

[yoniy0]

Not sure if you want to go as far as calling Perrin an actual Dreamwalker, we have no evidence that he can find others dreams or enter them.

Perrin could probably learn to do that if he was taught, not that any female dreamwalker ever would

Exactly. He can enter TAR, manipulate it, and sees "windows" in TAR which lead to the same kind of foretellings that other Dreamers see. He's not that far off being a Dreamer.

He can enter their nightmares and he does have prophetic dreams. Ticks all the boxes I think.

I'm with Finnssss. He can only enter tel'aran'rhiod that we know of, which is a thing of wolves and not the One Power. He sees visions while in the World of Dreams, but his regular dreams aren't prophetic. Chalk that down to a thing of wolves as well, unless we saw one of the women Dreamers do the same? Perhaps he isn't a Dreamer as well, but simply a wolf-brother, which is sometimes similar.

[herid]

I'm not sure if just being a wolfbrother gives one all the abilities that Perrin has. Does Elyas have them too? Is he staying clear of TAR by choice? that's what he seemed to be saying in his conversation with Perrin about it. in any case he is never mentioned as having anything like prophetic visions that Perrin has sometimes.

[yoniy0]

in any case he is never mentioned as having anything like prophetic visions that Perrin has sometimes.

Nor did Perrin ever tell anyone about them.

[herid]

in any case he is never mentioned as having anything like prophetic visions that Perrin has sometimes.

Nor did Perrin ever tell anyone about them.

ok, that's a good point. still we as readers are never told of Elyas having such abilities either. In general, I must say I find it extremely strange that Perrin and Elyas never had a real discussion about Perrin's struggle with the wolves. There is this brief conversation at the end but that's it. Elyas was around Perrin for a number of books. Perrin broods for so long it's excruciating. He consults Hopper often but he never asks Elyas for help. I find it inexplicable. If anybody can understand what he was going through it's Elyas.

[dholm]

Spirit is the only thing that can be channeled by somebody who is asleep but not in TAR.

In TAR, everything can be channeled.

A Dreamwalker is somebody who can enter TAR without channeling - Perrin for instance, is a Dreamwalker and so presumably are Elyas and Noam.

A Dreamer is somebody who has prophetic dreams (which are not in TAR) - again, Bair and Perrin, who cannot channel, can both Dream.

 

Not quite. A Dreamer (note the capital) is simply the Aes Sedai version of a dreamwalker (no capital). There is no difference. The Aes Sedai believe it is a thing of the One Power, but it is not. Bair is a dreamwalker, meaning she has prophetic dreams, and can enter Tel'aran'rhiod as well as other people's dreams. They can also bring others into Tel'aran'rhiod or their own dreams (perhaps even other people's dreams).

 

A wolfbrother can enter Tel'aran'rhiod in much the same way that a dreamwalker can, but I think that is as far as the connection goes. Perrin's prophetic visions only appear to him in Tel'aran'rhiod, whereas a dreamwalker has actual prophetic dreams. Wolves have a very strong connection to Tel'aran'rhiod -- that's probably why wolfbrothers can enter it. But they do not necessarily have the same Talent that dreamwalkers do. When he enters nightmares, he is still inside Tel'aran'rhiod -- he does not actually enter someone else's dream, but a nightmare left behind by someone who briefly visited Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

It is possible Perrin could learn to enter others' dreams, but so far he has never appeared in the place where they can be seen.

[Finnssss22]

in any case he is never mentioned as having anything like prophetic visions that Perrin has sometimes.

Nor did Perrin ever tell anyone about them.

ok, that's a good point. still we as readers are never told of Elyas having such abilities either. In general, I must say I find it extremely strange that Perrin and Elyas never had a real discussion about Perrin's struggle with the wolves. There is this brief conversation at the end but that's it. Elyas was around Perrin for a number of books. Perrin broods for so long it's excruciating. He consults Hopper often but he never asks Elyas for help. I find it inexplicable. If anybody can understand what he was going through it's Elyas.

 

 

Might be as simple as where their respective "balances" lay and how they choose to enter T'A'R or what they choose to enter T'A'R as.

Nome's balance is fully as a wolf in both worlds. Elyas' balance is more wolf than human and it would be a pretty good assumption that he enters T'A'R as the wolf, fully embracing that part of himself while there.

Perrin's balance is more human than wolf, he chooses to enter T'A'R as the human and maybe it's holding on to that connection that allows him to see what he sees or maybe more importantly, allows him to recognize what he's seeing.

Just speculating of course but it makes sense.

[herid]

in any case he is never mentioned as having anything like prophetic visions that Perrin has sometimes.

Nor did Perrin ever tell anyone about them.

ok, that's a good point. still we as readers are never told of Elyas having such abilities either. In general, I must say I find it extremely strange that Perrin and Elyas never had a real discussion about Perrin's struggle with the wolves. There is this brief conversation at the end but that's it. Elyas was around Perrin for a number of books. Perrin broods for so long it's excruciating. He consults Hopper often but he never asks Elyas for help. I find it inexplicable. If anybody can understand what he was going through it's Elyas.

 

 

Might be as simple as where their respective "balances" lay and how they choose to enter T'A'R or what they choose to enter T'A'R as.

Nome's balance is fully as a wolf in both worlds. Elyas' balance is more wolf than human and it would be a pretty good assumption that he enters T'A'R as the wolf, fully embracing that part of himself while there.

Perrin's balance is more human than wolf, he chooses to enter T'A'R as the human and maybe it's holding on to that connection that allows him to see what he sees or maybe more importantly, allows him to recognize what he's seeing.

Just speculating of course but it makes sense.

Perrin never even asked Elyas about the wolf-dream or his balance until the very end.

 

"Do you ever visit wolves in your dreams, Elyas?" Perrin asked. "A place where dead wolves run and live again?" Elyas turned, eyeing him. "That place is dangerous, Perrin. It's another

world, although tied to this one somehow. Legends say the Aes Sedai of old could go there."

"And other people, too," Perrin said, thinking of Slayer. "Be careful in the dream. I stay away from it." His scent was wary. "Do you ever have trouble?" Perrin asked. "Separating yourself from

the wolf?"

" I used to." "But not any longer?" "I found a balance," Elyas said.

-ToM, Ch 24

 

This quote makes it clear that they never so much as discussed these things before. As i said, I find that inexplicable.

[yoniy0]

Not quite. A Dreamer (note the capital) is simply the Aes Sedai version of a dreamwalker (no capital).

Actually, that's inaccurate:

East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden June 1995 - Karl-Johan Norén reporting

On Dreamers, Dreamwalkers and prophetic dreams he said that the ability to interpret one's dreams, enter Tel’aran’rhiod and meddle with other people's dreams were different Talents.

 

scifi.com chat 14 November 2000

Ran: Are Dreaming and Dreamwalking essentially just different names for the same Talent, or are they separate Talents that often occur together? The illustrated guide seemed to confuse the issue somewhat.

RJ: No. They're very different. A Dreamwalker can enter dreams but a Dreamer only "understands" dreams, though Dreamwalkers are generally Dreamers too.

 

But they do not necessarily have the same Talent that dreamwalkers do.

Most certainly. I'm pretty sure RJ said that a Talent is a thing of the One Power, and all other gifts aren't the same as Talents. I can't find the quote right now, so hopefully @Terez or someone else who knows the Interview Database well could help me with this.

[dholm]

Not quite. A Dreamer (note the capital) is simply the Aes Sedai version of a dreamwalker (no capital).

Actually, that's inaccurate:

East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden June 1995 - Karl-Johan Norén reporting

On Dreamers, Dreamwalkers and prophetic dreams he said that the ability to interpret one's dreams, enter Tel’aran’rhiod and meddle with other people's dreams were different Talents.

 

scifi.com chat 14 November 2000

Ran: Are Dreaming and Dreamwalking essentially just different names for the same Talent, or are they separate Talents that often occur together? The illustrated guide seemed to confuse the issue somewhat.

RJ: No. They're very different. A Dreamwalker can enter dreams but a Dreamer only "understands" dreams, though Dreamwalkers are generally Dreamers too.

Fair enough. That is not how they are presented within the text, but that is a limited point of view, so not so odd.

 

But they do not necessarily have the same Talent that dreamwalkers do.

Most certainly. I'm pretty sure RJ said that a Talent is a thing of the One Power, and all other gifts aren't the same as Talents. I can't find the quote right now, so hopefully @Terez or someone else who knows the Interview Database well could help me with this.

They call other things Talents. Sensing ta'veren, for instance.

 

The Great Hunt[/i], Chapter 36, Among the Elders']Alar eyed them each in turn, then settled to a study of Rand. She looked as if she knew things; all the Elders did, but she most of all. “Verin says you are ta’veren,” she said at last, “and I can feel it in you. That I can do so means that you must be very strongly ta’veren indeed, for such Talents ever run weakly in us, if at all. Have you drawn Loial, son of Arent son of Halan, into ta’maral’ailen, the Web the Pattern weaves around you?”

 

But I suppose RJ could have changed his mind.

[Finnssss22]

Kinda surprised Terez didn't post this but maybe she didn't want to be accused of "showing off" or some such so I'll post it.

 

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

 

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

 

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

Terez

Also, didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more? :p

 

Terez

And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I just want a male dreamer dangit!

 

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

 

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

 

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

 

Terez

haha, yeah I know. I have argued much the same against Egwene-haters. I did enjoy that moment though.

 

Terez

Why do all the prophets have to be female? Foretelling I can see because of the taint, but the rest? Except Perrin.

 

Terez

The Thom dream used to make me think I was missing something, or maybe a deleted scene. Very odd.

 

Terez

Also, even with the taint seems like we should have had a male Foretelling by now, or a dreamer. Something.

 

Brandon

Well, out of fondness, I'll let you know that I DO know of at least one male (other than Perrin) who can see the future.

 

Terez

lol. The male Aelfinn?

 

Brandon

Dang. You're too clever. Okay, then, I promise you there's actually a man--human--who meets your requirements.

 

 

....as for the last part...my money is on Ishy/Moridin

[yoniy0]

They call other things Talents. Sensing ta'veren, for instance.

Sorry, but you chose a bad example:

RJ's blog 5 October 2005 "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"

Someone who sees ta’veren sees them as glowing. The more strongly ta’veren, the brighter the glow. This is a Talent, and is something that only someone who can channel can do. While she was stilled, Siuan could not see ta’veren, nor could she have if she had been burned out.

I'd say it was bad luck on your part, but I still stand behind my former statement, for the moment.

[dholm]

Ogier cannot channel, yet Alar had the ability to feel that Rand was ta'veren, and she called that ability a Talent. She did not see it as Siuan does, though.

[PhoenixUK]

They call other things Talents. Sensing ta'veren, for instance.

Sorry, but you chose a bad example:

RJ's blog 5 October 2005 "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"

Someone who sees ta’veren sees them as glowing. The more strongly ta’veren, the brighter the glow. This is a Talent, and is something that only someone who can channel can do. While she was stilled, Siuan could not see ta’veren, nor could she have if she had been burned out.

I'd say it was bad luck on your part, but I still stand behind my former statement, for the moment.

 

sometimes i feel like it's pointless for me to be debating things on here, because i haven't read every last statement by RJ so can't possibly keep track of minutiae like this, On the one hand it's wonderful how much detail and thought goes into his work, on the other it's kinda frustrating.

[yoniy0]

Ogier cannot channel, yet Alar had the ability to feel that Rand was ta'veren, and she called that ability a Talent. She did not see it as Siuan does, though.

Are you sure you don't want to read the One Power section of TheoryLand's WoT Interview Database?

Knife of Dreams book tour Pasadena, CA 31 October 2005 - Ursula reporting

Q: Another man asked about Siuan's Talent of seeing ta'veren. Was she able to see them after she was stilled?

RJ: No.

Q: Could she see them after she was healed?

RJ: Yes.

Q: So, if the ability to see them was based on the Power, what about the Ogier Elder who knew Rand was ta'veren?

RJ: For Siuan, yes, for the Ogier, no. The Ogier was able to see (or feel, I can't remember which RJ said) the Pattern shifting around Rand.

[dholm]

I repeat, Alar referred to what she was doing as a Talent. Either she was wrong or RJ changed his mind, but I am not.