Remeber who they caught

[Shaidar_Rannow]

I think Semi was wrong. Rand hears LTT and learns to weave what he has "never" known before. If he were insane that would mean that it would not take much taint to drive the victim insane, and yet in Logain's case(Baring his DF status(I doubt he is so dont burn me)) Logain would also be insane. Not to mention any of those involved in the link at SL. That much power combined with the taint is far more than Rand possessed prior to the cleansing according to the powers of the Chodean Thal(sp?) I believe this is all just the whell righting itself for the REAL last battle. Semi would say anything to cause unrest or distrust of Rand since she now belongs to him. Thats my thoughts

[Luckers]

Firstly, the affects if the taint change from person to person. There ae those that have gone insane after a day, and those that have lasted years. The effect on Rand in no way indicates a like effect on Logain, who i might add spent a large portion of time cut off from the source.

 

Secondly, insane is not a quantifiable state. Psychologists dont even use it as a term. Theoretically, what matter is the effect of a mental disposition on the ability to function normally in a social fashion. Ergo, Rand who experiences a voice which asserts power over his actions has indeed got an abnoral psychological state.

 

Thirdly, Semirhages statements match what we can verify. 1. Rand is experiencing a real past life voice, as she stated. 2. Graendal was the world leading expert in abnormal psychology. 3. The LTT voice is having an increasing effect on Rands normal psychological functioning which agrees with her assertion of a potential psychological break into terminal madness. Given that Semirhage knows those things suggests a prior discussion, her suggestion of Graendal as the source of that knowledge added to Lanfear as a source of knowledge about Rand is also viable, and the deductions she speaks are sugegsted are supported by the symptoms.

 

So LTT is right. Semirhages knowledge of past life voices indicates a prior occurence of such. This indicates that such a situation is a natural psychological event. Since we know the taint itself is not a state of specific abnormal psychology, but merely an instagatory force in destabalizing the mental state we can assume that the taint can result in any form of mental instability, something that is supported in the text, including the past-life voice syndrome.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think that part of the reason that the nature of Rand's mental problems is so hard to pin down is because he has several from multiple sources.

 

1. The taint. We have no way of knowing exactly how much this affected him, although given the lack of the rot which accompanies its advanced stages, we can assume Rand is not fully "taint-mad". Since the taint is now cleansed, the only potential source of taint-madness is the wound in his side, which is warded off from him (and we're not even 100 percent sure it works that way anyway).

 

2. Soul-madness (my own term). This is my new term (if still has that "new-term smell") for what Rand is experiencing with Lews Therin's voice/memories. Since Luckers covered it admirably above, the only things I want to do here are try out my new term, and affirm that it is a separate source from the taint.

 

3. Stress. Rand literally has the weight of the world on his shoulders, in his mind, and he's not really that far off. Between the physcial stresses (almost dying several times), valid paranoia (there really ARE people out to get him), dealing with dozens of squabbling factions of backbiting nobility, conflicts even between his supporters, the death and departure of close friends, the discovery of his orphan-hood, the stress of falling for THREE women, et cetera and so on, all at the tender age of 20-22, Rand has every reason to be mentally unstable. Its a miracle he's as coherent and kind as he is.

[CrazyMike]

Well ;

They could take that Shado Aiel that had his hand choped off by "Perrin Aybara" and let "Semirhage" a.k.a. "Nemene Damendar Boann" demonstrate a method of Healing that would restore the hand,,, possibly something to do with residual self image and memory?

 

or they could cut off someone else's hand and let heal the hand back...

 

all of the above she would do because the Foresaken are basicly cowards at heart and they know that when they die their Souls go straight to the welcoming arms of their LORD and Master,and maybe a few minor privilages in addition to letting her keep sucking air, like maybe food and water...

 

I believe the Aiel Wisewomen would be able to break her down swiftly enough; and maybe "Nynaeve al'Meara" could be present when she did the weaves of Healing and explained them, Nynaeve would be able to quickly master the weaves and method with only one demonstration.

[CrazyMike]

Yep,,, all the Asha'man who channeled before the Cleansing of Sadien have tainted souls, to some degree depending on the amount of channeling they did prior to the Cleansing,,, and I believe everyone of them who has channeled enough is hearing some voice from a past life, pehaps many are hearing the voices of a past life where they were close friends with "Lews Therin Telamon" and even some of the 100 companions that accompanied "Lews Therin Telamon" to Shayol Ghul when they sealed the Bore.

 

and all of them are crazy to some degree.

 

I believe that "Logain Ablar" was upset when "Semirhage" said Rand was hearing voices because Logain is also hering the Voice of his past self, and Logain has been channeling a lot more and for a long time than Rand,,, however the short period while Logain was Gentiled may have had some effect on all of that the way released that "Siuan Sanche" was released from the 3 Oaths and healed of Old Age...

 

Was Logain Healed of OLD AGE also...?

[Luckers]

Well firstly your still assuming such a thing is possible, which i doubt.

 

all of the above she would do because the Foresaken are basicly cowards at heart and they know that when they die their Souls go straight to the welcoming arms of their LORD and Master,and maybe a few minor privilages in addition to letting her keep sucking air, like maybe food and water...

 

I'm sorry... what? The Forsaken that have died have not suffered from their connection to the Dark One. And Semirhage is no coward. Thats been proven time and again.

 

I believe everyone of them who has channeled enough is hearing some voice from a past life, pehaps many are hearing the voices of a past life where they were close friends with "Lews Therin Telamon" and even some of the 100 companions that accompanied "Lews Therin Telamon" to Shayol Ghul when they sealed the Bore.

 

Real voices are rare. And why would those voices be the voices of lives in the Age of Legends?

 

Was Logain Healed of OLD AGE also...?

 

Logain's not old... he's twenty-six. And Suine wasn't healed of old age, she lost the agelessness and reverted to her original age. And the madness wouldn't be healed by being severed. The Taint is a cause, not an effect.

[CrazyMike]

Lucker's

 

I'm sorry... what? The Forsaken that have died have not suffered from their connection to the Dark One. And Semirhage is no coward. Thats been proven time and again.

 

 

 

maybe I misunderstood the books,,, I guess that in trueth the Forsaken reveal in the opportunity to spend time in the presince of the Dark Lord,,, it must be the joy of their existance to be near the Dark One DO...

 

Funny, I was under the misunderstanding that they feared the DO and did not want to spend time with him and even avoided using his POWER as much as they could because somehow it tended to take them over if they used it enough,,, I guess if they realy love to be Joyfully reunited with the DO then getting killed and having their souls sucked into the very heart of their Evil Master is very appealing to them, so they would never be afraid to die.

[Luckers]

Ok dude... have you read the books?

 

One, they are not with the Dark One whilst dead, they are in an empty void and are hardly aware--not pleasent, but description, but especially unpleasent. And then they are brought back... so yes, they do benefit from the experience.

 

Two, they describe time spent with the Dark One as overpowering. Bathing in his pressense is ecstacy, according to Lanfear, and none of them have shown any reluctance at going to the Pit.

 

Funny, I was under the misunderstanding that they feared the DO and did not want to spend time with him and even avoided using his POWER as much as they could because somehow it tended to take them over if they used it enough

 

Your right, because that is a misunderstanding. They avoid using the True Power because it is addictive and dangerous.

 

I guess if they realy love to be Joyfully reunited with the DO then getting killed and having their souls sucked into the very heart of their Evil Master is very appealing to them, so they would never be afraid to die

 

They certainly dont want to die, though where you got the rest of that BS is beyond me.

[KaptainKaos]

ROFL, well once again I have been astonished simply by the way "Crazy Mike" writes without even actually understanding what he is trying to get across.

[chemteach1977]

I guess i should just give up on my theory now that crazymike seems to agree with me. :lol:

 

I started a topic a while back about what Cads needed to teach Rand and the AM. I rejected the idea of manners, respect, laughing and crying on the basis that i find all that really really lame. (not exactly objective reasoning i admit)

 

My theory is that Rand is not unique in having a voice in his head. And Cads has to teach him, and the rest of the AM, the truth about those voices. I back that up only with Cads telling Rand about voices and how it always ends with tears for men who channel. Even if voices do not afflict all AM, they might all need to learn about Rand and LTT's voice.

 

Also, i am firmly convinced that LTT is NOT real because Rand believes he is. Rand believes Min's vision of him merging with another proves it. Most assume that the vision has something to do with "crossing the streams" with Moridin. So Rand is probably deceiving himself and us.

 

On topic: The wearer the bracelet of an a'dam can also feel the "consciousness" (sp?) of the one wearing the necklace. So they should be able to figure out the intent of the necklace wearer. Still, i don't see Luke err Rand getting his hand back. Personally, i hope they balefire Semmy on the spot.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Also, i am firmly convinced that LTT is NOT real because Rand believes he is.

 

Given the amount and type of information Lews Therin has passed along, which Rand would have no way of knowing, along with the scene at Lord Algarin's manor where Lews Therin seizes the source and weaves Blossoms of Fire and Deathgates, I think its pretty conclusive that Lews Therin is real. The madness as Semirhage described it has a ring of truth to it, because it fits the situation exactly, and it's a situation in which telling the truth would still serve her purposes.

[chemteach1977]

Certainly the memories are real. That does not mean the voice in Rand's head is really LTT. I see it like the memories in Matt's head instead of a "gift" from the finns, LTT memories are "leaking" through the pattern due to the taint.

 

That does not mean the personality and consciousness of LTT somehow are floating around in Rand's head. I still thank Rand is suffering from schizophrenia bordering on multiple personality disorder. Granted evidence seems to pile up on the other side but i think we are being mislead.

 

Having an unreliable narrator is a very interesting plot device. That's why i like the movie Momento so much.

[CrazyMike]

In Fact , I believe RAND is the actual Re-encarnation of "Lews Therin" and that the taint loosened the weave of the Fabric of the Wheel and/or of Rands Mind enough to allow the Old memories and personality to begin to assert it's self,,, and I believe the Other Male channelers who channeled before the Cleansing of Saden are experiencing the same kind of memory/personalty conflict from their own re-incarnated past selves,,, this series is based on a presumtive FACT for the series about souls that have passed on being spun out and re-born again...

 

It is even possible that Lews Therins wife "Ilyena Therin Moerelle" that he killed has also been reborn and may even be one RAND's wives now... If so, it would be nice if Lews Therin realized that and it caused his attitude to change...

Cain't we just get along?