To Un-make the Bore

[knutz]

We only have "Myth" that tells us that the DO was imprisoned by the Creator.

 

I believe Rand will need to re-create the prison.

 

He'll bind the DO in his own power. It was a human using this power that drilled the bore.

 

Of course, if he throws Padan Fain into the bore the DO may be destroyed. And then Moridin will go Wow! I was wrong! And he and Rand will go off and have a beer and talk about old times.

[Phelix]

Getting on to your question, actually there has been some speculation (unproven, as far as I know) that a balefired person might eventually be reborn.

 

However, this passage from Lord of Chaos strongly suggests that a death by Balefire is an irreversable final death:

 

 

Nope. Balefire is not a final death. Balefired souls can be reborn. Quotes:

 

Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.<BR id=xl_v8>

 

Balefire: If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Pattern as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.

 

 

 

 

 

blindillusion: Is there any way for someone to be removed completely from the Pattern?

 

Brandon: (Sorry I cannot put out his precise words, but here is the gist) – Jordan started by having balefire do this, but he later debunked this theory by saying someone killed by balefire can be reborn at some point. We currently know of nothing/no method that will completely remove someone from the Pattern.

 

- I thanked him and turned to walk away at this point, so that he could continue with the signing. But he called me back and commented that: The wolves in the Wolf Dream. We know that in the Wolf Dream something can be completely removed from the Pattern. (Again, not his exact words, but this pretty close. Perhaps J.D can back me up here. He was there.)

 

 

^{All quotes are from this lovely page: https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_74xw3j58sj}

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Fain is smaller & less powerful than the Wheel. The DO is bigger and more powerful than the Wheel. Fain has no powers similar to the DO. He can't destroy the Wheel. Not even Shadar Logoth could destroy the Wheel, even from within.

 

The "prison" is outside the Wheel. The bore is in the Wheel. The bore will be unmade, so that it can be drilled again.

[Nightstrike]

Letter to Paul Ward from RJ - March 2000

 

RJ: The taint and the True Power are both manifestations of the Dark One -- they are the same substance, but those who access it are not destroyed in the same way.

AOL Chat #2 27 June 1996

 

DayTripr1: And also is the Dark One the only source of the True Power?

RJ: Yes, the Dark One is the only source of the True Power.

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

 

Shosh001 asks: Mr. Jordan, you've outdone yourself with A Crown of Swords. My question concerns the True Power. How is it distinguishable from the One Power?

RJ: It's fairly self-evident from the book. What can be done with the True Power is very similar to what can be done with the One Power. Except that where the One Power is drawn from the True Source and is the force that drives the Wheel of Time and powers the universe, the so-called True Power is drawn from the Dark One. There are limits in the same ways there are limits to the One Power. It would be very long if I went into it too much, but some of those limits and costs of drawing on the Dark One are shown in A Crown of Swords.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Books and Co., Dayton, OH 11 November 2009 - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: Will Fain be in the next book?

A: Padan Fain will be seen again. He’s a mixture of two things – Mordeth’s power, which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow, and the Dark One’s Hound. Brandon said that Fain’s number one goal is to kill Rand, and a close second is to kill the Dark One. Now that Shadar Logoth has been destroyed, all of the Mordeth power that remains in the world is in Fain.4

-> With a fraction of the DO's power.

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: What is Fain?

RJ: Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The black wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.

 

Another difference: Fain is mad, while the DO is not - that's probably the least significant difference between them.

[Annia]

Min has been doing Rand's homework for him. She, the dumb bimbo, has been reading the philosophy books given to her by the crazy old man who got torn to bits by the gohlem. The mindless twit will figure out what Rand needs to do.

 

Could a really big batch of balefire be part of the solution? It brought Mat and Avi back to life when Rand blasted Rahvin. The Dark One doesn't like anyone channeling around Shayol Ghul. Maybe Min will tell Rand that he has to direct all of his available balefire into the depths of Shayol Ghul. When he does, a new Dragonmount will replace Shayol Ghul and thus plug the hole until the pattern can fix itself.

Whoa calm down gramps Min might be rough around the edges and its a strech to think that she is a great thinker of the time but there is no indication that she is stupid or slow. Now balefire destroys, not makes moutains. Maybe I'm missing some nefarious sarcasm but ....

 

 

 

Yes, I was being silly. Min must have a very strong mind in order to help Rand with the philosophy book contents. The bimbo and twit stuff refers to her portrayal as a love sick mistress. I'll be disappointed if AMoL leaves us with that impression of her and does not give her the credit that she truly deserves.

 

I was thinking about balefire having an affect on the bore itself. If you zap a person, their existence is reversed. When the black sister was blazing away at Nyn in Tanchico the walls ceased to exist. If you could score a direct hit on the bore somehow, maybe it would cease to exist or even have it's existence reversed to before it was created?

 

Oh yeah, if Brandon doesn't show us Galad's reaction when he finds out that the fate of the world depends on Elmindreda 'does this dress make me look fat' Farshaw's wits, I'll be SERIOUSLY disappointed.

[Samhain]

It bothers me that people don't understand that there are 7 spokes to the Wheel. – 7 Ages.

 

Rand doesn't have to make the Bore the same as it was at the first turning.

He just has to seal the Dark One up.

 

In every Age a Dark One is freed from his Prison; so as long as he doesn't remove the Dark One completely, it doesn't matter how he seals him up.

He doesn't need to make it the same as the first time around when the Creator had sealed the Dark One up.

 

He doesn't even need to seal up the same Dark One. I believe Fain will be the Dark One for the next Age.

The Dark One wants to die, he wants to kill the serpent ending time itself as was explained very early on.

I believe the Dark one is the Serpent, which is why it's always eating its own tail - trying to commit suicide.

Rand is the only one that can do the job.

Which would explain why when Rand's soul was turned to the Shadow in previous turnings that the Wheel wasn't destroyed, and instead we had a Draw.

 

I don't believe that the Dark one is released/freed from his prison with each Age. Since as each Age passes into the next, knowledge from the previous Age becomes legend, 2 Ages ago becomes myth, and so on and so forth until it is completely forgotten at some point prior to the Age coming back around again. If the Dark on is freed in each Age, then everyone in the Age of Legends would have known some legend of the Bore into the Dark One's prison prior to it happening in that Age. We don't hear of any persistent legend of the Bore, other than it only happened in the previous Age.

 

The Dark One doesn't want to kill himself, he wants to kill all life. He is the antithesis of the Creator, who creates life.

 

The Dragon was never turned to the Shadow. That was just Ishamael being the lying liar who lies......alot.

[Nightstrike]

If the DO was freed, then no more Wheel. The Dragon has gone over to the DO in the past, but without succeeding in freeing the DO.

[Nightstrike]

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Jonathan B. reporting

 

Someone asked if the Seanchan taking over the entire world would be a victory for the Light or the Dark. Brandon said it would be a victory for the Light because the Dark One would not have won. He said that the Forsaken have different visions of what a victory for the Dark would mean. Ishamael thinks it will mean the destruction of everything and the end of time whereas Graendal thinks that he will remake the world.

 

Scifi.com Chat 1 November 1998

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

[Nightstrike]

Also, I think the serpent is a symbol for time... Slaying the serpent should then mean to end time.

[Samhain]

....

 

Ouch. That slap hurt.

 

j/k

[Nightstrike]

I don't believe that the Dark one is released/freed from his prison with each Age. Since as each Age passes into the next, knowledge from the previous Age becomes legend, 2 Ages ago becomes myth, and so on and so forth until it is completely forgotten at some point prior to the Age coming back around again. If the Dark on is freed in each Age, then everyone in the Age of Legends would have known some legend of the Bore into the Dark One's prison prior to it happening in that Age. We don't hear of any persistent legend of the Bore, other than it only happened in the previous Age.

 

The Dark One doesn't want to kill himself, he wants to kill all life. He is the antithesis of the Creator, who creates life.

I agreed on this part.

[jakob777]

Not to completely discount the idea of a balefire, if I recall correctly the each of the forsaken was trapped in the prison with the DO, and if they were at the edges of this prison they felt the turning of the wheel and if they were closer to the bore they didn't feel it as much if at all. So two things could be used by this logic 1) maybe there is someone there that is still not let out and was a part of the bore to start out with (then insert balefire and see what happens) 2) lanfears weaves do not dissipate as they would in a area that feels the turning of the wheel so they could be there for Nyneve or some other female channeler to pull apart and allow the bore to have been closed from this side.

 

Just my two cents

[Elan Tedronai]

C'mon people. isnt it so obvious by now. For the bore to be unmade, the DO needs to be pushed back. It is why when LTT put the patch on the bore that saidin got tainted. He touched the DO. They have to find a way to push the DO far back so that the pattern can reheal itself and the bore can can be closed thereby allowing the prison to remain in its original state.

[Kestrel]

C'mon people. isnt it so obvious by now. For the bore to be unmade, the DO needs to be pushed back. It is why when LTT put the patch on the bore that saidin got tainted. He touched the DO. They have to find a way to push the DO far back so that the pattern can reheal itself and the bore can can be closed thereby allowing the prison to remain in its original state.

I agree that Rand needs to shove the Dark One back down the hole, without actually touching saidin to the Dark One this time. LTT told him so. That's where I believe Fain comes in. He'll shove Fain down the bore with saidin, and use Fain to shove the Dark One down.

 

Now the original question I posed when I started this thread was a little different. It would be nice, I suppose, if the bore would simply snap shut on its own when the seals are removed and the Dark One is shoved back. It may not be that easy, though.

 

Why didn't the bore snap shut the first time when LTT pushed the Dark One back with saidin? Why did LTT have to hold it closed with seals? You'd think that if the pattern really was anxious to heal itself, the seals wouldn't have been necessary.

 

My question refers back to the scene at the end of ToM, when Meirin connects with Rand. Does that scene allude to a role Meirin has yet to play in undoing the damage she originally caused?

 

What if there's something else that needs to be undone, something that was part of the original making of the bore? I'm suggesting that whatever Meirin did to push it open may also need to be reversed. The bore may need to be pulled shut.

[Aquarius]

In every Age a Dark One is freed from his Prison; so as long as he doesn't remove the Dark One completely, it doesn't matter how he seals him up.

Who the hell says that ?

[dutchman1789]

How do we know that the prison was whole in the AoL? If I remember correctly they found the Dark One through a thinness in the pattern. Maybe that was just a better patch.

[Kestrel]

How do we know that the prison was whole in the AoL? If I remember correctly they found the Dark One through a thinness in the pattern. Maybe that was just a better patch.

There's a big difference between an intact wall and old plug in an old hole. There was a weak spot but no evidence of an old patch. The historical account would have been quite different if Mierin & company were reopening what someone had previously drilled. Visions come to mind of what Howard Carter documented when he discovered King Tut's tomb: evidence of a thwarted ancient tomb robbery, with the grave goods hastily thrown back inside and the hole in the doorway patched up.

 

But you may be on to something. The thinness in the pattern could be compared to scar tissue from all the previous ages when the bore was made and unmade before. Yes, the wall of the Dark One's prison was restored to an intact state each time, but a scarred surface is often still weaker than what surrounds it.

[Nightstrike]

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 1997

Brandon from Mission Viejo: Mr. Jordan, it's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each Age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off—kick over the table and run for the window.

Whole and unbroken...

 

From the BWB (chapter 4, the fall into shadow):

It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of Creation.

It was probably created with this thinness, even before the Bore was drilled for the first time.

[Alternate34]

 

 

From the BWB (chapter 4, the fall into shadow):

It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of Creation.

It was probably created with this thinness, even before the Bore was drilled for the first time.

 

I wonder if it was created with the thinness or if The Dark One can very slowly wear away at the Pattern making it thinner, allowing himself to be detected and fully drilled out. He probably anticipates the Second Age because he knows its one of the best times for him. A world that knows nothing about the Dark One freeing him. Even if he screws up winning in the Second Age, he gets the Third Age to look forward to messing around with.

[Phariah]

ok i believe that it is gonna take all 3 powers to seal the bore. 3 become 1. Min keeps saying that there is a deeper flaw within Callandor. what if that flaw allows the use of the True power through Callandor also? the whole book is about balance. balance between the DO and the Creator say is needed to reseal the bore completely. we were told by RJ that if women joined LTT in trying to reseal the bore in the AoL they would have been effected by the backlash also, thus become tainted too. he is gonna use what he learned cleansing the male half of the power. he used the female half as a strainer. what if he uses the True power as a buffer when he reseals the bore.

[Hyronimus]

this is a bit vague (ha) but don't Nyneave's increased abilities in delving and her unconventional healing meathods (and by this i mean not necessarily using 'healing' weaves) seem to foreshadow some major revelation that rand will run with and apply?

 

mostly i think it will be a joint ta'varen action that 'grows' the pattern over the bore, but nyneave's recent successed with healing madness (and an ability to 'see' the effects of the taint) do seem to indicate a possible counter to the darkone's presence. it seems to me that they will have to clean the wound before it can be healed.

 

the bore (and here i compare to how rand describes making a gateway where he says 'i bore a hole' and so he wiggles through to another part of the pattern)is to my mind a hole OUT of the pattern.

 

If nyneave can figure out how to heal rand's wounds (hey doesn't flinn's solution for the wounds resemble the female AS from the AoL's solution for the bore? Sorry mind wandering)we may have a meathode for dealing with the darkone's presence and get on with the resealing.

 

still i wouldn't be surprised if Lanfear (as she will always be to me) plays some part. perhapes information in flashback/dream form?

[Nightstrike]

"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

Two must be as one to win the last battle/undo the bore.

 

TGS,Ch48

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

I don't know what that is about.

[Nightstrike]

From the 13:th depository (about the three being one):

Cadsuane studied the Karaethon Cycle and had new insights which led her to research Callandor, but apparently there is more to discover.

 

Rand may use Callandor with two women in a circle of three, but the three becoming one may refer to something else such as the three ta’veren, who are now linked by the Pattern to the degree that they can see what each other is doing. If they hold each other in their minds, what will result? Already Rand is more accepting of the visions of Mat and Perrin that this mysterious link brings him. Can their ‘ring’ of one channeller to wield the Power through Callandor and two non-channellers to affect the Pattern and stabilise him achieve anything? It is not a true ring as channellers would know it.

 

Of course, Rand could use Callandor with two women and also “be as one” with Mat and Perrin. That would make five combating the Dark One, with males and females involved, and five just happens to be the number of humanity (see Number Symbolism essay). If the two women linked with Rand are Egwene and Nynaeve, then all five Emond’s Fielders (renowned as a stubborn and resistant people) would be the ones to hold back the Dark One’s attempts to destroy the Pattern. This seems most appropriate and brings the Story full circle.

 

However the Dark One is fought, he can’t be touched with the One Power because he will taint it, whether saidin or saidar or both; since whatever touches the Dark One is defiled. Perrin always derided the Tinkers by saying that they can't fight off Trollocs with the strength of their belief. However, maybe the Dark One can be fought with the strength of belief. Belief doesn't touch the Dark One, belief stops him from touching others, especially if they fervently believe he has no power over them.

From Theoryland's database:

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

 

AaronB20 asks: Can you clarify who can tell when one is using the True Power?

RJ: No one can tell if you're using the True Power except the Dark One, of course.24

That makes me think both OP and TP are out of the question, when it comes to undoing the Bore.

[Aquarius]

The ta'veren thing is interresting. Rand's ta'veren effect seem to obey his will (at least Dark Rand thought so), Mat's affects randomly, Perrin seem to be the builder... Would it be so lame if they "grew"/"wove" the pattern back over the hole in the DO's prison just by wanting it ?

[Kestrel]

ok i believe that it is gonna take all 3 powers to seal the bore. 3 become 1. Min keeps saying that there is a deeper flaw within Callandor. what if that flaw allows the use of the True power through Callandor also? the whole book is about balance. balance between the DO and the Creator say is needed to reseal the bore completely. we were told by RJ that if women joined LTT in trying to reseal the bore in the AoL they would have been effected by the backlash also, thus become tainted too. he is gonna use what he learned cleansing the male half of the power. he used the female half as a strainer. what if he uses the True power as a buffer when he reseals the bore.

Interesting idea. I doubt it is possible, though. The Callandor circle will be Rand, Nynaeve, and one other woman. That's already been forseen by Min.

 

And I'm still holding to my idea that the "buffer" between Saidin/Saidar and the Dark One will be Padan Fain. They'll stuff Fain down the bore and use him to shield themselves from direct contact with the Dark One.

 

Assuming the other women not a Forsaken, then of the three in the circle Rand will be the only one with potential access to both Saidin and the TP. In the TP users to date, however, we have seen them have to choose between using either the OP or the TP. Continuing along that thought process, Rand also will be able to supply either Saidin or the TP to the circle, but not both at the same time.

 

Therefore, the only way to have a circle of three with Saidin, Saidar and the TP, would be for the other woman to supply the TP. The one woman we've seen to date with TP access is Graendal, and she can only channel the barest trickle of the TP. Even then, we would still have to presume she can still access it at all once Shaidar Haran gets through with her.

 

In the alternative, we know Rand can channel the TP with considerable force. So if Rand supplied the TP, the other woman in the circle would have to be a saidin-channeling male Forsaken regenerated into a female body. But Halima/Aran'gar is out of the picture permanently, and no one else has been introduced to date who could fill that role.

 

So, the interweaving of Saidin, Saidar, and the TP is an intriguing idea, but I don't think it's likely to happen.