To survive the Last Battle, Rand must die.

[Terez]

If you haven't read my FAQ article Blood on the Rocks, I suggest doing so. I have drawn some conclusions in it which are inherently biased toward my opinion, but I have also included every prophecy which might possibly be relevant to Rand's death (if I overlooked something, please let me know). I did at least link to Luckers' body-swap theory (which might or might not be updated since TOM - I don't think it has been). Anyway, if you read the page and you're all 'OH! But I already voted and now I've changed my mind!' ...remember you can always delete your vote and vote again.

 

The tl;dr version of that page: keep in mind that the Aelfinn said that Rand must die to survive the Last Battle. There are four separate prophecies speaking of his death:

 

1. Aelfinn: 'To live, you must die.'

2. Nicola: 'He who is dead yet lives'

3. KC: 'Twice to live, and twice to die'

4. Min: 'Alivia is going to help you die.'

 

There are also many suggestions in the prophecies that Rand's body will be burned. This seems to contradict the Foretelling during which he is 'dead yet lives' on a boat with his three wives in attendance. In other words, Rand will probably be resurrected in a new body, which is part of why the body swap theory and the ripping-from-Tel'aran'rhiod theories are the most logical (though it probably has little to do with why they are the most popular): either one can give Rand a new body in a very non-deus ex machina way, and his old body should probably be burned anyway. The heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod seem to typically appear as their last incarnation, but chances are they can appear any way they want to. Certainly Rand's new body in that case would be just like the old one, but wound-free.

 

Another strength of both the body-swap theory and the ripping theory is that it's looking like the reason why Rand has to die is the link with Moridin. He has to sever that link somehow, whether he does it by dying or whether he does it by evicting Moridin's soul from the premises. The reason why it's so central to everything is probably that he cannot win the Last Battle so long as they are still linked. That would explain why the Aelfinn answered Rand's question - 'How can I win and survive the Last Battle?' - in the way that they did. He has to die first.

[herid]

sorry, can't vote as I don't have anything remotely close to a full theory on how it will all shake out. I like your theory about Nynaeve pushing Rand back to life from TAR after he dies. But I also think that the wound from Fain's dagger in Rand's side has to play a role in the final sealing of the bore. at least I can't think of any other way how Rand's blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul is supposed to bring the Light back to the world. Those two are pretty hard to reconcile though. also, I think Rand might die again at the Last Battle or shortly thereafter. That would agree with the "twice to live and twice to die" part. I just can't see him sticking around for long after the LB is done. So he should either die again (That would agree with the "twice to live and twice to die" part) or maybe go off someplace (possibly with some or all of his girls) like Jesus did after his resurrection. I have a hard time imagining where he could go though. Maybe the Ogier will take him along when they open the book of Translation.

[capuga]

I believe Rand will die before the Last Battle and be resurrected 3 days later (based on some foreshadowing and his Jesus parallels) but it will not involve any type of body swap / body stealing. I think Nynaeve pulling him out of T'A'R is the most likely candidate. All of this is just gut feeling as opposed to meticulous theory after combing through all the books and quotes.

[Terez]

I knew that poll option was going to be confusing. In the first question, resurrection INCLUDES the body-swap theory but is not limited to that at all.

 

(Edited the poll to hopefully be more clear.)

[Sleeper]

I feel that Nynaeve is going to find a way to heal death and save Rand that way. It's been so constantly drilled into our heads throughout the series that death cannot be healed that it almost feels like RJ was setting up for that to be exactly what happens during TG. The healing will probably have some terrible price though, that makes healing death not viable in other circumstances.

[Terez]

I feel that Nynaeve is going to find a way to heal death and save Rand that way. It's been so constantly drilled into our heads throughout the series that death cannot be healed that it almost feels like RJ was setting up for that to be exactly what happens during TG. The healing will probably have some terrible price though, that makes healing death not viable in other circumstances.

Kinda like Nynaeve ripping him out of TAR? :) This is one of my favorite foreshadowings for the theory:

 

All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.

And Marigan taught her how to do it.

[Ashandarei]

I read your Blood on the Rocks page and thought both theories have merit, the TAR resurrection and the body-swap and couldn't decide which I favor more. Then I remembered the "twice and twice" prophecy which got me thinking- is there a reason that both the TAR resurrect and body-swap theories couldn't both happen? I tried finding a reason why they wouldn't while looking over the page but at least on first read I didn't notice any. This may not be the way it would actually happen but one plausible outcome could be a merging of a few of the death theories on the page. What if Rand faces Moridin and dies at the Battle of Caemlyn/BT and instead of going to TAR his soul is instead pulled into Moridin's body by the link? He doesn't even have to die fighting Moridin, it could be he died fighting Taim or somesuch.

 

From here there are two options: 1) He lets his forces/people know what happened or 2) He goes incognito and maybe even tries to penetrate the DO's command structure as Moridin and mess with the Shadow's forces. Let's say he goes incognito and doesn't tell Nyn and the rest. They tear their hair out trying to figure out what to do, grieve etc etc and Nyn comes up with a plan to do the TAR resurrect. Except they can't find him there and they think he's following the precepts. However, he later goes and dies on the rocks of Shayol Ghul while pretending to be Moridin and infiltrate the Shadow's command structure and possibly even attack the DO, which of course fails since he dies. Then the Light-siders find him in TAR as now his soul did go there and they rip him out of the dream. He is then present at the LB and does what he needs to do.

 

Let's back-up to option 1. Say he tells the Light-siders of his body-swap. Then, again he tries the SG infiltration and dies there. Finally, Nyn resurrects him from TAR and he goes and defeats the DO in the LB. Either way he dies twice. Additionally, in both cases his blood is spilled on SG rock. I only created this outcome to show one possible way he could fulfill both death theories, body-swap and TAR resurrect, it isn't meant to be a rock-solid theory. The only problem with the die twice theory is that if you think about it, to die twice, a person has to live thrice if they survive both deaths somehow(body swap, resurrect) but I think most people agree that Rand will survive the LB so either he won't die twice, or he will live thrice. Either way, he can't die and live twice if he is to make it past Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Lastly, I see the TAR resurrect being a problem. This is because throughout the series the idea has been reinforced that immortality of the flesh like what the Forsaken enjoy and DF's want(or even immortality through transmigration of souls) is evil. On the other hand, immortality of souls is a thing of the Light, like what the Heroes of the Horn and the Dragon have- after all, they're all Light-siders. Now if Nyn, or anybody, rips Rand out of TAR after he dies, that's a path to immortality for any of the HotH or Dragon or anyone linked to the Wheel like that since anybody with sufficient strength(or an angreal) and the knowledge of the weave can resurrect any of those individuals infinitely many times, every time they die. That's dangerously akin to Transmigration and immortality of the flesh which, as I said, has been linked by precedent to the Shadow/DO.

 

In addition to simply being associated to the DO, from a purely literary perspective, it cheapens death and the lessens the impact/depth of the story if so many of the characters are basically immortal through infinite TAR resurrection- Rand, Birgitte, Mat & Perrin(if the 2 ta'veren weren't HotH previously I'm sure they will be after this life, or at least be linked to the Wheel similarly) and whoever else from WoT is one the Heroes that we don't know yet. Having said that, I still think the theory is valid, this is just a kink I found in it.

 

 

P.S. Shouldn't this thread be in the AMoL speculation board?

[Sleeper]

I feel that Nynaeve is going to find a way to heal death and save Rand that way. It's been so constantly drilled into our heads throughout the series that death cannot be healed that it almost feels like RJ was setting up for that to be exactly what happens during TG. The healing will probably have some terrible price though, that makes healing death not viable in other circumstances.

Kinda like Nynaeve ripping him out of TAR? :) This is one of my favorite foreshadowings for the theory:

 

All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.

And Marigan taught her how to do it.

I like that theory, and there does seem to be some support for it.

 

Right now I'm pretty much fine with any ending as long as it's not the bodyswap one .

[Terez]

I read your Blood on the Rocks page and thought both theories have merit, the TAR resurrection and the body-swap and couldn't decide which I favor more. Then I remembered the "twice and twice" prophecy which got me thinking- is there a reason that both the TAR resurrect and body-swap theories couldn't both happen?

No. I've said elsewhere that I can see it happening that way - I just don't think Rand will end the series in Moridin's body.

 

Lastly, I see the TAR resurrect being a problem. This is because throughout the series the idea has been reinforced that immortality of the flesh like what the Forsaken enjoy and DF's want(or even immortality through transmigration of souls) is evil. On the other hand, immortality of souls is a thing of the Light, like what the Heroes of the Horn and the Dragon have- after all, they're all Light-siders. Now if Nyn, or anybody, rips Rand out of TAR after he dies, that's a path to immortality for any of the HotH or Dragon or anyone linked to the Wheel like that since anybody with sufficient strength(or an angreal) and the knowledge of the weave can resurrect any of those individuals infinitely many times, every time they die.

I addressed this already. Nynaeve will only be able to find Rand to rip him out if 1) Rand breaks the precepts, or 2) she uses Need. Most heroes won't break the precepts, so Nynaeve will probably have to use Need, which means that it won't work on just any old Hero. There has to be a very acute Need for her to be able to resurrect him in this way.

[Ashandarei]

Lastly, I see the TAR resurrect being a problem. This is because throughout the series the idea has been reinforced that immortality of the flesh like what the Forsaken enjoy and DF's want(or even immortality through transmigration of souls) is evil. On the other hand, immortality of souls is a thing of the Light, like what the Heroes of the Horn and the Dragon have- after all, they're all Light-siders. Now if Nyn, or anybody, rips Rand out of TAR after he dies, that's a path to immortality for any of the HotH or Dragon or anyone linked to the Wheel like that since anybody with sufficient strength(or an angreal) and the knowledge of the weave can resurrect any of those individuals infinitely many times, every time they die.

I addressed this already. Nynaeve will only be able to find Rand to rip him out if 1) Rand breaks the precepts, or 2) she uses Need. Most heroes won't break the precepts, so Nynaeve will probably have to use Need, which means that it won't work on just any old Hero. There has to be a very acute Need for her to be able to resurrect him in this way.

 

I realize that you're distinguishing between Need as that required by the Light and/or Pattern and need as that of an individual that might be substituting it for "want". But isn't TAR all about perceptions? If a person believes something strongly enough, it exists, whether or not it is real and exists outside the Dream etc. So what I'm saying is, in a lover's mind, their "need" for a person would easily be as strong as Nynaeve's "Need" for Rand to help the Light win. So if any of the Heroes die and their lovers simply have a Dreaming ter'angreal, I would say their "need" would definitely work on finding their partner in TAR(if we're assuming Nyn can find Rand using it). They don't even need the OP, they just need someone who can channel to come with them and make the weaves. Basically "Need" is defined by the Dreamer not the Pattern. I'm sure a DF who used Need would just as easily be able to find a weapon against the Light or somesuch.

[Terez]

I realize that you're distinguishing between Need as that required by the Light and/or Pattern and need as that of an individual that might be substituting it for "want". But isn't TAR all about perceptions?

To an extent, yes, but it does seem to matter how badly you need whatever it is. Assuming that the Eye is corollary, for example, Moiraine believed that she would be able to find it a second time because their need was so great. You can't really fabricate this sort of thing. I can see Need working for Nynaeve if Lan is dead and also in TAR as a Hero, but not much father than that (I theorized elsewhere that they might be able to rip out Someshta if he's a Hero for seed-singing, but it was really just a loony theory). Also, I don't think Nynaeve will teach it to anyone. It's only random chance that she happens to know how to do it (thanks to Moghedien). So it's not going to be an easy resurrection for anyone in the future, no matter which way it goes.

[Ashandarei]

To an extent, yes, but it does seem to matter how badly you need whatever it is. Assuming that the Eye is corollary, for example, Moiraine believed that she would be able to find it a second time because their need was so great. You can't really fabricate this sort of thing. I can see Need working for Nynaeve if Lan is dead and also in TAR as a Hero, but not much father than that (I theorized elsewhere that they might be able to rip out Someshta if he's a Hero for seed-singing, but it was really just a loony theory). Also, I don't think Nynaeve will teach it to anyone. It's only random chance that she happens to know how to do it (thanks to Moghedien). So it's not going to be an easy resurrection for anyone in the future, no matter which way it goes.

 

Agreed.

 

I'm still stuck though since I want to choose "Rand will die before" and "at" the Last Battle for the first question, and want to choose that he will body-swap and have Nyn resurrect him in the second poll. Might just have to go with "other" on both, although that would feel like a cop out.

[Jillain Sanche]

Robert Jordan will surprise us, somehow, once again.

 

Yet the other day I was reminded of the prophecy of the three women in the boat passage.

 

I was watching the end of the movie "Excalibur" (1981?), which I originally saw at the Strand in San Francisco when it was released, and at the end after one of Arthur's knights (I missed which one, madly) was convinced by the wounded or dying king to give the sword back to the lady in the lake, and after having done so he returns to find Arthur gone.

Then the scene shifts to show a boat going out (to sea?) with a body laid on a bier and, yes, three women standing with Arthur's body.

 

My curiousity is piqued; now I will have to read Mallory's Morte d'Arthur to catch what homage Jordan must have paid it.

 

At any rate, I fully expect there to be a scene with the three women (whether or not they are Aviendha, Min and Elayne or some variation whereof and wherefore) involved.

 

I fully expect Jordan to surprise us!

 

Yet, the idea of Nynaeve ripping him out of Tel'aranrhiod has occurred to me.

 

Ah, the fine sweet expectation of waiting to RAFO, eh?

[Terez]

I love that the one person who chose body swap so far also chose the 'Rand will fake his death' option for question one.

[mb]

On first voted death at Tarmon Gaidon and resurrection some time after.

 

 

On second, voted "Other".

He being ripped out might work, but the body might not be his.

Being brought back through balefire could be a possibility. Rand's killer would need to be a "safe" balefire victim (ie not the Dark One).

Being Healed of death through some other means by anyone, that might be another possibility. Technique could probably be similar to construct making.

I am not sure about Rand stealing Moridin's body. As far as I am aware, neither author confirmed or denied the body swap theory.

Since Rand's soul seems to be a Hero, the Dark One would not be able to get it.

 

Some other possibilities on his resurrection::

-It being a Pattern-caused thing; how exactly, I am not sure.

-The Creator deciding to interfere.

[Byzantine279]

The finn's are as bad as the Aes Sedai at saying something and meaning something completely different. "To live you must die" is a very generic, but also rather clear answer, except when you examine the word die. It seems clear enough that death means as in to have your heart stop beating, but literal death and metaphoric death are not always the same thing, and the finns could easily be speaking metaphorically. That is to say perhaps all Rand had to do to "die" was to change himself from the person he had been, to grow up, something that he certainly has done. Of course, I don't put enoguh stock into that to vote on it, but still it is a decent theory.

 

I would also like to point out that nearly all of the "juicy" lines of Prophecies we have read state "He/His", there is no reason to assume they mean the DR every time, it could easily be some random guy who's blood ends up freeing mankind, there is a reason that anything not spelled out should be questioned, words are important esp with the way RJ writes, he chooses them very carefully, there is a reason that the line is "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" rather than "the DR will die at..." or "the DR's blood on the rocks..." Perhaps I am looking too deeply into this, but I am highly suspicious of anything that is not directly spelled out, esp when the line was given for the first time in one of the earliest books, and has been repeated many times.

[Randommer]

1. Aelfinn: 'To live, you must die.'

I've always been confused about this; is it 'to live, you must die' or 'if you would live, you must die'? Cos they could actually mean very different things, though the fact that this hasn't occurred to anyone else makes me think I'm reading waaay too much into it.

 

2. Nicola: 'He who is dead yet lives'

I always read this as being about Rand himself, rather than his death/resurrection. Seeing as how he is now Lews Therin as well as Rand, and Lews Therin is dead. Course it could be either meaning.

[Entreri]

Rand will certainly die, I am 100% convinced. Too many clues to this throughout the series.

 

How he will be resurrected is the interesting part. Like said above, I am pretty sure Nyaneve will be the one to do the "resurrection". Probably grabbing him out of TAR.

 

 

Arthurian legend...yes, a lot of similarities there, along with Jesus.

 

Lancelot = Lan

 

Gawain = Gawyne

 

Arthur Pendragon = Artur Paendrag Tanreall/Hawking

[FarShainMael]

Per the Aelfinn answer, I think Rand has already died - as Dark Rand, on Dragonmount, during VoG.

 

There are biblical concepts which RJ may have used: the notion that baptism is a sort of spiritual death-to-sin followed by rebirth; and of course Rand's three-day absence* from Tear. I think Rand's epiphany was a kind of spiritual death, in which he 'killed' his DarthSelf and was reborn as Rand Sedai.

 

*See ToM 12, p188, Nynaeve PoV:

"Three days.. Three days he's been gone! The Last Battle looms, and the Dragon Reborn is missing!"

 

And then Cadsuane's tea suddenly tastes good.. Wonderful, in fact.

 

Will he die again, at TG? 'Twice to live and twice to die'. Yes, I think he will, and I think he won't be resurrected this time.. he'll turn up in T'A'R, and remain there. Possibly he'll respond when Mat sounds the HoV.

[yoshinobu]

Per the Aelfinn answer, I think Rand has already died - as Dark Rand, on Dragonmount, during VoG.

 

There are biblical concepts which RJ may have used: the notion that baptism is a sort of spiritual death-to-sin followed by rebirth; and of course Rand's three-day absence* from Tear. I think Rand's epiphany was a kind of spiritual death, in which he 'killed' his DarthSelf and was reborn as Rand Sedai.

 

*See ToM 12, p188, Nynaeve PoV:

"Three days.. Three days he's been gone! The Last Battle looms, and the Dragon Reborn is missing!"

 

And then Cadsuane's tea suddenly tastes good.. Wonderful, in fact.

 

Will he die again, at TG? 'Twice to live and twice to die'. Yes, I think he will, and I think he won't be resurrected this time.. he'll turn up in T'A'R, and remain there. Possibly he'll respond when Mat sounds the HoV.

Also, if my memory serves me, Jesus died on a hill.

[herid]

Per the Aelfinn answer, I think Rand has already died - as Dark Rand, on Dragonmount, during VoG.

 

There are biblical concepts which RJ may have used: the notion that baptism is a sort of spiritual death-to-sin followed by rebirth; and of course Rand's three-day absence* from Tear. I think Rand's epiphany was a kind of spiritual death, in which he 'killed' his DarthSelf and was reborn as Rand Sedai.

 

*See ToM 12, p188, Nynaeve PoV:

"Three days.. Three days he's been gone! The Last Battle looms, and the Dragon Reborn is missing!"

 

And then Cadsuane's tea suddenly tastes good.. Wonderful, in fact.

 

Will he die again, at TG? 'Twice to live and twice to die'. Yes, I think he will, and I think he won't be resurrected this time.. he'll turn up in T'A'R, and remain there. Possibly he'll respond when Mat sounds the HoV.

I'm sure this is a wrong interpretation. there is no concept of "spiritual death" in the books. a prophecy in the story has to make sense to the characters in the story. this kind of explanation definitely won't. None of them heard of Christianity, baptism or spiritual rebirth. and we have a different prophecy in the story referring to Rand's experience on Dragonmount as a blind man seeing again. This is a very different metaphor and I don't see both being used to describe the same event.

 

On top of which there are several other indications (which have been oft mention in this thread) that we'll see actual physical death and rebirth.

[Jillain Sanche]

In addition to herid's astute argument, which is clearly true, there is also a further observation or foretelling by Min, and which remains a mystery so far to us all.

 

That is her seeing that "Alivia will help him die."

 

How will she do this?

 

When will the event transpire?

 

To what effect?

 

Will it be a physical death?

 

Or will it be a near-death experience? We just don't know, yet.

(But as noted by herid, Christianity as such has nothing to do with it.)

 

If Nynaeve rips him from TAR, that would in essence be to reincarnate him (which more of an Eastern religious concept, pertaining to Hinduism and its close philosophical kin), as happened to Birgitte.

[Ananta]

Wasn't it said that ripping Hero out of TAR would/could lead to the permanent death of the Hero? If so, then I find it quite possible that Birgitte, for example, never again goes back to TAR as a Hero. Or she has to do some seriously epic deeds to get back her Hero status?

 

So if that's the case, then Rand can't simply be rev-killed again and again, because his death would wipe out his Hero status? D:

[Terez]

As I discussed in the FAQ article linked upthread (and in my sig), Min has had viewings of Birgitte indicating that she is still tied to the Wheel, and to Gaidal. The main consequence for Birgitte is that she can remember Gaidal at all, which leaves her to worry about whether she will ever see him again. Min could tell her one way or another, but Min doesn't often volunteer her viewings any more, and she does not appear to have told Birgitte. And her birth cycle was disrupted, so now she will be younger than Gaidal, when he was always older before. Rand won't have that problem.

 

Permanent death of the Hero occurs when they are killed after their death in Tel'aran'rhiod (in other words, it's probably not permanent death if they are incarnate and just visiting). Just like for the wolves. Or DBZ for that matter. If you already have a halo and you die again, that's it for your soul.

 

I also commented on the literary problems with stacking up four prophecies promising the death of the main character, and then copping out with a metaphorical explanation. It's called cheating.

[FarShainMael]

In addition to herid's astute argument, which is clearly true,

 

It's true, but it's not relevant, I think. 'Spiritual death' doesn't have to be explicitly named or mentioned for it to be a possibility. After all, Tyr, Odin, and Hephaistos have not been named anywhere in the books!

 

there is also a further observation or foretelling by Min, and which remains a mystery so far to us all.

 

That is her seeing that "Alivia will help him die."

 

How will she do this?

 

When will the event transpire?

 

To what effect?

 

Will it be a physical death?

 

Or will it be a near-death experience? We just don't know, yet.

(But as noted by herid, Christianity as such has nothing to do with it.)

 

We haven't seen or heard from Alivia since she was seen by Nyn and Min when they were going to report to the WO (TGS37), when she looked 'disappointed' (p578). What was she disappointed about? Min's PoV notes that Alivia spends a lot of time trying to get the AS to teach her new weaves. We know she learns quickly.

 

This happened before Cadsuane sent for / fetched Tam, in her attempt to save Rand, which luckily was successful as it led to VoG.

 

Wild speculation on the basis of no evidence whatsoever: If Alivia 'helped Rand die' in VoG, it can only have been by helping to bring Tam to him, perhaps by learning how to make a Gateway, going to Tam on her own initiative, persuading Tam that it was essential that he go to Rand. Note that we did not see any of Tam deciding to go to Tear; who came to ask him; what he said; was he eager or reluctant; nothing. All we have seen was him telling Perrin he had to go (ToM29, p462) and that he had been sworn to silence on why.

 

'Twice to live, and twice to die': this suggests that Rand will experience two deaths. One spiritual, and one physical (at SG?) perhaps.