Thoughts on Logain

[MasterAblar]

Based on the Age of Legends and Aviendha's 3rd experience in Rhuidean, I want to see all Ashaman in the White Tower. The unification of male and female power is a pre-requisite to strength and greatness. The BT will give Ashaman their independence and symbol; but it will institutionalize the divide.

 

The BT served an important purpose; and needed to be there for Rand to succeed. But that, in my opinion, was for a limited stage when Ashaman were considered rabid dogs. Now the world knows that they cannot go mad; and Nynaeve can teach others how to heal all of them from the previous taint. With Ashaman accepted in the world, why remain divided?

 

What is it about Aviendha's 3rd experience in Rhuidean that makes you want to see the Ashaman in the WT.

 

I want them to unite eventually as well, but I want it to be realistic. With so much hate and prejudice between the two groups, I don't consider it realistic that they unite unless sufficient time has passed. Straight after the Last Battle is not enough time. Not only this but I want the Ashaman and Aes Sedai to unite as equals, not for one groups to go to the other as beggars. Division is not bad at first. Let them grow on their own and earn the world's respect, instead of being limitied by the laws and reputation of the Aes Sedai. Eventually, in order to maximise the potential of both groups, unity should be achieved, but it is not necessary at first.

 

As for your last question, on top of the above reason for which division is not necessarily bad, I would ask you whether or not the world has accepted them. The world barely believes the saidin is cleansed, and even once they do, consider Silviana's words on the subject at the end of tGS, and Egwene's thoughts as well.

[Shawnchan]

Nice analysis of Elaida's foretelling and the order of events. But I hope that the black tower will be destroyed. (Anything symbol Tiam built, I want demolished).

 

It's more than a symbol of Taim though, it's a symbol for all the Ashaman. It was a haven for all male channellers, the only one in the world, and it gave them a purpose. They certainly believe in it's future as we can see in Androl's pov. Taim's palace however, I wouldn't mind being razed to the ground.

 

Based on the Age of Legends and Aviendha's 3rd experience in Rhuidean, I want to see all Ashaman in the White Tower. The unification of male and female power is a pre-requisite to strength and greatness. The BT will give Ashaman their independence and symbol; but it will institutionalize the divide.

 

The BT served an important purpose; and needed to be there for Rand to succeed. But that, in my opinion, was for a limited stage when Ashaman were considered rabid dogs. Now the world knows that they cannot go mad; and Nynaeve can teach others how to heal all of them from the previous taint. With Ashaman accepted in the world, why remain divided?

 

I really do believe that this the way things will play out. It seems to be an eventuality.

 

I like that there is one place in the world has plenty of quarried, cut and, polished stone...Enough perhaps, to build another tower to balance the servants.

 

The Black Tower of course has walled in nearly 5 miles of Andor.

 

On Topic.

 

I believe that Logain will indeed kill Taim and, become the new "M'Hael". (As much as you hate that term ;))

[Suttree]

With Ashaman accepted in the world, why remain divided?

 

At this point in the story Ashaman are far from accepted.

 

TGS

Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

 

They hated male channelers.

[damandred]

They wouldn't if Egwene had 50 AS, outside the WT, swearing on a stack of bibles that Saidin was now clean.

[Maleshub]

With Ashaman accepted in the world, why remain divided?

 

At this point in the story Ashaman are far from accepted.

 

TGS

Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

 

They hated male channelers.

 

Aes Sedai are not totally accepted in the world; so Ashaman will always be viewed suspiciously. What matters is the WT's acceptance. Although not matured to full acceptance yet, the integration has started with the bondings. No one denies that Rand cleansed Saidin. And Nynaeve can give a clean bill of health to the Ashaman to ascertain their sanity. All the ingredients seem to be in place to have the male half of the power back in the world after TG.

[Shawnchan]

With Ashaman accepted in the world, why remain divided?

 

At this point in the story Ashaman are far from accepted.

 

TGS

Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

 

They hated male channelers.

 

Aes Sedai are not totally accepted in the world; so Ashaman will always be viewed suspiciously. What matters is the WT's acceptance. Although not matured to full acceptance yet, the integration has started with the bondings. No one denies that Rand cleansed Saidin. And Nynaeve can give a clean bill of health to the Ashaman to ascertain their sanity. All the ingredients seem to be in place to have the male half of the power back in the world after TG.

 

Aes Sedai are accepted in the world and have been for thousands of years, if only from the fear of them angle. At least they are "clean" and, they have the oaths. Do people trust them? Of course not. "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely". I love how Nynaeve explains this.

 

The Asha'Man or male channelers have been "dirty" for 2000 years. They will always be viewed suspiciously. After all, stories of Male Channelers have been used for countless decades to scare children. It will take a while to convince the people and, change their perspective of the world. After the division in the Tower; its going to take much more than a decree from the child Amyrlin to make people believe the message that Saidin is clean. We all know the gossip. No-one will believe that Saidin has been cleansed.

 

If the bondings are to be the key to integration, why is Egg-Wayne so opposed? She will never endorse this. The world leaders by extension will not endorse this, as well out of fear of "the Towers wrath."

 

I believe that the FOM will be the shift when Rand "finally" lays down the law and lays the smack on the ego-centric white Tower.

[Suttree]

Aes Sedai are not totally accepted in the world; so Ashaman will always be viewed suspiciously. What matters is the WT's acceptance. Although not matured to full acceptance yet, the integration has started with the bondings. No one denies that Rand cleansed Saidin. And Nynaeve can give a clean bill of health to the Ashaman to ascertain their sanity. All the ingredients seem to be in place to have the male half of the power back in the world after TG.

 

3,000 years of prejudice do not disappear overnight regardless of what AS do or say. Don't fall into the trap of thinking from a reader's all knowing perspective. The percentage of people in the world that know Saidin has been cleansed is very small. Just look at Rand's quote. Some AS knowing the truth of things changes nothing in terms of how the majority if the world sees it. It will take a very long time for that to change.

 

I agree that the WT and BT should join and don't think it will take as long as Mastar Ablar says. We do need to be realistic however in terms of timeframe for things happening. We are talking years not months.

[Maleshub]

3,000 years of prejudice do not disappear overnight regardless of what AS do or say. Don't fall into the trap of thinking from a reader's all knowing perspective. The percentage of people in the world that know Saidin has been cleansed is very small. Just look at Rand's quote. Some AS knowing the truth of things changes nothing in terms of how the majority if the world sees it. It will take a very long time for that to change.

 

I agree that the WT and BT should join and don't think it will take as long as Mastar Ablar says. We do need to be realistic however in terms of timeframe for things happening. We are talking years not months.

 

I totally agree that the integration into society would take a long time (probably decades or even centuries). When I talked about the cleansing, I meant that Aes Sedai now believe (or can be convinced) that it has been cleansed. The ones bonding Ashaman or those working in circles with them can verify that the taint isn't there anymore. More importantly, Aes Sedai helped cleanse it (Nynaeve, Cadsuane, etc....). So, there is now a foundation that the male and female halves can work together after the BT situation is resolved.

[Yamahako]

The Ashaman defending the rest of Randland against the Seanchan invasion (Guardians balancing the Servants) while Aes Sedai help clean up the aftermath of Tarmon Gaidon might go a long way toward changing the worlds opinions of them.

[damandred]

It matters little who accepts the Asha'man. If the BT and WT want to join, who's going to stop them?

It will probably take years/decades/centuries for the world to get over its distrust of male channellers. But if both towers decide its best for them to join, there's very little the world can do about it.

[supersprode]

That dream Egwene had of Logain stepping over a black rock(black tower, or black dias taim's throney chair rests on) that turned to Rand's body, which broke as he stepped over it as a mask being broken through, Logain's ability to see Taverin(he saw Rand and laughed in Caemlyn because he knew Rand would do more damage than he) and Min's visions of glory for Logain...

 

I think Taim will try to impersonate Rand, perhaps when he disappears doing whatever the heck is going to happen after seeing Lanfear in the last book. Taim will try to control the black tower by impersonating Rand with illuion, Lain will see through it because of his ability to see Taverin(and break the mask of Rand) and kill him and his darkfriends and those that pretty clearly seemed turned by channeling through myrdraal, and atain glory by becoming leader of the black tower. I rather think it will be something like, Taim impersonating Rand, making proclomations to attack the white tower or some such with all the ashaman gathered, Logain breaking the illusion and rallying the rest in a big battle that kills Taim and most of the baddies. Ge's got some 50+ to wipe out in a purge to mirror Egwene's "Great Purge," as Jprdan so liked to mirror things like that. And i don't think he'll kill them all himself, or gain power without exposing Taim and his baddies as darkfriends or traitors, so a public exposure and pitched battle such as this scenario is what I think must happen. Plus, something like this would bring them and the white tower together in the aftermath in a single page in one way or another. Beyond that, who knows what the last battle will be like, but it looks like everyone is marching to SG or else maybe something like the Eye of the World end battle where they hold everything off while Rand and his groupies go fight alone, but sure will see logain in some fight scenes following and little else, but these in themselves seem a lot of pages. Lots for logain to do in the next book. Anyway those are my predictions. Possibly something to do with his house and lineage which are referenced a few times, but doubt it, and little else beyond that.