Is Taim a Chosen?

[mb]

Like I posted in various threads, the earliest for Ishamael's/Moridin's resurrection seems to be in Crown of Swords.

When eavesdropping on Graendal's & Sammael's conversation, Moridin raised his eyebrows at the mention of the supposed truce which indicates that Moridin was not certain of the truth.

[herid]

Like I posted in various threads, the earliest for Ishamael's/Moridin's resurrection seems to be in Crown of Swords.

When eavesdropping on Graendal's & Sammael's conversation, Moridin raised his eyebrows at the mention of the supposed truce which indicates that Moridin was not certain of the truth.

This is an interesting argument but it is hardly conclusive.

The watcher’s eyebrows rose. A truce? A claim as risky as it was false, by all evidence.

-CoS, Ch 20

so his immediate reaction was definitely skepticism and some mysterious evidence to the contrary is cited. That evidence could easily be the incident with Sammael's messenger.

 

Also, the episode with the messenger was a while ago LoC, Ch 16. Things may have changed since then and Rand is well known to keep many things secret. Graendal believed Sammael that he had a truce with Rand despite a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. Other Forsaken could believe that he could possibly agree to such truce as well.

[Mr Ares]

I see no subsequent confirmation that Taim is Taim. I would take Basheres original comment as more valid than Bashere using the guys name. Otherwise it would be like saying what someone is called is better evidence of their identity than their thoughts, or who recognises him. For example Mr Ares your way of looking at it-Bashere not recognising Taim at first being overruled by Bashere calling him Taim-would inevitably turn Demandred not recognising Flynn into a moot point (were it not for the RJ comment of course) and taking into account I think Bashere is trying to call out Ishamael, when Ishamael is doing something he is very very good at... its a walk in the park. Bashere tries to call Taim out. Do not deny it. Ishamaels response was to get Bashere to refer to him as Taim, and his method is to piss Bashere off. Easy money.

 

Some people say there were Black Ajah Aes Sedai involved in Taims False Dragonhood. While Im not sure about that myself I think its a possibility, so this would maybe provide an explanation as to how Moridin knew what happened between Taim and Bashere.

There are important differences between Demandred not recognising Flinn and Bashere not recognising Taim. We know that Taim knows Flinn quite well, at least in terms of appearance. We don't know how well Bashere knows Taim - he's seen him before, evidently, but they might only have met once or twice. Also, Taim does look different - we know from the books that he's lost his beard, and we know from RJ that Rand overestimated his age - he looked older due to the rigours of his journey (a point that Taimidin supporters have yet to argue their way around). Those two points together could easily throw Bashere off, but that coupled with him knowing stuff that wasn't common knowledge indicates that this really is Taim. After this, Bashere's doubts are forgotten, never mentioned again - if he is still unsure this man is Taim, surely we should have had something indicating such? Bashere simply calling this guy Taim is not enough, you have to make him accept you are Taim, forget his doubts. That's what Taim did. That takes more than just annoying him. Bashere did identify the guy as Taim - that much is not in doubt. He had initial doubts, then he confirmed the guy was Taim. To say otherwise is to ignore inconvenient evidence to the contrary. As for the BA point, all unsupported guesswork - maybe they were involved, and if they were involved then maybe they were aware of what happened at the truce, and if they were then maybe they passed that information on to Moridin. No evidence. On the other hand, we do have evidence this guy is exactly who he says he is. That's the simple, clear answer.

[OptimusPrime]

I see no subsequent confirmation that Taim is Taim. I would take Basheres original comment as more valid than Bashere using the guys name. Otherwise it would be like saying what someone is called is better evidence of their identity than their thoughts, or who recognises him. For example Mr Ares your way of looking at it-Bashere not recognising Taim at first being overruled by Bashere calling him Taim-would inevitably turn Demandred not recognising Flynn into a moot point (were it not for the RJ comment of course) and taking into account I think Bashere is trying to call out Ishamael, when Ishamael is doing something he is very very good at... its a walk in the park. Bashere tries to call Taim out. Do not deny it. Ishamaels response was to get Bashere to refer to him as Taim, and his method is to piss Bashere off. Easy money.

 

Some people say there were Black Ajah Aes Sedai involved in Taims False Dragonhood. While Im not sure about that myself I think its a possibility, so this would maybe provide an explanation as to how Moridin knew what happened between Taim and Bashere.

There are important differences between Demandred not recognising Flinn and Bashere not recognising Taim. We know that Taim knows Flinn quite well, at least in terms of appearance. We don't know how well Bashere knows Taim - he's seen him before, evidently, but they might only have met once or twice.

 

I would rather go with Basheres original assumption on his own capability to recognise Taim, not to mention the fact that he was given 9000 soldiers to find and deal with Taim. And the fact that Taim was able to get to people Bashere held close to him. Come on man, saying Bashere might not know Taim well enough to identify him when its clearly hinted at that he does, its weak.

 

Also, Taim does look different - we know from the books that he's lost his beard, and we know from RJ that Rand overestimated his age - he looked older due to the rigours of his journey (a point that Taimidin supporters have yet to argue their way around).

 

A shapechanged face can still get dirty. Its not an illusion.

 

Those two points together could easily throw Bashere off, but that coupled with him knowing stuff that wasn't common knowledge indicates that this really is Taim.

 

A witness is all thats needed. There are plenty of Darkfriends around in case you hadnt noticed.

 

As for the BA point, all unsupported guesswork - maybe they were involved, and if they were involved then maybe they were aware of what happened at the truce, and if they were then maybe they passed that information on to Moridin. No evidence. On the other hand, we do have evidence this guy is exactly who he says he is. That's the simple, clear answer.

 

But then you are playing the same game. Bashere offers his doubts, and has a whole army to help him deal with this man. But then he might not recognise the guy if he had a bit of a shave, because apparantly Bashere is an idiot. I mean look at it this way, hes been sent to deal with a criminal that can channel. But even though he got to the Dragon Reborn before Taim, the Dragon Reborn still sides with Taim, the criminal. After Taim made Bashere look foolish. What else could Bashere do?

 

Its not Bashere you should be doubting. Rand only made big mistakes around that time, and this was the biggest of them all.

[Suttree]

A shapechanged face can still get dirty. Its not an illusion.

 

So Moridin just allowed himself to be "rode hard and put away wet", harried across half a continent? All this when he could have just traveled straight to Caemlyn? Come on man the whole thing is ludicrous...

[OptimusPrime]

Come on man the whole thing is ludicrous...

 

Whats ludicrous is a man having dirt on his face apparantly proves he is who he says he is. Because for some reason not only does the ability to Travel stop someone from getting dirty, but apparantly this same guy who is clearly a bad guy is given credit in his claim that he doesnt know Travelling.

 

Taims face is dirty. Moridin is immune to that. Taim isnt Moridin.

[OptimusPrime]

A shapechanged face can still get dirty. Its not an illusion.

 

So Moridin just allowed himself to be "rode hard and put away wet", harried across half a continent? All this when he could have just traveled

 

Sorry to doublequote you but...

 

Lord of Chaos p109

 

"This lot was dredged from the bottom of..." Taim began contemptuously, then stopped in the middle of the farmyard staring at Rand. Chickens scratched in the dust around his feet. "You havent tested any of them? Why, in the name of...? You cannot, can you? You can Travel, but you dont know how to test for the talent."

 

So, to revise whats being said...

 

Taim having dirt on his face raises a question of why Moridin would travel by foot it seems.

 

-Taim is at the very least on super uber trusted minion level. He is clearly a big asset somehow judging from his position of trust as herid said, not letting him have access to the Travelling weave would imply an expendable aspect to him which would go against pretty much everything we have seen that links him to the Shadow.

-Taim just showed us he knows of Traveling. But lo and behold, he has dirt on his face. Suddenly the dirt is dropped off the list of phorensic evidence.

-He is strong enough in the One Power for Traveling. If he knows of it, and is strong enough... its not a big assumption now, is it?

 

Taim, whoever the hell he is, can Travel. Doesnt matter who the guy is, the reason for the dirt is the same either way. Why are you not asking the same question, why would Taim "travel" to Rand when he could have "Travelled?" It means nothing either way. Dirt on a mans face is dirt on a mans face, not an indicator of him being unable to Travel.

 

One possible scenario off the top of my head. Its possible that Taim/Moridin didnt Travel to meet Rand because he might have thought Rand had warded the city. But the guy can Travel, whether he is Taim or Moridin or Cenn Buie.

[Suttree]

A shapechanged face can still get dirty. Its not an illusion.

 

So Moridin just allowed himself to be "rode hard and put away wet", harried across half a continent? All this when he could have just traveled

 

Sorry to doublequote you but...

 

Lord of Chaos p109

 

"This lot was dredged from the bottom of..." Taim began contemptuously, then stopped in the middle of the farmyard staring at Rand. Chickens scratched in the dust around his feet. "You havent tested any of them? Why, in the name of...? You cannot, can you? You can Travel, but you dont know how to test for the talent."

 

So, to revise whats being said...

 

Taim having dirt on his face raises a question of why Moridin would travel by foot it seems.

 

-Taim is at the very least on super uber trusted minion level. He is clearly a big asset somehow judging from his position of trust as herid said, not letting him have access to the Travelling weave would imply an expendable aspect to him which would go against pretty much everything we have seen that links him to the Shadow.

-Taim just showed us he knows of Traveling. But lo and behold, he has dirt on his face. Suddenly the dirt is dropped off the list of phorensic evidence.

-He is strong enough in the One Power for Traveling. If he knows of it, and is strong enough... its not a big assumption now, is it?

 

Taim, whoever the hell he is, can Travel. Doesnt matter who the guy is, the reason for the dirt is the same either way. Why are you not asking the same question, why would Taim "travel" to Rand when he could have "Travelled?" It means nothing either way. Dirt on a mans face is dirt on a mans face, not an indicator of him being unable to Travel.

 

One possible scenario off the top of my head. Its possible that Taim/Moridin didnt Travel to meet Rand because he might have thought Rand had warded the city. But the guy can Travel, whether he is Taim or Moridin or Cenn Buie.

 

No idea why you keep completely ignoring RJ's quote to focus on a dirty face. RJ was telling us that Taim was exhausted from being chased across a continent. Dirt is never mentioned as far as I can recall. He looks aged because he "has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn." In addition just because a character knows the name for travelling doesn't mean they know how. In fact we have seen the opposite be true.

[capuga]

Taim having dirt on his face raises a question of why Moridin would travel by foot it seems.

 

It's not the point that Taim has dirt on his face. The point is the "rode hard and put away wet" quote is from RJ. Just like several mentioned (might have been in the Is Taim an Imposter thread) where RJ talks about Caemlyn being a last refuge for Taim. There would be no reason for RJ to talk this way about Taim if he was anyone other than Taim. Moridin certainly doesn't need Caemlyn as a refuge.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have no idea why people are so obsessed with the 13 towers dream meaning Taim isnt a Chosen.

 

Edit: I was mistaken.

 

However, the point still stands really.

 

The 13 tower dream was representing the 13 that were trapped at Shayol Ghul. Not the Dreadlords or every single possible DF.

 

Taim could have easily been given the Mark. he was never one of the 13 that were trapped, he would not appear in the dream.

 

The key point being, I say again. The dream was representing the 13 that were trapped. Not the Chosen as a whole.

 

So, if Taim had the mark, he wouldnt be included in the dream, since he is not one of the 13 famous Forsaken. He is a 3rd age Chosen, two completely different things, there is absolutely no reason why a 3rd age Forsaken should show up in a dream depicting the 13 famous forsaken, who are a step above the 3rd agers.

[Mr Ares]

I see no subsequent confirmation that Taim is Taim. I would take Basheres original comment as more valid than Bashere using the guys name. Otherwise it would be like saying what someone is called is better evidence of their identity than their thoughts, or who recognises him. For example Mr Ares your way of looking at it-Bashere not recognising Taim at first being overruled by Bashere calling him Taim-would inevitably turn Demandred not recognising Flynn into a moot point (were it not for the RJ comment of course) and taking into account I think Bashere is trying to call out Ishamael, when Ishamael is doing something he is very very good at... its a walk in the park. Bashere tries to call Taim out. Do not deny it. Ishamaels response was to get Bashere to refer to him as Taim, and his method is to piss Bashere off. Easy money.

 

Some people say there were Black Ajah Aes Sedai involved in Taims False Dragonhood. While Im not sure about that myself I think its a possibility, so this would maybe provide an explanation as to how Moridin knew what happened between Taim and Bashere.

There are important differences between Demandred not recognising Flinn and Bashere not recognising Taim. We know that Taim knows Flinn quite well, at least in terms of appearance. We don't know how well Bashere knows Taim - he's seen him before, evidently, but they might only have met once or twice.

I would rather go with Basheres original assumption on his own capability to recognise Taim, not to mention the fact that he was given 9000 soldiers to find and deal with Taim. And the fact that Taim was able to get to people Bashere held close to him. Come on man, saying Bashere might not know Taim well enough to identify him when its clearly hinted at that he does, its weak.

I don't see what Bashere's army has to do with anything. As for recognising him, it is quite possible to not recognise someone you know. Especially if you don't know them that well, or it's been a while, or they look different. Now, we don't know when Taim and Bashere last met, or how well they know each other, but we do know that Taim looks different. Yes, Bashere knows Taim well enough to identify him, but given that Taim looks different, he is thrown off. Subsequently, he ackowledges this guy is Taim, and never mentions his doubts again, never even tries, nor does he ever think on them in his POVs. Your entire argument here hinges on the clearly ludicrous belief that the slightest hint of doubt as to who someone is means that person must be an imposter. I don't know why RJ threw in Bashere's doubts, but I have demonstrated that there could be reasons for it that don't require Taim to be an imposter.

 

Also, Taim does look different - we know from the books that he's lost his beard, and we know from RJ that Rand overestimated his age - he looked older due to the rigours of his journey(a point that Taimidin supporters have yet to argue their way around).

 

A shapechanged face can still get dirty. Its not an illusion.

Dirt has nothing to do with it. The point is he looked different - that difference could throw Bashere off. Now, the idea that Moridin has nowhere to run but Caemlyn (per RJ), that he's the kind of guy who can't help but leave a trail over hundreds of miles for Bashere to follow because travelling quietly is not in his nature, that he looks years older due to sleeping rough doesn't fit with the character of Moridin from the books. Nothing we know of Moridin fits with what RJ has told us of Taim. Him spending months sleeping in ditches is only one thing that Taimidin supporters struggle to explain.

 

Those two points together could easily throw Bashere off, but that coupled with him knowing stuff that wasn't common knowledge indicates that this really is Taim.

A witness is all thats needed. There are plenty of Darkfriends around in case you hadnt noticed.

Name one that was present for this. As I say, this was not common knowledge. We don't know who knows, but we have no reason to believe Moridin does.

 

As for the BA point, all unsupported guesswork - maybe they were involved, and if they were involved then maybe they were aware of what happened at the truce, and if they were then maybe they passed that information on to Moridin. No evidence. On the other hand, we do have evidence this guy is exactly who he says he is. That's the simple, clear answer.

 

But then you are playing the same game. Bashere offers his doubts, and has a whole army to help him deal with this man. But then he might not recognise the guy if he had a bit of a shave, because apparantly Bashere is an idiot. I mean look at it this way, hes been sent to deal with a criminal that can channel. But even though he got to the Dragon Reborn before Taim, the Dragon Reborn still sides with Taim, the criminal. After Taim made Bashere look foolish. What else could Bashere do?

The army has nothing to do with it. I don't consider him an idiot for not recognising Taim, as I don't know precisely how different he looked and how well Bashere knows Taim. Rand sides with Taim? He offers him the same amnesty he offers every male channeler, and Bashere knew he would because he was told about it in their first meeting. What could Bashere do? Well, if he doesn't think this guy is Taim, tell someone. Don't ackowledge the guy as Taim and then never mention your doubts again.

 

"This lot was dredged from the bottom of..." Taim began contemptuously, then stopped in the middle of the farmyard staring at Rand. Chickens scratched in the dust around his feet. "You havent tested any of them? Why, in the name of...? You cannot, can you? You can Travel, but you dont know how to test for the talent."

 

So, to revise whats being said...

 

Taim having dirt on his face raises a question of why Moridin would travel by foot it seems.

 

-Taim is at the very least on super uber trusted minion level. He is clearly a big asset somehow judging from his position of trust as herid said, not letting him have access to the Travelling weave would imply an expendable aspect to him which would go against pretty much everything we have seen that links him to the Shadow.

-Taim just showed us he knows of Traveling. But lo and behold, he has dirt on his face. Suddenly the dirt is dropped off the list of phorensic evidence.

-He is strong enough in the One Power for Traveling. If he knows of it, and is strong enough... its not a big assumption now, is it?

 

Taim, whoever the hell he is, can Travel. Doesnt matter who the guy is, the reason for the dirt is the same either way. Why are you not asking the same question, why would Taim "travel" to Rand when he could have "Travelled?" It means nothing either way. Dirt on a mans face is dirt on a mans face, not an indicator of him being unable to Travel.

 

One possible scenario off the top of my head. Its possible that Taim/Moridin didnt Travel to meet Rand because he might have thought Rand had warded the city. But the guy can Travel, whether he is Taim or Moridin or Cenn Buie.

There is no evidence that Taim could Travel. In fact, it seems incredibly out of character, and ignores RJ's quotes on the matter, to assume that he could but just didn't. Him being a big asset? Well, he is now, because he's running the BT. It could be as easy as the Shadow not giving a damn until he lucked into an important job. So your reasoning for him knowing Traveling is weak. Knowing of Traveling is not the same as knowing how to Travel. Otherwise the AS knew how to Travel at the start of the series. Cadsuane had heard of it, and was strong enough, which is why she knew how to do it... as soon as Sorilea got around to teaching her.

[Samhain]

Has Rand seen Taim since accessing the True Power? If the answer is no, then its still possible that Taim is Moridin, disguised by the True Power.

[herid]

Has Rand seen Taim since accessing the True Power? If the answer is no, then its still possible that Taim is Moridin, disguised by the True Power.

They haven't seen each other since Rand's link with Moridin was formed (end of CoS). But Taim's disguise (if he is Moridin in disguise) doesn't have to be TP. It could be OP with inverted weaves. that's how Moggy was hidden in Salidar.

[OptimusPrime]

Ok the level of quoting needed is becoming beyond my ability, so I'll just whack out the responses.

 

I havent read those RJ comments myself so all I can say is that they sound vague. Taim was indeed ridden hard and put out wet. The Aes Sedai captured him before Moridin got the body.

 

The RJ comment about Rands amnesty being Taims last chance sounds like a step around explanation. Just look at it from afar from a moment. It is generally accepted that Taim was a Darkfriend before coming to Rand, am I right?

 

This would imply that RJs comment wasnt as out and out simple (although as I said Im only going off what you guys have said about it here) as people seem to think. Put it this way, Rands amnesty was not Taims last chance because he had the Shadow looking after him. He went there to infiltrate, no two ways about it.

 

However I am not saying RJ lied, he clearly did not. Rand LOOKS like Taims last chance... if you dont know who he is. Clearly, not many people do know who he is.

 

The guys confidence level in Lord of Chaos... he had sword points digging into him, and you guys are all like "Oh my God that is SOLID evidence he isnt disguising himself" but you ignore the fact that the guy isnt bothered by them.

 

Lord of Chaos p95

 

"Taim," Bashere growled, hand darting for his hilt, "you...!"

 

Rand stepped in front of him, seizing his wrist with the blade half drawn. The guards blades, Tumads as well, were touching Taim now, very likely touching flesh the way they were shoved against his coat, but he did not flinch.

 

Also, for all the people who like all the subtle foreshadowing with wordings and whatnot, have a look at this little gem.

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Mazrim Taim?"He sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it was not his.

 

Im not saying that is a piece of evidence or anything. Im just saying, its worked in very well.

 

As for naming a Darkfriend who was present at the thing between Bashere and Taim, quite honestly I cant, so there it is. But I hardly think I need to know absolutely every tiny detail about it. I dont know how Moridin knows about the thing between Bashere and Taim, quite honestly I dont think thats importantt to the case, seeing as the fact that Taim knowing OF Travelling apparantly doesnt mean anything either.

[OptimusPrime]

Has Rand seen Taim since accessing the True Power? If the answer is no, then its still possible that Taim is Moridin, disguised by the True Power.

They haven't seen each other since Rand's link with Moridin was formed (end of CoS). But Taim's disguise (if he is Moridin in disguise) doesn't have to be TP. It could be OP with inverted weaves. that's how Moggy was hidden in Salidar.

 

I like to think its a True Power disguise because it explains why he has the sa'a so quickly. Unless of course Demandreds comment on the sa'a wasnt accurate, which wouldnt surprise me because hes an idiot.

[herid]

Has Rand seen Taim since accessing the True Power? If the answer is no, then its still possible that Taim is Moridin, disguised by the True Power.

They haven't seen each other since Rand's link with Moridin was formed (end of CoS). But Taim's disguise (if he is Moridin in disguise) doesn't have to be TP. It could be OP with inverted weaves. that's how Moggy was hidden in Salidar.

 

I like to think its a True Power disguise because it explains why he has the sa'a so quickly.

A tied off weave would not contribute significantly to his TP usage. The OP disguise weaves can definitely be tied off. I would expect the same should be true about the TP ones.

[Suttree]

I havent read those RJ comments myself so all I can say is that they sound vague. Taim was indeed ridden hard and put out wet. The Aes Sedai captured him before Moridin got the body.

 

Here are a few of the relevant RJ quotes so you can check them out...

 

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn’t look so old.

 

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Sodas: Is there anything you can tell us about Taim's choice to head to Andor after his escape?

RJ: Well, he really didn't have much other choice. He's a man who can channel. At that time, as far as he knows, any Aes Sedai that gets their hands on him will try to gentle him again. But the word is getting around: there are men gathering near Caemlyn, men just like him, and maybe there are enough of them that if they stick together the Aes Sedai will not be able to take them down. So he has no other choice. He can either spend a life on the run or he can enlist. He decided to enlist.

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Zaela: Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

RJ: Ta-eem, (he said it phonetically) sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a man who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world. A place where there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai wont be able to come after him.

 

RJ's blog 20 January 2006 "IT'S BEEN A WHILE"

 

- For kolp, Oberonus and NaClH2O, what Taim did to those Saldaeans wasn’t Compulsion. They just don’t have the intelligence left that would be needed for anything too exacting.

[Samhain]

One might think that having your soul placed in another body just might be one of those "other reasons" that "would have a wearing effect on anyone".

[mb]

Like I posted in various threads, the earliest for Ishamael's/Moridin's resurrection seems to be in Crown of Swords.

When eavesdropping on Graendal's & Sammael's conversation, Moridin raised his eyebrows at the mention of the supposed truce which indicates that Moridin was not certain of the truth.

This is an interesting argument but it is hardly conclusive.

The watcher’s eyebrows rose. A truce? A claim as risky as it was false, by all evidence.

-CoS, Ch 20

so his immediate reaction was definitely skepticism and some mysterious evidence to the contrary is cited. That evidence could easily be the incident with Sammael's messenger.

 

Also, the episode with the messenger was a while ago LoC, Ch 16. Things may have changed since then and Rand is well known to keep many things secret. Graendal believed Sammael that he had a truce with Rand despite a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. Other Forsaken could believe that he could possibly agree to such truce as well.

Graendal expressed skepticism at first; Lord of Chaos Chapter 23. If Graendal believed by the time Moridin eavesdropped on them, she had spent a considerable amount of time with Sammael by that time; during which he might have convinced her. Or it could be that she still doubted then and that she was playing along.

The other Forsaken, I would guess that they also would have doubted the truce at first.

 

 

The "Kill Rand" order to me also indicates that Taim is not Moridin.

[OptimusPrime]

I havent read those RJ comments myself so all I can say is that they sound vague. Taim was indeed ridden hard and put out wet. The Aes Sedai captured him before Moridin got the body.

 

Here are a few of the relevant RJ quotes so you can check them out...

 

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn’t look so old.

 

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Sodas: Is there anything you can tell us about Taim's choice to head to Andor after his escape?

RJ: Well, he really didn't have much other choice. He's a man who can channel. At that time, as far as he knows, any Aes Sedai that gets their hands on him will try to gentle him again. But the word is getting around: there are men gathering near Caemlyn, men just like him, and maybe there are enough of them that if they stick together the Aes Sedai will not be able to take them down. So he has no other choice. He can either spend a life on the run or he can enlist. He decided to enlist.

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Zaela: Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

RJ: Ta-eem, (he said it phonetically) sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a man who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world. A place where there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai wont be able to come after him.

 

RJ's blog 20 January 2006 "IT'S BEEN A WHILE"

 

- For kolp, Oberonus and NaClH2O, what Taim did to those Saldaeans wasn’t Compulsion. They just don’t have the intelligence left that would be needed for anything too exacting.

 

Thank you.

 

I dont see how it proves anything though. RJ explains a motive for why Taim would go to Rand. But as I said, he also said it is the only safe place he can go. We can deduce that because of Taims Darkfriendness that there are in fact plenty of places he could go. It seems clear to me that the Shadow sent Taim. They didnt recruit him while he was AT the Black Tower, they had him before that. So Taim HAD a motive in finding a safe haven, but that wasnt his main reason.

 

Think about it. If Taim was Ishamael RJ would have had a lot of prepared answers to keep himself from revealing the truth and it would be so for any alter ego he was questioned about. His comment about Taim being put out to dry means nothing, Taims BODY has been through a lot but thats all regarding the body, not who is in it. The body stays in the condition it was in, its not like having a different soul put in it gives the thing a full recovery from physical exertion or whatever.

[dholm]

Why would Moridin have a wearying journey to Caemlyn? He can Travel. Why would Moridin want other men who can channel around him to protect him against Aes Sedai? Unless you disregard RJ's comments for no reason, those are the questions you need to answer instead of dismissing.

 

Taim the minion would want to join male channelers to protect himself against Aes Sedai -- it is good sense, if you are pretending not to be a Friend of the Dark. While he could simply stay near the forces of the Shadow, he is far more useful in a position of trust. That is how the Friends of the Dark operate, after all. Taim the minion would also be forced on a wearying journey to reach Caemlyn from being en route to Tar Valon, presuming the Chosen did not teach him Travelling.

[Mr Ares]

Has Rand seen Taim since accessing the True Power? If the answer is no, then its still possible that Taim is Moridin, disguised by the True Power.

They haven't seen each other since Rand's link with Moridin was formed (end of CoS).

They met in PoD, actually.

 

The RJ comment about Rands amnesty being Taims last chance sounds like a step around explanation. Just look at it from afar from a moment. It is generally accepted that Taim was a Darkfriend before coming to Rand, am I right?

 

This would imply that RJs comment wasnt as out and out simple (although as I said Im only going off what you guys have said about it here) as people seem to think. Put it this way, Rands amnesty was not Taims last chance because he had the Shadow looking after him. He went there to infiltrate, no two ways about it.

But was he sent to infiltrate, or did he do it of his own volition? It could be that the Shadow wanted to cut their losses with Taim, didn't think it was worth trying to smuggle him to safety (or maybe he was just unable to contact any Darkfriend network capable of helping him). He couldn't turn to the Shadow for safety, so he turned to Rand.

 

The guys confidence level in Lord of Chaos... he had sword points digging into him, and you guys are all like "Oh my God that is SOLID evidence he isnt disguising himself" but you ignore the fact that the guy isnt bothered by them.

Well, that doesn't really help either way. It's perfectly possible to have swords jabbing into your chest and not be unduly bothered by it.

 

As for naming a Darkfriend who was present at the thing between Bashere and Taim, quite honestly I cant, so there it is. But I hardly think I need to know absolutely every tiny detail about it. I dont know how Moridin knows about the thing between Bashere and Taim, quite honestly I dont think thats importantt to the case, seeing as the fact that Taim knowing OF Travelling apparantly doesnt mean anything either.

Taim tells Bashere something that isn't common knowledge in order to prove he is who he says he is. Now, we know how Taim knows of it, but how would Moridin? It's not the biggest question to answer, but any answer is wholly reliant on speculation. As is the entire theory.

 

I dont see how it proves anything though. RJ explains a motive for why Taim would go to Rand. But as I said, he also said it is the only safe place he can go. We can deduce that because of Taims Darkfriendness that there are in fact plenty of places he could go. It seems clear to me that the Shadow sent Taim. They didnt recruit him while he was AT the Black Tower, they had him before that. So Taim HAD a motive in finding a safe haven, but that wasnt his main reason.

 

Think about it. If Taim was Ishamael RJ would have had a lot of prepared answers to keep himself from revealing the truth and it would be so for any alter ego he was questioned about. His comment about Taim being put out to dry means nothing, Taims BODY has been through a lot but thats all regarding the body, not who is in it. The body stays in the condition it was in, its not like having a different soul put in it gives the thing a full recovery from physical exertion or whatever.

RJ only needs one prepared answer: RAFO. But how did the body get into that state? Well, due to the rigours of the flight to Caemlyn. Why didn't Moridin Travel? Or why didn't Taim Travel? For the latter, the answer is clear - he didn't know how. For the former, it's much harder to answer. But that's just one of the points that Taimidin supporters struggle to provide decent answers to. We don't have the full story on Taim, but him being Moridin fails to answer all his mysteries, and in fact creates new ones. RJ might not have given us the whole story of why Taim went to Camelyn, but unless you accuse him of lying there's really no way of getting around him having nowhere else to turn. Him being a Darkfriend on the run doesn't mean he can walk into the nearest Darkfriend embassy and get a passport and flight back to the Blight. He might be unable to get to Darkfriends who are willing and able to help him, so Rand really is his one chance to get Bashere off his back. It's possible to square Taim being a Darkfriend with RJ's statements. If it is possible to square him being Moridin with all the evidence, then please do so.

[Sharaman]

If somebody is using MoM to disguise himself as Taim why not go the whole hog and avoid giving Bashere the chance to wonder who this clean-shaven, tired looking middle-aged guy is? Travel to Caemlyn with a resplendent well-oiled beard, etc.

[herid]

If somebody is using MoM to disguise himself as Taim why not go the whole hog and avoid giving Bashere the chance to wonder who this clean-shaven, tired looking middle-aged guy is? Travel to Caemlyn with a resplendent well-oiled beard, etc.

I addressed that in my "taim is an impostor" post.

[Never]

then you'd think Moridin would be keeping a damn tight leash on him given that he's in such a powerful position.

 

2. LTT always had a really weird reaction when he saw Taim, way more so than any other character in the series, even other male channelers. It's been practically confirmed by BS that LT had some sort of soul-sensing/recognising capability (he used it in the EotW prologue) and his reaction to Taim always made it seem really like he knew him. Maybe he just recognised him as a DF, but he never reacted that way to other DFs; in fact he never recognised what they were at all. He used to go berserk whenever Taim appeared.

 

 

Sorry if this was mention, but I was reading through the thread and this got me thinking. I mean, Rand Sedai went right up to Weiramon and that chic and has as of such proven himself able to recognize Darkfriends. Lews Therin, being Rand, has always had this ability, but as the case is with a lot of other memories and abilities, this ability would only sometimes manifest itself, usually due to some external factor.

 

Well, just as the ability to tear open shields, this might be something that manifested itself at need, but the insanity of both Rand and Lews Therin kept him from recognizing it at the time.