Settale Anan

[Taishar Manetheren]

When suian and Lian were stilled and Nynaeve wanted to study them she made them put Moghedien's a'dam.

They felt her but they couldnt channel through her or make her feel anything.

 

When Mat brought the a'dam for Joline in the the Wandering woman basement Settale tried it with Joline and after 2 steps Joline fell on the ground with pain and agony until the a'dam was off.

 

What do you think it means?

[Minnea]

I can see at least two possible reasons why Siuan and Leane can use the a'dam at least a bit (but they never tried to move, right?), while Setalle can not at all:

 

1)

Setalle Anan has never been able to channel, thus never had any possibilty to use an a'dam.

 

2)

Siuan and Leane we know were stilled - someone(s) cut them off from the source. If Setalle Anan has been able to channel she most problably was burned out.

Maybe there's a difference... like stilling/gentling leaves the "bridge" intact save for a couple of "boards" that are removed to form a hole, while burning out means the whole bridge is gone.

That would also mean that while stilling/gentling is possible to Heal, being burned out is not.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Being burned out does not prevent you from being Healed. Damar healed the Sisters that Rand burned out at Dumai's Wells without any problem.

 

There is a 3rd possibility why Setalle Anan failed and it is psychological in nature. Setalle Anan failed because she didn't want to succeed.

 

Siuan and Leane were desperate. They had not come to grips with having been cut off yet. They had a very powerful desire for any contact with the power, even via proxy.

 

If Setalle is a burned out Aes Sedai (which is very likely, I just can't think of her old name) she has lived a full life without the Power. She came to grips with her situation and moved on a long time ago. She wouldn't still have that burning desire to touch the source. If anything, her greatest wish when trying on the a'dam was that she would fail. If she felt something she would risk going through the loss of Saidar all over.

[Cybertrolloc]

Dumai's Wells: the Aes Sedai were not burned out, but stilled.

 

We find out Setalle's story in KoD. Straightforwardly, unless she's lying and the hints from other parts are also lies and so on...

 

We haven't seen burned out attempted to be healed. Taim mentions burn outs at the BT, but we haven't seen healing tried.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I think the argument over if they were burned out or stilled has been going on almost as long as the one about who killed Asmodean.

 

At Dumai's Wells, the Aes Sedai were Burned Out and not Stilled. Stilling is the result of a deliberate attempt at Severing someone. For that to be deliberate, whatever provides the person's ability to touch the Source must be the target. Rand crushed the focal points of the Shield the Aes Sedai were holding with all of the strength those Sisters could put into it. Rand wasn't in any position to attack the Aes Sedai directly as he couldn't see the weaves being used to Shield him to try and track them back to their source, nor could he see the Aes Sedai themselves. The Severing was a result of a backlash of Saidar triggerring an overdose. That makes it being "burned out."

 

In the AoL they were actually considered the same thing. It was all seen as being "severed" and no distinction was made between accidental and deliberate.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Since we don't know how Setalle Anan was burned out, it is difficult to say what her situation is. It may be that there are degrees of being burned out or stilled, like there are degrees of other injuries. It's not like this has been studied much until recent events. Since stilling was not supposed to be able to be healed at all, who is to say the way it is healed from person to person or the degree of damage done from person to person is the same? One of the differences between Nynaeve and Flinn's method of Healing, and the old Aes Sedai method, is the complexity of the new weaves, and the unique way in which each one is woven.

[Luckers]

I suspect the reason joline fell over lies in the differences in the A'dam, as opposed to the differences in the women holding the bracelet. Elayne changed the a'dam so that Moghedian could walk around without a sul'dam linked to her because of the need for secrecy. The Seanchan a'dam on the other hand are designed specifically to forbid this. What happened to Joline is the same as what happens to a Damane linked to the wall. They are unable to move, and if the bracelet is touched or moved by a non-sul'dam the same thing happends, which is what happened to Joline.

 

As for why Satelle couldn't sense Joline... well, maybe she could. She didn't say anything, but she may have just attributed it to the a'dam, not realising she shouldn't have been able to sense anything if she couldn't control anything. Also it may have something to do with her having been burned out and not stilled.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

I remember (correct me if I'm wrong) that Rand crushed their channeling in fists of saidin. That seems like more of a deliberate attempt at stilling rather than an accidental burning out, although I suppose it could be interpreted either way. If Setalle Anan were burned out and not stilled, then perhaps there is a difference between the two which might explain all the rest. Perhaps being burned out completely shatters the link to the power to such a point that channeling is impossible, while stilling breaks the connection, but some things still filter through, like when Siuan wore the a'dam?

 

And I had always thought that Setalle Anan was that woman who used to study ter'angreal and got burned out, can't remember her name right now. The ages and years fit, Setalle isn't Edou Dari and we know Aes Sedai try and set up burned-out ex-aes sedai with new husbands. It just seems to fit, and I think I read it on the WOT encyclopedia somewhere a while back.

 

EDIT: The Aes Sedai who used to study Ter'angreal was Martine Janata, and encyclopedia-wot seems to take it as a definate that Setalle was her.

[Luckers]

Yes it is generally accepted that Setalle is Martine.

 

Rand crushing them in fists of spirit is different to the description we have from Nynaeve of stilling. Stilling is achieved by a razor sharp flow of spirit that slices through the connection. In fact when Nynaeve's flow is blunted, it stops her from stilling Moghedian.

[Guest cwestervelt]

What confuses the issue is Rand thinking about having "stilled" them. The term implies that he intended to destroy their ability to channel which can then be argued as saying they were "Stilled" and not "Burned Out". The description shows the ability being destroyed as a secondary effect of his complete destruction of their shield.

 

Doubled painfully inside the chest, Rand fumbled at the shield between him and the Source. Moaning floated across the Void, grim fury and burning fear slid along the edge of it; he was no longer altogether certain which was his and which Lews Therin's. Suddenly his breath froze. Six points, but one was hard now. Not soft; hard. And then a second. A third. Rasping laughter filled his ears; that was his, he realized after a moment. A fourth knot became hard. He waited, trying to stifle what sounded uncomfortably like deranged giggling. The last two points remained soft. Those muffled cackles died.

 

...

 

Quickly, almost frantically, he attacked the remaining knots in turn. A second went; the shield thinned. It was quicker now, quicker with each, as if he were learning the path through, though it was different each time. The third knot was gone. And a third soft point appeard; maybe the Aes Sedai did not know what he was doing, but they would not simply sit whil the shield grew less and less. Truly frantic, Rand hurled himself at the fourth knot. He had to unravel it before a fourth sister came into the shield; four might be able to hild it whatever he did. Almost weeping, he struggled through the complex windings, slipping between nothingness. Frenzied, he flexed, bursting the knot. The sheild remained, held by only three now. If he could move fast enough.

 

When he reached for saidin, the invisible barrier was still there, but it no longer seemed stone or brick. It gave as he pressed, bending under his pressure, bending, bending. Suddenly it tore apart before him like rotted cloth. The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly in fists of Spirit. Aside from that, he could only channel where he could see, and all he could see, dimly, was the inside of the chest, what he could glimpse of it with his head between his knees. Before he even finished with the fists of Spirit, he channeled Air. The chest exploded away from him with a loud boom.

The Lord of Chaos Chapter 55, "Dumai's Wells" pages 687 and 688 (harcover)

 

Rand crushed the three "soft" points, the remaining fragments of the Shield they had been weaving on him. He was through the Shield, but the Sister's were still trying to block him. That was the focus point of Aes Sedai's weaving, not their link to the Power. Their link to the Power was destroyed, but as a side effect of what he did.

[DragonSpawn]

I think the argument over if they were burned out or stilled has been going on almost as long as the one about who killed Asmodean.

 

 

Nothing absolutely, nothing will ever get as long as "who killed Asmodean threads", in my long,... very long time of being on these forums, I can proudly say that counting all the who killed asmodean threads together their combined pages exceed 250 easily. And back in the old days, one of the dang Asmodean threads knocked out DM for three days until the servers got rebooted....

 

Asmodean is a plague on this site, he just won't go away, even being a dead, minor character who had maybe 2 pages in total of quotes or words said.

[Kaznen]

What confuses the issue is Rand thinking about having "stilled" them. The term implies that he intended to destroy their ability to channel which can then be argued as saying they were "Stilled" and not "Burned Out". The description shows the ability being destroyed as a secondary effect of his complete destruction of their shield.

 

Doubled painfully inside the chest, Rand fumbled at the shield between him and the Source. Moaning floated across the Void, grim fury and burning fear slid along the edge of it; he was no longer altogether certain which was his and which Lews Therin's. Suddenly his breath froze. Six points, but one was hard now. Not soft; hard. And then a second. A third. Rasping laughter filled his ears; that was his, he realized after a moment. A fourth knot became hard. He waited, trying to stifle what sounded uncomfortably like deranged giggling. The last two points remained soft. Those muffled cackles died.

 

...

 

Quickly, almost frantically, he attacked the remaining knots in turn. A second went; the shield thinned. It was quicker now, quicker with each, as if he were learning the path through, though it was different each time. The third knot was gone. And a third soft point appeard; maybe the Aes Sedai did not know what he was doing, but they would not simply sit whil the shield grew less and less. Truly frantic, Rand hurled himself at the fourth knot. He had to unravel it before a fourth sister came into the shield; four might be able to hild it whatever he did. Almost weeping, he struggled through the complex windings, slipping between nothingness. Frenzied, he flexed, bursting the knot. The sheild remained, held by only three now. If he could move fast enough.

 

When he reached for saidin, the invisible barrier was still there, but it no longer seemed stone or brick. It gave as he pressed, bending under his pressure, bending, bending. Suddenly it tore apart before him like rotted cloth. The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly in fists of Spirit. Aside from that, he could only channel where he could see, and all he could see, dimly, was the inside of the chest, what he could glimpse of it with his head between his knees. Before he even finished with the fists of Spirit, he channeled Air. The chest exploded away from him with a loud boom.

The Lord of Chaos Chapter 55, "Dumai's Wells" pages 687 and 688 (harcover)

 

Rand crushed the three "soft" points, the remaining fragments of the Shield they had been weaving on him. He was through the Shield, but the Sister's were still trying to block him. That was the focus point of Aes Sedai's weaving, not their link to the Power. Their link to the Power was destroyed, but as a side effect of what he did.

 

Your own post proved he stilled them.

 

The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly in fists of Spirit.

 

He already had the power, the shield was broken. Three AS are not enough to overpower him. After gained the OP he could have broken out and unleashed his "Randrage" but he wanted the AS, any AS, to pay and pay dear. The adverb is "ruthlessly", if it wasn't intentional that strong a word would have been left out or replaced by something like "uncaringly"

[drakhon]

The point is that the focus of Rand's attack was the weaves being used on him, not the weavers' links to the Source. Stilling is an intentional attack on that link while Burning Out is a side effect of some other action such as improper use or malfunction of a ter'angreal.

 

Rand refers to it as Stilling because he likely doesn't really know how what happened happened and may not have been exposed to the term Burned Out anyway.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Thank you drakhon.

 

The point people need to pay attention is that Rand attacked weaves of the Power that emanated from the Sister's who had been holding him. Sure, he was through the Shield, but they were still trying to weave it.

 

Luckers mentioned the Nynaeve/Moghedien battle, and that shows a good example.

 

Nynaeve was attempting to drive a permanent wedge through Moghediens connection to the source. Moghedien was doing the same thing. They were not targetting the Shields the other created and was trying to put in place. Rand didn't target the Aes Sedai's connection, he targetted the shield they were trying to reestablish.

[algspkr]

I am not getting into the burned out/stilled debate. I just want to point out that we do not have a POV from Suian, Lianne or Sattelle. We see that Suain and Leanne felt Mogheadean's emotions, but were unable to make her feel anything. They also never attempted to walk with her. We do not have any infomation from Sattelle's experience with the a'dam other than she could not walk with someone on the other end who could channell.

[Luckers]

It wouldn't have mattered is Suine and Leane had tried to walk her, Elayne had changed the a'dam so that Moghedian could move around.

[algspkr]

It wouldn't have mattered is Suine and Leane had tried to walk her, Elayne had changed the a'dam so that Moghedian could move around.

There was a conversation between Elayne and Nynaeve. Elayne was not wearing the braclet, and Moghedian had an upset stomach because of it. Elayne did not care because she was angry with Moghedian.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Elayne wouldn't know about the upset stomach if she hadn't been wearing it when Moghedien got it.

 

You have the your cause and effect backwards. Elayne took the bracelet off because of the discomfort being transitted through it from Moghedien.

[Luckers]

My memory suggests that it was Elayne (or Egwene?) who had the upset stomach, resulting from the constant flow of fear through the bracelet.

 

In any case the effect was not caused by the removal of the bracelt. Moving without the bracelet causes Seanchan damanae uncontrollable pain and cramping to the point that after two steps.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Actually, the real reason Elayne took it off was because Birgitte had just beaten the crap out of Moghedien. Moghedien said something Birgitte didn't like and Birgitte thought she'd show how tough she was be beating up someone who wasn't in any position to defend herself. Elayne did nothing to stop Birgitte and didn't want to be reminded of that by the sensations coming through the link afterwards.

 

Birgitte may be a Hero, but the beating of Moghedien was not a shining example of her courage.

[Luckers]

From a purerly clinical point of view, they probably should have broken her.

[Taishar Manetheren]

I think its good that she got free, after all she did break Nynaeve block... in a way.

[Luckers]

That is quite true.

 

Also, since i forgot to say it, thanks for the reference cwestervelt.