how did Moiraine find out about Sammael and Bel'al?

[herid]

Man if you hate deus ex machina you must hate the series. The Pattern itself is just one gigantic deus ex machina.

I hope you are kidding. deus ex machina is a device used by writers which are outside the story by definition. what happens within the context of the story itself is a totally different matter. One of the things I like best about WoT is that the world there follows strict logical rules. It's like a giant puzzle that you can try to figure out. and I do hate when random illogical things happen there without explanation just because they are needed by the plot. Thankfully, there are remarkably few of those especially from book 4 onward.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Moiraine may have known about the physical appearance of various Forsaken. And as I recall neither Sammael nor Be'lal took care to alter their appearance. Sammael for example has that famous scar that she may have known about.

this was discussed earlier in the thread. yes, she may have known about Sammael's scar. But Bel'al has no distinguishing features. at the time there are many other male Forsaken still alive - how could she know for sure it was him? and she was sure. she didn't say that he is Bel'al. she flatly stated that he was.

 

Be'lal did have a distinguishing feature. He was a blademaster, the only one among the Forsaken as I recall. Now, I don't know whether he advertised that fact in his Highlord Samon personae, but seeing how much pride he had in his skills with a sword he may very well have. And Moiraine also said that he didn't care to guard his dreams and that many in Tear dreamed of him. And even if not age, size, hair and overall bodybuild may have been enough to identify him.

 

Edit:

Just look at it logically. Because Moiraine might have.

There were eight male Forsaken:

Aginor - dead

Balthamel - dead

Ishamael - seen over Falme

Sammael - already found in Illian

 

Already we're down to four

 

Asmodean - there's nothing martial about the man. Saw himself as an artist. That doesn't match Highlord Samon at all

Rahvin - tall, extremely handsome, black hair with grey on the temples, known womanizer. Again doesn't match Samon.

 

So we're down to two

 

Demandred - well, I got nothing which would make him easy to eliminate as a possibility.

Be'lal - blademaster

[herid]

Moiraine may have known about the physical appearance of various Forsaken. And as I recall neither Sammael nor Be'lal took care to alter their appearance. Sammael for example has that famous scar that she may have known about.

this was discussed earlier in the thread. yes, she may have known about Sammael's scar. But Bel'al has no distinguishing features. at the time there are many other male Forsaken still alive - how could she know for sure it was him? and she was sure. she didn't say that he is Bel'al. she flatly stated that he was.

 

Be'lal did have a distinguishing feature. He was a blademaster, the only one among the Forsaken as I recall. Now, I don't know whether he advertised that fact in his Highlord Samon personae, but seeing how much pride he had in his skills with a sword he may very well have. And Moiraine also said that he didn't care to guard his dreams and that many in Tear dreamed of him. And even if not age, size, hair and overall bodybuild may have been enough to identify him.

 

Edit:

Just look at it logically. Because Moiraine might have.

There were eight male Forsaken:

Aginor - dead

Balthamel - dead

Ishamael - seen over Falme

Sammael - already found in Illian

 

Already we're down to four

 

Asmodean - there's nothing martial about the man. Saw himself as an artist. That doesn't match Highlord Samon at all

Rahvin - tall, extremely handsome, black hair with grey on the temples, known womanizer. Again doesn't match Samon.

 

So we're down to two

 

Demandred - well, I got nothing which would make him easy to eliminate as a possibility.

Be'lal - blademaster

I addressed some of it earlier but let's do it again. you do list a lot of good circumstantial evidence. But we have to assume a LOT to believe that Moiraine could have used all of it. First, what we know as readers is not the same as what she knows. we are told several times that very little is known of Forsaken and of Bel'al in particular. When Moiraine asks Loial about Bel'al he knows pretty much zip. and he is a supposed to be a very well read Ogier.

Also, I believe Sammael was also a blademaster (it's mentioned in BWB). Demandred is a great field general so he might have been one as well. All other great generals in WoT (Bryn, Bashere, Ituralde, Turan) are blademasters. It's also hardly likely that in their current positions either Bel'al or Sammael would advertise their skills with swords. that's not what they use to gain their positions.

Lastly, on the subject of physical appearance. Bel'al is older and white haired. But that would not exclude anybody else. Moiraine saw what being sealed in the Bore did to Aginor and Balthmel. For all she knows it did the same to some of the others.

 

All in all, I don't see enough here to make a positive id based on such circumstantial evidence.

[plague fiend]

Man if you hate deus ex machina you must hate the series. The Pattern itself is just one gigantic deus ex machina.

I hope you are kidding. deus ex machina is a device used by writers which are outside the story by definition. what happens within the context of the story itself is a totally different matter. One of the things I like best about WoT is that the world there follows strict logical rules. It's like a giant puzzle that you can try to figure out. and I do hate when random illogical things happen there without explanation just because they are needed by the plot. Thankfully, there are remarkably few of those especially from book 4 onward.

The only thing I can think of, off the top of my head, that would be considered "Deus Ex Machina", would be the Taveren effect(some might say there is a pattern there, which is arguable). "Deus Ex Machina", for example: War of the Worlds, when the aliens come to take over, destroying every defense we have and we can't do anything about it. Then, "The Hand of God" come into play and they all die of a virus.

[Bluedust9]

I would say Pattern Level Events are pretty big deus ex machina as well. The Pattern needed Logain and Taim to stop being false Dragons so it projected them in the sky, just one example.

 

Edit: I'm not complaining.

[Terez]

ah, now that's a good argument. Yes, that's what I think too. In addition we know that whatever she did it brought Sammael's attention to her in Illian and Bel'al's in Tear. so she might have tried, say, eavesdropping using the OP near Sammael.

What I don't like is that none of this is explained in sufficient detail and it really looks like deus ex machina (which I hate) as the result. There are several similar examples in the early books although most not as egregious as this one.

Why go into deus ex machina territory when you've already hit on a logical explanation? I have always thought it must be eavesdropping; I don't see why that doesn't explain it completely and satisfactorily.

[Nooska]

"Deus Ex Machina", for example: War of the Worlds, when the aliens come to take over, destroying every defense we have and we can't do anything about it. Then, "The Hand of God" come into play and they all die of a virus.

Thats not DEM, thats Truth in Fiction - the foreign virus being deadly has happened several times in history with reckless exploration.

 

(And its not "Hand of God" but "God from (a) machine" - Hand of god would be "Deii Manua" or something to that effect.)

[Terez]

The technical literary definition of deus ex machina these days is when something shows up to save the day - usually in the end - that was not in any way foreshadowed or developed in the story beforehand. Like, if Rand died and the Creator stepped in to bring him back to life, that would be deus ex machina. If he gets ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod, it is not, because that was heavily foreshadowed in the earlier books. In the same way, Moiraine eavesdropping on Sammael and Be'lal is not deus ex machina because we already knew that Moiraine knew how to eavesdrop. That detail was introduced in book one.

[Cybertrolloc]

Can't discount Ishamael, Mo doesn't know he's Ba'alzamon yet, as well as not being privy to many things on that list b3arz3rg3r.

 

Surveillance doesn't cover it, at least twice. Rahvin has his lickspittles calling him Gaebril for example, and a Forsaken just dropping in on another Forsaken would be frowned upon per Rahvin in FoH prologue (not many 3rd agers have the seating chart).

 

PS. It'd be She Read the Script, not Deus Ex Machina :) Also search function :)

[mb]

One of Moiraine's strengths or "Talents" was using the Power to spy. She used her blue stone as a focus for this very thing.

There is nothing in the books to support this notion. Moiraine herself said straight out that the stone is simply to help her concentrate. And she could not lie so this is all it is.

I think she said that about her staff, not her stone.

Lord of Chaos shows the stone trick for eavesdropping (one of Egwene's POVs). Siuan's discussion with Moiraine (Great Hunt) mentions it. Moiraine tells about it in her last Eye of World POV. Verin's thoughts in Path of Daggers Prologue mentions novices using the One Power to eavesdrop. Moghedien taught Elayne & Nynaeve another method; forgot exact scene. And I recall various scenes implying some One Power method to eavesdrop; forgot exact scenes.

[Terez]

One of Moiraine's strengths or "Talents" was using the Power to spy. She used her blue stone as a focus for this very thing.

There is nothing in the books to support this notion. Moiraine herself said straight out that the stone is simply to help her concentrate. And she could not lie so this is all it is.

I think she said that about her staff, not her stone.

Fires of Heaven shows the stone trick for eavesdropping. Siuan's discussion with Moiraine (Great Hunt) mentions it. Moiraine tells about it in her last Eye of World POV. Verin's thoughts in Path of Daggers Prologue mentions novices using the One Power to eavesdrop. Moghedien taught Elayne & Nynaeve another method; forgot exact scene. And I recall various scenes implying some One Power method to eavesdrop; forgot exact scenes.

The stone is also just a tool for concentration:

 

Egwene's eyes widened as she looked at the stone, and she wet her lips repeatedly. "Is ... does that have the Power?"

 

"Of course not," Moiraine snapped. "Things do not have the Power, child. Even an angreal is only a tool. This is just a pretty blue stone. But it can give off light. Here."

 

As for the trick, Galina mentions it in LOC when Egwene spies on her (she thought it was Moiraine, mostly because she wanted to believe she could get her hands on Moiraine, but her 'evidence' was Moiraine's reputed eavesdropping trick), but it's not portrayed as a Talent - just a weave that Moiraine didn't share with anyone else. Like so:

 

There was so much subterfuge here in Salidar. Not just Birgitte, and Moghedien. One of the Oaths kept an Aes Sedai from lying, but what was not spoken of did not have to be lied over. Moiraine had known how to weave a cloak of invisibility, maybe the same one they learned from Moghedien; Nynaeve had seen Moiraine do it once, before Nynaeve knew anything of the Power. No one else in Salidar had known, though. Or admitted to it, anyway. Birgitte had confirmed what Elayne had begun to suspect. Most Aes Sedai, maybe all, kept back at least part of what they learned; most had their own secret tricks. Those might become common knowledge taught to novices or Accepted, if enough Aes Sedai learned them – or they might die with the Aes Sedai. Two or three times she thought she had seen a glimmer in someone’s eyes when she demonstrated something. Carenna had leaped onto the eavesdropping trick with suspicious quickness. But it was hardly the sort of accusation an Accepted could make against Aes Sedai.

[plague fiend]

"Deus Ex Machina", for example: War of the Worlds, when the aliens come to take over, destroying every defense we have and we can't do anything about it. Then, "The Hand of God" come into play and they all die of a virus.

Thats not DEM, thats Truth in Fiction - the foreign virus being deadly has happened several times in history with reckless exploration.

 

(And its not "Hand of God" but "God from (a) machine" - Hand of god would be "Deii Manua" or something to that effect.)

In some ancient Greek drama, an apparently insoluble crisis was solved by the intervention of a god, often brought on stage by an elaborate piece of equipment. This "god from the machine" was literally a deus ex machina. It's not god from (a) machine. Furthermore, it is not truth in fiction. I believe that Terez stated a close definition of the meaning. We got off the point of the post. I thought the initial post I responded to required it. I knew of Moiraine's ability to eve's drop, but it seemed to be far fetched, but who knows.

[herid]

ah, now that's a good argument. Yes, that's what I think too. In addition we know that whatever she did it brought Sammael's attention to her in Illian and Bel'al's in Tear. so she might have tried, say, eavesdropping using the OP near Sammael.

What I don't like is that none of this is explained in sufficient detail and it really looks like deus ex machina (which I hate) as the result. There are several similar examples in the early books although most not as egregious as this one.

Why go into deus ex machina territory when you've already hit on a logical explanation? I have always thought it must be eavesdropping; I don't see why that doesn't explain it completely and satisfactorily.

well, I don't know. This might be it but it's still a bit of a stretch IMO. Both Sammael and Bel'al (or someone around them) would have to be extremely obliging and use their real names in presumably very short time that Moiraine had to eavesdrop on them. Even Mat was not that lucky with Rahvin and he is the luckiest guy around. Also, I doubt she could have gotten into the Stone and eavesdropping from outside would have been quite difficult as the Stone is huge and she would have no idea where exactly Bel'al was. In any case I would have liked this issue explained better inside the story.

[plague fiend]

Perhaps Moiraine met a contact from the Tower that told her they were checking out some info. obtained from questioning a darkfriend/'s who new Sammael an Be'al location.

The reason I tend to stay away from the Moiraine using her "spying" ability is that she had Rand and group in-tow. I couldn't see her jeopardizing their safety, and the fate of the world, by attracting the notice of a Forsaken/Forsaken's. She suspected Rand could channel and the rest of the group added to her suspicion that she had found what she had been looking for. While it's true that we didn't know the full range of her spying ability, we can assume that she didn't know the powers of the Forsaken. It seems like too big a risk to take at that point in time.

[Threepy]

Moiraine no doubt wasn't sure. But when you are tasked with guiding the Dragon Reborn it makes a lot more sense to at least act certain about what you are saying because it commands more respect. Random people rising to power fast would be suspicious. Then it's just the case of using information given (by any limited knowledge she has on the Forsaken or the eyes and ears of the Blue Ajah) to narrow down the list of possible Forsaken it could be.

 

Besides, I don't think an explanation is necessary. It was early on in the series, and at that point Moiraine was quite mysterious. Just put it down to Blue Ajah secrets or eavesdropping and be done with it. I can see why it might be frustrating but with so much to left to explain in the series and only one book to go I doubt this is going to end up being the biggest mystery of the lot.

[Terez]

She couldn't say straight out 'Sammael rules in Illian' if she was not sure.

[Tokkenn]

I'll say it again and I think it really is a simle explanation. Moiraine had a talent for using the power to 'listen in'; if not a talent, then an ability she learned herself. It is possible that she made contact with eyes and ears and learned enough to know that something was wrong with the leader in Illian (and later Tear), then she used the Power to 'listen in' at the royal palace. This last step would explain how she attracted Sammael's attention enough that he would let loose the hounds, so to speak. As for any knowledge she had regarding the various forsaken, I'm sure she has enough to enable the information given to her by the eyes and ears to at least peak her suspicions enough to investigate.

But again, Moiraine is one of the (if not the most) mysterious characters in the series. Also at this stage in the series not much has been revealed to the reader regarding what is and what is not possible with the One Power. It makes sense, therefore, on two fronts to be ambiguous about how Moiraine discovers the identities of the forsaken.

[Sharaman]

Sammael isn't so much of a problem - the scar may have been well-known and her eyes and ears could tell her "Lord Brend" had this horrible scar.

Be'lal is the real question-mark. Moi knew zilch about Be'lal and yet, she IDs him.

[Alternate34]

I don't think it is that hard to conceive of Moiraine figuring out that Sammael and Be'lal were ruling.

 

(1) She, unlike almost everyone else, knows that the Forsaken are on the loose.

(2) She knew this well before discovering that Sammael and Be'lal ruled.

(3) She had a lot of time to research the Forsaken. She did that.

(4) She had access to an extensive spy network.

(5) She was skilled at eavesdropping.

(6) She knew that the people who had just come to power were probably Forsaken or proxies. The reason she knew this is that she has seen recently freed Forsaken. Additionally, she can know that these "new lords" have little history according to her eyes and ears. The immediate rise to power of "new lords" would not be too suspicious to anyone not knowing the Forsaken are loose, but to Moiraine, that would indicate individuals with immense aptitude and new intentions.

(7) At that point, she only has to deduce which Forsaken is which.

 

The argument that Loial is well read for an Ogier is not very persuasive. Moiraine was focused on researching Dragon prophecies and the Forsaken. Loial read a wide spread of other books. Moiraine wants all info. That she asked Loial doesn't mean she has more. It would have been nice for Moiraine to explain a bit on how she deduced it, but that she deduced it isn't too crazy. She was looking for it when no one else was.

[Taura-Tierno]

Moiraine must've been positive about Be'lal, from the manner she says it. It's as clear as it gets. Not so clear about Sammael if you look at the wording, but she seems certain there, at least.

 

The Forsaken are loose, and one of them rules in Illian. /../ Unless you want to make a closer acquaintance with Sammael.

 

"Be quiet," Moiraine told her sharply. "One of the Forsaken is in Tear. The High Lord Samin is Be'lal."

 

As for Moiraine eavesdropping, or doing something else, that attracted Sammael's attention in Illian, that's not certain at all. She says this:

 

Any moment Lord Brend may learn that one of his Darkhounds is dead. You can be sure he will know that means a Warder, and he will come looking for the Gaidin's Aes Sedai."

 

That could, of course, be Moiraine hiding the fact that she did something and just dumping the blame on Lan, but it's certainly possible that what she did to find out about Sammael did nothing to alarm him, and that it really was the death of the Darkhound that caused everything to happen.

 

I don't buy that Moiraine could've identified them from physical appearance. As has been mentioned, any of the Forsaken could have aged in the Bore, as far as she knows. And I doubt either Sammael or Be'lal went around broadcasting their true identities to every darkfriend Moiraine could've interrogated. But even if they did, that would still leave the question of how Moiraine managed to so conventiently find a darkfriend to interrogate, seeing how the darkfriends are generally quite secretive.

[mb]

Nieda might have given Moiraine some clues about him.

Moiraine might have like pieced together the rest on her way back to the inn.

[Luckers]

I have no real problem with Moiraine identifying the Forsaken by physical description--she spent the better part of her life preparing for Tarmon Gai'don, which would easily include studying anything she could find on the Forsaken, and her comment to the effect of not knowing anything about Be'lal was specifically in the context of his nature.

 

After all, for someone as politically saavy as Moiraine identifying the odd High Lord wouldn't be all that dificult--Thom picks up immediately on the fact that the High Lord Sammon came out of no where, with no known history as a Lord of the Land, and likely if he knew the Forsaken were free he'd have made the connection himself.

 

From there... white haired random dude with no history who rose suddenly to inexplicable influence, and, lets not forget, betrays himself with a penchant for not warding his dreams, and thus affecting the dreams around him. No, identifying the Forsaken is not diffcult in that sense.

[Kidicaris]

I'll say it again and I think it really is a simle explanation. Moiraine had a talent for using the power to 'listen in'; if not a talent, then an ability she learned herself. It is possible that she made contact with eyes and ears and learned enough to know that something was wrong with the leader in Illian (and later Tear), then she used the Power to 'listen in' at the royal palace. This last step would explain how she attracted Sammael's attention enough that he would let loose the hounds, so to speak. As for any knowledge she had regarding the various forsaken, I'm sure she has enough to enable the information given to her by the eyes and ears to at least peak her suspicions enough to investigate.

But again, Moiraine is one of the (if not the most) mysterious characters in the series. Also at this stage in the series not much has been revealed to the reader regarding what is and what is not possible with the One Power. It makes sense, therefore, on two fronts to be ambiguous about how Moiraine discovers the identities of the forsaken.

 

This best expresses my opinion too, especially the last part. Mostly I just give it to RJ though, he just threw some names down for us readers to have and didn't think to go into detail. It was early on and idk if he had been green lit for anything more than a trilogy yet, so he had to move things along.

[Taura-Tierno]

From there... white haired random dude with no history who rose suddenly to inexplicable influence, and, lets not forget, betrays himself with a penchant for not warding his dreams, and thus affecting the dreams around him. No, identifying the Forsaken is not diffcult in that sense.

 

The problem is that any of the Forsaken could've been white-haired and old, from being locked up in the Bore.

[GYLD]

From there... white haired random dude with no history who rose suddenly to inexplicable influence, and, lets not forget, betrays himself with a penchant for not warding his dreams, and thus affecting the dreams around him. No, identifying the Forsaken is not diffcult in that sense.

 

The problem is that any of the Forsaken could've been white-haired and old, from being locked up in the Bore.

 

Moiraine might have had reason to believe that, if Aginor had not specifically told Moiraine that he and Balathamel were exceptions.

 

"The seals weaken, Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, and soon the rest of us will come. I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and the world will be ours once more."

 

That's from page 748 of the US paperback of Eye of the World.

 

That along with her identification of Sammael in Illian, assuming Sammael's distinctive physical traits played a part in said identification, should give her plenty of reason to believe the majority of the Forsaken have not visibly aged.