Seanchan prophesies are right

[Terez]

I left out the rest of your post because it was irrelevant. No one asked how old Essanik was - you decided to volunteer that info on your own. Most people don't try to read that much into the wording of signing reports because they are 1) on the spot, with no time for thinking/looking stuff up, and 2) generally paraphrased.

 

First off, all I did was state the info that we have been given about the Essanik Cycle. If you have an issue with that info, then take it up with BS for giving it, not me for repeating it.

You didn't simply repeat it; you extrapolated information from it unnecessarily.

 

Second, the rest of my post was not irrelevant as it gave a pretty strong reason why the Essanik Cycle prolly does not pre-date the consolidation of Seanchan.

Not really.

 

Of course, there is one person in Randland who might well know what the original, uncorrupted Prophecies really were - Rand Sedai.

I don't see why he would know one way or the other. None of the prophecies were given until after he had died. Mat, on the other hand, might well have a clue.

 

Wasn't the "doom yet to come" the Corenne? The return as an invasion force?

Yeah, presumably, and the division that theoretically is supposed to prevent Rand's success at Shayol Ghul.

[Finnssss22]

You didn't simply repeat it; you extrapolated information from it unnecessarily.

 

If you mean by stating the blatantly obvious conclusion from the info, then yes, I did that lol.

Once again, until BS says it actually was an oversight, it means the Essanik Cycle is only about 1100 years old

 

Not really.

 

Yes really and again just because you don't agree with it, that doesn't make it irrelevant.

The politics, low level of education and almost at constant war state of Seanchan before the Consolidation are more than valid reasons why a collected works of prophecy would be unlikely.

If you want to debate this point then do so but calling it irrelevant aint gonna fly.

[Terez]

You didn't simply repeat it; you extrapolated information from it unnecessarily.

 

If you mean by stating the blatantly obvious conclusion from the info, then yes, I did that lol.

Once again, until BS says it actually was an oversight, it means the Essanik Cycle is only about 1100 years old

No, it doesn't. You can believe it if you like, though.

 

Not really.

 

Yes really and again just because you don't agree with it, that doesn't make it irrelevant.

The politics, low level of education and almost at constant war state of Seanchan before the Consolidation are more than valid reasons why a collected works of prophecy would be unlikely.

If you want to debate this point then do so but calling it irrelevant aint gonna fly.

It was not only irrelevant but also inaccurate.

[Finnssss22]

 

No, it doesn't. You can believe it if you like, though.

 

See here's your problem. You're confusing the Seanchan Karaethon Cycle that was already present there before Hawkwing's armies arrived (which differed from the one they brought from Randland) with the Essanik Cycle.

What I believe from the info we have is that The Essanik Cycle is a new work, separate from the Karaethon Cycle, a collection of just damane foretellings.

 

A damane started having foretellings one day, someone thought hey we better write this down and we'll call it the Essanik Cycle.

 

It was not only irrelevant but also inaccurate.

 

By all means then explain how.

[Terez]

No, it doesn't. You can believe it if you like, though.

 

See here's your problem. You're confusing the Seanchan Karaethon Cycle that was already present there before Hawkwing's armies arrived (which differed from the one they brought from Randland) with the Essanik Cycle.

You just keep on digging that hole deeper, don't you?

 

Perhaps you could provide some evidence that there was a low level of education before Luthair's Consolidation. Also, perhaps you could explain why they were able to maintain the KC, but not the Essanik prophecies.

[b3arz3rg3r]

No, it doesn't. You can believe it if you like, though.

 

See here's your problem. You're confusing the Seanchan Karaethon Cycle that was already present there before Hawkwing's armies arrived (which differed from the one they brought from Randland) with the Essanik Cycle.

You just keep on digging that hole deeper, don't you?

 

Perhaps you could provide some evidence that there was a low level of education before Luthair's Consolidation. Also, perhaps you could explain why they were able to maintain the KC, but not the Essanik prophecies.

 

My angle wouldn't be a low level of education, of which there is no evidence AFAIK, but something far more obvious. Why would Luthair and his descendants put any stock in the ramblings of marath'damane? They think only when properly leashed can a channeler be trusted, so Luthair's descendants would have no reason to keep the words and writings of marath'damane. The KC is different since it was already 2,000 years old by the time Hawkwing was born. Of course it's hypocrisy of the finest order, but that sort of hypocrisy is essential to the Seanchan system.

[Finnssss22]

 

You just keep on digging that hole deeper, don't you?

 

How about offering up some actual debate for a change instead of simply calling everything you don't agree with irrelevant or making [Removed] statements like this one.

If you don't think my opinion and theory is right about the differences between the Cycles then freakin explain why. Stop answering so ignorantly please.

 

 

Perhaps you could provide some evidence that there was a low level of education before Luthair's Consolidation. Also, perhaps you could explain why they were able to maintain the KC, but not the Essanik prophecies.

 

Seanchan was a complete mess of shifting Nations often ruled by marath'damane using the One Power whose constant scheming against each other kept most of the continent at War with each other.

As far as education level goes, dictatorships highly frown on the education of their people as it tends to make them harder to control. This is supported by the details we get on Karede's servant Ajimbura in CoT as to what most of the people of the continent were like when Hawkwing's armies arrived.

 

I already stated that I do not believe there was such a thing as the Essanik Cycle when Hawkwing's armies arrived so explaining why it wasn't maintained is kind of simple as it didn't even exist yet heh.

[Terez]

My angle wouldn't be a low level of education, of which there is no evidence AFAIK, but something far more obvious. Why would Luthair and his descendants put any stock in the ramblings of marath'damane?

Why would it be any different from one who is collared? And I don't buy the 'KC is different' argument.

 

You just keep on digging that hole deeper, don't you?

 

How about offering up some actual debate for a change instead of simply calling everything you don't agree with irrelevant or making silly statements like this one.

How about you read the page I linked way back? [Removed]

 

Seanchan was a complete mess of shifting Nations often ruled by marath'damane using the One Power whose constant scheming against each other kept most of the continent at War with each other.

Yes, we know that. [Removed]

[Mandro]

I keep looking for it, but I saw something about "a domination chair." I was thinking that the crystal throne might be a domination chair. I've always thought that the bow before the crystal throne thing wouldn't be in supplication but in agony (if true) He might bow to a ruler, but he won't kneel, he will not surrender to any ruler, he can't.

 

As for the army's of hawkwing, I forget the timeline, but alivia's ridiculous age kinda insinuates that she was born within a couple generations of the consolidation, so she has to have a whole crapload more information than we know at the moment. That is one of the things that has bugged me most about her, and how she is used.

[b3arz3rg3r]

My angle wouldn't be a low level of education, of which there is no evidence AFAIK, but something far more obvious. Why would Luthair and his descendants put any stock in the ramblings of marath'damane?

Why would it be any different from one who is collared? And I don't buy the 'KC is different' argument.

 

Ask the seanchan. Just look at how Tuon acts with damane and with Aes Sedai. She doesn't believe anything Aes Sedai tell her and yet she believes in damane fortune telling completely. The same logic should apply to prophecies made by marath'damane and by damane. All their stories of how the marath'damane were full of deceit and so on before they collared them would make no sense if they believed in the prophecies made by those same marath'damane.

 

Well, the KC is different as far as the Seanchan are concerned, probably because Hawkwing himself never disputed it. And even more so if their version somehow got altered so it foretold them controlling the DR. Again the KC was 2,000 years old something they took with them from Randland there was no reason for them to question it.

[Finnssss22]

How about you read the page I linked way back? [Removed]

 

I read the linked article. First off it's YOUR article, written by YOU, with YOUR opinions.

NO WHERE is that article is there even the slightest mention of the Essanik Cycle existing before Hawkwing's armies landed in Seanchan.

Show me your source, actual evidence that says it did exist before.

I see only two possibilities, either it's a completely different thing and is ONLY the foretellings of the damane since the consolidation or it's the different version of the KC found in Seanchan when the armies landed, name changed to the Essanik Cycle and added to by the damane.

I see no evidence or source saying that both the KC and the Essanik Cycle existed separately before the consolidation.

 

Here's really good article from the The Thirteenth Depository that explains it better than I can here.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/prohecies-of-dragon.html#essanik about 3/4's of the way down the page.

 

Yes, we know that. [Removed]

 

Nice job cutting my post off again there, yeah, what Ajimbura and his people are like would give us no indication of what the native people of Seanchan were like before Hawkwing's armies came. Just my imagination, yep

[SuperFade]

I thought it was pretty obvious that the Essanik Cycle was given by a Damane in Seanchan, and that it was separate from the Karaethon Cycle. Terez, your argument seems a bit flimsy and based on your own opinions and semantics, and being rude to people who disagree with you and refusing to explain your arguments in greater detail is not helping your case.

[erikheidecker]

I believe that both sets of prophecies are corrupt. First let us not forget that the Karaetheon Cycle was not exclusive to Randland. It was made during the beginning times of the Breaking. Thus original copies were probably made and placed in various regions in order to ensure wide spread knowledge of the prophecies. Now any copies that may have been in existence in Seanchan would have only been altered through translation/mistranslation prior to Luthair's arrival.

Now, let us discuss Ishamael's involvement in the corruption of the Cycle. I believe that it would have been more fruitful for him to alter Randland versions than to alter Seanchan versions. Not to say that he didn't do that as well. Let us not forget that it was he who incited Artur to send his son across the ocean (with a copy of the KC which would have already been corrupted by Ishy.) So after Luthair and his descendants consolidated the Empire, the Imperical version of the KC would be put in place, supplanting all previous versions. Presumably, the Empire's version of the KC would have already been an Ishy tampered version, and I believe it's plausible to say that they might have placed some political additions of their own.

As far as corrupting the Randland versions of the KC, I believe that we are overlooking a state of times. Prior to the Trolloc Wars there were no Three Oaths. It would have been a far easier time for BA to maneuver within the Tower. And I am presuming that even then Aes Sedai were concerned politically of their outward appearance to the world so the 13th Depository most assuredly existed. To alter, even slightly, a version of the text would take no more than two or three BA Sisters who have been placed in that faculty. Add a few fires in the early days when books were not as distributed, modestly speaking, as they are in modern Randland, and poof you can replace anything. And even in modern Randland books are not hugely available, however, back that up 2000 years and what was book distribution then? Three copies of a single book (one for the 13th, one for the main library in the White Tower, and one for some great nation of the world whose scholars would then transcribe one or two copies?). A few translations and interpretations by various scholars and you can alter almost anything [Removed].

But as far as why alter the Randland KC? Because it would be simple to omit something about the Crystal Throne. No one knows what it is. And when an invading force, which Ishy created, invades and tells the Dragon he must kneel before it for the KC to be fulfilled, and all the Randlanders look to their Ishy altered KC versions and then call bullshit on the invaders, where there might have been resolution of prophecy, Ishy has now created opposition. And only in the Seanchan prophecies have I heard mention of the Wolf King taking the Hammer or the Fox make the Ravens fly (those I'm not sure if these were KC of EC . . . I know they were quoted, just not sure if the source was named).

Once again I must state that every Empire ever has altered things for political objectives. I don't deny that the Empire would have altered their KC to suit their needs, but I think that Ishy would have spent more time altering the version in the land where the Dragon would be born.

[erikheidecker]

And a better question I have is why didn't the Aes Sedai place an original copy within the Eye of the World along with the Horn of Valere?

[Terez]

How about you read the page I linked way back? [Removed]

 

I read the linked article. First off it's YOUR article, written by YOU, with YOUR opinions.

What does that have to do with your [Removed] statement that I was confusing the Essanik and KC?

 

 

 

Nice job cutting my post off again there, yeah, what Ajimbura and his people are like would give us no indication of what the native people of Seanchan were like before Hawkwing's armies came. Just my imagination, yep

You think that Ajimbura's tribe is evidence that everyone in Seanchan was like that before the Consolidation? [Removed]

[Finnssss22]

 

What does that have to do with your dumbass statement that I was confusing the Essanik and KC?

 

Just show your source and evidence that they both existed before the invasion and we can all move on, hopefully without the uncalled for and ridiculous insults and name calling.

 

 

 

You think that Ajimbura's tribe is evidence that everyone in Seanchan was like that before the Consolidation? [Remove]

 

Better than your non existent evidence that says otherwise

Weren't you just complaining about personal attacks in a recent thread? I haven't attacked you personally even once.

I have simply asked for your source and evidence to back your theory and instead you reply with name calling.

[FarShainMael]

Of course, there is one person in Randland who might well know what the original, uncorrupted Prophecies really were - Rand Sedai.

I don't see why he would know one way or the other. None of the prophecies were given until after he had died. Mat, on the other hand, might well have a clue.

 

I was referring to the fact that Rand now has memories of the Old Tongue, and is able to read the originals. (So could Mat, of course.) Sorry, should have clarified that.

[Terez]

Of course, there is one person in Randland who might well know what the original, uncorrupted Prophecies really were - Rand Sedai.

I don't see why he would know one way or the other. None of the prophecies were given until after he had died. Mat, on the other hand, might well have a clue.

 

I was referring to the fact that Rand now has memories of the Old Tongue, and is able to read the originals. (So could Mat, of course.) Sorry, should have clarified that.

Well, that's assuming that the 'originals' he has are uncorrupted. If the prophecies were successfully corrupted, then I doubt there are any real originals floating around.

[yoniy0]

In case it's not clear from my editorial work above, I expect this back and forth between @Terez and @Finnssss to stop now (and I mean now).

 

Further, while we enjoy differences of opinion on DM, we will not tolerate rudeness or downright cursing. The former will earn you a strict warning (which I've given to both of you already the last couple of days), while the latter is grounds for a ban.

[Terez]

Cursing is off-limits? Really?

[yoniy0]

When directed at other DM members.

You can have your way with Gawyn if you like. But every time I see someone going to town on his sister I regret not having the ability to ban people on my own.

[Terez]

Can't you make being dumb a bannable offense?

 

PS - Elayne has been presented as the stereotypical dumb blonde in some ways since the beginning of the series, but it was much more subtle before she got pregnant, at which time it became almost unbearable.

[Mandro]

And a better question I have is why didn't the Aes Sedai place an original copy within the Eye of the World along with the Horn of Valere?

 

Pretty sure that the prophesies are compendiums, not single authored texts, all of them written during or after the breaking.

[herid]

I believe that both sets of prophecies are corrupt. First let us not forget that the Karaetheon Cycle was not exclusive to Randland. It was made during the beginning times of the Breaking. Thus original copies were probably made and placed in various regions in order to ensure wide spread knowledge of the prophecies. Now any copies that may have been in existence in Seanchan would have only been altered through translation/mistranslation prior to Luthair's arrival.

I don't think so. Traveling was lost during the breaking and people were quite busy just trying to survive. Remember the scenes from Rand's visions in Rhuidean? spreading the prophecies around would not be anyone's high priority. especially since nobody was tasked with spreading them around before the White Tower was created. Also, it took quite some time for them to be collected together. I would think that by that time the Breaking was over and Traveling was lost. I think it's more reasonable to assume that Luthiar brought them over to the Seanchan once he arrived. There were later additions coming from foretellings that damane made. Whatever altering of the Seanchan version of the prophecies happened it would have to be done after that.

Now, let us discuss Ishamael's involvement in the corruption of the Cycle. I believe that it would have been more fruitful for him to alter Randland versions than to alter Seanchan versions. Not to say that he didn't do that as well. Let us not forget that it was he who incited Artur to send his son across the ocean (with a copy of the KC which would have already been corrupted by Ishy.) So after Luthair and his descendants consolidated the Empire, the Imperical version of the KC would be put in place, supplanting all previous versions. Presumably, the Empire's version of the KC would have already been an Ishy tampered version, and I believe it's plausible to say that they might have placed some political additions of their own.

As far as corrupting the Randland versions of the KC, I believe that we are overlooking a state of times. Prior to the Trolloc Wars there were no Three Oaths. It would have been a far easier time for BA to maneuver within the Tower. And I am presuming that even then Aes Sedai were concerned politically of their outward appearance to the world so the 13th Depository most assuredly existed. To alter, even slightly, a version of the text would take no more than two or three BA Sisters who have been placed in that faculty. Add a few fires in the early days when books were not as distributed, modestly speaking, as they are in modern Randland, and poof you can replace anything. And even in modern Randland books are not hugely available, however, back that up 2000 years and what was book distribution then? Three copies of a single book (one for the 13th, one for the main library in the White Tower, and one for some great nation of the world whose scholars would then transcribe one or two copies?). A few translations and interpretations by various scholars and you can alter almost anything [Removed].

But as far as why alter the Randland KC? Because it would be simple to omit something about the Crystal Throne. No one knows what it is.

exactly. and that is the problem with your argument. nobody knows what it is and that includes Ishy. there is no Crystal Throne at the time, no Seanchan Empire and no empress. All those things were created some time after Luthiar came over to the Seanchan. so at the time of Trolloc wars (about 1000 years before Hawkwing) Ishy could have absolutely no idea what kneeling to the Crystal throne would mean. By the time The Crystal throne came into existence the Randland version of the prophecies would be pretty much set in stone and impossible to alter.

[Terez]

I think it's more reasonable to assume that Luthiar brought them over to the Seanchan once he arrived.

If you'll look at the link I posted upthread, you'll see a quote showing that the KC was already known on the Seanchan continent before Luthair arrived - the Seanchan believe that the pre-existing version was the corrupted one.

 

there is no Crystal Throne at the time, no Seanchan Empire and no empress.

The Crystal Throne probably predates Luthair.