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Seanchan prophesies are right


Morist
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  1. 1. Who has the original version of the Prophesies?



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Can the Seanchan prophesies be right?

 

Let's look at the facts:

 

Luthair comes to Seanchan with the prophesies

Crystal throne does not exist yet

It is mentioned in the prophesies though

Ishamael has great influence in the Western Continent (where he knows all the LB action will happen at the end of the age), but not Seanchan (even Trolloc wars did not touch them much)

...and most importantly - Avi heard of the "kneeling to the Crystal Throne" in the columns, so we know it gets fulfilled

 

What are your thoughts?

Could Luthair have actually brought the last unaltered version of the prophesies before Ishamael tinkered with them on the main continent?

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The Crystal Throne was an artifact from the Age of Legends, presumably. I wrote a round-up of the Seanchan prophecies, if anyone is interested. I figure the Seanchan version of the KC is probably corrupted, but there's nothing to say both versions weren't corrupted other than the fact that it would have been difficult nearing on impossible to push a corrupted version in Randland, while Luthair at least had a reason for stamping out the original version on the Seanchan continent - something that the citizens could believe in. But the Essanik Cycle is a totally different thing, and probably not corrupted at all.

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The Crystal Throne was an artifact from the Age of Legends, presumably. I wrote a round-up of the Seanchan prophecies, if anyone is interested. I figure the Seanchan version of the KC is probably corrupted, but there's nothing to say both versions weren't corrupted other than the fact that it would have been difficult nearing on impossible to push a corrupted version in Randland, while Luthair at least had a reason for stamping out the original version on the Seanchan continent - something that the citizens could believe in. But the Essanik Cycle is a totally different thing, and probably not corrupted at all.

 

Great read - thanks!

 

Question is: is kneeling to the CT in the Essanik Cycle or the Karaethon Cycle?

 

If in the latter - then the Seanchan may have the less-tampered with version.

 

Regarding pushing a corrupted version in Randland - it would require a centralised effort, which would be possible either through complete anarchy (i.e. when everything gets destroyed and is much easier to plant a dozen of copies here and there) or through a central rule (i.e. "this is the true version of the book - all others are now outlawed - go and destroy them").

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The Crystal Throne was an artifact from the Age of Legends, presumably. I wrote a round-up of the Seanchan prophecies, if anyone is interested. I figure the Seanchan version of the KC is probably corrupted, but there's nothing to say both versions weren't corrupted other than the fact that it would have been difficult nearing on impossible to push a corrupted version in Randland, while Luthair at least had a reason for stamping out the original version on the Seanchan continent - something that the citizens could believe in. But the Essanik Cycle is a totally different thing, and probably not corrupted at all.

 

Great read - thanks!

 

Question is: is kneeling to the CT in the Essanik Cycle or the Karaethon Cycle?

It's in the KC. As I noted, though, it's most likely that Rand will bow either way, because Tuon believes that her prophecies are correct, and she has no way of knowing otherwise. She believes that they have no chance of winning unless Rand bows to her.

 

If in the latter - then the Seanchan may have the less-tampered with version.

 

Regarding pushing a corrupted version in Randland - it would require a centralised effort, which would be possible either through complete anarchy (i.e. when everything gets destroyed and is much easier to plant a dozen of copies here and there) or through a central rule (i.e. "this is the true version of the book - all others are now outlawed - go and destroy them").

Yes, I considered that, but the problem is that the White Tower has never fallen to anarchy, though the nations have a time or two since the Breaking. They have presumably taken great care to preserve the prophecies.

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Yes, I considered that, but the problem is that the White Tower has never fallen to anarchy, though the nations have a time or two since the Breaking. They have presumably taken great care to preserve the prophecies.

 

Well we do have the BA in all levels of AS hierarchy. So is not an issue process-wise.

 

the added sections probably are true prophesy added later, maybe part of the shadows prophecy or someone elses that they added.

 

I always assumed that the prophesy cycles were constant, i.e. you don't add something to it. It would be a different cycle if you do.

If we take all recent Elaida's and Nicola's foretellings we would have to call it differently (like the Inflated-Ego-Women cycle or something).

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Yes, I considered that, but the problem is that the White Tower has never fallen to anarchy, though the nations have a time or two since the Breaking. They have presumably taken great care to preserve the prophecies.

 

Well we do have the BA in all levels of AS hierarchy.

Yes, but there are not so many of them that they can pull off something like this easily, or at all.

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Yes, I considered that, but the problem is that the White Tower has never fallen to anarchy, though the nations have a time or two since the Breaking. They have presumably taken great care to preserve the prophecies.

 

Well we do have the BA in all levels of AS hierarchy.

Yes, but there are not so many of them that they can pull off something like this easily, or at all.

 

Not easily.

But a book with the prophesies would be much lightly guarded than a storeroom of ter-sa-angreal. You would not expect people to tamper with them intentionally (remember the AS denial of BA). For most people (incl AS) it is just a book. A dangerous one, but one that you might find anywhere. So no use hiding/guarding it I assume.

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Yes, but then you have the problem of the fact that Aes Sedai typically make it their business to know the prophecies, and the fact that they exist in several copies with several translations.

 

True. And AS lifespans also reinforce this.

Unless all members of the Brown who were librarians in the prophesy section were Black of course.

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The Seanchan Prophecies, The Essanik cycle did not even come into being until after Hawkwing's armies crossed the Ocean and conquered those lands.

 

It is the collection of Damane foretellings.

 

As far as Ishamael goes, we don't know if he corrupted the Karaethon Cycle in Randland or the Essanik cycle in Seanchan.

 

What has been hinted at, is that he corrupted the copies of the Karaethon Cycle that were brought by Hawkwing's armies to Seanchan.

 

On an unrelated note, the actual Crystal Throne in Seandar is actually a ter'angreal that inspires great awe in its' presence.

Edited by Finnssss
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The Seanchan Prophecies, The Essanik cycle did not even come into being until after Hawkwing's armies crossed the Ocean and conquered those lands.

I don't know that this is true. The bit about the damane might be an assumption, or an oversight.

Edited by Terez
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It is my understanding that the interpretation of the KC have taken place at different times by many different people. There have also been several notable fires within the library at Tar Valon, destroy who knows what in regards to prophecy. I also tend to think that the Seanchan have been Ishamael's little experiment from the very beginning, but they may be more correct than the Western lands.

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The Seanchan Prophecies, The Essanik cycle did not even come into being until after Hawkwing's armies crossed the Ocean and conquered those lands.

I don't know that this is true. The bit about the damane might be an assumption, or an oversight.

 

BS from a book signing, Nov '09

 

Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishamael)? Which is more correct?

BS: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering…

Question: In both?

BS: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

Edited by Finnssss
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Yes, I already addressed that quote in my response to you. Did you have something to say about my actual argument?

 

The way I see it, all channelers in Seanchan are damane, so it can be easy to forget sometimes that it wasn't always that way. They had their own version of the Karaethon Cycle when Luthair showed up, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Essanik Cycle predates Luthair as well.

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Yes, I already addressed that quote in my response to you. Did you have something to say about my actual argument?

 

I don't see where you did address it actually but if you're arguing that it might be an oversight on BS's part, that is of course possible and someone should ask him about it.

 

The way I see it, all channelers in Seanchan are damane, so it can be easy to forget sometimes that it wasn't always that way. They had their own version of the Karaethon Cycle when Luthair showed up, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Essanik Cycle predates Luthair as well.

 

The whole point of saying that it is a collection of Damane foretellings is that it would mean the Essanik Cycle would only be about 1100 years old.

 

Seanchan before being consolidated was a collection of dictatorships ruled by marath'damane and primitive, fairly uneducated tribes. It wasn't exactly a place of co-operation and shared knowledge.

 

It's possible the Essanik Cycle is actually older than just 1100 years but the only evidence we have on it is from what BS said, so unless it was an oversight on his part then that's what we have.

 

Either way, it wouldn't predate the Karaethon Cycle, only be the same age, as the world before the breaking/War of the Shadow, was one big happy united place.

Edited by Finnssss
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The Seanchan prophecies are definately corrupt. The Randland prophecies may also be corrupt, but we don't know that, nor to we have any particular reason to believe it.

 

The prophecies we can be reasonably sure are not corrupted are the Dark prophecies.

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Yes, I already addressed that quote in my response to you. Did you have something to say about my actual argument?

 

I don't see where you did address it

What else would I mean by 'the bit about the damane'? It's the only thing that implies that they do not predate Luthair.

 

actually but if you're arguing that it might be an oversight on BS's part

Either Brandon or Matt.

Edited by Terez
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Either Brandon or Matt.

 

...and like I already said in the part of my post you left out, it will need to be asked if it was an oversight or not but until then, it's all we have and that means the Essanik Cycle is only about 1100 years old.

Edited by Finnssss
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I've always found it intuitively obvious that the Seanchan version was distorted. Why would Ishamael change the Randland version in such a manner? If he had left them in the original version no doubt half the thrones in Randland would have called themselves crystal throne. They would have warred endlessly over it, because it would have given them the chance of controlling the Dragon Reborn.

 

Besides it's obviously a lot easier to corrupt a single dictatorship then to change the heterogenous Randland. To change such a central prophecy he would have to change the prophecies in all the kingdoms and in the WT without the knowledge of anyone. And especially the WT sounds problematic. You have Aes Sedai who live hundreds of years and they could hardly not notice that what they had learned differed from what they taught their novices. Or the ones who copied the books wouldn't notice such a discrepancy.

 

Furthermore, while him kneeling to the Crystal Throne would be a credible move for Zen Rand if he felt that could help save more people and lead to peace I don't think such an endorsement of the Seanchan way of life would be in the interest of Randland. Their practice of enslaving people is an abomination, no matter how orderly and peaceful it is for the common people.

Edited by b3arz3rg3r
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Either Brandon or Matt.

 

...and like I already said in the part of my post you left out, it will need to be asked if it was an oversight or not but until then, it's all we have and that means the Essanik Cycle is only about 1100 years old.

I left out the rest of your post because it was irrelevant. No one asked how old Essanik was - you decided to volunteer that info on your own. Most people don't try to read that much into the wording of signing reports because they are 1) on the spot, with no time for thinking/looking stuff up, and 2) generally paraphrased.

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First, id like to thank Terez for the Seanchan prophecy consolidaton. I do have some questions regarding it however. If Rand is supposed to "bind the nine moons to serve him", hasn't he missed his window of opportunity? Tuon has already named herself the Empress, does that mean she is no longer the daughter of nine moons? I suppose this could indicate a future daughter of Tuon's that Rand would bind to him (in the Dragon's Peace perhaps) but I find it unlikely that prophesy would concern stipulations in a peace treaty.

 

In point #3, you indicate that Ishmael corrupted Artur Hawkwing (not in dispute) and as a result he "...sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come". Is the "doom yet to come" in reference to the discrepancy between the K-cycle and the E-cyle causing conflict between Seanchan and Randland, or is it the creation of the Senchan altogether?

 

Havent voted on this one yet, my friends and I still debate this one and I have not made up my mind.

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I left out the rest of your post because it was irrelevant. No one asked how old Essanik was - you decided to volunteer that info on your own. Most people don't try to read that much into the wording of signing reports because they are 1) on the spot, with no time for thinking/looking stuff up, and 2) generally paraphrased.

 

First off, all I did was state the info that we have been given about the Essanik Cycle. If you have an issue with that info, then take it up with BS for giving it, not me for repeating it.

 

Second, the rest of my post was not irrelevant as it gave a pretty strong reason why the Essanik Cycle prolly does not pre-date the consolidation of Seanchan.

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speaking to Anath: "I must find a way to make contact

with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal

Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost." The Prophecies of the Dragon said

so, clearly.

 

How accurate is Tuon's memory? Did she in fact read the Prophecies herself, or

were they read to her, perhaps by her Soe'feia Anath (aka Semirhage) or the

Darkfriend Suroth?

 

Of course, there is one person in Randland who might well know what the original, uncorrupted Prophecies really were - Rand Sedai.

Edited by FarShainMael
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First, id like to thank Terez for the Seanchan prophecy consolidaton. I do have some questions regarding it however. If Rand is supposed to "bind the nine moons to serve him", hasn't he missed his window of opportunity? Tuon has already named herself the Empress, does that mean she is no longer the daughter of nine moons? I suppose this could indicate a future daughter of Tuon's that Rand would bind to him (in the Dragon's Peace perhaps) but I find it unlikely that prophesy would concern stipulations in a peace treaty.

 

In point #3, you indicate that Ishmael corrupted Artur Hawkwing (not in dispute) and as a result he "...sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come". Is the "doom yet to come" in reference to the discrepancy between the K-cycle and the E-cyle causing conflict between Seanchan and Randland, or is it the creation of the Senchan altogether?

 

Havent voted on this one yet, my friends and I still debate this one and I have not made up my mind.

 

Fortuona may no longer be the daughter of the nine moons, but the court of the nine moons is still the seat of the empress. So it's not to late to bind the nine moons to serve him.

 

Wasn't the "doom yet to come" the Corenne? The return as an invasion force?

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