How to prevent Avi's vision of Seanchan dominance

[b3arz3rg3r]

I've been thinking in what way the Aiel could change which would allow them to prosper in the future and I think I've come up with something which suits their past and their present. Aiel means Dedicated and that description fits them perfectly. In the AoL they were dedicated to peace and became the ultimate pacifists, after the breaking they dedicated themselves to the arts of war and became the deadliest people in the world. Even the Tuatha'an share that trait. Their dedication to their way of life is as strong as that of their ancestors and their cousins. That dedication is their greatest strength, but it is also the cause for their downfall in the future.

 

At the root of the doom Aviendha saw for her people is that the Aiel were left aimless after the last battle. They lacked a higher purpose, an ideal they could strive for. We were told that by Ronam. The obvious solution is that they need for Rand or rather for Aviendha to provide that new purpose. Once they have that they'll center their way of life around it and prosper.

So the question is, what could be that new purpose?

 

It won't be the Way of the Leaf. The Aiel aren't ready for that yet, the wheel will have to turn a few ages before they can once more follow that path. However, it shouldn't be forgotten that the ones who set the Aiel on their current path were the Jenn and Aes Sedai with their prophecies. They knew that the only way the Aiel could survive was through war, but they wouldn't want them to remain warlike after the need for it had passed. They felt sorrow for the Aiel who had lost their old ways and would want them to find them again.

Aiel and the other peoples do not mix well, individually perhaps, but as a people the Aiel remain mostly apart. That's been the case since the AoL and if Aviendha's viewing is any measure it'll be the case in the future as well. That's why I think that putting the Aiel as they are right now in the Westlands is a guarantee for disaster. There is no place in the Westlands where the Aiel can settle as a people without opposition. If not the Seanchan they would come to odds with some other nation. Yet, if they stay in the Waste and continue as they did they'll also doom themselves and like Nakomi said why would they remain in such a hostile environment when the need for it had passed?

 

My answer to that is perhaps the Aiel haven't yet discovered the true purpose why the Jenn put them into the Waste. The Aiel call the Waste the Three-fold Land. A punishment for their sins, a place to test their courage and an anvil to shape them. What if there's a fourth role the Waste will yet play? What if the reward for their service is also hidden there?

Afterall why would the Jenn build a city like Rhuidean in such a carefully chosen location if they didn't want the Aiel to live there for a long time? Rand said there was an ocean of water hidden under Rhuidean. Depending on how large that ocean is and whether there are other such deposits could the Waste not be transformed from an inhospitable desert into a lush paradise over time? Especially if one thinks how the Aiel and the Ogier sang together to grow crops in the AoL. If that ability is still latent among them couldn't it be used again? Also with Egwene's exchange program soon Aiel will learn about the weather weaves of the Seafolk and with those at their disposal they would have all the tools they need to accomplish such a transformation.

 

The Aiel dedicating themselves to geoengineering the Waste and healing all those scars the DO left on the rest of the land, like the Blight would be a fitting purpose and one which the Jenn would approve of. And it would only be fair that after over two thousand years in the harshest place on earth that harshest place turned out to be the richest one of all. Besides such a daunting project should keep the Aiel strong and in the present instead of diminished and living in the past.

[capuga]

I've been thinking in what way the Aiel could change which would allow them to prosper in the future and I think I've come up with something which suits their past and their present. Aiel means Dedicated and that description fits them perfectly. In the AoL they were dedicated to peace and became the ultimate pacifists, after the breaking they dedicated themselves to the arts of war and became the deadliest people in the world. Even the Tuatha'an share that trait. Their dedication to their way of life is as strong as that of their ancestors and their cousins. That dedication is their greatest strength, but it is also the cause for their downfall in the future.

 

At the root of the doom Aviendha saw for her people is that the Aiel were left aimless after the last battle. They lacked a higher purpose, an ideal they could strive for. We were told that by Ronam. The obvious solution is that they need for Rand or rather for Aviendha to provide that new purpose. Once they have that they'll center their way of life around it and prosper.

So the question is, what could be that new purpose?

 

It won't be the Way of the Leaf. The Aiel aren't ready for that yet, the wheel will have to turn a few ages before they can once more follow that path. However, it shouldn't be forgotten that the ones who set the Aiel on their current path were the Jenn and Aes Sedai with their prophecies. They knew that the only way the Aiel could survive was through war, but they wouldn't want them to remain warlike after the need for it had passed. They felt sorrow for the Aiel who had lost their old ways and would want them to find them again.

Aiel and the other peoples do not mix well, individually perhaps, but as a people the Aiel remain mostly apart. That's been the case since the AoL and if Aviendha's viewing is any measure it'll be the case in the future as well. That's why I think that putting the Aiel as they are right now in the Westlands is a guarantee for disaster. There is no place in the Westlands where the Aiel can settle as a people without opposition. If not the Seanchan they would come to odds with some other nation. Yet, if they stay in the Waste and continue as they did they'll also doom themselves and like Nakomi said why would they remain in such a hostile environment when the need for it had passed?

 

My answer to that is perhaps the Aiel haven't yet discovered the true purpose why the Jenn put them into the Waste. The Aiel call the Waste the Three-fold Land. A punishment for their sins, a place to test their courage and an anvil to shape them. What if there's a fourth role the Waste will yet play? What if the reward for their service is also hidden there?

Afterall why would the Jenn build a city like Rhuidean in such a carefully chosen location if they didn't want the Aiel to live there for a long time? Rand said there was an ocean of water hidden under Rhuidean. Depending on how large that ocean is and whether there are other such deposits could the Waste not be transformed from an inhospitable desert into a lush paradise over time? Especially if one thinks how the Aiel and the Ogier sang together to grow crops in the AoL. If that ability is still latent among them couldn't it be used again? Also with Egwene's exchange program soon Aiel will learn about the weather weaves of the Seafolk and with those at their disposal they would have all the tools they need to accomplish such a transformation.

 

The Aiel dedicating themselves to geoengineering the Waste and healing all those scars the DO left on the rest of the land, like the Blight would be a fitting purpose and one which the Jenn would approve of. And it would only be fair that after over two thousand years in the harshest place on earth that harshest place turned out to be the richest one of all. Besides such a daunting project should keep the Aiel strong and in the present instead of diminished and living in the past.

 

I like it. Nothing else to add.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I've been thinking in what way the Aiel could change which would allow them to prosper in the future and I think I've come up with something which suits their past and their present. Aiel means Dedicated and that description fits them perfectly. In the AoL they were dedicated to peace and became the ultimate pacifists, after the breaking they dedicated themselves to the arts of war and became the deadliest people in the world. Even the Tuatha'an share that trait. Their dedication to their way of life is as strong as that of their ancestors and their cousins. That dedication is their greatest strength, but it is also the cause for their downfall in the future.

 

At the root of the doom Aviendha saw for her people is that the Aiel were left aimless after the last battle. They lacked a higher purpose, an ideal they could strive for. We were told that by Ronam. The obvious solution is that they need for Rand or rather for Aviendha to provide that new purpose. Once they have that they'll center their way of life around it and prosper.

So the question is, what could be that new purpose?

 

It won't be the Way of the Leaf. The Aiel aren't ready for that yet, the wheel will have to turn a few ages before they can once more follow that path. However, it shouldn't be forgotten that the ones who set the Aiel on their current path were the Jenn and Aes Sedai with their prophecies. They knew that the only way the Aiel could survive was through war, but they wouldn't want them to remain warlike after the need for it had passed. They felt sorrow for the Aiel who had lost their old ways and would want them to find them again.

Aiel and the other peoples do not mix well, individually perhaps, but as a people the Aiel remain mostly apart. That's been the case since the AoL and if Aviendha's viewing is any measure it'll be the case in the future as well. That's why I think that putting the Aiel as they are right now in the Westlands is a guarantee for disaster. There is no place in the Westlands where the Aiel can settle as a people without opposition. If not the Seanchan they would come to odds with some other nation. Yet, if they stay in the Waste and continue as they did they'll also doom themselves and like Nakomi said why would they remain in such a hostile environment when the need for it had passed?

 

My answer to that is perhaps the Aiel haven't yet discovered the true purpose why the Jenn put them into the Waste. The Aiel call the Waste the Three-fold Land. A punishment for their sins, a place to test their courage and an anvil to shape them. What if there's a fourth role the Waste will yet play? What if the reward for their service is also hidden there?

Afterall why would the Jenn build a city like Rhuidean in such a carefully chosen location if they didn't want the Aiel to live there for a long time? Rand said there was an ocean of water hidden under Rhuidean. Depending on how large that ocean is and whether there are other such deposits could the Waste not be transformed from an inhospitable desert into a lush paradise over time? Especially if one thinks how the Aiel and the Ogier sang together to grow crops in the AoL. If that ability is still latent among them couldn't it be used again? Also with Egwene's exchange program soon Aiel will learn about the weather weaves of the Seafolk and with those at their disposal they would have all the tools they need to accomplish such a transformation.

 

The Aiel dedicating themselves to geoengineering the Waste and healing all those scars the DO left on the rest of the land, like the Blight would be a fitting purpose and one which the Jenn would approve of. And it would only be fair that after over two thousand years in the harshest place on earth that harshest place turned out to be the richest one of all. Besides such a daunting project should keep the Aiel strong and in the present instead of diminished and living in the past.

 

I like it. Nothing else to add.

 

Thanks. Nothing else to add. XD

[randsc]

What do people mean, saying that the Seanchan won't attack other nations, and that they are so honorable that they will keep any peace?

 

Why do we know who the Seanchan are at all? Why are they here? Because they invaded other nations, unprovoked.

 

The Seanchan consider the consolidation of the entire world to be their destiny and birthright.

[David Selig]

Because the Seanchan are supposed to be really obsessed about keeping their oaths and promises, it's noted in the Guide too.

BBoBA, Ch. 16

 

Despite the political machinations of Seanchan life, honor is supremely important to them. They practice an idealized form of chivalry based on the value of their word. To them, a word of honor, once given, is considered absolute. This is true for all—man, woman, slave or noble.

 

 

So if they pledge to keep the peace, they will keep it IMO.

 

From their point of view, their attacks so far were justified since the locals didn't keep the oaths their ancestors to Hawkwing and his descendants. Totally ridiculous, of course, but also another proof on the value they place on oaths.

[Lord D]

Because the Seanchan are supposed to be really obsessed about keeping their oaths and promises, it's noted in the Guide too.

BBoBA, Ch. 16

 

Despite the political machinations of Seanchan life, honor is supremely important to them. They practice an idealized form of chivalry based on the value of their word. To them, a word of honor, once given, is considered absolute. This is true for all—man, woman, slave or noble.

 

 

So if they pledge to keep the peace, they will keep it IMO.

 

From their point of view, their attacks so far were justified since the locals didn't keep the oaths their ancestors to Hawkwing and his descendants. Totally ridiculous, of course, but also another proof on the value they place on oaths.

It's possible to keep the letter of your oaths while breaking the spirit. The Seanchan may not actually attack, but could provoke their enemies into attacking first, then claim that their enemies had been the first to break the truce. This in fact seems to be what was happening with the Seanchan sending raiding parties very close to the big Aiel camps in the vision.

[AshaShan]

Because the Seanchan are supposed to be really obsessed about keeping their oaths and promises, it's noted in the Guide too.

 

A large generalisation that. What value the oaths of Egeanin or Bethamin? Not particularly villianous characters but oathbreakers nonetheless. All it takes is one Empress/Emperor who decides not to keep the peace and the war begins anew. Their followers aren't likely to raise a fuss about it.

[Muad Cheade]

It's possible to keep the letter of your oaths while breaking the spirit. The Seanchan may not actually attack, but could provoke their enemies into attacking first, then claim that their enemies had been the first to break the truce. This in fact seems to be what was happening with the Seanchan sending raiding parties very close to the big Aiel camps in the vision.

They were not raiding parties. The reason the Seanchan were attacked was because they were close and thought to be attempting to inspect the camps.

[Nygma]

What do people mean, saying that the Seanchan won't attack other nations, and that they are so honorable that they will keep any peace?

 

Why do we know who the Seanchan are at all? Why are they here? Because they invaded other nations, unprovoked.

 

The Seanchan consider the consolidation of the entire world to be their destiny and birthright.

Not exactly.

 

...But in her heart, always, she was Tuon Athaem Kore Paendrag, and she had come to reclaim what had been stolen from her ancestor.

 

Pretty clear from Tuon's PoV in PoD what the Seanchan position is. The other nations carved their lands from Artur Hawkwing's empire and they, as direct successors to Hawkwing, are coming back to reclaim it. They believe they were provoked by scavengers carving up and stealing the High King's legacy while his son was too far away to do anything about it. Now that Seanchan is fully in hand, they're coming back to set things right.

[David Selig]

It's possible to keep the letter of your oaths while breaking the spirit. The Seanchan may not actually attack, but could provoke their enemies into attacking first, then claim that their enemies had been the first to break the truce. This in fact seems to be what was happening with the Seanchan sending raiding parties very close to the big Aiel camps in the vision.

The Aiel were not part of the Dragon's peace and the terms of the peace deal didn't forbid the Seanchan to enter Arad Doman (even one of the Aiel noted this to Padra).

 

Bethamin and Egeanin are extreme cases, forced to do what they did due to being under threat of torture and execution. The way the Seanchan society is presented, I find it really unlikely that any Empress will be able to just discard an oath and attack if she or a previous Empress has made an oath to keep the peace. Her nobles will turn against her for such an extreme violation of the Seanchan honour.

[AshaShan]

Bethamin and Egeanin are extreme cases, forced to do what they did due to being under threat of torture and execution. The way the Seanchan society is presented, I find it really unlikely that any Empress will be able to just discard an oath and attack if she or a previous Empress has made an oath to keep the peace. Her nobles will turn against her for such an extreme violation of the Seanchan honour.

 

We have very different views on the Seanchan, for I cannot imagine any scene where a Seanchan noble stands up before the Empress (may she live forever) and declares that she is a dishonorable woman and that he/she intends to dethrone her for it.

[Diederichos]

I mean people, how many times does it need to be said. We have proof, actual, incontrovertible word of god(or the writer in this case) proof that the Seanchan would not have broken the peace. The very section with the contingency plans shows that there was no plans by the Seanchan to actually break the peace, only respond if others had broken it. Some people need to move beyond this Seanchan=evil backstabbers that is directly contradicted by the Word(the books in this case).

 

Another point I'd like to raise is why do the Aiel have to have give up the spear? I really don't like this Way of the Leaf crap because it's making an entire people act like their ancestors based on the whim of some long dead Aes Sedai.

[capuga]

I mean people, how many times does it need to be said. We have proof, actual, incontrovertible word of god(or the writer in this case) proof that the Seanchan would not have broken the peace. The very section with the contingency plans shows that there was no plans by the Seanchan to actually break the peace, only respond if others had broken it. Some people need to move beyond this Seanchan=evil backstabbers that is directly contradicted by the Word(the books in this case).

 

Actually, all we have is some trippy vision of a possible future that Avi saw where the Seanchan apparently haven't broken the peace. We have no reason to believe that events will actually end up playing out like this. It's perfectly reasonable to argue that the evidence we have seen so far in the books (the Seanchan M.O.) is that the Seanchan will want to consolidate all lands into their empire.

 

Another point I'd like to raise is why do the Aiel have to have give up the spear? I really don't like this Way of the Leaf crap because it's making an entire people act like their ancestors based on the whim of some long dead Aes Sedai.

 

Couldn't agree more. I will throw up in my mouth if the Aiel end up following the Way.

[herid]

 

 

Another point I'd like to raise is why do the Aiel have to have give up the spear? I really don't like this Way of the Leaf crap because it's making an entire people act like their ancestors based on the whim of some long dead Aes Sedai.

 

Couldn't agree more. I will throw up in my mouth if the Aiel end up following the Way.

then you'd better start practicing

I don't like it either but there are way too many clues pointing in that direction.

[Diederichos]

If the Seanchan do not swear to the Peace, I fully expect them to try and maybe even likely succeed in beating everyone and making Randland into Seanchan 2.0, if they do swear it, then we clearly see that they will keep to it. If we discount that part of Aviendha's experience as a trippy vision, then this whole exercise is moot since the relevance of that entire section is reduced to being worth nothing.

[herid]

If the Seanchan do not swear to the Peace, I fully expect them to try and maybe even likely succeed in beating everyone and making Randland into Seanchan 2.0, if they do swear it, then we clearly see that they will keep to it. If we discount that part of Aviendha's experience as a trippy vision, then this whole exercise is moot since the relevance of that entire section is reduced to being worth nothing.

it's not worth nothing. the purpose of Avi's visions was to show her that the Aiel need to change and more specifically that they need to change their war culture. that's made crystal clear and is the only purpose of the visions. Practically nothing from those visions will actually happen in the story. just about the only things that will occur are winning the LB and the peace of the Dragon as they are guaranteed by other prophecies.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Abandoning their war culture is not the same as returning to the way of the leaf. The Aiel just aren't ready to return to the way of the leaf yet. There are other ways they could change.

[herid]

Abandoning their war culture is not the same as returning to the way of the leaf. The Aiel just aren't ready to return to the way of the leaf yet. There are other ways they could change.

true but there are many other indications.

This theory lists most of them

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/aiel-need-to-adopt-way-of-leaf-before.html

I think it's wrong that this has to happen before the LB but I do think it will happen after it.

[SvetSedi]

Abandoning their war culture is not the same as returning to the way of the leaf. The Aiel just aren't ready to return to the way of the leaf yet. There are other ways they could change.

Actually, they never gave it up completely. They kept gai'shain. Every Aiel knows how and accepts the need to give up their warlike tendencies COMPLETELY on an instants notice. Many madidens (and maybe others) already after serving their "year" do not return to the spear.

 

Many Aiel gave up the spear just on hearing the "truth" from Rand.

 

They will easily return to the Way of the Leaf - which is probably good but also kind of sad.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Abandoning their war culture is not the same as returning to the way of the leaf. The Aiel just aren't ready to return to the way of the leaf yet. There are other ways they could change.

Actually, they never gave it up completely. They kept gai'shain. Every Aiel knows how and accepts the need to give up their warlike tendencies COMPLETELY on an instants notice. Many madidens (and maybe others) already after serving their "year" do not return to the spear.

 

Many Aiel gave up the spear just on hearing the "truth" from Rand.

 

They will easily return to the Way of the Leaf - which is probably good but also kind of sad.

 

The ones you mentioned are the ones who fell victim to the Bleakness. They, like the Shaido, are part of the Aiel which get destroyed by Rand's coming. They aren't the Remnant of the Remnant he will save. It means nothing if the Aiel return to the way of the leaf if they think they have to because of the believes of their ancestors. It would be an empty ideology. Only when they actually believe in it will there be any meaning. And the Aiel aren't ready to believe in it.

 

Abandoning their war culture is not the same as returning to the way of the leaf. The Aiel just aren't ready to return to the way of the leaf yet. There are other ways they could change.

true but there are many other indications.

This theory lists most of them

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/aiel-need-to-adopt-way-of-leaf-before.html

I think it's wrong that this has to happen before the LB but I do think it will happen after it.

 

Not anytime soon. They can't adopt the Way from one day to another. It will take generations for such a change to occur. And my guess is that the Aiel won't regain the Way of the Leaf before they have forgotten their warlike ways in the Waste. That's the way the Wheel of Time is supposed to work.

[Hyronimus]

hi there and sorry if this has been said before;the point that there was noone to actually keep the peace as mentioned in Avi's vision came as we learnt the Aiel had been left without a part in the peace. i see them taking up that role. when the Aiel moved into arad doman to keep the peace Rhaurc notes that they arn't police. Rather than being this agressive force, they could be sworn to a peace that they may only break if the Daragon's peace itself is broken. this would make them as harmless as the traveling people to your average westlander. Just don't run an army across anybody's border. We've seen how well the seachen welcome the tautha'an.

 

Do you reckon this has any possibilities?

[herid]

hi there and sorry if this has been said before;the point that there was noone to actually keep the peace as mentioned in Avi's vision came as we learnt the Aiel had been left without a part in the peace. i see them taking up that role. when the Aiel moved into arad doman to keep the peace Rhaurc notes that they arn't police. Rather than being this agressive force, they could be sworn to a peace that they may only break if the Daragon's peace itself is broken. this would make them as harmless as the traveling people to your average westlander. Just don't run an army across anybody's border. We've seen how well the seachen welcome the tautha'an.

 

Do you reckon this has any possibilities?

Yes, that remark in Avi's visions about no enforcement mechanism for the Peace of the Dragon struck me too. and making the Aiel into a peacekeeping force does seem very reasonable but I don't see how that squares with them adopting the way of the leaf which I still think they are going to have to do.

[CosmicBob]

Avi's visions are possibly the most disturbing part of the entire book for me. But I do think that they were given to her to enable her to try to change the future. She can change the Aiel culture, her and Rand can do it. It probably means that the Shaido will be wiped out to the last person, but the other Aiel might be willing to accept change. Now, I can't say WHAT that change would/should be.

 

The Seanchan also need to change, I think. Chaining channelers, while acceptable to them, probably won't be acceptable to Rand or even to Mat. Those two might be able to influence Tuon (assuming she survives).

 

I am hoping Avi is obsessed enough with her visions to tell the Wise Ones and to tell Rand. They all need to know what she saw. Especially Rand.

[Muad Cheade]

From what we have seen, the Seanchan hold their promises. Tylee for a random example. They will hold to the Dragon's Peace.

 

It seems to me that the onus is on the Aiel to change, not the Seanchan.

[capuga]

From what we have seen, the Seanchan hold their promises. Tylee for a random example. They will hold to the Dragon's Peace.

 

It seems to me that the onus is on the Aiel to change, not the Seanchan.

 

Even without expressly attacking the Aiel, holding their Wise Ones as damane is an act that agitates a known warrior culture. This contributes to the war. Even if you want to argue that it is not the Seanchan's fault, portions of their culture (the damane) will inevitably lead to conflict with others and will need to be changed for there to be true lasting peace.

 

In the visions, the Aiel were the primary instigators. This doesn't mean that the Seanchan are blameless or that certain changes to their culture wouldn't help smooth the path to freedom. They don't have to intend to cause war for their culture and practices to help bring it about anyways.