How to prevent Avi's vision of Seanchan dominance

[capuga]

Everyone assumes that refers to the Last Battle, but it probably doesn't. Too many logical contradictions. War will not go away completely, but Rand's dream is of an era of peace to follow the Last Battle, at least in Randland proper, and I think that is what RJ was going for. The Empire will probably conquer the world just as Aviendha saw, and that will probably require some fighting, starting with the Seanchan continent, but they will conquer with a vision of peace and liberty for all (like Hawkwing), rather than the evil empire that they became in the vision. Hawkwing's vision was a noble one, hence Ishamael's desire to destroy it:

 

While the meaning of the Foretelling is still in doubt, I still maintain that the likelihood of lasting peace for mankind is slim to none. How many periods of worldwide peace has our world known? Man will end up fighting man which leaves a place for the Aiel's war-like culture in the world.

 

I believe that if the Aiel retreat into the Waste and isolate themselves from the rest of the world like they have previously, they can be free to continue with their fighting like they have been. If they decide to remain in the wetlands, then I believe that they will have to moderate their aggression a bit. However, most people (not you specifically) seem to think that the Aiel's only course of action should be to become ridiculous pacifist servants. To me, this seems both unnecessary and a bit of a pathetic fate for a group of people that a lot of readers like and respect. There's a wide range of options between constant warfare and pacifism.

[herid]

However, most people (not you specifically) seem to think that the Aiel's only course of action should be to become ridiculous pacifist servants.

It's not that I want the Aiel to do that (I rather dislike that myself actually) but there are way too many indications in the books that this is what they are destined for. we discussed some of them above but there are several more. check out Linda's theory on the issue in 13th depository

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/aiel-need-to-adopt-way-of-leaf-before.html

in addition to the ones she mentions there are Avi's visions and a strong implication there that the Aiel have to give up their war culture.

Also, in tEoTW the Green man says this to Rand

 

“Strange clothes you wear, Child of the Dragon. Has the Wheel turned so far? Do the People of the Dragon return to the First Covenant? But you wear a sword. That is neither now nor then.”

 

The first covenant is the way of the leaf.

Sanderson mentioned in his twitter feed that there are lots of foreshadowings in what the Green Man says.

 

In addition, Randlands are on the brink of an industrial revolution. Retreating into the waste and maintaining their old tribal ways as you suggest is surely not an option for the Aiel as that will definitely lead to them becoming irrelevant and dying out.

[b3arz3rg3r]

However, most people (not you specifically) seem to think that the Aiel's only course of action should be to become ridiculous pacifist servants.

It's not that I want the Aiel to do that (I rather dislike that myself actually) but there are way too many indications in the books that this is what they are destined for. we discussed some of them above but there are several more. check out Linda's theory on the issue in 13th depository

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/aiel-need-to-adopt-way-of-leaf-before.html

in addition to the ones she mentions there are Avi's visions and a strong implication there that the Aiel have to give up their war culture.

Also, in tEoTW the Green man says this to Rand

 

“Strange clothes you wear, Child of the Dragon. Has the Wheel turned so far? Do the People of the Dragon return to the First Covenant? But you wear a sword. That is neither now nor then.”

 

The first covenant is the way of the leaf.

Sanderson mentioned in his twitter feed that there are lots of foreshadowings in what the Green Man says.

 

In addition, Randlands are on the brink of an industrial revolution. Retreating into the waste and maintaining their old tribal ways as you suggest is surely not an option for the Aiel as that will definitely lead to them becoming irrelevant and dying out.

 

I don't think the Aiel will return to the way of the leaf anytime soon. Just like the DO won't be freed again until he has been forgotten the Aiel won't follow the way of the leaf again until they have forgotten their time as warriors.

[Feral]

Both cultures needs to change because they both show an inability to understand and accept different cultures, and an intolerence of any ideas that differ from their own. There are many Aiel we see who are not like this, but Aviendha herself is a prime example, so it would not be surprising to me if her children did bring about the downfall of the Aiel. I think it would make a big different to the whole situation even if Aviendha was the only one to change her outlook.

[herid]

Both cultures needs to change because they both show an inability to understand and accept different cultures, and an intolerence of any ideas that differ from their own. There are many Aiel we see who are not like this, but Aviendha herself is a prime example, so it would not be surprising to me if her children did bring about the downfall of the Aiel. I think it would make a big different to the whole situation even if Aviendha was the only one to change her outlook.

I agree with most of what you say but I think it's unfair to blame Aviendha's descendants for what happened to the Aiel in her visions. her children are consulted about going to war with the Seanchan but only consulted. They are not the main driving force behind it. And even her granddaughter who is a decidedly unpleasant character was not the one who suggested tricking the queen of Andor.

"Is this tight?" Hehyal asked as they walked, their spears surrounding them to keep away prying ears.

Oncala started. "It was your plan." He nodded, frowning.

so the idea was Heyahl's not Oncala's. and in any case, the main mistake was deciding to go to war with the Seanchan in the first place. everything was going to go downhill from there no matter what. The other nations would join the war sooner or later and it would snowball from there.

 

the main lesson of the visions is that the Aiel need to change as a people, not that just Avi needs to change or that she needs to perfect her parenting skills.

[Feral]

Both cultures needs to change because they both show an inability to understand and accept different cultures, and an intolerence of any ideas that differ from their own. There are many Aiel we see who are not like this, but Aviendha herself is a prime example, so it would not be surprising to me if her children did bring about the downfall of the Aiel. I think it would make a big different to the whole situation even if Aviendha was the only one to change her outlook.

I agree with most of what you say but I think it's unfair to blame Aviendha's descendants for what happened to the Aiel in her visions. her children are consulted about going to war with the Seanchan but only consulted. They are not the main driving force behind it. And even her granddaughter who is a decidedly unpleasant character was not the one who suggested tricking the queen of Andor.

"Is this tight?" Hehyal asked as they walked, their spears surrounding them to keep away prying ears.

Oncala started. "It was your plan." He nodded, frowning.

so the idea was Heyahl's not Oncala's. and in any case, the main mistake was deciding to go to war with the Seanchan in the first place. everything was going to go downhill from there no matter what. The other nations would join the war sooner or later and it would snowball from there.

 

the main lesson of the visions is that the Aiel need to change as a people, not that just Avi needs to change or that she needs to perfect her parenting skills.

 

Well really Heyahl seems very uncertain it that quote. I think if Oncala had said straight out, "No, this is not the Aiel way. We shouldn't be doing this" he would have decided against it. Also the way the Aiel "consult" Aviendha's line in general, I think they could have stopped the trouble between their people and the Seanchan if they had really wanted to, or at least they might have stopped it getting quite so bad.

[herid]

Both cultures needs to change because they both show an inability to understand and accept different cultures, and an intolerence of any ideas that differ from their own. There are many Aiel we see who are not like this, but Aviendha herself is a prime example, so it would not be surprising to me if her children did bring about the downfall of the Aiel. I think it would make a big different to the whole situation even if Aviendha was the only one to change her outlook.

I agree with most of what you say but I think it's unfair to blame Aviendha's descendants for what happened to the Aiel in her visions. her children are consulted about going to war with the Seanchan but only consulted. They are not the main driving force behind it. And even her granddaughter who is a decidedly unpleasant character was not the one who suggested tricking the queen of Andor.

"Is this tight?" Hehyal asked as they walked, their spears surrounding them to keep away prying ears.

Oncala started. "It was your plan." He nodded, frowning.

so the idea was Heyahl's not Oncala's. and in any case, the main mistake was deciding to go to war with the Seanchan in the first place. everything was going to go downhill from there no matter what. The other nations would join the war sooner or later and it would snowball from there.

 

the main lesson of the visions is that the Aiel need to change as a people, not that just Avi needs to change or that she needs to perfect her parenting skills.

 

Well really Heyahl seems very uncertain it that quote. I think if Oncala had said straight out, "No, this is not the Aiel way. We shouldn't be doing this" he would have decided against it.

maybe but maybe he would do it in the end anyway when he is desperate enough. The original idea is his.

 

Also the way the Aiel "consult" Aviendha's line in general, I think they could have stopped the trouble between their people and the Seanchan if they had really wanted to, or at least they might have stopped it getting quite so bad.

but Avi's kids are not the decision makers nor are they the main proponents of the idea. It's completely unfair to pin all (or even most of) the blame on them. The same decision would have been reached if they were not around at all. who would be responsible then?

As i said, the main point here is that the Aiel need to change as a people, not that Avi didn't raise her kids right.

[Lord D]

Putting all the blame for the conflict with the Seanchan on the Aiel is also wrong. The Seanchan have a dreadful culture, and they certainly need to change a great deal for any lasting peace to happen.

[herid]

Putting all the blame for the conflict with the Seanchan on the Aiel is also wrong. The Seanchan have a dreadful culture, and they certainly need to change a great deal for any lasting peace to happen.

yes, this is true and both the Seanchan and the Aiel need to change. But I was discussing Avi's visions above and they deal with the Aiel part only.

[chinnma]

Regarding the "remnant of a remnant" I was under the impression that the first remnant happened when Rand revealed the history of the Aiel (those that did not join the Shiado or get taken by the Bleakness), and the seccond remnant will be those that survive TG.

[Arc]

I for one welcome our new Seanchan overlords.

 

yes, all Hail the Empress may she live forever.

 

Since I secretly hope the female half of the source might get tainted at TG (won't happen though), I see no reason to resist their conquest.

I do think Damane/AS will become obsolete anyway (or at least for an age to come), by taint or technology. When the Seanchan attacked the hold in the waste (one of Avi's visions), there were no Damane, something I find odd, since with a Damane the job would be done clean and quick.

[Nooska]

Putting all the blame for the conflict with the Seanchan on the Aiel is also wrong. The Seanchan have a dreadful culture, and they certainly need to change a great deal for any lasting peace to happen.

That is absolute nonsense.

Regardless of the pros or cons of the Seanchan culture, they have been shown to be an honorable people throughout the series - it isn't relevant that they have ideals and values that are very foreign to most modern people - and they are shown in the books (teh vision, the veracity of which is confirmed by itself as it is self perpetuating, regardless of whether it is a true vision, prophecy or warning) as they did not initiate any aggression whatsoever untill the other nations broke the peace through Aiel subterfuge.

Irrespective of how reprehensible their ways seem to any of us, there is no basis for assuming or postulating that they would eventually break the accord they agreed to, quite the contrary.

[mbuehner]

Putting all the blame for the conflict with the Seanchan on the Aiel is also wrong. The Seanchan have a dreadful culture, and they certainly need to change a great deal for any lasting peace to happen.

That is absolute nonsense.

Regardless of the pros or cons of the Seanchan culture, they have been shown to be an honorable people throughout the series - it isn't relevant that they have ideals and values that are very foreign to most modern people - and they are shown in the books (teh vision, the veracity of which is confirmed by itself as it is self perpetuating, regardless of whether it is a true vision, prophecy or warning) as they did not initiate any aggression whatsoever untill the other nations broke the peace through Aiel subterfuge.

Irrespective of how reprehensible their ways seem to any of us, there is no basis for assuming or postulating that they would eventually break the accord they agreed to, quite the contrary.

 

Is kidnapping and enslaving elders from another people not a cause for war?

[capuga]

Putting all the blame for the conflict with the Seanchan on the Aiel is also wrong. The Seanchan have a dreadful culture, and they certainly need to change a great deal for any lasting peace to happen.

That is absolute nonsense.

Regardless of the pros or cons of the Seanchan culture, they have been shown to be an honorable people throughout the series - it isn't relevant that they have ideals and values that are very foreign to most modern people - and they are shown in the books (teh vision, the veracity of which is confirmed by itself as it is self perpetuating, regardless of whether it is a true vision, prophecy or warning) as they did not initiate any aggression whatsoever untill the other nations broke the peace through Aiel subterfuge.

Irrespective of how reprehensible their ways seem to any of us, there is no basis for assuming or postulating that they would eventually break the accord they agreed to, quite the contrary.

 

They have also been shown to be a culture that believes all countries should be a part of the Seanchan empire. Its hard to believe that they wouldn't eventually look to consolidate all the lands. Not to mention that the non-release of Aiel citizens (the Wise One damanes) is an act of war/aggression even if they are not explictly attacking the Aiel.

[Terez]

They have also been shown to be a culture that believes all countries should be a part of the Seanchan empire. Its hard to believe that they wouldn't eventually look to consolidate all the lands.

I believe this will happen soon rather than late - as in, before the end of AMOL. There were a lot of signs pointing to it before TOM, and Aviendha's vision makes it even stronger IMO. The best way to keep peace is just to give Tuon what she wants, but they'll have to get the freedom of the damane and da'covale in return or no one will go for it. Without the slavery thing, the Seanchan aren't so bad. A little weird, but not bad.

[capuga]

They have also been shown to be a culture that believes all countries should be a part of the Seanchan empire. Its hard to believe that they wouldn't eventually look to consolidate all the lands.

I believe this will happen soon rather than late - as in, before the end of AMOL. There were a lot of signs pointing to it before TOM, and Aviendha's vision makes it even stronger IMO. The best way to keep peace is just to give Tuon what she wants, but they'll have to get the freedom of the damane and da'covale in return or no one will go for it. Without the slavery thing, the Seanchan aren't so bad. A little weird, but not bad.

 

I could get behind that. The damane (especially) and the slavery are my only real problems with the Seanchan.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Putting all the blame for the conflict with the Seanchan on the Aiel is also wrong. The Seanchan have a dreadful culture, and they certainly need to change a great deal for any lasting peace to happen.

That is absolute nonsense.

Regardless of the pros or cons of the Seanchan culture, they have been shown to be an honorable people throughout the series - it isn't relevant that they have ideals and values that are very foreign to most modern people - and they are shown in the books (teh vision, the veracity of which is confirmed by itself as it is self perpetuating, regardless of whether it is a true vision, prophecy or warning) as they did not initiate any aggression whatsoever untill the other nations broke the peace through Aiel subterfuge.

Irrespective of how reprehensible their ways seem to any of us, there is no basis for assuming or postulating that they would eventually break the accord they agreed to, quite the contrary.

 

Keeping Aiel as damane, as slaves, constitutes as grounds for war in my book. And while it isn't the only reason for the start of the war, it's a major one.

[Terez]

But was the war worth the cost? It was probably foolishness to believe that the Seanchan would ever let a damane go...and you don't see any of the other nations going to war over theirs who were captured. It was foolishness - and Padra's POV makes it clear enough that the Aiel went to war mostly out of 1) boredom, and 2) the idea that the Aiel were less honorable because they had no one to fight. They longed for the glory days of their elders.

[b3arz3rg3r]

But was the war worth the cost? It was probably foolishness to believe that the Seanchan would ever let a damane go...and you don't see any of the other nations going to war over theirs who were captured. It was foolishness - and Padra's POV makes it clear enough that the Aiel went to war mostly out of 1) boredom, and 2) the idea that the Aiel were less honorable because they had no one to fight. They longed for the glory days of their elders.

 

I don't think there is hardly any war worth the cost. And sadly most wars are also started in some way by foolishness. Fighting for the freedom of your people is probably the only good reason to start a war. All the ideological and economic reasons are bad ones.

 

The Aiel are certainly responsible for the war, but so are the Seanchan. They kept those Aiel enslaved for twenty years or more in Padra's POV, add to that them sending armed patrols in Aiel territory and it becomes more than obvious. They were intentionally provoking the Aiel.

[Terez]

More likely, they were keeping an eye on the most hostile force outside their borders for obvious reasons. The Aiel damane weren't any different to them than other damane.

[Nooska]

Putting all the blame for the conflict with the Seanchan on the Aiel is also wrong. The Seanchan have a dreadful culture, and they certainly need to change a great deal for any lasting peace to happen.

That is absolute nonsense.

Regardless of the pros or cons of the Seanchan culture, they have been shown to be an honorable people throughout the series - it isn't relevant that they have ideals and values that are very foreign to most modern people - and they are shown in the books (teh vision, the veracity of which is confirmed by itself as it is self perpetuating, regardless of whether it is a true vision, prophecy or warning) as they did not initiate any aggression whatsoever untill the other nations broke the peace through Aiel subterfuge.

Irrespective of how reprehensible their ways seem to any of us, there is no basis for assuming or postulating that they would eventually break the accord they agreed to, quite the contrary.

 

Keeping Aiel as damane, as slaves, constitutes as grounds for war in my book. And while it isn't the only reason for the start of the war, it's a major one.

That isn't what I was commenting on. In Avi's visions the Aiel wer enot part of the Dragon's Peace and were warring or skirmishing with the Seanchan on and off, but the seanchan kept the peace with everyone else. Lord D claims the seanchan "need to change a great deal for any lasting peace" - the way the Seanchan are right now are good for lasting peace according to what we have seen in the books. The speculations of posters (biased towards emancipatory and modern views) are irrelevant to whether a lasting peace can be kept with the Seanchan before a "great deal of change".

 

In the books, it is quite clear that an agreement made is kept. If Tuon negotiates an indefinite peace with Rand on behalf of the other randland countries, nothing from the books supprt that the Seanchan (under Tuon or a successor) will break that without casus belli - which in Avi's visions arose from Andor entering the war, thus breaking the treaty, and other nations being drawn in after that.

 

Anyway, the keeping of Damane or other kinds of slaves, regardless of origin, is not "cause for war" if a peace is negotiated (and the terms kept) - regardless of how emancipation has worked in the real world - and claiming it to be "cause of war" in the fictional world because it is morally reprehensible for some posters (I am not inclined to include all posters and readers as I have absolutely nothing to base such a generalization on, regardless of the obvious consensus) borders on willful stupidity - realworld realities have no bearing on in-universe reasoning*, and if a poster claims thus, there is a serious need of seperation from the material (like chanting "it is just a book" ;-) ).

 

*Excepting areas where the understanding of the in-universe functionings are presented in a way that requires us to use real world knowledge - like "what is a horse" or "what does this title mean" (where said title has a realworld counterpart, like "Queen") - i.e. anything that isn't explained in-universe because we as readers are assumed to be familiar with the concept. The Seanchan property workings do not fall under this eception as we have no real world corrolary that we can immediately draw upon - and I will not start listing and discussing HOW it works, that has been covered quite extensively, with lots of indignation as well in other threads.

[capuga]

Putting all the blame for the conflict with the Seanchan on the Aiel is also wrong. The Seanchan have a dreadful culture, and they certainly need to change a great deal for any lasting peace to happen.

That is absolute nonsense.

Regardless of the pros or cons of the Seanchan culture, they have been shown to be an honorable people throughout the series - it isn't relevant that they have ideals and values that are very foreign to most modern people - and they are shown in the books (teh vision, the veracity of which is confirmed by itself as it is self perpetuating, regardless of whether it is a true vision, prophecy or warning) as they did not initiate any aggression whatsoever untill the other nations broke the peace through Aiel subterfuge.

Irrespective of how reprehensible their ways seem to any of us, there is no basis for assuming or postulating that they would eventually break the accord they agreed to, quite the contrary.

 

Keeping Aiel as damane, as slaves, constitutes as grounds for war in my book. And while it isn't the only reason for the start of the war, it's a major one.

That isn't what I was commenting on. In Avi's visions the Aiel wer enot part of the Dragon's Peace and were warring or skirmishing with the Seanchan on and off, but the seanchan kept the peace with everyone else. Lord D claims the seanchan "need to change a great deal for any lasting peace" - the way the Seanchan are right now are good for lasting peace according to what we have seen in the books. The speculations of posters (biased towards emancipatory and modern views) are irrelevant to whether a lasting peace can be kept with the Seanchan before a "great deal of change".

 

In the books, it is quite clear that an agreement made is kept. If Tuon negotiates an indefinite peace with Rand on behalf of the other randland countries, nothing from the books supprt that the Seanchan (under Tuon or a successor) will break that without casus belli - which in Avi's visions arose from Andor entering the war, thus breaking the treaty, and other nations being drawn in after that.

 

Anyway, the keeping of Damane or other kinds of slaves, regardless of origin, is not "cause for war" if a peace is negotiated (and the terms kept) - regardless of how emancipation has worked in the real world - and claiming it to be "cause of war" in the fictional world because it is morally reprehensible for some posters (I am not inclined to include all posters and readers as I have absolutely nothing to base such a generalization on, regardless of the obvious consensus) borders on willful stupidity - realworld realities have no bearing on in-universe reasoning*, and if a poster claims thus, there is a serious need of seperation from the material (like chanting "it is just a book" ;-) ).

 

*Excepting areas where the understanding of the in-universe functionings are presented in a way that requires us to use real world knowledge - like "what is a horse" or "what does this title mean" (where said title has a realworld counterpart, like "Queen") - i.e. anything that isn't explained in-universe because we as readers are assumed to be familiar with the concept. The Seanchan property workings do not fall under this eception as we have no real world corrolary that we can immediately draw upon - and I will not start listing and discussing HOW it works, that has been covered quite extensively, with lots of indignation as well in other threads.

 

And in the books the Aiel clearly see that the keeping of their channelers as damane as an act of aggression. Even if you disagree with the Aiel, this portion of the Seanchan culture is an agitator and lasting peace is unlikely to be kept if they do not change that portion of their culture.

 

And that does nothing to address the fact that we do have plenty of in book evidence to suggest that the Seanchan are a conquering empire that will very likely want to consolidate all lands under their rule. That has been their M.O. since Luthair sailed across the seas a 1000 years ago.

 

So yes, the Seanchan will likely have to make some changes as well if there is to be long term peace.

[Diederichos]

Except here's the thing, the SEanchan showed no signs of actually attacking any other nation. I mean, we have a proof the Seanchan would not have broken the peace even under a ruler that isn't as good as Tuon. Will the Seanchan culture have to change, yes, was the Aiel's destruction their own fault and only their own fault? Everything we have read points to that.

[Lord D]

Except here's the thing, the SEanchan showed no signs of actually attacking any other nation. I mean, we have a proof the Seanchan would not have broken the peace even under a ruler that isn't as good as Tuon. Will the Seanchan culture have to change, yes, was the Aiel's destruction their own fault and only their own fault? Everything we have read points to that.

Yes, the Aiel were at fault for their destruction. However, do people SERIOUSLY believe that if the Aiel hadn't attacked, the Seanchan would have been forever satisfied with their area? Eventually, the Seanchan would get an Emperor/Empress who wouldn't want to honour the agreement. Rather than an outright attack, that ruler would deliberately provoke other people into attacking, so as to justify the Seanchan reprisals. In fact, this would seem to be what happens in Avi's vision, with the Seanchan deliberately provoking the Aiel by having patrols go very close to the Aiel.

[b3arz3rg3r]

More likely, they were keeping an eye on the most hostile force outside their borders for obvious reasons. The Aiel damane weren't any different to them than other damane.

 

Which is still provokation if you think about it. How would any country in the world react if foreign soldiers started patrolling within its borders without invitation? That they don't see Aiel slaves as any different from their other slaves doesn't matter. They know that the Aiel see them differently. The Seanchan were either spoiling for a fight or they were completely brainless. And I don't think the latter is likely.