Far Madding Irritates Me

[Morsker]

You're looking at this from an Earth perspective where various patriarchal religions have usurped the previous matriarchal societies. In a world that hasn't been subjected to things such as witch hunts it's more likely that women will have stronger roles in society.

Margaret Murray's "theory" about the witch hunts being used to wipe out a pagan matriarchy was either outright fabricated or horribly pathological science. I assume you cited it without knowing any better, but it's not true. The worst thing about the theory is that it brings shame on both feminism and anthropology. It's best put behind us.

 

edit: Regarding the thread topic, I've always found Far Madding silly. As readers, we spend so much time around the female-exclusive society of Aes Sedai that anything RJ might've wanted to explore by adding another matriarchal society is hard to appreciate because it's a topic the series is already saturated with. Maybe in the 1940s the feminism would be novel, but in the 1990s+ it's just more of the same. I also grant the OP's economic argument. The social causes of Aes Sedai matriarchy make a lot of sense, but we aren't really given an explanation for Far Madding. That further makes the whole escapade there purposeless to me. What's the point of creating a fictional society if we aren't going to explore how it happened?

[yoniy0]

Escuse me, but why doesn't anyone ask when and why the Domani started trading? Or why a relatively cold land like Arad Doman is home to the finest breed of Horses in Randland?

 

The point is world-building. Not every corner of the globe can be examined in a series like this, but just knowing it's there adds depth to the story (not to mention, Rand needed to be utterly defenseless there, and the local culture definitely contributed to that).

[Didgya]

Don't forget , Far Madding isn't some isolated backwater where people don't see outside influences.

 

This is important- it HASN'T evolved in a bubble. If it had, then the matriarchy would have made less sense. It is a tiny speck surrounded by the expanse of Randland. And as everything surrounding it is, somewhat logically, matriarchal/misandrous, it bears reason that this somewhat insignificant town would NOT buck the trend.

While the lessened reliance on physical strength makes Randland more egalitarian gender-wise, it is the extreme stigma in the current age, that is the reason that it is a misandrous society. And those overarching perceptions, backed by the weight of history, could quite easily overrun a place like Far Madding.

That is my reasoning as to why it should be less matriarchal; but I don't quite think there is any need to have made it seemingly MORE misandrous than everywhere else. Not just on a political level, but permeating to the social level as well.

 

RJ would not have made Far Madding so different without some reason. Whether these reasons justify the current state is your own opinion. But consider the presence of the Guardian as evidence that the people of Far Madding are prejudiced specifically against male channelers (with good reason).

 

Now, of the four historical False Dragons who could channel, Raolin Darksbane, Yurian Stonebow, Davian, and Guaire Amalasan, Raolin Darksbane and Yurian Stonebow were born in Far Madding (or rather its precursors) and went on to terrorize much of Randland. This may have a caused a general mistrust of men from where they arose. It also didn't help that the most recent of the four, Guaire Amalasan, lay seige to and took Far Madding despite the presence of the Guardian.

 

In other words, male channelers are bad. And any male can potentially be a male channeler. In Far Madding, it's personal.

 

I agree with Dream on this one. I see the resoning for most of the posts. Yet I think that Far Madding fits in with the logic in the WOT only it is illogical in our culture. I think that the female dominated society in WOT, sets it apart from alot of fantasy literature (which seems male dominated, generally).

Jumping points.

Far Madding's bias against men is much like the Red Ajah's, men suck, channeling or not

[herid]

Escuse me, but why doesn't anyone ask when and why the Domani started trading? Or why a relatively cold land like Arad Doman is home to the finest breed of Horses in Randland?

 

 

Or how the illuminators managed to keep gun powder secret for 3 thousand years. or why tribal people like the Aiel refuse to ride horses. I agree with the thread starter that matriarchy in Far Madding is silly. they don't have magic and given the level of civilization they have to rely on conventional military. in such situation male dominance is inevitable. But really, this is a minor gripe IMO. Jordan created a hugely rich world which is amazingly realistic all things considered. I'm willing to forgive a few minor details that don't make perfect sense.

[anotherfingolfin]

Escuse me, but why doesn't anyone ask when and why the Domani started trading? Or why a relatively cold land like Arad Doman is home to the finest breed of Horses in Randland?

or why tribal people like the Aiel refuse to ride horses.

 

Trade is the basis of any commerce, and integral to any somewhat developed economy. And Arad Doman is coastal, and even a cursory glance at history will show the relation between that and trade.

Horses evolved in cooler, steppe-like climes. The more tropical the clime, the worse for horses.

Could be that in the less-than-bountiful desert of the waste, horses, who require a good amount of food and water, don't thrive, or even if they could, it would still be an unneccessary luxury?

 

On a broader note, ok, the Far Madding question is pretty insignificant, but I don't think these boards have ever been accused of discussing only the most significant of things, have we? :/ Plus, if the world building appeals to you, a (percieved) inconsistency is a fairly valid gripe, imho.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Escuse me, but why doesn't anyone ask when and why the Domani started trading? Or why a relatively cold land like Arad Doman is home to the finest breed of Horses in Randland?

or why tribal people like the Aiel refuse to ride horses.

 

Trade is the basis of any commerce, and integral to any somewhat developed economy. And Arad Doman is coastal, and even a cursory glance at history will show the relation between that and trade.

Horses evolved in cooler, steppe-like climes. The more tropical the clime, the worse for horses.

Could be that in the less-than-bountiful desert of the waste, horses, who require a good amount of food and water, don't thrive, or even if they could, it would still be an unneccessary luxury?

 

On a broader note, ok, the Far Madding question is pretty insignificant, but I don't think these boards have ever been accused of discussing only the most significant of things, have we? :/ Plus, if the world building appeals to you, a (percieved) inconsistency is a fairly valid gripe, imho.

 

 

Listen to this guy! More tropical the clime, the worse for horses...Look up Arabians there chief, learn something eh?

[Suttree]

Escuse me, but why doesn't anyone ask when and why the Domani started trading? Or why a relatively cold land like Arad Doman is home to the finest breed of Horses in Randland?

or why tribal people like the Aiel refuse to ride horses.

 

Trade is the basis of any commerce, and integral to any somewhat developed economy. And Arad Doman is coastal, and even a cursory glance at history will show the relation between that and trade.

Horses evolved in cooler, steppe-like climes. The more tropical the clime, the worse for horses.

Could be that in the less-than-bountiful desert of the waste, horses, who require a good amount of food and water, don't thrive, or even if they could, it would still be an unneccessary luxury?

 

On a broader note, ok, the Far Madding question is pretty insignificant, but I don't think these boards have ever been accused of discussing only the most significant of things, have we? :/ Plus, if the world building appeals to you, a (percieved) inconsistency is a fairly valid gripe, imho.

 

 

Listen to this guy! More tropical the clime, the worse for horses...Look up Arabians there chief, learn something eh?

 

Arabians were developed in a desert climate but yeah, the point still fits.

[randsc]

Escuse me, but why doesn't anyone ask when and why the Domani started trading? Or why a relatively cold land like Arad Doman is home to the finest breed of Horses in Randland?

or why tribal people like the Aiel refuse to ride horses.

 

Trade is the basis of any commerce, and integral to any somewhat developed economy. And Arad Doman is coastal, and even a cursory glance at history will show the relation between that and trade.

Horses evolved in cooler, steppe-like climes. The more tropical the clime, the worse for horses.

Could be that in the less-than-bountiful desert of the waste, horses, who require a good amount of food and water, don't thrive, or even if they could, it would still be an unneccessary luxury?

 

On a broader note, ok, the Far Madding question is pretty insignificant, but I don't think these boards have ever been accused of discussing only the most significant of things, have we? :/ Plus, if the world building appeals to you, a (percieved) inconsistency is a fairly valid gripe, imho.

 

 

Listen to this guy! More tropical the clime, the worse for horses...Look up Arabians there chief, learn something eh?

 

He's right. Horses don't do well in tropical climates.

[yoniy0]

Horses evolved in cooler, steppe-like climes. The more tropical the clime, the worse for horses.

He's right. Horses don't do well in tropical climates.

Yeah, I'm willing to accept it, since I know nothing of raising horses. But then my question becomes - why is Tear best known for their horses (besides the Razors, the best horses are said to be from Tear, right?)?

My point wasn't that there are other inconsistencies in Jordan's world-building. It was the opposite - sometimes things evolve a certain way simply because they do. Inertia is much more powerful than you give it credit for. One can't simply pick certain factors and infer which culture properties are most likely in a society - instead one has to consider the way that society evolved. Matriarchies make sense in a post Breaking world (at least, they do to me), and having that many False Dragons originate from Far Madding would probably only strengthen their belief that men has to be properly controlled. Of course there are other factors at play, and indeed most of Randland reached an equilibrium between the sexes, but it's not surprising to me that it didn't happen everywhere.

[randsc]

One is left to wonder, how many of those False Dragons were the result of 1. the matriarchy or 2. The Guardian.

 

Does the presence of the Guardian make it make it more likely that a male channeler makes it to adulthood? Does the presence of an oppressive matriarchy drive men to rebellion?

 

Unlike the existence of a matriarchy in Far Madding, I don't find the notion that False Dragons spring up in Far Madding illogical at all.

[yoniy0]

One is left to wonder, how many of those False Dragons were the result of 1. the matriarchy or 2. The Guardian.

I wholeheartedly agree, but you can't expect them to see it that way.

[anotherfingolfin]

Escuse me, but why doesn't anyone ask when and why the Domani started trading? Or why a relatively cold land like Arad Doman is home to the finest breed of Horses in Randland?

or why tribal people like the Aiel refuse to ride horses.

 

Trade is the basis of any commerce, and integral to any somewhat developed economy. And Arad Doman is coastal, and even a cursory glance at history will show the relation between that and trade.

Horses evolved in cooler, steppe-like climes. The more tropical the clime, the worse for horses.

Could be that in the less-than-bountiful desert of the waste, horses, who require a good amount of food and water, don't thrive, or even if they could, it would still be an unneccessary luxury?

 

On a broader note, ok, the Far Madding question is pretty insignificant, but I don't think these boards have ever been accused of discussing only the most significant of things, have we? :/ Plus, if the world building appeals to you, a (percieved) inconsistency is a fairly valid gripe, imho.

 

 

Listen to this guy! More tropical the clime, the worse for horses...Look up Arabians there chief, learn something eh?

 

Thank you for pointing out the most prominent exception to a general trend, and in the process, missing the point being made. Also, for future reference, most of the Arabian peninsula is not in the tropics, nor does it have tropical climate.

Learn something, eh?

[Ashandarei]

One is left to wonder, how many of those False Dragons were the result of 1. the matriarchy or 2. The Guardian.

 

Does the presence of the Guardian make it make it more likely that a male channeler makes it to adulthood? Does the presence of an oppressive matriarchy drive men to rebellion?

 

Unlike the existence of a matriarchy in Far Madding, I don't find the notion that False Dragons spring up in Far Madding illogical at all.

 

Both great points. Nobody seems to question the the cause and effect there: False Dragons -> Matriarchy or Matriarchy -> False Dragons?

Adding the Guardian in makes things even more fun: Guardian -> Matriarchy, Guardian -> False Dragons?

And the circle is complete when you include the fact that False DR's are male channelers which were why the Guardian was built in the first place: Guardian -> Matriarchy -> False DR's/Male Channelers -> Guardian

 

Some faulty logic in there, but it was fun anyway.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Escuse me, but why doesn't anyone ask when and why the Domani started trading? Or why a relatively cold land like Arad Doman is home to the finest breed of Horses in Randland?

or why tribal people like the Aiel refuse to ride horses.

 

Trade is the basis of any commerce, and integral to any somewhat developed economy. And Arad Doman is coastal, and even a cursory glance at history will show the relation between that and trade.

Horses evolved in cooler, steppe-like climes. The more tropical the clime, the worse for horses.

Could be that in the less-than-bountiful desert of the waste, horses, who require a good amount of food and water, don't thrive, or even if they could, it would still be an unneccessary luxury?

 

On a broader note, ok, the Far Madding question is pretty insignificant, but I don't think these boards have ever been accused of discussing only the most significant of things, have we? :/ Plus, if the world building appeals to you, a (percieved) inconsistency is a fairly valid gripe, imho.

 

 

Listen to this guy! More tropical the clime, the worse for horses...Look up Arabians there chief, learn something eh?

 

Thank you for pointing out the most prominent exception to a general trend, and in the process, missing the point being made. Also, for future reference, most of the Arabian peninsula is not in the tropics, nor does it have tropical climate.

Learn something, eh?

 

 

Really, the Arabian peninsula isn't in the tropics?

 

*pulls out map

 

Hey look! Half if not more of said peninsula's below the Tropic of Cancer & above the Equator. including the areas of southern Saudi, all of Yemen...I'm sure it's just coincidence that's exactly the area of origin for Arabian horses. It's literally in the tropics.

 

It doesn't have a tropical climate though, it's arid and desert...dry and hot. Gee, and the acknowledged as the most recognizable horse breed in the world comes from a DESERT??

 

Wow, you're totally right. Clearly I was mistaken and woe up on my soul for thinking horses evolved in cooler stepp- oh wait, dude that was you

 

*single tear

[randsc]

You can be as snottily sarcastic as you want. He's still right, and you're still wrong. Horses first appeared, and were first domesticated, on the steppes of Central Asia.

 

And the Arabian peninsula does not have a tropical climate.

[yoniy0]

That's enough @Mat's Spare Hat. If you want to be here on DM, you'll have to learn to play nice with others.

[Mats Spare Hat]

You can be as snottily sarcastic as you want. He's still right, and you're still wrong. Horses first appeared, and were first domesticated, on the steppes of Central Asia.

 

And the Arabian peninsula does not have a tropical climate.

 

Horses first appeared in North America, and spread first to South America, 8000 years prior to their disputed domestication in central asia(around 5000 b.c.) as you noted. Note: I'm not using the word 'disputed' to be an ass - The first domestication of the horse is genuinely disputed.

 

As for Arabian climates, granted a whole lot of it is arid. You do know it's at or above 85% humidity year round on the coasts right? Ever been to Jeddah?

 

All that being said, the original statement implied that horses don't do well in tropical climes, that the more tropical it is, the worse for the horse. This is not true. A testament to how false that statement is can be seen in how prolific, treasured, and craved for as both stud and mare Arabian bloodlines are across the world, in the blood of almost every modern breed of riding horse. If a horse couldn't do so well evolving in the tropics, how would it have become so popular, recognized, lauded and championed around the globe?

 

Even in WoT, you see how valuable and treasured Tairen bloodstock is, and Tear's always noted to be ridiculously humid, hot and sweaty!

 

Horses do just fine, even great in tropical climes, some of the best horses in the real world, and in WoT, come from places that are either in the tropics, or have tropical climates.

[randsc]

Tear isn't humid. It's horse herds are raised on the plains north of the city, in a decidedly non-tropical environment.

 

The point remains: The historical record in no way justifies your snotty and condescending reply to the other poster.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Tear isn't humid. It's horse herds are raised on the plains north of the city, in a decidedly non-tropical environment.

 

The point remains: The historical record in no way justifies your snotty and condescending reply to the other poster.

 

[Removed]

[yoniy0]

Okay, I think we've all said all that we could on the issue. If anyone has a new point to make, by all means. Please don't rehash arguments already made, though, as it's clear you're not getting to the other side.

 

And remain respectful of other people. We can't enjoy ourselves if people make a habit of insulting one another, which is why I'll lock this thread if you keep doing that (also, disrespectful comments have earned their poster a temp ban in the past).

[Byzantine279]

I don't see why a female dominate culture is all that strange. Just because it isn't the norm in our society doesn't prevent it from becoming the norm in a different society, especially given the environment that the culture was formed in. From Rand's comments Far Madding was ruled by a man when the war of the power began, one can only assume that during the breaking the guardian was somehow destroyed (The current one is NOT the original one) and the leader at the time likely took the blame. After that it would only be natural for the people who were cowering there (and it would be cowering, hoping some insane channeler didn't come down with an angreal or sa'angreal and destroy the city's guardian) to elect women to power. And once a tradition has started it can be very very hard to break, especially if the oppressed group just doesn't seem to care (and the men in Far Madding seem to accept their position perfectly).

[garion]

one can only assume that during the breaking the guardian was somehow destroyed (The current one is NOT the original one) and the leader at the time likely took the blame

Not that I don't believe you but where was it stated that this wasn't the original Guardian. GO PACK GO!

[Suttree]

One is left to wonder, how many of those False Dragons were the result of 1. the matriarchy or 2. The Guardian.

 

Does the presence of the Guardian make it make it more likely that a male channeler makes it to adulthood? Does the presence of an oppressive matriarchy drive men to rebellion?

 

Unlike the existence of a matriarchy in Far Madding, I don't find the notion that False Dragons spring up in Far Madding illogical at all.

 

Much more interesting topic than the finer points of horse breeding. Hadn't thought of it in those terms before but it makes quite a bit of sense. Especially for those with the spark.

[anotherfingolfin]

And once a tradition has started it can be very very hard to break, especially if the oppressed group just doesn't seem to care (and the men in Far Madding seem to accept their position perfectly).

 

This is what it hinges on, I guess. Once the oppressed accepts the oppression, nothing is going to change.

I think the matriarchical leanings of FM are pretty well-founded. As far as politics goes. I just find social aspects like the male-bashing (literally) a little far-fetched (though not entirely implausible).

[Byzantine279]

one can only assume that during the breaking the guardian was somehow destroyed (The current one is NOT the original one) and the leader at the time likely took the blame

Not that I don't believe you but where was it stated that this wasn't the original Guardian. GO PACK GO!

 

 

It was never directly stated, but it can be inferred from when Rand said "The Guardians are newer..." That seems to imply that the last one was destroyed or otherwise rendered inoperable somehow. With the Chaos of the breaking it makes sense that it was destroyed.